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[Esna Pitoojee]

I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.

Dude. I now love you.

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

Yes, this is what I saw in it as well. 

[Matariki Rain]

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

But what's the connection with bad marks? And how on the thousand worlds did people get bad marks and then gather there during the enslavement? Why would Amarr-owned Matari be allowed to have marks when they weren't allowed to have tattoos? ("The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.") Why would badly-marked but free Matari -- often only tenuously free -- travel through Empire space to find refuge rather than finding it outside either the republic or the Empire? (Gallente space seems a good move, here.)

I assume the idea is "I killed my lover and her tribe when I bombarded her planet from orbit, and then did some small dramatic thing to help assuage/enshrine my guilt (which just happened to stick it to an aspect of her culture that I didn't find rich and intriguing)", but... is that it?

Idonis' lover was Starkmanir, pre-successful-rebellion, and presumably unfree. These factors mean I'd be surprised if she'd had a Voluval mark, or, actually, any exposure to the Voluval ceremony. I can't really see Amarrian Holders permitting a heathen rite like that, or allowing access to their livestock for some shaman to do the ceremony. (It's not "benign" and pacifying like the Lutinlir, which had strategic benefit to the slave traders and slave owners.) I also can't see slave owners permitting their livestock to shun and exile some other (expensive) livestock because of something that happened as a result of this mystic mumbo-jumbo.

So who was having a Voluval ceremony? When did Vo'Shun begin?

Those two chronicles -- Khumaak and The Outcast -- suggest a view of a Matari enclave on an Amarrian world where Matari first preserved a "rich culture" and then somehow gathered despite it being a communications black hole: how did they even know to go there? Those are both quite at odds with my mental image of how things worked, so it's one of the perplexities of PF for me. Clearly I need to find a way to reconcile them, but it's ... deeply odd.

How complete was the Amarrian occupation? How much of pre-Day-of-Darkness Matari culture (if any) survived the 800-odd years of enslavement as a living tradition? "Still deeply rooted in tribal folklore and steeped in tradition, the Minmatar often attract scorn for the seemingly barbaric rituals they cling on to" and references to their "rich culture" 500 years after the Day of Darkness just don't ring true with most of the rest of what we hear of Amarrian slave-holding, including the much more likely-sounding description of Vo'shun as "Ruled entirely by tribal law adapted and modified from Minmatar folklore". That suggests to me what I think is the more realistic situation with free Matari now: we're making this up as we go along, in diverse ways, with a century of attempts behind us and more being spawned each week.

Slightly rambling here. This is some fairly fundamental stuff where it feels like we're trying to join the dots to connect what are really some quite different notions of how things were. It'd be nice to have some sort of guidance about norms and exceptions.

[lallara zhuul]

Nefantar.

Treacherous Nefantar.

Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.

They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.

The Ammatar was born.

They bowed and scraped to the Amarrians while swinging the whip on their own kind. Looking away from some 'barbaric' customs that they felt were essential to the Minmatar people and explained it to the Amarrians as a way of keeping them pacified and more servile. Constantly feeding the independence of the Minmatar people while they were being 'imprisoned by their own kind'. There is no such thing as a noble savage, to be a noble savage, one must be taught to be one. Ammatars were the quiet godfathers and godmothers whom did not spare the rod when the parents were around but left candy under the pillow.

That is how the Minmatar culture survived.

That is how the rebellion succeeded, the Nefantar planned the whole event, spent centuries amassing resources for the fleets, building information and communication networks for the rebels so that they whole thing could be synchronized across the Largest Empire in the Universe.

When the edict to eradicate the Starkmanir came, they did what they did best, they took a whole bunch of them, changed their lineages in the Amarrian records and hid them for centuries upon centuries until the idiotic Sisters of EVE blew their cover.

Of course some of them drank the Kool-Aid and became true believers of the Amarrian Faith, but those who were in danger of doing so never knew anything.

Because Nefantar are best at what they do, even so good that they can deceive themselves.

Isty is a noob compared to them.

PS. Vo'shoun are a player generated concept later become part of Canon. I think Sarkos and co. created it.

[hellgremlin]

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

But what's the connection with bad marks? And how on the thousand worlds did people get bad marks and then gather there during the enslavement? Why would Amarr-owned Matari be allowed to have marks when they weren't allowed to have tattoos? ("The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice.") Why would badly-marked but free Matari -- often only tenuously free -- travel through Empire space to find refuge rather than finding it outside either the republic or the Empire? (Gallente space seems a good move, here.)

I assume the idea is "I killed my lover and her tribe when I bombarded her planet from orbit, and then did some small dramatic thing to help assuage/enshrine my guilt (which just happened to stick it to an aspect of her culture that I didn't find rich and intriguing)", but... is that it?

Idonis' lover was Starkmanir, pre-successful-rebellion, and presumably unfree. These factors mean I'd be surprised if she'd had a Voluval mark, or, actually, any exposure to the Voluval ceremony. I can't really see Amarrian Holders permitting a heathen rite like that, or allowing access to their livestock for some shaman to do the ceremony. (It's not "benign" and pacifying like the Lutinlir, which had strategic benefit to the slave traders and slave owners.) I also can't see slave owners permitting their livestock to shun and exile some other (expensive) livestock because of something that happened as a result of this mystic mumbo-jumbo.

So who was having a Voluval ceremony? When did Vo'Shun begin?

Those two chronicles -- Khumaak and The Outcast -- suggest a view of a Matari enclave on an Amarrian world where Matari first preserved a "rich culture" and then somehow gathered despite it being a communications black hole: how did they even know to go there? Those are both quite at odds with my mental image of how things worked, so it's one of the perplexities of PF for me. Clearly I need to find a way to reconcile them, but it's ... deeply odd.

How complete was the Amarrian occupation? How much of pre-Day-of-Darkness Matari culture (if any) survived the 800-odd years of enslavement as a living tradition? "Still deeply rooted in tribal folklore and steeped in tradition, the Minmatar often attract scorn for the seemingly barbaric rituals they cling on to" and references to their "rich culture" 500 years after the Day of Darkness just don't ring true with most of the rest of what we hear of Amarrian slave-holding, including the much more likely-sounding description of Vo'shun as "Ruled entirely by tribal law adapted and modified from Minmatar folklore". That suggests to me what I think is the more realistic situation with free Matari now: we're making this up as we go along, in diverse ways, with a century of attempts behind us and more being spawned each week.

Slightly rambling here. This is some fairly fundamental stuff where it feels like we're trying to join the dots to connect what are really some quite different notions of how things were. It'd be nice to have some sort of guidance about norms and exceptions.

There is no connection between Idonis' Starkmanir lover and the bad marks at all. His lover was merely a point of regret; perhaps humanity. When Arkon Ardishapur died, Idonis went from "son of a royal heir" to "royal heir" with all the responsibilities it entailed. The first of which was unfortunately annihilating his lover's race. Put yourself in his shoes, in orbit of Starkman Prime, as it burned. Continents re-arranging themselves... projected population dropping on your battleship's displays... the likelihood of your favourite slave being incinerated rising with each salvo... and here you are in command of it all. Almost makes you want to put a stop to it all with a binding Imperial edict, which you now have the authority to issue, doesn't it?

Also, the outcast colony is a fairly "new thing" speaking Eve-historically; it wasn't around during the rebellion yet - the subtle implication being that people with bad marks in Minmatar history weren't ALWAYS afforded the kindness of exile, but instead fell victim to a far quicker solution.

I actually don't understand voluval marks, or the 'lottery' inherent to them. I don't know why people get the mark that they get. I just tried to explore a "what would happen to them" scenario.

(btw, in all my writing for CCP there is a degree of intentional vagueness - you have to leave out a lot of details, because details can mean conflict with CCP's established fiction. Hence the "sneaking it in"... there are blanks meant for others to fill. Don't think of the chron as some cuttingly accurate demographic documentation; all it really is, is a story that says "there's a small colony of outcasts on a crappy planet somewhere. here's a bit of history behind it.")

[hellgremlin]

Isty is a noob compared to them.

PS. Vo'shoun are a player generated concept later become part of Canon. I think Sarkos and co. created it.

Hehehe... almost:

http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c4_reclamation.php

This was written in 2002. Before the alpha test if I recall correctly. RP event of sorts between Endless Corporation (Caldari, evil businessmen) and Sabaoth Inc (Amarr, evil slavers) vs. Oracle (Minmatar freedom fighters, spiritual precursor to Ushra'Khan of sorts.)

There was a great Minmatar writer by the name of TheDeviant in EC, who quit Eve ages ago. Another fellow named Thundercloud, who IRL was with the 82nd Airborne, and if memory serves, did a great deal of writing from Iraq. I think at the time, Vo'shun was a sort of underground railroad; a series of hidden stations.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Nefantar.

Treacherous Nefantar.

Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.

They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.

The Ammatar was born.

This makes sense to me. Although I suspect the conspiracy to undermine Amarrian rule was limited to a small part of the leaders of the tribe. How else could they maintain security for so long?

I like the idea because in one way it's quite heartening that a group of people could give up so much and endure becoming pariahs to protect their kin. And, at the same time, it's very sad that so few tribal Matari would accept the idea these days. Also it's sad because so many of the Nefantar would have lost touch with who they truly where, witness those that stayed loyal to the empire in the Mandate and those that worship the Amarrian god.

Not to mention the carnage wrought during the vindication border war between the Republic and the Mandate.

[Ulphus]

Nefantar.

Treacherous Nefantar.

Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.

They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.

The Ammatar was born.

This makes sense to me. Although I suspect the conspiracy to undermine Amarrian rule was limited to a small part of the leaders of the tribe. How else could they maintain security for so long?

I like the idea because in one way it's quite heartening that a group of people could give up so much and endure becoming pariahs to protect their kin. And, at the same time, it's very sad that so few tribal Matari would accept the idea these days. Also it's sad because so many of the Nefantar would have lost touch with who they truly where, witness those that stayed loyal to the empire in the Mandate and those that worship the Amarrian god.

It doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe that "a tribe" can decide this stuff. Even if a council of chiefs decided in private that this would be the thing to do, I'd expect that for the vast majority of Nefantar, they really were the slave masters for the Amarr, because that's all they were told. Any claim that they did it for the good of the tribes, (honest, Guv) seems to me to be a rationalisation after the fact.

Perhaps I'm just cynical.

Oh, and on OOC the other night someone pointed out that the PF had been retconned in 2009, and that at the time of the rebellion there were still unconquered Matari fighting on against the Amarr. This rather confuses me now, as I didn't notice this at the time, and it rather changes a lot of assumptions that underpin ideas I had about how Matari culture works. I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet, but it does make me wonder whether maybe if the Nefantar had fought too, rather than collaborating, they'd have saved more culture?

[Graanvlokkie]

Granted capsuleers would be more free to think independently and speak independently than most rank-and-file civilians, but it just seems odd to me the extensive number of non-spiritual Matari players and anti-slavery, or "I have some slaves but it's not that bad and I treat them really well" sorts of Amarrians.  *shrug*

Most abusers don't see themselves as abusers, so it's not at all unlikely that many slavers would see themselves as doing their slaves a favour.

This holds IC, definitely.

The problematic cases (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that we should not think them as bad guys (IC or OOC), because really they are quite fluffy and don't mean harm and have good justifications for what they are doing.

Another problematic case (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that certain factions are the bad guys (IC or OOC), while failing to recognise or acknoledge the fact that none of the factions are the good guys and their particular faction is guilty of similar atrocities. 

[lallara zhuul]

Well, in pre-retcon/TonyG times it would have been more logical worldwise for the Nefantar to actually have a conspiracy that spanned over a thousand years.

Than what probably is the reason behind the starkmanir surviving and the minnie culture being seemingly unscathed by thousand years of repression.

Which is... as you guessed, the Elders and the Enheduanni.

There is no space for cultural reconstruction of the Minmatar with the 'benign' help of the Federation within the current storyline paradigm.
Nor, for pretty much anything that players have pieced together from the PF or old player generated content.

[Ulphus]

Well, in pre-retcon/TonyG times it would have been more logical worldwise for the Nefantar to actually have a conspiracy that spanned over a thousand years.

I have difficulty believing any sort of conspiracy can last a thousand years. I have difficulty believing it can last fifty.

Which is... as you guessed, the Elders and the Enheduanni.

I thought the Enheduanni were something that practically nobody knew about (so I've been mostly ignoring them as irrelevant IC) am I wrong? Are they actually common knowledge?

The Elders are now pretty well known about, well, that they exist. I'm not sure if details about them are at all public knowledge.

Another problematic case (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that certain factions are the bad guys (IC or OOC), while failing to recognise or acknoledge the fact that none of the factions are the good guys and their particular faction is guilty of similar atrocities. 

There are scales. I think OOC that slavery as practiced by the vikings was significantly better than slavery as practiced by the North American colonials. But they were both slavery.

In Eve, I think OOC that Sansha are significantly worse than Angels, as an example, though the Angels aren't particularly nice. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that slavery as practiced by the Sansha is worse than that (generally) practiced by the Amarrians (although some of the Vitoc stuff hits many of the same buttons). But those are probably due to my personal bugbears about altering personality; altering the self; via drugs, surgery or implants.

I think (OOC) that Tribalism is pretty fucked up, and a cause of much misery in the current world, and in the Matari society (but IC it's the best thing since sliced bread; this is one of my major cognitive dissonances with my character), Just because I think that doesn't mean that I think that it's anywhere near as bad as what Sansha offers.

So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys.  Do you think that's unreasonable?

[Ciarente]

So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys.  Do you think that's unreasonable?

Personally, I don't think holding an OOC opinion is unreasonable. I do think it's unreasonable when, as I've seen pop up in OOC channels occasionally, people characterize those who disagree with their OOC opinions as unreasonable, rather than simply people who who hold differing opinions.

I've picked up the general impression that Amarr, Caldari and Sansha players are on the receiving end of a disproportional amount of pressure to 'admit' their characters are hypocrites or else really sekritly evil. I don't think it's unreasonable for an Amarr player to say 'My character justifies his slave-holding by X, and in his view he's actually virtuous.' 

'Yeah but you have to admit he's really evil', without any intent to engage in a discussion of what is 'evil' and how motivations and perceptions interact with a (dubious) external reality, is a lot closer to harassment than debate in my opinion, and militates against nuanced and sophisticated character generation and role-play.

OOC I think the Angels are the real evil in Eve, but that's because they're people traffickers, and people traffickers press my buttons in a way that imaginary cyborgation doesn't.    And I can imagine being seduced by the idea that at least some people would be better off with TCMCs, willing or not, although it's not a view Cia(c) holds - violent repeat offenders, people with disorders that make them incapable of consent who can't be treated by other means, my neighbor who thinks parking his SUV on the footpath blocking my gate is  a perfectly reasonable thing to do ... I can see the slippery slope someone could go down, even if I believe that ethically even the first step on that slope is unacceptable.

I can't imagine thinking shipping people off for forced prostitution, i.e. rape for another's monetary gain, is anything other than evil.

However, I don't expect Angel RPers to burst into OOC mea culpas on behalf of their characters every time the subject comes up, any more than I expect Minmatar RPers to burst into OOC mea culpas every time the negative aspects of tribal government come up, or Gallente about burning people alive, or etc etc and etc.

Finally, the only instances I have ever seen of Sansha players claiming OOC that their characters were harmless, fluffly cuddly bunnies were complete with <shifty eyes> and <backing towards the door> emotes that made it clear the tone of the interaction was lighthearted OOC foolery.

[orange]

There are scales. I think OOC that slavery as practiced by the vikings was significantly better than slavery as practiced by the North American colonials. But they were both slavery.

Interesting statement considering the records regarding Viking slavery tend to be much rarer and written by Vikings or by non-slaves in cultures that had slaves.  N. American slavery on the other hand has extensive records written in some cases by those who opposed the practice and later on by former slaves.  The N. American memory is significantly closer with the descendants of slaves able to point at great-great-grandpa/ma and say he was born a slave.

All the above goes into the discussion of defining "evil."  Perspective matters, absolutes are hard to come by.

[Graanvlokkie]

So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys.  Do you think that's unreasonable?

Yes. My reasoning is in my post you replied to.

Fake Edit:
Ill reply in more detail perhaps when not posting from my phone.

Real Edit:
I think Ciarente managed to capture a lot of my reasoning in her post, especially the following:

I've picked up the general impression that Amarr, Caldari and Sansha players are on the receiving end of a disproportional amount of pressure to 'admit' their characters are hypocrites or else really sekritly evil. I don't think it's unreasonable for an Amarr player to say 'My character justifies his slave-holding by X, and in his view he's actually virtuous.' 

'Yeah but you have to admit he's really evil', without any intent to engage in a discussion of what is 'evil' ...

I find the slavery example interesting, in that some types of slavery are better than others, some types of torture are better than others, some types of abuse are better than others.

You view "your" evil as better than "my" evil, making you the good guys? Then, because I wont admit OOC (or IC) I am the bad guys, and you are the good guys, it means I am twisted OOC and/or just an idiot because I try to defend my evil on an OOC level, which leads to OOC comments from some such as "there is no way you can defend yourself on an OOC level and say your character is not evil".

I am not saying that my character is not evil, or twisted, or emotionally disturbed, I am just saying that you can't ignore aspects of your own faction and then paint one faction as the bad guys and one as the good guys. All the OOC defenses put forward by the "bad guys" I have seen focuses not on trying to say that their faction is not evil, but just pointing out that those who are throwing the stones are not innocent themselves.

Which, brings me back to the general point in the OP. Don't point fingers while forgetting what your own faction is all about.

[lallara zhuul]

Thats the thing.

Lets take an example that is not from real life or from EVE.

Lets take the factions of one of my favourite sci-fi games of all time, Alpha Centauri.

Each and every faction has their own flavour, each faction gets their pros and cons from that flavour.

In the beginning of the game (or the history of the faction) only thing that the faction competes against is their natural surroundings.

Flourishing in a hostile environment is the first hurdle for all of them, each approach the dilemma in a different way and each and every one of them develops in a way that is suitable to their flavour, the pros and cons they have and according to the resources that they have at hand.

Next hurdle is encountering the first faction they encounter, how to keep them from attacking you, are you compatible, can you live in peace, do you need a large military to deter the possibility of attack, can you trade, can you become allies, can you just buy their friendship, will they betray you in the long run, will you pretend to be their friend and leech their resources and tech etc.

Then the whole thing goes global, you have to balance it all with all the factions and keep your back covered against the alliances of your peers and try to thrive in a hostile environment with potentially hostile other factions, which all have their flavours and ways of dealing with things.

In the world of Alpha Centauri you can get extra content with the Alien Crossfire, which adds two alien factions on the planet (also a lot of new player faction options arise) that are not interested in surviving on the planet, but taking control of it, by fulfilling their own goals (they have to gain access to some artifacts that enable them to control the whole planet and win the game.) They have higher tech level, they are hostile, and they would rather kill you than talk with you. Which adds a little bit of more flavour to the whole pot.

The point that I am making, in the beginning each and every faction is completely concentrated on survival, there is no moral issues involved in developing into a faction that survives/flourishes in a hostile environment, but it means that each faction creates their own morality while doing so (different choices in how you run your faction affect how other factions see you, friendly or an enemy.)

This is where it crosses over with EVE, each faction has flourished in a different kind of environment and has developed their own way of doing things, their own morality. None of them are good or bad, they have just made choices based on their 'flavour' during their path into an Empire, their morality is pretty much based on the conditions that the faction had to survive in after the collapse.

The problem is the factions that have risen _after_ the collapse.

Their development of morality consists of being in a universe where there is these big entities that you can feed upon, the option of being a parasite is part of the picture (you could argue that Amarrians are parasitic, but if you do, then you know nothing about the motivations of the Amarrians and their way of doing slavery.)

In these smaller factions their morality has developed on a completely different set of rules for survival than with their predecessors.

Which will naturally make them OOCly much more morally reprehensible towards a well socialized individual because they thrive on the suffering of their Fellow Man.

Only exception in the smaller factions are the Thukkers, they have developed in the Minmatar tribal structure and continued their own development when they gained the ability to travel in space, they are 'morally sound' in the way that the other smaller factions are not, because they lack the parasitic aspect of the other smaller factions. They may be a little dodgy, but that is only because their survival mechanisms are similar to the opportunistic Travellers/Gypsies of the real world (or Jawas of the Star Wars universe) where the law of possession is different for them.

But I am rambling, better go hunt for brekkies.

[DosTuMai]

Really, all this religion bashing gets tedious. How about we just say that my Winged Monkeys are the best and that you're all going to worship my holy stripy socks of win.