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Author Topic: The State and sexuality  (Read 18377 times)

Zag

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The State and sexuality
« on: 10 Aug 2010, 01:02 »

Just stumbled across a snippet mission brief from a Caldari COSMOS:

Note the mission and agent is:

The Lai Dai Research Project - Rogue Drone Risk - (3 of 3)

Matani Jitainen - A female Civire

Quote from: Matani Jitainen: Mission Brief
From their hives in Okkelen they launch their attacks against any human presence they can find. It's one of the reason's my wife didn't want me to take this job … maybe I should have listened to her after all. …

So what I'm wondering in regards to attitudes towards sexuality in the State is in regards to same-sex affairs. Would there be cultural bias against it but the Megacorps. could legally care less about the whole thing so long as the partners remain productive members of the corporation? Or people in the State could honestly care less? Can they just put their genetic material on a petrie dish and have tube children?

Thoughts?
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lallara zhuul

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #1 on: 10 Aug 2010, 01:57 »

Never underestimate the CCPs capability to overlook the fine details.

The mission text is probably not connected to the sex of the agent.
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Zag

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #2 on: 10 Aug 2010, 02:08 »

Never underestimate the CCPs capability to overlook the fine details.

The mission text is probably not connected to the sex of the agent.

Oh no doubt, but I still find it an interesting point of discussion in regards to the intersection of the personal and professional lives of State citizens and general attitudes towards sexuality in the State.

Would it be frowned upon because they're not adding to the citizenry of the Megacorps?
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BloodBird

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #3 on: 10 Aug 2010, 04:08 »

Zag, have you not read this?

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07

Says it all really, but I don't imagine that, if your homosexual in the State, you want it to be known. Ties in with the whole "Trillions of Federals, billions of State citizens" thing - if population count is a cause for worry to the point where artificial re-creation is used, NOT doing your re-creational duties for the State would likely be frowned on.

As a start.

Also, this; "CCP's agent-mission generator can't separate from the sexes of the agents" +1.
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Boma Airaken

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #4 on: 10 Aug 2010, 04:23 »

IIRC there is a Guristas officer who was kicked out of the Caldari Navy for being the gay.

I kind of like the whole "shut the fuck up about it or go pirate" theme.
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Boma Airaken

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #5 on: 10 Aug 2010, 04:26 »

Kaikka Peunato

Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence. Threat level: Deadly
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Zag

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #6 on: 10 Aug 2010, 04:57 »

Well, I'll put it down to the State having a, "Don't ask, don't tell" policy in effect and try not to point out the rather amusing fact made by failed mission generation that the State only appears to take issue with relationships between two men and not two women.  :lol:
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Vieve

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #7 on: 10 Aug 2010, 05:04 »

Also, this; "CCP's agent-mission generator can't separate from the sexes of the agents" +1.


Can't blame the agent-mission generator for this one.  This is a COSMOS mission.  It's the only one that agent offers.
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BloodBird

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #8 on: 10 Aug 2010, 06:05 »

Also, this; "CCP's agent-mission generator can't separate from the sexes of the agents" +1.


Can't blame the agent-mission generator for this one.  This is a COSMOS mission.  It's the only one that agent offers.

In other words, this was either a fuck-up from whomsoever wrote the mission, a subtle and intended line of PF reffering text and Zag is right, or...

Actually, just those two options exist then, unless I've missed something.
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orange

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #9 on: 10 Aug 2010, 07:08 »

A topic similar to this was brought up at one time, so I am hopefully going to repeat some comments.

Zag, have you not read this?

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07
Says it all really, but I don't imagine that, if your homosexual in the State, you want it to be known.
I think the sexual orientation of the executives is what pops out at the reader initially, since it is a modern issue.  What people read over is the two executives mentioned are from different corporations; two very powerful, competing, corporations - KK & SuVee.  The second is the source of the conflict and why the two executives are charged with corruption.  It could have been a heterosexual relationship with the same result.

Ties in with the whole "Trillions of Federals, billions of State citizens" thing - if population count is a cause for worry to the point where artificial [conception] is used, NOT doing your recreational duties for the State would likely be frowned on.
This is predicated on traditional conception being the most effective means of producing children, which it is not.   I do not think the TubeChild program was the beginning of artificial pregnancy,  I think it add the creation of parent-less children.

For example, in the Federation, I can see children being grown in artificial wombs in order to free the mother to do whatever it is she wants to do.  In the State, it frees the mother to continue being a productive member of society.

I think it is fair to detach the act of romantic/pleasurable/recreational sex from the conception of children in both Federal and State societies.

Quote from: Zag
Well, I'll put it down to the State having a, "Don't ask, don't tell" policy in effect and try not to point out the rather amusing fact made by failed mission generation that the State only appears to take issue with relationships between two men and not two women.  LOL
I do not think it does.   It is more about your relationships (regardless of who with) impacting your corporate duties and the perception of your effectiveness and loyalty to the corporation.

In other words, this was either a fuck-up from whomsoever wrote the mission, a subtle and intended line of PF reffering text and Zag is right, or...

Actually, just those two options exist then, unless I've missed something.
You missed something.  The chronicle is not about Caldari cultural not embracing diverse sexuality, but rather corporate culture not embracing cross-corporate romantic relationships.

Caldari culture does not care about your romantic relationship, unless it creates a risk to a larger group.

In the Chronicle, a KK and a SuVee executive were sleeping together and possibly sharing corporate secrets.  Even the simple - "How was your day?" - could put proprietary corporate information at risk.  The CFO saying "it was a bad day" potentially indicates the corporation is in a tough position financial for example.  Their relationship put more than themselves at risk, it put their corporations at risk without their knowledge.
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Lillith Blackheart

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #10 on: 10 Aug 2010, 07:36 »

Also, this; "CCP's agent-mission generator can't separate from the sexes of the agents" +1.


Can't blame the agent-mission generator for this one.  This is a COSMOS mission.  It's the only one that agent offers.

In other words, this was either a fuck-up from whomsoever wrote the mission, a subtle and intended line of PF reffering text and Zag is right, or...

Actually, just those two options exist then, unless I've missed something.


It's also possible the agent's gender changed over the course of the game since the COSMOS mission existed.

Stranger things have happened.
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Zag

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #11 on: 10 Aug 2010, 12:25 »

What I tend to think is that while there may be a degree of cultural bias in the State it does not necessarily translate into corporate bias against same-sex, or indeed any form of non-traditional relationship or expression of sexuality. There might be expectations, at least publicly, to maintain the pretense of adhering to public expectations and cultural norms. Prejudices probably exist, but so long as the participants remain productive and valuable members then corporate interference would be dependent on the exact nature of the relationship and it impact on the greater whole. There might be snickers around the water coolers but so long as personal relationships don't affect working relationships then there should not be an issue.

Also, corporate attitudes to non-traditional relationships and sexuality might vary from Mega to Mega. Lai Dai corporate culture might be less inclined to intercede in the marriage of two women (I've always thought of Lai Dai culture being something akin to progressive traditionalists) but Kaalakiota , Wiyrkomi and Hyasyoda might frown upon such a relationship as their corporate cultures appear to be more conservative with a greater expectation to adhere to cultural and traditional norms.
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Seriphyn

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #12 on: 10 Aug 2010, 12:50 »

For starters, I'm going to approach this from an EVE context, not a RL one, where there is a consensus regarding the morality of homosexuality.

I quite imagine the Practical faction not permitting it. Why would they? It's not practical at all, and what would be the point of it? EVE isn't exactly politically correct, or meant to be (mass slave-lynching on Sarum Prime for example), and I can imagine that some factions and sub-factions do not like homosexuality at all. I mean, just because homosexuality is morally permissible IRL, doesn't mean EVE has it as so. Considering Jin-Mei women were unequal to men before the Gallente came along, anything is possible to be prejudiced against.

As for the State, the Caldari Navy at least maintains an anti-homosexuality policy. If the Liberals want to be cohesive with other nations, like the Federation, I can imagine them being more lenient, as it sounds Gallente to be all like "your status of homosexual people is poor!".

It's a curious subject which I think CCP hasn't touched on due to OOG sensitivities. As if the white-race-enslaving-the-black-race wasn't enough lol  :roll:
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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #13 on: 10 Aug 2010, 13:24 »

These discussions make me cringe.

If you're looking for a meaning, you'll find one even when there wasn't meant to be one. Trying to classify and narrow everything down without explicit cannon clarifying the issue is a matter of perspective at the end and doesn't make it any more TRUTH than if x community agrees with you or not. Unless you're role-playing a homosexual Deteis man exiled from the State because he couldn't do his 'duty' to have children (or maybe he did, and he just doesn't like it), I'm not sure how this makes a lick of difference one way or another.

I mean, it's one thing to speculate about it, and might even be an interesting topic for debate, but you aren't going to find the answer...
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Silver Night

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Re: The State and sexuality
« Reply #14 on: 10 Aug 2010, 15:04 »

I'm going to talk about this mostly in broad terms, rather than focusing on homosexuality so much, because as Kaleigh says it isn't like we are going to get an answer, and also

[admin]You should tread carefully, in this kind of discussion for, I think, obvious reasons.[/admin]


There is a fairly important point to be made, though, about this kind of issue, in the State. I think Zag touched on it: Essentially, the difference between the idea of 'State' culture and corporate culture.

Different cultural norms and taboos will probably be most evident along corporate lines, rather than State or political 'faction' lines. The 'political' factions seem to be largely just that - political and economic. They may or may not have anything to do with how a corporation deals with its citizens, and while there is no doubt an impact, the corporations are themselves before they are Practical, Liberal, or Patriot.

For example: Ishukone and Hyasyoda are both 'liberal' corporations, however Hyasyoda is extremely 'traditional' in much of its internal culture. It probably has more in common with KK, in that area, than with Ishukone.

Another example: NOH and Suvee are 'practical' - but all that means is that they put business first on a corporate scale. They are in different businesses and very likely have entirely different cultures internally. I would suggest incidentally, Seriphyn, that it isn't particularly practical to interfere in the lives of their employees where it doesn't impact those employee's productivity (and indeed, happy employees are probably more productive employees.) That being said, we've no idea what the actual situation is, because we simply have very few clues as to what the internal cultures are like.

Ultimately, I think that homosexuality being to some degree or another a taboo in the Caldari Navy is indicative of just that - homosexuality being a taboo to some extent or another in the Caldari Navy.
« Last Edit: 10 Aug 2010, 15:30 by Silver Night »
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