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[Louella Dougans]

people's selective atheism gets really old really fast.

the Caldari Starsmith, the Tea Maker, Intaki Reborn and the Ida, the entire Minmatar Voluval thing, the Sisters of EVE.

People rarely, if ever, have much to say against these things.

Yet they go all Dawkins against Amarr and amarr-derived religions, e.g. the Blood Raiders.

This gets very dull.

Particularly when it is a Minmatar or Intaki character expressing these Dawkins style arguments for the nonexistence of such things.

I do not see how you can argue against the existence of gods and/or supernatural things, whilst having a Voluval mark, or being an Intaki. Unless you are also calling the majority proportion of the Minmatar, and Intaki, also deluded irrational uneducated fools.

And that's before they start on the whole priests=paedophiles arguments. Which are similarly old, lame and tiresome.

If they continue with the whole priests=pedos, then in that case could argue that the entire Minmatar voluval-marked population were abused, given the nature of the ceremony, with shamans/mystics involved in "initiating a teenager into adulthood". Yes. Quite. Want to go down that road? I don't.

[Joshua Foiritain]

Whats your point?

Particularly when it is a Minmatar or Intaki character expressing these Dawkins style arguments for the nonexistence of such things.

I do not see how you can argue against the existence of gods and/or supernatural things, whilst having a Voluval mark, or being an Intaki. Unless you are also calling the majority proportion of the Minmatar, and Intaki, also deluded irrational uneducated fools.

I do, theres no rule that says all 200 trillion Intaki in this universe have to believe the same thing and technically the only thing wrong with calling people irrational uneducated fools for having certain opinions is thats its somewhat rude.

[Senn Typhos]

I have to doubt that is the Amarrian religion alone that causes the angst. Amarrians will always be tied with slavery, which will be tied with their theology, which will be tied with moralist crimes, and the whole trainwreck will call from the depths of the IGS every whining bleeding heart that wants to prove their progressivism.

Me, I avoid religion talk ICly as much as I avoid political talk ICly. Part one of that is the wisdom to not stick my hand in a bear trap. The other part of it is a lack of knowledge of any Caldari religion PF I can reference.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

While I agree that I am quite tired of the atheist anti-God discussions in EVE too and have a slightly different approach myself, I also have to point out that you are not the guy, Lou, who people come to bash the Minmatar spiritual beliefs and other savagery etc to. I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.

[KJLLV]

Having a religion that encourages racial supremacy mandated by Heaven coupled with centuries of enslaving anyone they come across causes Amarr to be the target for anti-theist attacks that require the least effort to make. It's an expansionist, monotheistic religion, which many people will comfortable shooting at as they're conditioned for it already in contemporary society.

[Aria Jenneth]

Yeah, New Eden's other religions (Sani Sabik/EoM aside) are generally pretty quiet by comparison.

[Louella Dougans]

Whats your point?

the point being that people don't seem to have an issue with playing characters who have to believe in some kind of supernatural thing, yet use arguments that deny the existence of any supernatural things.

from Vherokior descriptions "The ancient Voluval ritual, where the soul and karma of the person is revealed through the unexplained emergence of a body tattoo on the recipient, was created by Vherokior mystics."

so if a Minmatar character with a Voluval mark argues that there is no soul and such things, therefore the Amarr religion is wrong and is all just a fantasy, that there is no supernatural dimension, then what am I to make of that?

I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.

It's a lot less public then. Does not seem to happen on "The Summit", or on IGS.

[KJLLV]

from Vherokior descriptions "The ancient Voluval ritual, where the soul and karma of the person is revealed through the unexplained emergence of a body tattoo on the recipient, was created by Vherokior mystics."

so if a Minmatar character with a Voluval mark argues that there is no soul and such things, therefore the Amarr religion is wrong and is all just a fantasy, that there is no supernatural dimension, then what am I to make of that?

Start by recognising that there are multiple definitions of 'soul'. The person could disregard and attack the Amarrian concept of a separate entity called such that dwells within the body and receives judgement after the body dies, while simultaneously believing in an incorporeal defining essence of a person without it existing as separate or detached from the body.

[Elsebeth Rhiannon]

I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.

It's a lot less public then. Does not seem to happen on "The Summit", or on IGS.

The Summit has very few people who are willing to play hardcore Amarr or or other anti-Minmatar extremists and do that kind of stuff; even the few Amarrians there are the fluffy "ok so I might have a couple of slaves but they are more like volunteers really" kind, not the "your heathen ways blahblah" kind. We get the occasional patronizing Fed, at best.

IGS has some of that stuff, or has had over the years. I don't really read all that much of it so hard to say about the prevalence.

I guess part of why people do not do it in public is that OOC it is sort of PC for Westerners to be anti-monotheistic, but it is not so PC to bash quaint tribal ways, cos you have to be accepting to other cultures and stuff.

[Vieve]

people's selective atheism gets really old really fast.

the Caldari Starsmith, the Tea Maker, Intaki Reborn and the Ida, the entire Minmatar Voluval thing, the Sisters of EVE.

People rarely, if ever, have much to say against these things.

I've always imagined that calling the Intaki baby murdering savages in a public forum would be political suicide, at least in the Federation.  This is why Celeste doesn't do it in public.

[BloodBird]

I have to doubt that is the Amarrian religion alone that causes the angst. Amarrians will always be tied with slavery, which will be tied with their theology, which will be tied with moralist crimes, and the whole trainwreck will call from the depths of the IGS every whining bleeding heart that wants to prove their progressivism.

Me, I avoid religion talk ICly as much as I avoid political talk ICly. Part one of that is the wisdom to not stick my hand in a bear trap. The other part of it is a lack of knowledge of any Caldari religion PF I can reference.

Your mostly right here. The problem is not really the 'religion' per see, it's our western ideals and how they don't mesh well with 'slavery'. Beyond that the Amarrian faith is almost irrelevant to the issue; it's only somewhat relevant in the way it's the 'excuse' for slavery to exist in the Empire. The 'forgetful' atheists that Louella is annoyed with annoy me too at times as it's mostly “your religion is a lie to empower the slavers”, denying it's validity as a faith altogether and claiming that religion itself, is a lie, forgetting that this argument basically burn every other nation as well. Everyone has their faithful, but no faithful Jin-Mei seem to take offense to “religion is a lie” when told to an Amarrian's face by a Minmatar. Why? Because in that context people don't seem to realize he's claiming that all religion is false because one religion excuse slavery, it seems like he claims ONLY the Amarr religion is fake because it excuses slavery.

Having said that, I'd be more happy if you did not insult half the Amarrian RP player-base in your post. “Pro-slavery fanatics” and your “whining bleeding heart progressives” are basically on opposite sides of a spectrum with 'neutral on the slavery subject' smack in the middle. You just insulted everyone from the the middle, to the progressive end.

Way I see it, (Imperial) Amarr RP is broadly divided into these two groups, politically speaking. You got all the 'our country our ways, good or bad' crowd who can't be bothered with HOW the slaves are treated or even IF there are slaves at all so long as laws and traditions, etc. are followed. Ergo, the 'hardliners' who think things are fine as they are.

On the other side you have the 'progressives' who, while they may all be 100% loyal Imperials etc, believe that the system should be modified, abolished, improved or what have you. There is nothing wrong with this idea, though it might not mesh to well with the ideas many Minmatar and other characters have or like to have about the Empire. Nevertheless, in a constantly changing universe there is no reason why there would not be an increasing number of citizens who thing changing for the empire's better (as they see it) is a good idea and should be worked towards.

In the middle of these two politically opposite poles are all the Amarrian RP'ers who vote pro-Empire, and many others, nicely scattered around the spectrum. Where they all fall in regards to theology, faith and all other relevant things varies greatly. Nonetheless, the problem is slavery itself, both IC and OOC. So long as western society and the majority of Humanity itself thinks slavery is a bad thing, this will keep coloring Amarrian RP and all the things they touch up on. This keeps making 'progressive' Amarr RP something people want to try as they might feel bad IRL about RP'ing a more proactive slave-owner. Kuddos to those who do, I say. But even how much 'diet-coke' slavery progressives may or may not be in your eyes, or all our eyes, it's still a 'legit' way to RP, as is everything else.

Also, what Else said.

[Kaito Haakkainen]

Rebirth and the Voluval can be seen, if not understood, rather than blindly believed in.
They may be "mystical" but they do not require faith, nor does belief in them entail taking on an entire religious, moral, and legal system.

Certainly neither involves belief or denial in the existence of God or Gods.

The Amarr and Sani Sabik see the lions share of atheist resistance because of beliefs like the Reclaiming and the Harvest.
Few people really argue against religion unless it's out there trying to get them. The exception are "evangelical atheists" who seem to be just as hindered by faith in their reasoning as your average zealot.

To give a real world example I don't care if my neighbour is a Wiccan or Catholic or what they do in their own home or church. I certainly don't feel the need to argue with them over it. It doesn't affect me. However when the Jehovas Witnesses call, a Protestant sees fit to shout at me in town, or a Muslim extremist blows up my subway station suddenly I care. When they feel exempt from law, when they see others as less worthy, when they start to think the rules of human nature and decency don't apply, I care.

[Dirk Smacker]

I'm an IRL believer who also happens to really enjoy science and technology (nuclear reactor operator, bitches!).  I've read two books by Dawkins (and spent time with a few more while at the bookstore); one I loved (Ancestor's Tale), another I found a tad offensive (God Delusion). 

Anyway, there's plenty of simple rebuttals to the basic "faith is a virus" or "believing in God is like believing in Santa Claus" arguments.  Go read up on the serious ones (i.e. not "The Dawkins Delusion"), throw it back in their faces if it bothers you so much, and move on.  Just know that if they are serious enough from a real life perspective to bring up a Dawkins argument, there is nothing you can do over the internets to convince them otherwise.          

But the point of this thread is "Why Amarr?".  The answer should be obvious:  CCP made religious motive their "thing".  And a nasty thing at that.  Yes, there is plenty of spiritualism to go around in New Eden.  A lot of it was tacked on when they came out with the Asian-inspired bloodlines.  It's much more subtle and you often need to do the work and dig to find out about it.  That's something a "religgin iz st00pid" type isn't likely to do.   

To give a real world example I don't care if my neighbour is a Wiccan or Catholic or what they do in their own home or church. I certainly don't feel the need to argue with them over it. It doesn't affect me. However when the Jehovas Witnesses call, a Protestant sees fit to shout at me town, or a Muslim extremist blows up my subway station suddenly I care. When they feel exempt from law, when they see others as less worthy, when they start to think the laws of human nature and decency don't apply, I care.

Then you must understand when someone uses rp as an avenue to ridicule real world religion how insulting it is to some people and spoils all the fun.

[Desiderya]

The reason why the Amarr religion gets the most fallout could be because it is more popular in a sense that people know most about it. I for myself didn't really know anything about other more or less dominant religions, which is surely about to change now that you have piqued my interest.
I would call that behaviour you mentioned inconsistent, too. But what about reacting IC to it? The worst that could happen would be that a character looses his weight in such a debate, similiar to someone simply stating "My religion is better than yours. Because.".

Oh, and Kaito Hakkainen seems to be on to something, too.

[Gottii]

Rebirth and the Voluval can be seen, if not understood, rather than blindly believed in.
They may be "mystical" but they do not require faith, nor does belief in them entail taking on an entire religious, moral, and legal system.

Certainly neither involves belief or denial in the existence of God or Gods.

I disagree with this.  The Voluval, as written in PF, requires belief in the soul and karma.  While these dont necessarily mean belief in deities exactly, it certainly requires belief in the supernatural.  Moreover, its set with ritual and there is an organized way of passing on that belief in the supernatural.  That is a religion.