Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Silver Night]

Thread for the general discussion of the Caldari State.

To quote from the above-linked wiki:

A state built on corporate capitalism, the Caldari State is run by a few mega-corporations which divide the state between them, controlling and ruling every aspect of society. Each corporation is made up of thousands of smaller companies, ranging from industrial companies to law firms. All land and real estate is owned by a company which leases it to the citizens, and government and policing are also handled by independent companies.

Although this gives the corporations dictatorial powers, they are just as bound by Caldari customs and laws as the individual, and the fierce, continual competition between the corporations ensures a healthy, consumer-based social environment, which benefits everyone.

The modern Caldari State is largely a result of the events of the Caldari-Gallente War and the more recent shakeup from the Provists and Tibus Heth.

The Caldari State is 'ruled' by the Chief Executive Panel

The War Chronicles:
Early Days
The Breakout
The War Drones On

Other Chronicles:
Fatal and the Rabbit (Guristas)
Cold Wind
State Factionalism
Methods of Torture: Caldari
The Better Part of Valor
Tomorrow a Dream
Masks of Authority
A World Where No Such Road Will Run
Wild Earth
For the State
The Slow Disease
Jita 4-4 (Discussion)

News Articles:
(All)

Megacorps:
CBD (Discussion)
Ishukone (Discussion)
Hyasyoda (Discussion)
Kaalakiota (Discussion)
Lai Dai (Discussion)
NOH (Discussion)
SuVee (Discussion)
Wiyrkomi (Discussion)

Other Organizations:
Zainou
Caldari Funds Unlimited

Additional Resources:
Napanii (Player created Caldari language)
Caldari Financial System

Other Backstage Discussions:
The New Meritocracy and State Dissidents
Gambling and the Caldari
Caldari and the Khanid Kingdom
Caldari Education
The State and The Republic
Defining the State
The State and Sexuality
Caldari Politics

This thread is just meant to give a place to get an overview and have any wide-ranging disussion of the State that people would like. If there are particularly interesting lines of discussion we can always split them off and I'll link them here. If there are things you think should be linked (discussions or resources/PF) just speak up. The lists above are certainly not comprehensive. Might also add a list of Megacorp Paramilitaries later.

So, with all that, how do you view the State? How do your characters view it?

[Gottii]

Ok, this is an extension of the conversation from the "How Strong is your Faction Loyalty" thread.  As a former lawyer who did a lot of corporate work for a massive Fortune 50 company, and saw a lot of corporate life, the Caldari always intrigue/horrify me.

I'd really like to know how this whole bit about the Caldari being silent at one sporting event in TBL is prima facie evidence that the whole culture is "quiet". Every other source of PF we have about the Caldari - that I am aware of - portrays them as rambunctious, unruly, competitive, rebellious, and expressive.

I disagree with the characterization of the Caldari being rambunctious, unruly, rebellious and expressive (at least in the way most Westerners would conceive of such things).  Given the description of their culture, I dont think they could be and still be a part of Caldari society.

Looking at the basic Caldari description, you get

Caldari society is steeped in military tradition.  

"Military tradition" means, well, based on the military.  And any veteran from the military will tell you, the military isnt about being a rebel, rambunctious, unruly or expressive.  Aggressive and competitive sure, but anyone who makes the mistake of sticking out will likely be hammered back into place.  Individualism, rambunctiousness and non-conformity are the antithesis of what it is to live according to a military tradition.

Further on down you read

As long as you keep in line, do your job, uphold the laws and so forth, life can be fairly pleasant and productive. But for those who are not cut out for this strict, disciplined regime life quickly becomes intolerable. They lose their respect, family, status, everything, and the only options left to them are suicide or exile.

Basically, as long as you "stay in line", you have a place in the State.  This seems the exact opposite of being unruly, rebellious, individualistic, or expressive.  You hue the party line or else.

Anyone who cant put up with this life is cast out, and I mean fully cast out.  Not just from the State or from his job, but from his friends and family.  Everyone turns their back on you.  

The idea that, if you say the wrong thing or are seen as stepping "out of line" you could lose everything, your family, your friends, your place in society, your employment, would undoubtedly have a chilling effect on any kind of rebellious or overly individualistic actions.

Keep in mind, Caldari culture is highly competitive, which means constant jockeying for positions and status.  Why give John down the hall the chance to appear more "Caldari" or respectable than you by eschewing the corporate dress code while he's wearing the boss's favorite suit?  That kind of competition goes on in todays corporate halls, I'm sure it would only be magnified in the State.  

PF states that the State is strict and disciplined, and that numerous people end up failing to meet its standards and being forced to give up their entire lives (often literally, through suicide).  Its literally the corporate grind on crack, which weeds out the weak-minded, the rebellious and the undisciplined.  

(Interesting thought, this could be part of the Caldari "antibodies" to Gallente cultural indoctrination, those Caldari who would have the personality traits find the Gallente individualism/consumerism/liberalism attractive would have already been cast out of Caldari society and institutions because of those very same personality traits.)

In short, Caldari society embodies the line in Rush's Subdivisions, "conform or be cast out".  Not just from work, but from your whole life.  This isnt the place for the rebellious, the unruly or the misfits.

However, this also explains why Caldari can be quiet involved and extreme in their past times.  Just like in the military, when we finally hit a port or had leave time, intense and frenzied debauchery commenced.  It was our one outlet, the one time we had permission to cut loose and be free for awhile.

I could see this in the State.  When Caldari are given the relatively infrequent chance to cut loose a bit without social/economic repercussions , they go all out.  

[Silver Night]

I'll quote a response I made related to that same post, Gottii:

I view all of the factions as much more multi-dimensional than that. I think there is ample evidence that the Caldari have a deep creative and artistic streak. I would also say that just because Caldari have a variety of cultural pressures, that doesn't mean they can't, don't, or wouldn't express themselves.

I would agree with Vikarion about 'rambunctious, unruly, competitive, rebellious, and expressive'. I think that it is the form it takes that would show marked differences from the Gallente or Minmatar. That is, I think most often Caldari work on the level of some collective entity, rather than as individuals - particularly when it comes to the competitive and rebellious parts. Whether it's at the level of a corporation, a department, or some other organization.

I think there might be this impression that the Caldari culture is this very set and old thing where everyone and their interactions are carefully delineated by the culture. That doesn't mesh with the fact that aside from the Minmatar, the Caldari have gone through more change, more recently, than virtually any other culture in Eve. The war, the ascension of corporations as a form of government, the exile, etc.


Edit: And to bring things back on-topic, I've had a Caldari keychain for the past 4 or 5 years.  

Basically, Vikarion didn't say 'individualism' there anywhere. While we're used to applying most of those traits to individuals, I think many of them could apply to groups (particularly when it comes to competitive, unruly, and rebellious.)

I don't see a rebellious employee doing well, but I could see a corporation doing something that might rebel against it's parent megacorp.

While there are similarities, it bears remembering that Caldari corporations and megacorporations are not exactly like their RL counterparts. They incorporate elements of employer, government, and socio-cultural icon for their employees. In addition, the corporations under any given Megacorporate umbrella are probably diverse in function and scope, but also in internal culture and goals.

Their place as not only direct employer, but also as something akin to a more local - or at least more immediate - government under a megacorporate umbrella has any number of ramifications. Particularly when it's added to teh well documented competitiveness that's already been mentioned and potentially (at least in some cases) an internal culture that might place the corporation one is directly a part of ahead of the megacorporation that owns it.

Imagine a corporation engineering it's own takeover by a competing Mega (as what might be a rare, but I don't think entirely unlikely possibility), or finding a way to sabotage a fellow corporation owned by the same Mega in a less extreme case.

Megacorps and Corporations in the State also operate under a very different set of restraints than their RL counterparts. I suspect many of them are cultural and practical, rather than set down in law. After all, you could see the 'State' (though perhaps less-so post-Heth) as mostly an interface for foreign policy and for establishing formal channels and laws between major corporations. The State's ultimate judiciary deals exclusively with inter-corporate issues, and it's executive seems to be literally the CEOs of the Megacorps.

I would certainly agree that on an individual level, people in the State fit in or get fit in. I think beyond the individual level, it might well be a very different story.

Also, some of those things don't preclude fitting in, rambunctious and expressive particularly. Art as political expression might be very culturally limited, and variously legally limited depending on megacorp, but beyond that. And off duty I think many Caldari are wild as anyone (look at their love of gambling, for example.)

I'm also not sure that the society being steeped in military tradition translates directly to being run like a military, either. It may be the case that some corporations are, but to me that is more an indication that the militaries are both a large employer, and considered a prestigious career - either a corporate paramilitary, or the State's own. They hold a prominent place in society, and the State has a strong military tradition historically.

As always, even if the State might be smallish relative to the other Empires, there is plenty of room for nearly everything. Certainly I epxect parts of NOH are more 'rambunctious' than near anything you will find in Hyasyoda, and KK probably has a stronger influence from military culture internally than SuVee.

[Gottii]

I did admit that I added the word "individualism", but its hard for me to envision someone rebellious, unruly, expressive, and rambunctious while remaining a conformist.  Well, maybe in high school, but otherwise...

Of course its all relative, but I was hoping to identify certain trends and defining characteristics. 

Regarding your point on smaller corps rebelling from their parent corp, I completely agree.  Though I think it might be more an expression of intense competition rather than outright rebellion.  I would imagine that on the organizational level, the Caldari are quite dynamic and active when it goes to jockeying for position and status. 

It would be interesting to see the way Caldari society/government (such as it is) allows for the inevitable power struggles and changes in the organizational flow-chart.  Not just business/finance rules, but social ones as well. 

[Silver Night]

Well. That probably varies by corporation.

To use a very loose analogy: I think an Ishukone employee probably views being a citizen of the State in the way that a German does being a citizen of Europe.

Depending on location, someone might go their entire life without seeing an employee of a different megacorp. Power struggles etc. are probably only matters for the State when they happen at the very highest levels.

On a lower level, how flexible the government is probably depends on which Mega or subsidiary is doing the relevant governing.

[Kohiko Sun]

The thing to remember about being rebellious and rambunctious is the context where you find it. Imagine a poorly formed modern example: day in and day out people come and go at their corporate office in business suits; now, there's one in this crowd we're imagining with a ballcap on backwards. Compared to the rest, he's the rebel, and people will take notice.

The rebelling subsidiaries you both talk about make sense to me when viewed in a feudal structure - which is how I see the State - with a patchwork of fiefdoms and demenses based off the Megas' holdings. From the top down: SuVee could own all the real estate of a city; an Ishukone R&D or manufacturing enclave works and lives there; the workers like to go to a club outside of the enclave, and it belongs to NOH - and on and on with the overlaps. Going farther down, you'd get to the progressively smaller and more specialized subsidiaries. Each level in the chain would be trying to protect its own direct subsidiaries from the others - from espionage and dirtier play to outright attempts at buyouts and absorptions - while watching for a chance to pounce on the others. The groups are co-mingled with each other.

I realize I forgot rambunctious when I did rebellious. Well, looking past the love for gambling, Splinterz, Mindclash, and other violent sports, let's imagine that some of those Ishukone employees at the NOH club get into a little drunken debate with some patriots from a Lai Dai group. It gets heated, and then someone gets hit. Suddenly, you've got others joining in for a brawl. They don't know why or by whom it started, but now it's 'my clan' against 'your clan', and that's all that matters. ...Until the Peace and Order Unit cops show up.

[orange]

CPD Announces Auction Winners - useful link for discussing who cares about what when it comes to FW.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Is this where I post this again?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Dialogues

While I clearly disagree with some of the stuff CCP has published featuring the Caldari, I think the majority of what we've seen tends to fit with my view of the Caldari as a very Japanese-style culture which praises stoicism and spartan living (though it doesn't always live up to those ideals, in many cases), where duty -- to the State, corporation, and family (in that order) -- is supposed to come first (but clearly does not always), and where, in general, most Caldari tend to take the long view.

I do not think the individual is a particularly strong concept in Caldari society -- people are expected to put the needs of the larger group ahead of their own needs, and there is immense pressure to "fit in." This was, after all, the root of the Hethist uprising as well as Mens Reppola's stock buy (tying Ishukone's success to his own welfare). My thinking is pretty close to Gotti's on this topic.

Riffing on the Japanese influence, remember that while there's a lot of repression and conformity in Japanese culture, there's still plenty of rebellion within that context and that even uptight sararimen can get kind of crazy at the karaoke bars after work. Overall, though, the Caldari are unlikely to tolerate nonconformists outside of the specific "acceptable" venues.

[Hamish Grayson]

There is an anecdote in The Sword and the Chrysanthemum about a Japanese salaryman who was shunned by his co-workers and neighbors for buying an expensive flashy car  when everyone else drove pretty much the same make and model.    He woke up one morning to find that it had been vandalized and was forced to buy the same car everyone else had.   
It wasn’t that his co-workers and neighbors couldn’t afford  the flashy car, it’s that everyone at his pay grade was expected to drive a certain type of car.


Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

Honne (本音?) refers to a person's true feelings and desires. These may be contrary to what is expected by society or what is required according to one's position and circumstances, and they are often kept hidden, except with one's closest friends.

Tatemae (建前?), literally "façade," is the behavior and opinions one displays in public. Tatemae is what is expected by society and required according to one's position and circumstances, and these may or may not match one's honne.

The honne/tatemae divide is considered to be of paramount importance in Japanese culture.[1] The very fact that Japanese have single words for these concepts leads some Nihonjinron specialists to see this conceptualization as evidence of greater complexity and rigidity in Japanese etiquette and culture.

[Nascent]

Honne (本音?) refers to a person's true feelings and desires. These may be contrary to what is expected by society or what is required according to one's position and circumstances, and they are often kept hidden, except with one's closest friends.

Tatemae (建前?), literally "façade," is the behavior and opinions one displays in public. Tatemae is what is expected by society and required according to one's position and circumstances, and these may or may not match one's honne.

The honne/tatemae divide is considered to be of paramount importance in Japanese culture.[1] The very fact that Japanese have single words for these concepts leads some Nihonjinron specialists to see this conceptualization as evidence of greater complexity and rigidity in Japanese etiquette and culture.

There's a good example of this in the Freakonomics documentary, specifically a segment about corruption in Sumo.  Instantly reminded me of the Caldari megacorps.

[Bureeiku]

I get the whole background in cyberpunk that Svetlana brings, and some of the more overt Japanese carryovers.  But I'm still muddy on how internal conflicts arise and are dealt with.  Heth's rise to power was certainly an oddity, in such a system.  Why did it even get press? I did not read the novels, so I'm likely missing something.  I heard there was some super spy non sequitur who orchestrated the whole thing for unknown reasons (lame).  

But nevermind that for the moment.  Are all 'conflicts' handled under-the-table?  It stands to reason that the Caldari would not appreciate the public airing of laundry, dirty or not.

Edit: I would make concessions on the nominal Caldari cultural response for the capsuleer approach, since it would have to shoehorn into the game mechanics and existing 'culture'.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I get the whole background in cyberpunk that Svetlana brings, and some of the more overt Japanese carryovers.  But I'm still muddy on how internal conflicts arise and are dealt with.  Heth's rise to power was certainly an oddity, in such a system.  Why did it even get press? I did not read the novels, so I'm likely missing something.  I heard there was some super spy non sequitur who orchestrated the whole thing for unknown reasons (lame).

Part of the problem with Heth situation was that it was so out of character for the Caldari on multiple fronts, and it was so hamhanded and blundering in its portrayal of the Caldari megacorporations. If someone were to ask me what would happen if someone led a violent strike at the flagship operation of one of the megacorp subsidiaries, and the CEO and his management had been as lax as they were portrayed in TEA...well, if I was Haatakan Oiritsuu, first thing I did would be to lock down the entire system and keep anyone who wasn't my bought and paid for media from the scene. Then I'd have agreed to a bunch of concessions for the workers to short-circuit the most glaring complaints, granted amnesty for everyone that returned to work, and then tell the workers that anyone who continued to violate their contract would be fired. Then, order Home Guard riot police to go in and take out anyone who decided they were going to resist.

After that, I'd can everyone and their mother in the management chain at Caldari Construction and send them to some shitty post on the ass-end of Caldari space after throwing a few to the CBT to show what happens when you lose perspective on what is important.

To everyone outside Kaalakiota and Caldari Constructions management, they'd probably just hear there's some labor problems due to poor management, and those responsible were sacked for their disgraceful conduct by the benevolent KK management, and the plant is back in operation. Tibus Heth would either be co-opted by management or dealt with quietly.

To put it succinctly, TonyG wrote something considerably different. You should really go back and at least read the news for 2008 to get the picture of what happened.

But nevermind that for the moment.  Are all 'conflicts' handled under-the-table?  It stands to reason that the Caldari would not appreciate the public airing of laundry, dirty or not.

Edit: I would make concessions on the nominal Caldari cultural response for the capsuleer approach, since it would have to shoehorn into the game mechanics and existing 'culture'.

Generally, I'd say that yes, most internal conflicts are handled quietly. The Caldari megacorporations can knife each other to death in the shadows and argue vehemently behind the closed doors of the CEP halls, but they have to present a united front to the rest of the world, and smile politely in public. Maintaining face becomes more important the higher up in Caldari society you get, so CEOs must maintain strong discipline and appear completely in control. Polite disagreement is probably about all you will see between two feuding CEOs, even when they are doing everything in their power to undermine each other. They can't afford to burn bridges, since at some point in the future, they may have to work together. If I'm the Lai Dai CEO, and I humiliate the Sukuuvestaa CEO in public, it become very hard to walk that back -- the Sukuuvestaa CEO can never work with me again because to do so would only compound the humiliation. It would make SuVee look even weaker, and they can't afford that. So Lai Dai would have essentially cut itself off from ever dealing with SuVee productively in the future.

Longstanding grudges and fighting in public isn't good for business either -- money being dumped into security and military equipment, training troops, and intelligence operations is all overhead. It's money not being put into future investment, in expanding business, or being put in the pockets of workers and shareholders.

For people outside the halls of power, face becomes less important, but it is still a central part of Caldari culture; the consequences for losing it just aren't as dire.

[Chowda]

The Heth developments could have been worked in beautifully if they hadn't broken the #1 rule of game setting tie-ins and break the universe that people have been playing in.  Let me explain:

Tibus Heth could have seen what he saw, had the same views he had, and carried out the same exact rebellion if Caldari Constructions was one of the bad corporations dragging the State down.  There would have been nothing wrong with the setup if they "were doing it wrong".

Instead of The Agent, Heth could have been presented an offer by agents of the CEP instead.  They already had Home Guard boots on the ground, would have been quite easy.  The CEP already saw the need to revitalize the State, but if any one corporation took the lead, they feared the other seven megacorps would gang up on them politically and economically.

The agents of the CEP convince Heth they know what it means to be Caldari, and run their corps as such.  In return, Heth proves to them he is "the real deal".  He was planning on dying a martyr soon after anyway.  It would have been seen as an even better result for Heth and an opportunistic CEP taking full advantage of the situation.   

The CEP already had plans to retake Caldari Prime and ninja colonize Black Rise.  Again, no megacorp is sticking their necks out due to distrust of the others.  So, they dust off an old plan to create a new megacorp, funded by a large cache well-laundered money and funds raised from the hostile takeover of CC that they conducted (not The Broker). 

This new corporation's purpose would be to promote State nationalism and culture and would be a beacon to those disenfranchised workers in less successful corps to "serve a higher purpose".  The new corporation is the State Protectorate, the leader/figurehead is Heth.  It is also designed to lash out at the enemies of the State, with plans to throw it under the bus if the heat got too high from other empires.

Come to find out later, all the CEP edicts came about by 5-3 votes and the Liberals aren't at all happy.  With the potential for a new ninth megacorp, they begin making plans to catch up to their Patriot politically as they have to get two corps on their side now to form a controlling majority.  Close with a scene where Heth thinks he's controlling the CEP, not the other way around.


And voila!  Nearly all the major events of TEA happen and The State isn't broken.

 

[Mithfindel]

Except that the CEP isn't the government, it is a panel for the corporate executives and then staff that run some simple bureaucracy. CEP leaders and policymakers are the eight megacorporate CEOs. Intervention to other mega's matters could lead into violence (see Lai Dai vs. SuVee events, where they had a bit of a shadow war bombing each other).

What is funny here, though, is Ytiri almost immediately siding with Heth. They're former smugglers, possibly pirates. Similarly, Guristas knew pretty much instantly when the war broke out. I'd possibly explore that angle. And what's wonderful, it isn't possibly even contradictory with the Tony fic.

[Chowda]

Except that the CEP isn't the government, it is a panel for the corporate executives and then staff that run some simple bureaucracy. CEP leaders and policymakers are the eight megacorporate CEOs.

Sure, but the CEP does dictate some State direction, does it not?  How does the Navy get its operating orders?  And are there not backroom maneuverings and secret motives?

The point of my post was to show you can change a game world through fiction without breaking it.  It all depends on the level in which the changes take place.  In TEA, it is above the Caldari system, steamrolling it.  In my example, the existing Caldari authorities order the change using Heth to implement it.