This is going to be Hilarious :D
This is going to be Hilarious :D
Yup! :lol:
Good lord Falc, you have no idea of the depths of my pity for you and your team right now.
I predict the channel will mostly be AFK monitoring for when devs show up; the lack of moderation will likely make it an awful place for a good number of people.Still having night terrors about the Sphere, are we Silas?
Could certainly be wildly successful though.
I predict the channel will mostly be AFK monitoring for when devs show up; the lack of moderation will likely make it an awful place for a good number of people.Still having night terrors about the Sphere, are we Silas?
Could certainly be wildly successful though.
This is going to be Hilarious :D
Yup! :lol:
Good lord Falc, you have no idea of the depths of my pity for you and your team right now.
I mailed him to express my sadness for the 10x amount of paperwork and report flags that will be coming the way of the GM's now.
(http://cdn.meme.li/i/ol2ch.jpg)
CCP Falcon > I couldn't care less if people want to mess with this channel
CCP Falcon > I couldn't care less if people want to mess with this channel
CCP Falcon > I couldn't care less if people want to mess with this channel
See that is a very bad thing :lol:
Though I am curious on just how many complained about the OOC/Summit moderation to CCP. :roll:
It'll be a rather interesting development
I wish ccp every success with the Intergalactic Summit and Out Of Character channels. Whining about how this new channel is going to suck isn't going to help anyone, and it'll just make what you say happen.
The new channel isn't the issue, the 'actors never appearing in player channels' by actors is the frustrating part.Fun fact: they were never supposed to appear in player-run channels to begin with. What you're seeing now isn't just a response to players complaining about biased moderation, it's CCP actually enforcing its own rules for live event actors properly.
IE if these butthurt people can't participate due to their countless (and I mean countless) examples of them alienating 99% of the RP community and constantly shitting up everything around them, then NO ONE CAN.
The new channel isn't the issue, the 'actors never appearing in player channels' by actors is the frustrating part.Fun fact: they were never supposed to appear in player-run channels to begin with. What you're seeing now isn't just a response to players complaining about biased moderation, it's CCP actually enforcing its own rules for live event actors properly.
IE if these butthurt people can't participate due to their countless (and I mean countless) examples of them alienating 99% of the RP community and constantly shitting up everything around them, then NO ONE CAN.
That's all super and dandy, it's just the butthurt motivations behind it by certain people that are pathetic is all.But they shouldn't be happening in player-run locations in the first place. That's the whole point.
I understand and accept completely the possible need for a ccp-run destination for live events, actors, etc.
I strongly disagree with the complaints of a few people removing these things from ever happening from other player run locations.
That's all super and dandy, it's just the butthurt motivations behind it by certain people that are pathetic is all.But they shouldn't be happening in player-run locations in the first place. That's the whole point.
I understand and accept completely the possible need for a ccp-run destination for live events, actors, etc.
I strongly disagree with the complaints of a few people removing these things from ever happening from other player run locations.
Eh, shit happens. It sucks but I can't be mad about it. Why should those actors only show up in certain player channels instead of somewhere everyone can see them?
I don't seem to remember you having an issue interacting with the dev actors in my player run events? If you felt so strongly you wouldn't have been there?You don't seem to understand that my opinion is pretty much immaterial in this matter, as is yours and any other player's. CCP is now consistently enforcing its rules for where event actors appear.
However, if you're desperate to know about it...
Good to see you back to your usual tone, Ixiris! :PHere's a hint: observe which faction the preponderence of events visited by CCP actors belonged to. Then consider the reasons why this is so.
I'm sure you've got some good points to make (no sarcasm) so out with it here if you become more comfortable with it
In short, it is a self-sustaining roleplay community that CCP has only recently deigned to join in on occasionally because Falcon is an ex-Moderator at The Summit and Logibro is a former regular.
Good to see you back to your usual tone, Ixiris! :PHere's a hint: observe which faction the preponderence of events visited by CCP actors belonged to. Then consider the reasons why this is so.
I'm sure you've got some good points to make (no sarcasm) so out with it here if you become more comfortable with it
EDIT: Kat, you're misunderstanding the issue.
The problem isn't that there's now a CCP public channel for these things. The problem is that an actor is now forbidden to - IC or OOC - recognize the contributions of a segment of the RP playerbase by discussing anything with them in a private manner, even when factional loyalty would normally push them to. Upcoming plans, ongoing operations, fleet comms, thanks for aid in operations... these can no longer be given in anywhere but a "public" channel.
example of psychopathic derp
OK let's be real...one person bitching didn't cause this. Our own drama aside, just one person constantly stomping their feet didn't make CCP pull out like this.
Not saying it's anyone else's fault specifically. Just pointing out that one person does not move mountains.
OK let's be real...one person bitching didn't cause this. Our own drama aside, just one person constantly stomping their feet didn't make CCP pull out like this.
Not saying it's anyone else's fault specifically. Just pointing out that one person does not move mountains.
We can just use the block function for this person possibly?
We can just use the block function for this person possibly?
They're banned Zsaryna. It's less that they're interacting with us and more that they attacked us in a different way since they got banned.
CCP Falcon > the second is called "Intergalatic Summit" - which is exactly thatEmphasis mine. Please tell me the channel name is spelled correctly?
Not much hope there, Ché. From what I've seen, the mods in those channels are using this development as an excuse to be even less critical of their own decisions.
Good to see you back to your usual tone, Ixiris! :PHere's a hint: observe which faction the preponderence of events visited by CCP actors belonged to. Then consider the reasons why this is so.
I'm sure you've got some good points to make (no sarcasm) so out with it here if you become more comfortable with it
Good to see you back to your usual tone, Ixiris! :PHere's a hint: observe which faction the preponderence of events visited by CCP actors belonged to. Then consider the reasons why this is so.
I'm sure you've got some good points to make (no sarcasm) so out with it here if you become more comfortable with it
You going to back that up, or not ? Which faction are you implying favouritism for ?
Maybe some factions had more event actors turning up at player created events, because players of those factions made events worth turning up to ?
I'd like to see this list of event actors turning up in player channels, that is such apparently overwhelming favouritism. Go on, show your working.
Purely from my perspective,
I'd like to see this list of event actors turning up in player channels, that is such apparently overwhelming favouritism. Go on, show your working.I'm not claiming favoritism, simply saying that I have seen more Amarr/Caldari actors than Gallente/Minmatar.
Take offence if you like vOv
Here's a hint: observe which faction the preponderence of events visited by CCP actors belonged to. Then consider the reasons why this is so.My fault, should have quoted that to begin with, no offence taken or intended.
This is functionally acting like local for them : they can say if you want to interact with us (CCP), use these channels to reach us directly. No more player moderation in Live Events, OOC, etc, banning people from the channels CCP is involved in.
It's essentially open door policy due to certain people being stonewalled from CCP interaction.
We (the Sansha) are familiar with this from the pre-Incursion live events, as we heavily moderated the Sansha actor channel for intelligence security. Similarly, the anti-Sansha heavily policed their channel from us interacting with the Empire actors, etc etc.
In that capacity the channel serves a purpose, but I wouldn't use it for anything else.
I remain highly upset about the departure from any other means of communication.
When asked on whether a particular faction contact would "only" talk in the new channels, he responded that "event actors will be in Intergalactic Summit from here onward". When another person asked "no where else?" he responded that they would be in local for live events, of course. That's a pretty clear indication to me.
Though there is either a written (or unwritren) rule against 'fingerpointing' byu any definition, if poeple wanna actually figure this out and stop obfuscating, just SAY what the hell you've SEEN in regards to Actors.
Example:
There were two Actors at the PIE Event, one which stayed longer than the other.
Or is it just an imagined bias
Convince me.Why bother?
Or is it just an imagined bias, by people with grudges against the operator teams of "the summit" and other places?You've already made it perfectly clear what your opinion is.
I just don't understand why the apparent need to make the kinds of smart ass remarks he has been in several forum posts lately.
Well, when people are forced with withdraw and go a bit tough beause of work rules, theycan def. appear to be turning into "asses". This often happens if..
Yes, you said it in your own post. "I dind't know him as a player". ie.
If there is a basis of comparison, sure, someone on the clock versus being cooll and "allowed to have a biased opinion" may appear to be an "ass" at times.
This is why there is Anomnity between player and official account aliases for CCP.
If it is divined by the playerbase who Falcon was, his ID will change again and he will likely be even more cut off from people.
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/77b3686152c473e9c9da370a63845e00/tumblr_ml9ieiEv6M1rcptiao1_500.gif)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/77b3686152c473e9c9da370a63845e00/tumblr_ml9ieiEv6M1rcptiao1_500.gif)
(http://onebit.us/x/i/GrjjJA3kfK.gif)
Convince me.Why bother?Or is it just an imagined bias, by people with grudges against the operator teams of "the summit" and other places?You've already made it perfectly clear what your opinion is.
I just don't understand why the apparent need to make the kinds of smart ass remarks he has been in several forum posts lately.
This is not new. He's always been snarky. :)
I'm kinda confused.....first, when you open the default channel list on the game client, there are 2 CCP channels "content" and "live events", neither of which is used by Team illuminati. I wonder why...
Second, i understand CCP decision to remove ANY kind of misperception around who, where and when players are reached through actors......
But i'm totally baffled by the 6 pages of discussion the annoucement of CCP falcon created here on Backstage....can't we all take a wait and see approach? i'm not really happy to see a known channel turned into a graveyard because CCP actors no longer visit it.....but they are not cutting us out entirely (which has been the usual in the past).....they are just changing locations.
That's not the issue, I think most of us are super fine with an official ccp IC and OOC channel, more power to them, bring more RPers in, advertise it, etc, good luck and all that.
Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone.
This is false, not getting along with a handful of consistently shitty trolls who shit up things for just about everyone else is not a failure on our part, it's a failure on the troll's part. And the trolls bitching and whining does not make it our fault. CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.
I'm kinda confused.....first, when you open the default channel list on the game client, there are 2 CCP channels "content" and "live events", neither of which is used by Team illuminati. I wonder why...
Second, i understand CCP decision to remove ANY kind of misperception around who, where and when players are reached through actors......
But i'm totally baffled by the 6 pages of discussion the annoucement of CCP falcon created here on Backstage....can't we all take a wait and see approach? i'm not really happy to see a known channel turned into a graveyard because CCP actors no longer visit it.....but they are not cutting us out entirely (which has been the usual in the past).....they are just changing locations.
That's not the issue, I think most of us are super fine with an official ccp IC and OOC channel, more power to them, bring more RPers in, advertise it, etc, good luck and all that.
Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone.
This is false, not getting along with a handful of consistently shitty trolls who shit up things for just about everyone else is not a failure on our part, it's a failure on the troll's part. And the trolls bitching and whining does not make it our fault. CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.
Fun fact: they were never supposed to appear in player-run channels to begin with. What you're seeing now isn't just a response to players complaining about biased moderation, it's CCP actually enforcing its own rules for live event actors properly.The situation happening now is EXACTLY why rules like that should be enforced. The accusations of favoritism, the appearance of personal slights to the community, etc. are detrimental to live events. No matter what the intention, when the rules do start getting enforced, it leaves bad vibes. Especially when taking away something that people had enjoyed through no fault of their own.
CCP employees saying this is happening because of our failures is the thing we are uncomfortable with.Yes, and the wording used was not fitting with the stated goal. It really came off as an attempt to scold the moderation team in public. That, in my mind, is inappropriate.
The most positive solution would have been to just make the new channels and sayThis would have been a wonderful way to word things. Has there been an official announcement on the EVE forums about the channels? I haven't really read through all the replies here, and don't have too much time today to browse through the EVE forums.
"Intergalactic Summit and Out Of Character are where official dev IC interactions and OOC conversations will be happening in the future, stay tuned to these channels if you'd like to get involved in upcoming RP and Live events. In order to reach a larger and wider eve player base audience we will unfortunately have to be winding down a lot of the smaller and more personal RP arcs that some of you have been participants in over the last few years. While the devs take no sides in player grudges and disagreements, we owe it to all subscribers to appear not to be picking sides and will unfortunately only be appearing in character in these new channels, and will be phasing out any appearances in the player-made channels"
something to that effect
We also continue to understand and support the reality that EVE is a sandbox, and in accordance with this we will continue to support those who opt to build their own sandcastles."The thing is, for those sandcastles to truly stand on their own, they need to stand on their own.
Let me put it a more mechanical way: Every action in EVE exists because the game provides some kind of reward for it. Run missions, receive LP. Haul a freighterload of stuff 10 jumps, have supplies easily at hand. Seize sovereignty space, get ratting, moons, and stations (and possibly :gudfites:). Plan, coordinate, and lead large RP events... receive actor recognition.Actor recognition should not be the primary motivator for RP or RP events, and I don't believe there should be CCP provided "awards" for such things.
well, as moderators you have first hand experiencie dealing with trolls there......don't you guys have a little pitty over team Illuminati now?
To clarify, the image I posted was not directed at anyone in particular. I'm sorry if anyone has taken it to mean that. :cube:
My basic thoughts are, I think this has been blown out of proportion. I'm sure CCP appreciates the efforts made by the OOC and Summit moderator teams, but in an effort to appear unbiased, they have created these channels. I think a lot of it was taken out of context. I was there from the initial announcement, but maybe I'm too optimistic and have taken things too lightly?
I can understand the effort that goes into moderating a channel with that amount of people and I have friends on the moderator team so I wouldn't say anything bad about them. I just think perhaps we're assuming too much about the issue? Who knows. Only time will tell.
2 clarifications, Lasa:
One, nobody is that upset about the new channels. Something like that has been discussed before, even, and there wasn't a dramastorm about it. It's that they are cancelling all other means of interaction that is so frustrating to us.
Two, the original announcement in OOC was fairly tame, yes. I continue to suspect it was in large part a canned speech handed to Falcon by Internal Affairs. Some comments made in the new channel later on, however, were decidedly not canned and much more concerning.
Ok more.
Official staf should be immune to snark or not talk to players.
TBH if I was told by a staffr that my work was thanless and I did a hit job? Id take it personal too. Lsten to me bitch about throwing my keys on my LEad Admin Job and getting shittalked/stonewalled and not paid for 2 months of work I was owed. At that point "profssional/person" goes out the window cays IT WAS MADE PERSONAL. There was nothing professional about what was said.
If I caled you essentially, a shitty person, in front of a crownd of 50ppl, would you take if professionally?
Two, the original announcement in OOC was fairly tame, yes. I continue to suspect it was in large part a canned speech handed to Falcon by Internal Affairs. Some comments made in the new channel later on, however, were decidedly not canned and much more concerning.
Two, the original announcement in OOC was fairly tame, yes. I continue to suspect it was in large part a canned speech handed to Falcon by Internal Affairs. Some comments made in the new channel later on, however, were decidedly not canned and much more concerning.
If you have logs, post them. I think it would help peeps to see why people are up on the barricades over this. While this is quickly devolving into a he said she said pissing match that might help hold back the yellow tide, at least for a while.
Remember Lasa. You took that very personally when it happened. I wont got into details as to how.
This is what, 24hrs in?
People have the right to be UPSET, and I for one will not ay "It is your FAULT. Bo not be upset."
At leats the smokescreened you. They didn't call you a whiner/overaggerator to your face in front of a ton of ppl.
Its onething to be snarky without provocation. But reading that first postin this thread, people will essentially called favoritist assholes. Even if people did get "overzealous" by our viewpoints on certainfolks, the blame as laid on ALLL banned ppl, including the very cruel spammy shitheads that I doubt any will disagree were so
Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone.
What annoys me the most is not the personal failings of individuals, either moderators for whatever reason or Falcon for being unable to restrain himself from that kind of unprofessional remarks.
What annoys me is that personal interaction between actors and players and actor involvement with our characters was the main catalyst behind ACTIVE roleplaying, like Arek Jalaan, etc. Our characters were part of the world. By suppressing that, they get back to the old Sansha Upliftings / Colelie / Caldari Prime / etc pattern where players are just spectators and PASSIVE consumers. An old recurring complaint RPers have had against CCP since after Aurora has always been "they create the illusion that we do RP with consequences, but actually players have no way to impact on the NPC universe at all, only CCP decides and we feel totally disconnected from the world we are supposed to live in : they keep a big gap/wall between their NPC world and us."
Well then, with that new policy, we sure are going to RP with a wall.Us mod team people are displaying a high level of butthurt because the stated REASONS from this from the mouth of a ccp employee is that we are fail moderators and that our channel is shit and we ban people for no reason willy nilly and that we 'can't get along' with everyone.
Wait... he didn't say that. No need to over exaggerate. I still agree with you but still...
[ 2013.09.12 17:43:17 ] CCP Falcon > If people hadn't got buttmad and started banning people from "their channels", then we wouldn't have had to withdraw from them, and create two so that we can speak with everyone.
[ 2013.09.12 17:43:17 ] CCP Falcon > If people hadn't got buttmad and started banning people from "their channels", then we wouldn't have had to withdraw from them, and create two so that we can speak with everyone.
[ 2013.09.12 17:43:54 ] CCP Falcon > So, what will happen now, is that people can either be civil, get along nice, and act like human beings
[ 2013.09.12 17:45:32 ] CCP Falcon > What we need
[ 2013.09.12 17:46:08 ] CCP Falcon > Is a channel where we can talk to people without people being locked out of the conversation because of stupid, childish feuds between people who either can't hold their mouths or need to grow thicker skin.
[ 2013.09.12 17:46:58 ] CCP Falcon > So, if you don't want to use these channels, then don't bother, feel free to leave them. :)
stupid, childish feuds between people who either can't hold their mouths or need to grow thicker skin.My god, this is just epic PR fail. My 15 bucks can go elsewhere for the next few months without a second thought.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I got the distinct impression that we should be reading between the lines here and all is not well behind the scenes at CCP regarding staffing and resource allocation.
To be honest, both of those logs make Falcon look quite reasonable in the face of less reasonable behaviour.I don't know about the rest of you, but I got the distinct impression that we should be reading between the lines here and all is not well behind the scenes at CCP regarding staffing and resource allocation.
And yeah, this.
Well, yes. DUST 514 is a mess and almost certainly a complete flop, and CCP sunk way too much time and money into a PS3-only shooter. Eve is profitable, but so profitable that you can throw money away? Doubtful. So now they likely have to either take away resources from Eve, or bite the bullet and engage in big staff cuts of one sort or another.
CCP's sort of backed themselves into a position where they'll either need to stick their head in the sand and persist with a business model and format (PS3-only) that doesn't appear to be working to the level they were expecting it would or they'll need to make some hard decisions which might be better for both company and their games in the long term...Well, truth be told I was under the impression they'd already doubled down on the Shanghai office and DUST, and they're still trying to play cards close to their chest. It may pay out in the long run, the question is can they ante up?
a better example could be Federation day which is typically more publicly announced than PIE events and almost always incorporates in space activity. I was under the impression that was player driven.
Also my experience with Amarr and Minmatar corps is they typically don't like sharing space with the more hardcore of their rivals. Often they try to ban members at some time or another from going places where baddies lurk.
Previous Federation Days had actors turning up, this year did not. Unsure if even an ISD turned up this year.
Previous Federation Days had actors turning up, this year did not. Unsure if even an ISD turned up this year.
I think you have that backwards. There was an SOE actor there this year.
Please bear in mind that any action that may or may not be taken against any reported pilot may not be discussed with a third party.
2. Internal Affairs leaks like a sieve, giving that kind of information to the proverbial "bros" is a level of favouritism that is in itself, cause for IA investigation. It reduces confidence in CCP's ability to keep information confidential. If IA is fine with leaks of information about CCPs internal politics to random players, then is players personal information secure ? Would a CCP member leaking that player X is also player Y be reprimanded ?I am really having difficulties believing somebody at IA would mess up so bad. Essentially putting their job at risk for something so petty as this. No, most likely unprofound boasting by a rumormonger.
(not to be associated with Veik's Archuran Schoolgirl Jackboot Brigade [tm]).
We all know who it was. Why should we be polite about it, ESPECIALLY when they're rubbing it in everyone's face.
Oh so what (no offense Makkal). It's like Silas said, don't start fires if you don't like flames. I can't see a single bit of justification in protecting this person from the 'fruits' of their labor.Backstage is not the place for flamewars. It's a place set up specifically for those who don't want to deal with that sort of thing.
Oh so what (no offense Makkal). It's like Silas said, don't start fires if you don't like flames. I can't see a single bit of justification in protecting this person from the 'fruits' of their labor.Backstage is not the place for flamewars. It's a place set up specifically for those who don't want to deal with that sort of thing.
While it was snarky, self-assured and factually inaccurate, it does not constitute flaming.
While it was snarky, self-assured and factually inaccurate, it does not constitute flaming.
I don't like accusing people of having reading comprehension issues, Nemo, but the post was removed for being flamebait not flaming, and Ciarente explicitly stated so. This is almost as much a serious no-no when it's done deliberately for that purpose.
It was definitely intended as flamebait and shit-stirring, considering what happened after it was posted. And no, by the way, I'm not referring to the posts responding to it.
Makkal is correct: Backstage is not the place for flamewars. That's why we don't tolerate people dumping lighter fluid all over the place just as we don't tolerate the people throwing the lit matches.
I would just like to step in and make something abundantly clear:
The Mod staff on the Summit and OOC do not consider ourselves the be all and end all of EVE RP. We understand that the Summit and OOC have a set of rules which not everyone agrees on, and have in the past encouraged those seeking an alternate set of rules to found and populate their own channels.
If you think about it, it's pretty weird that the primary IC RP channel in the game isn't controlled by CCP. So I, for one, welcome the new channels.
I mean, I haven't joined 'em, but I welcome 'em.
I haven't been in any of CCP's new channels nor do I intend to. Whatever happens there involving whomever will have no effect on what I do with regards to RP.
I invite you all to join me in having nothing to do with those channels or the person(s) claiming responsibility/victory/whatever.
I haven't been in any of CCP's new channels nor do I intend to. Whatever happens there involving whomever will have no effect on what I do with regards to RP.
I invite you all to join me in having nothing to do with those channels or the person(s) claiming responsibility/victory/whatever.
Right there with you.
If you think about it, it's pretty weird that the primary IC RP channel in the game isn't controlled by CCP. So I, for one, welcome the new channels.
I mean, I haven't joined 'em, but I welcome 'em.
Republic Fleet Admiral > Capsuleers! we will be moving a convoy of liberated ex-slaves through Ammatar space, escorts will be most welcomeAh, but you see, now everyone can participate equally in said event and removes the need for people to do recon/scout/intel gathering...
Imperial/Angel/Nation pilot > Interesting.
Minmatar pilot > Admiral, may I suggest a more secure channel?
Republic Fleet Admiral > No, you may not.
Imperial/Angel/Nation pilot > lol
Minmatar pilot > what is.. OPsec, Admiral ?
Republic Fleet Admiral > A region of space, I assume, as are HIsec, LOsec and so on.
~a short time later~
Scope News Reporter > Capsuleers! I am reporting on the shooting down of a Republic Fleet convoy of refugees, what is your opinion?
Nation/Angel/Imperial pilot > Well, they were fools. Fools I say.
Minmatar pilot > why do I even... hey, Nation dude, sign me up. I'm tired of this baloney.
well, that sure sounds like fun.
But I'd like to take a moment to direct people to the WGoE public channel where Vea is a moderator. In the motd, it specifically says that most mods will give warnings before banning, but "Vea is a bitch and goes straight for the ban button"
Quite frankly, a lot of people are reacting in a manner that I consider beneath the level of maturity I've long associated them with. Yes, Falcon's about as blunt as a brick to the face, he always has been direct and cutting through the bullshit. He's also always been someone to try and put things right when his manner of speaking has offended, the fact some people have an inability to stfu for a moment or two makes me wonder if some people actually care about the RP community, or just want to further their own ego at the expense of everyone else.
so any misbehavior results in a ban.
so any misbehavior results in a ban.
Banning people for misbehavior as defined by the channel moderators for their own player-created channels?
Great idea, we should make some channels where that's the policy!
so any misbehavior results in a ban.
Banning people for misbehavior as defined by the channel moderators for their own player-created channels?
Great idea, we should make some channels where that's the policy!
I agree. Unless CCP is there. If a CCP dev starts hanging out in WGoE Pub, the rules will be revised. They will be the TOS and EULA.
Of course not. I would open a GM ticket. Getting someone banned from the game is much more satisfying than simply banning them from a channel.so any misbehavior results in a ban.
Banning people for misbehavior as defined by the channel moderators for their own player-created channels?
Great idea, we should make some channels where that's the policy!
I agree. Unless CCP is there. If a CCP dev starts hanging out in WGoE Pub, the rules will be revised. They will be the TOS and EULA.
But you'd still be the one enforcing the rules, which is clearly tyrannical and removing the ability of harmless individuals to interact with CCP. Not good enough, tsk tsk... haven't you heard? Unless it's CCP themselves handing out punishments, it's unfair.
Of course not. I would open a GM ticket. Getting someone banned from the game is much more satisfying than simply banning them from a channel.
so any misbehavior results in a ban.
Banning people for misbehavior as defined by the channel moderators for their own player-created channels?
Great idea, we should make some channels where that's the policy!
I agree. Unless CCP is there. If a CCP dev starts hanging out in WGoE Pub, the rules will be revised. They will be the TOS and EULA.
Reading the second log makes me :bash:
Apart from the fact some people can't remove their hands from the keyboard, because they're more focused on getting in cheap digs than allowing for civil discourse, the amount of snark has me sitting here thinking "You're just proving the point of why CCP went and did this."
Quite frankly, a lot of people are reacting in a manner that I consider beneath the level of maturity I've long associated them with. Yes, Falcon's about as blunt as a brick to the face, he always has been direct and cutting through the bullshit. He's also always been someone to try and put things right when his manner of speaking has offended, the fact some people have an inability to stfu for a moment or two makes me wonder if some people actually care about the RP community, or just want to further their own ego at the expense of everyone else.
so any misbehavior results in a ban.
Banning people for misbehavior as defined by the channel moderators for their own player-created channels?
Great idea, we should make some channels where that's the policy!
I agree. Unless CCP is there. If a CCP dev starts hanging out in WGoE Pub, the rules will be revised. They will be the TOS and EULA.
You know those rules I talked about? No murder, no nudity etc?
You broke both of those rules. And those are just the ones that are relatively public knowledge.
So I hope, genuinely, you can see why people find "I AM THE LAW" Vea hard to swallow. It's going to take more than forum posts to convince people that you did what you did out of a want for fairness.
Things so far just seem to say Vea did this for Vea.
derp - a quantity I already possess in abundance.
derp - a quantity I already possess in abundance.Confirming.
derp - a quantity I already possess in abundance.Confirming.
You know, in my Eve life. Through my kirjuun. Like you.
This has the potential to screw up EVE RP for years. This whole sorry affair.I'm totally fine with this.
As you can see in other threads, members of the events team, Eterne and Falcon, and others, have written a bunch of things, e.g. there's a thing about the Theology Council view on capsuleers.
All of this stuff is as yet, unpublished. But because of its content, is vitally important for RP, as it describes a substantial amount of the game world.
So, all this shenaniganery, putting the events team under pressure and such, might jeopardise the publication of that material. But, because the stuff has been written, and probably put into whatever internal PF repository that CCP has, then it will continue to hang around in some shape or form, colouring any PF that is released, but forever just out of the reach of players.
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.
So. :|
This has the potential to screw up EVE RP for years. This whole sorry affair.I'm totally fine with this.
As you can see in other threads, members of the events team, Eterne and Falcon, and others, have written a bunch of things, e.g. there's a thing about the Theology Council view on capsuleers.
All of this stuff is as yet, unpublished. But because of its content, is vitally important for RP, as it describes a substantial amount of the game world.
So, all this shenaniganery, putting the events team under pressure and such, might jeopardise the publication of that material. But, because the stuff has been written, and probably put into whatever internal PF repository that CCP has, then it will continue to hang around in some shape or form, colouring any PF that is released, but forever just out of the reach of players.
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.
So. :|
:cube:derp - a quantity I already possess in abundance.Confirming.
You know, in my Eve life. Through my kirjuun. Like you.
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.I'm totally fine with this.
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.I'm totally fine with this.
You're fine with years of RP events being binned ?
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.I'm totally fine with this.
You're fine with years of RP events being binned ?
In a twisted, scorched earth policy sort of way....I would be. It's like, 'OK, that's cool, piss on our cheerios. I'll sit back while your victory burns to the ground and ruins it for everyone. Then no one can have a good time. Enjoy!'
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.
I'm totally fine with this.
You're fine with years of RP events being binned ?
In a twisted, scorched earth policy sort of way....I would be. It's like, 'OK, that's cool, piss on our cheerios. I'll sit back while your victory burns to the ground and ruins it for everyone. Then no one can have a good time. Enjoy!'
And, because of players not having the full picture, off they go, happily theorising about stuff, and then, Ka-Blam! stuff gets published, invalidating years of collective player RP.I'm totally fine with this.
You're fine with years of RP events being binned ?
You're fine with years of RP events being binned ?If it were to pave the way for something better, absolutely - wouldn't bat an eyelid. Not that I think CCP would need to go anywhere near as far as full scorched earth, but I'm absolutely confident that if it did Falcon would be capable of delivering such a "something better." The roleplay community lost a fair few important figures over the past few years and in my opinion its current behaviour is not only driving more of them away, it's actively discouraging new arrivals from engaging with us.
My personal experience with the RP community when I was a wide eyed roleplaying newb, was to not even realise the Summit or OOC existed. I spent 6 months RPing purely inside Gradient and EM before meeting anyone from outside of the alliance. This meant that I was grounded enough in PF and what I should and should not be doing that the Summit was a relatively easy thing to just merge into.
However, in retrospect I'm not overly sure that joining the Summit was a good idea. While the frequency and variety of my RP increased, I can't help but feel that my RP also became a lot less meaningful.
On the flip side of that though, the number of OOC friendships I developed ballooned rapidly :P
I didn't show up at the event shooting baseliners in the face or screaming about how awesome I was.
I would have said 'Hi', Ari, but the jello wrestling match was fairly intensive for me and I didn't really get the opportunity to pay attention to anyone but Ava, Anslol, Scherezad and the nice lady that took care of me between getting hit and everyone realising it.
I think people should think about that. When the "friendly" people in the RP community are considered islands of misfit toys by everyone else... it's time for a bit of self reflection.
Long overdue.
Well I recognized Arista during that jello wrestling affair while on an RP alt because they were top of the channel list and I was like, "Oh, sexy Achuran lady" then was like, "No. Wait. Sexy Khanid lady. Note for Veik later."God damn it, scooped. I was going to go all "Well, it's kind of hard to get noticed sometimes, UNLESS you fit into Veik's fetishes-"
God damn it, scooped. I was going to go all "Well, it's kind of hard to get noticed sometimes, UNLESS you fit into Veik's fetishes-"
Least desirable of all, checking in.
God damn it, scooped. I was going to go all "Well, it's kind of hard to get noticed sometimes, UNLESS you fit into Veik's fetishes-"
The real reason I don't interact with the wider community is because I get this sense that if someone says:
"So I had this talk with Veik."
the overwhelming response would be:
"OMG ARE YOU OKAY, WHERE DID THEY TOUCH YOU, DO YOU WANT SOME JUICE?"
I blame Anslo.
Well I recognized Arista during that jello wrestling affair while on an RP alt because they were top of the channel list and I was like, "Oh, sexy Achuran lady" then was like, "No. Wait. Sexy Khanid lady. Note for Veik later."
Didn't get to talk much IC because Anslo was too busy touching my dirty Minma-alt with his shirt off while whispering sweet nothings, covered in flavoured gelatin.
Much like most things to do with RP in Eve. I blame Anslo.
Anyway, these days I consider myself to be a card carrying member of the RP community pariah club due to Veik being a noted Kaalakiota hate machine and all around too grimdark and edgy to handle type Deteis. :lol:
KONTENT CREASHUNSI blame Anslo.
Well I recognized Arista during that jello wrestling affair while on an RP alt because they were top of the channel list and I was like, "Oh, sexy Achuran lady" then was like, "No. Wait. Sexy Khanid lady. Note for Veik later."
Didn't get to talk much IC because Anslo was too busy touching my dirty Minma-alt with his shirt off while whispering sweet nothings, covered in flavoured gelatin.
Much like most things to do with RP in Eve. I blame Anslo.
Anyway, these days I consider myself to be a card carrying member of the RP community pariah club due to Veik being a noted Kaalakiota hate machine and all around too grimdark and edgy to handle type Deteis. :lol:KONTENT CREASHUNSI blame Anslo.
Second least desirable of all, checking in.I fixed it for you.
And the end result of that why should not be to lay a blame game, because in all of the shit that has come up and happened it doesn't matter whose fault it is, it only matters to fix it or find a way to live with it.
"EVE RP" when I first started playing, and what I've found outside of people on Backstage (people who don't consider themselves tabletop types) is playing EVE and knowing the lore. If you have those two things you are a silent protagonist in your own story, or if the silence is broken, it is because you are interacting with Capsuleers, who have "their own society". No one needs to worldbuild it in a document, it's built -- it's there, on the EVE cluster, in countless official and corporate forums and voicecomms. RP is not dead in EVE, it's very, very alive. It is a bunch of Capsuleers living Capsuleer lives and not caring about anything else - which is sort of what they're written to be, so it's all quite canon. They either don't consider what they do as RP because it's not *emote I do stuff, they just DO it, or they do realise they RP every day, but just don't want to get involved in chatroom stuff.
And the end result of that why should not be to lay a blame game, because in all of the shit that has come up and happened it doesn't matter whose fault it is, it only matters to fix it or find a way to live with it.
Sorry, I disagree.
"The blame game" is sort of only appropriate in more vague, multi-party arguments where both sides have good points, and there's back and forth and a dialogue.
I'm perfectly happy blaming the shit out of specific people for specific derpery. One or two people being fuckups is not the community's fault, and the collective group of us shouldn't feel guilty, or do a ton of navel gazing about 'what did we do wrong as a group." Nothing, some people are awful, end of story, full stop.
Everyone being fuckups is the community's fault, but we aren't anywhere near that, and 90% of us are perfectly happy and play well with others just about all the time.
I don't know who you are or why everyone hates you (though your role in all this recent shit is clear, I mean I don't know why people hated you before this) but if you and/or your toon are in fact less desirable than me and my Havohej, then I will have to work on this problem... if Shady lets me. Since I'm probably joining her corp soon.Second least desirable of all, checking in.I fixed it for you.
Not empty quoting. Nice to see someone agrees.Long overdue.
What is long overdue ?
What is long overdue ?
I believe an exception can and should exist for one-off player events, when the actor characters are individually invited/reserved in advance specifically for the event in question (like the way SOE's live events team worked in SWG). CCP Falcon's messages so far indicate only a removal from general channels like Summit and OOC, and to my knowledge don't specifically preclude attendance from other player events.
It's been indicated to us that actors are at this point prohibited from communicating via a player-run channel for any reason, including player-run events. To say this is a less-than-optimal situation is an understatement.I will reiterate that the current state of affairs was how it was meant to be from the beginning.
It's been indicated to us that actors are at this point prohibited from communicating via a player-run channel for any reason, including player-run events. To say this is a less-than-optimal situation is an understatement.I will reiterate that the current state of affairs was how it was meant to be from the beginning.
Furthermore it occurs to me that it's a frankly startling coincidence that the people most upset by CCP suddenly deciding to consistently enforce their own internal rules on this subject are the people who benefited most from them not doing so.
CCP having their own channels makes plenty of sense. CCP actors being banned from player channels really doesn't. This is what their policy was supposed to be all along? Fucking DERP.The entire point of the rule was so that CCP would not be seen as showing favouritism, because the EVE Illuminati simply do not have enough staff to consistently provide event actors whenever a player event or channel happens to need one. There is a very specific pattern to the breakage of this rule which indicates why it was a good idea to have it in the first place, and why it was an excellent decision on behalf of CCP to begin enforcing it properly.
And yes, of course the people who have enjoyed direct interaction with actors are bothered by it being outlawed. It was a part of the game they enjoyed, and it's been removed."Benefited from," Victoria, not merely "enjoyed." There is a difference.
I will reiterate that the current state of affairs was how it was meant to be from the beginning.
Furthermore it occurs to me that it's a frankly startling coincidence that the people most upset by CCP suddenly deciding to consistently enforce their own internal rules on this subject are the people who benefited most from them not doing so.
There is a very specific pattern to the breakage of this rule which indicates why it was a good idea to have it in the first place, and why it was an excellent decision on behalf of CCP to begin enforcing it properly.And yes, of course the people who have enjoyed direct interaction with actors are bothered by it being outlawed. It was a part of the game they enjoyed, and it's been removed."Benefited from," Victoria, not merely "enjoyed." There is a difference.
People are insinuating there has been "unacceptably heavy" endorsement of "certain factions", i.e. event actors turning up in X faction player-run events.
Evidence of this? Any evidence at all ?
Or is it just an imagined bias, by people with grudges against the operator teams of "the summit" and other places?
Convince me.
Convince me.Why bother?
It should be noted that for the PIE anniversary event we had sent out direct invites to the developer actors at least a month in advance. I don't know if the Federation Day crew did the same, but if they hadn't then this would be a factor to consider.We did. The dev running the Federation event actors apparently follows the rules a bit more closely than the one running the Amarrian event actors, because we got a polite "sorry, appreciate the invite, but can't." This is precisely the same response that the PIE ball and its attendees should have received. In point of fact, the surprise to me was not that the PIE ball got an event actor and we initially didn't, it was that our campaign of somewhat-phony outrage actually managed to cause the dev enough concern that they actually bothered to send us an actor at all.
I also find it interesting for you to say that Amarr get more. We haven't even had a single Amarr live event this yearLive events aren't relevant to this discussion. Those are not player events. This entire conversation we're having revolves around event actor attendance at player events, which to the (thankfully) limited extent that it happened favoured Amarrians. The entire reason for the rule about not showing up at player events or in player channels to begin with was CCP's desire to not appear to show favouritism. It should not have happened and no longer will.
and the actors we got at the anniversary was pretty much the only bone we've had from the live events team this year.That's unfortunate, but you'd have to take that up with the live events team.
Now, I can't speak for past years, mind, but for this one we've certainly been on the backburner compared to everyone else.In past years? In past years there was a live events team called AURORA, which was infamously shut down for disproportionately favouring Amarrians - it was to the point where it was actually discouraging roleplayers in other factions. If you want to know why there was an almost year-long period where I was literally the only active Federal roleplayer in the entire game, this was one of many contributing factors.
I was rather surprised they turned up, actually. CCP Falcon had mentioned in OOC chat a few weeks before that they weren't allowed to attend player-run events.Which is why, purely for the purposes of sarcasm, I'm going to pretend that I'm surprised that people are pretending to be surprised about this.
Personally I don't really agree with a complete ban of attending player events, but I do think that if they are going to attend player-run events then they absolutely need to handle it in a responsible and equal manner.They don't have the resources to do this. It's between three and twelve guys (depending on who you ask and what time of day/time of year it is) who have to manage essentially the entirety of the EVE universe's canon. They don't have the time or the money to dedicate to the RP community on this serious a basis and given the current state of it I'm not sure we'd deserve it even if they did.
I was rather surprised they turned up, actually. CCP Falcon had mentioned in OOC chat a few weeks before that they weren't allowed to attend player-run events.Which is why, purely for the purposes of sarcasm, I'm going to pretend that I'm surprised that people are pretending to be surprised about this.
Personally I don't really agree with a complete ban of attending player events, but I do think that if they are going to attend player-run events then they absolutely need to handle it in a responsible and equal manner.They don't have the resources to do this. It's between three and twelve guys (depending on who you ask and what time of day/time of year it is) who have to manage essentially the entirety of the EVE universe's canon. They don't have the time or the money to dedicate to the RP community on this serious a basis and given the current state of it I'm not sure we'd deserve it even if they did.
Isn't a pretending thing here. Like I said, I've only been playing for 8 months, so I don't know how things are supposed to be handled.Oh, no, I'm totally aware it's not a pretending thing.
I just don't want to see event support completely eliminated. EVE is one of if not the only MMO that still has an events team, and that's one of the biggest draws to the game IMO. They just need to make it equal opportunity for all players, because from what I'm hearing it wasn't and that's definitely wrong.Currently it is equal opportunity. Any player can participate in a live event, which is sometimes pretty ludicrous; the only time I've seen an event actor express even a modicum of discomfort about being in a fleet with someone was when Stitcher was chosen as our cyno pilot for the Combined Harvest event, which was frankly a perfectly understandable - if not strictly logical - concern: "he's Caldari, can we trust him?" Now, with the proper enforcement of rules which were already in place but previously inconsistently enforced, no group of players can accuse the dev team of being biased towards one faction in terms of channel or event attendance because the only channel event actors appear in is run by CCP (meaning players cannot gate access to real-time interaction with the event actors) and the only events the actors appear at are run by CCP (and thus open to all).
That's a lot of assumptions that you make.Yes. Fortunately, I'm rarely wrong.
That's a lot of assumptions that you make.Yes. Fortunately, I'm rarely wrong.
(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/neil-degrasse-tyson-badass.gif)That's a lot of assumptions that you make.Yes. Fortunately, I'm rarely wrong.
That's a lot of empty quoting you're doing.
That's a lot of assumptions that you make.Yes. Fortunately, I'm rarely wrong.
Alright, fuck it.
If you know your devs, you'll know that one of the devs in the EVE Illuminati is in charge of "Amarrian" event actors and PF - which is a wide net which also includes Khanid, Ammatar, SoE and the Blood Raiders.
Did anyone think to ask why PIE's event got an actual Amarrian actor visiting it, but the Federation Day event only got an SoE actor? Esna's suggestion that we got a FedNav actor is misinformed - I was there for the entire length of Federation Day (I had to be - I was DJing) and the only reason we got a visit from an event actor at all is because we began making noise in various channels about the fact that PIE had got a visit from an event actor and we hadn't. You could call this "manufactured outrage" on our part, and to be fair it probably was, but it worked - yellow text appeared in Dodixie local for all of, what, five minutes, if that? The funny thing was, when the event actor turned up, it was SoE, which are a group which has basically nothing to do with the Federation. This makes absolutely no sense unless you consider that the event actors for SoE are controlled by the same dev who does the event actors for Amarr and the Blood Raiders. The dev who does the event actors for the Federation is an entirely different person.
When you look at event actor attendance at player-run events, a distinct pattern emerges.
So I'm just going to come right out and say it - Amarrians were the ones benefiting almost exclusively off event actors attending their events and hanging out in their channels. Why are Minmatar, Caldari and in particular Gallente roleplayers collectively less upset about the event actors not coming to our events or channels anymore? Well shit, how would we even know something had changed? It'll basically be exactly the same for us as it was before. The only visible change that's occured from our perspective is that players are no longer able to gate access to the channels where the event actors usually hang out, which is a benefit to everyone equally.
Well, of course, except for the gatekeepers. But you don't know any of them, do you? ;)
It should be noted that for the PIE anniversary event we had sent out direct invites to the developer actors at least a month in advance. I don't know if the Federation Day crew did the same, but if they hadn't then this would be a factor to consider.We did. The dev running the Federation event actors apparently follows the rules a bit more closely than the one running the Amarrian event actors, because we got a polite "sorry, appreciate the invite, but can't." This is precisely the same response that the PIE ball and its attendees should have received. In point of fact, the surprise to me was not that the PIE ball got an event actor and we initially didn't, it was that our campaign of somewhat-phony outrage actually managed to cause the dev enough concern that they actually bothered to send us an actor at all.
I also find it interesting for you to say that Amarr get more. We haven't even had a single Amarr live event this yearLive events aren't relevant to this discussion. Those are not player events. This entire conversation we're having revolves around event actor attendance at player events, which to the (thankfully) limited extent that it happened favoured Amarrians. The entire reason for the rule about not showing up at player events or in player channels to begin with was CCP's desire to not appear to show favouritism. It should not have happened and no longer will.
Now, I can't speak for past years, mind, but for this one we've certainly been on the backburner compared to everyone else.In past years? In past years there was a live events team called AURORA, which was infamously shut down for disproportionately favouring Amarrians - it was to the point where it was actually discouraging roleplayers in other factions. If you want to know why there was an almost year-long period where I was literally the only active Federal roleplayer in the entire game, this was one of many contributing factors.
I would wager good money that the AURORA debacle is a major contributing factor in - if not the sole reason for - the "don't involve live event actors in player channels or events" rule.
First off, Esna's not misinformed. He was referring to a previous Federation Day, just like others have several times before him in this thread.The current live events team weren't even active the previous Federation Day, which means it has precisely zero relevance to this conversation.
Second: The reason there was an SOE actor at the Federation Day event is because the person who organized the event explicitly asked for an SOE actor.That's not what they told me.
Furthermore, the Live Events team has more people on it than are able to participate with proper speaking roles. If someone who is responsible for one or more actors is not available at the time of the event you're planning, that's your problem, not theirs. The person responsible for the Fed actors likely wasn't available that day due to having a real life outside of the office, and the person(s) responsible for the Amarr and SOE ones were.Incorrect.
As stated before, if only one of the people who is authorized to 'play' the part of an actor in answering mails or showing up to events - CCP-hosted or not - is available, then the onus is on your end to try and find a time that works for the actor(s) you want to appear, not to throw a fit when the people who are available show up to events scheduled when they're available just because they're not your event.Again you fail to understand that this is only about "who turned up at my event" (which you're misrepresenting anyway since Federation Day wasn't arranged by me) in as much as an example of why the "live event actors don't turn up at player-run events because it could make CCP appear biased" was a good idea.
AURORA's problem was not favoritism toward a specific faction based on story arcs or events. It was people inside it cheating and giving information about the events to other parties that allowed them to be 'pushed' to those volunteers' player-characters' benefit.... and those parties were almost always Amarrians. Next time you back up one of my points, please do so in a less round-about manner.
Furthermore, your apparent position that live events and player events are (or should be) wholly separate from one another is not a good precedent to set in a world where we're supposed to be able to cause ripples, not just react to ones caused by CCP.a. That's alright, the current state of the roleplay community honestly makes me pretty happy that our influence on the prime fiction is limited.
The Amarrians have had absolutely NO live events since last year, and that's questionable at best considering that the only event I can think of actually involved Blood Raiders faffing about in highsec and then moving on to Oyonata where they got smashed in (there was a minor thing for people collecting Navy tags for the Blood Raider actors as well, but no actual 'event' behind it afaik). On the other hand, the Caldari have had this huge arc with the destabilization of Heth's Provist regime and its fall to the CEP, they also shared the Caldari Prime arc with the Gallente, who shared the Midular/Colelie arc with the Minmatar, who finally had the Tribal Council (or whatever it is) set back up after 5 years. Even several of the pirate factions have had small arcs as part of the Dust 514 connection.Everything you're saying here amounts to "it's alright for CCP to break their own internal rules if it's for the benefit of X organisation because I don't personally feel they're getting enough love," which is an excellent example of the reason CCP put this rule into practice in the first place and a brilliant argument as to why the answer to your question is a definitive "no."
So the Amarrians have had basically no attention from the Events team since it got put back together again, and somehow it's not cool for them to have a couple actors show up for about half an hour at an event put on by one of the oldest corporations in the game for their 10th anniversary, which, by the way, they left so that the person (or persons) playing them could go show up to the Federation Day event that was scheduled at the same time?
I'm not even really a member of the Amarrian RP subcommunity and I think that's a crock of shit.Well that's is, as ever, your right.
Oh, it's Andreus's well-known dislike of amarr players again, seeing pro-amarrian things everywhere.There are actually a lot of Amarrian roleplayers I intensely enjoy the company of, several of whom were at the EVE meet last Saturday, and what's even better is that a lot of them share my opinions about the current crop of Amarrian roleplayers. It may come as a surprise, but just because I don't happen to be friends with you, it doesn't mean I dislike all Amarrians.
vOv
There are actually a lot of Amarrian roleplayers I intensely enjoy the company of, several of whom were at the EVE meet last Saturday, and what's even better is that a lot of them share my opinions about the current crop of Amarrian roleplayers. It may come as a surprise, but just because I don't happen to be friends with you, it doesn't mean I dislike all Amarrians.