Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 04 Feb 2011, 11:09
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people's selective atheism gets really old really fast.
the Caldari Starsmith, the Tea Maker, Intaki Reborn and the Ida, the entire Minmatar Voluval thing, the Sisters of EVE.
People rarely, if ever, have much to say against these things.
Yet they go all Dawkins against Amarr and amarr-derived religions, e.g. the Blood Raiders.
This gets very dull.
Particularly when it is a Minmatar or Intaki character expressing these Dawkins style arguments for the nonexistence of such things.
I do not see how you can argue against the existence of gods and/or supernatural things, whilst having a Voluval mark, or being an Intaki. Unless you are also calling the majority proportion of the Minmatar, and Intaki, also deluded irrational uneducated fools.
And that's before they start on the whole priests=paedophiles arguments. Which are similarly old, lame and tiresome.
If they continue with the whole priests=pedos, then in that case could argue that the entire Minmatar voluval-marked population were abused, given the nature of the ceremony, with shamans/mystics involved in "initiating a teenager into adulthood". Yes. Quite. Want to go down that road? I don't.
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Whats your point?
Particularly when it is a Minmatar or Intaki character expressing these Dawkins style arguments for the nonexistence of such things.
I do not see how you can argue against the existence of gods and/or supernatural things, whilst having a Voluval mark, or being an Intaki. Unless you are also calling the majority proportion of the Minmatar, and Intaki, also deluded irrational uneducated fools.
I do, theres no rule that says all 200 trillion Intaki in this universe have to believe the same thing and technically the only thing wrong with calling people irrational uneducated fools for having certain opinions is thats its somewhat rude.
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I have to doubt that is the Amarrian religion alone that causes the angst. Amarrians will always be tied with slavery, which will be tied with their theology, which will be tied with moralist crimes, and the whole trainwreck will call from the depths of the IGS every whining bleeding heart that wants to prove their progressivism.
Me, I avoid religion talk ICly as much as I avoid political talk ICly. Part one of that is the wisdom to not stick my hand in a bear trap. The other part of it is a lack of knowledge of any Caldari religion PF I can reference.
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While I agree that I am quite tired of the atheist anti-God discussions in EVE too and have a slightly different approach myself, I also have to point out that you are not the guy, Lou, who people come to bash the Minmatar spiritual beliefs and other savagery etc to. ;) I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.
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Having a religion that encourages racial supremacy mandated by Heaven coupled with centuries of enslaving anyone they come across causes Amarr to be the target for anti-theist attacks that require the least effort to make. It's an expansionist, monotheistic religion, which many people will comfortable shooting at as they're conditioned for it already in contemporary society.
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Yeah, New Eden's other religions (Sani Sabik/EoM aside) are generally pretty quiet by comparison.
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Whats your point?
the point being that people don't seem to have an issue with playing characters who have to believe in some kind of supernatural thing, yet use arguments that deny the existence of any supernatural things.
from Vherokior descriptions "The ancient Voluval ritual, where the soul and karma of the person is revealed through the unexplained emergence of a body tattoo on the recipient, was created by Vherokior mystics."
so if a Minmatar character with a Voluval mark argues that there is no soul and such things, therefore the Amarr religion is wrong and is all just a fantasy, that there is no supernatural dimension, then what am I to make of that?
I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.
It's a lot less public then. Does not seem to happen on "The Summit", or on IGS.
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from Vherokior descriptions "The ancient Voluval ritual, where the soul and karma of the person is revealed through the unexplained emergence of a body tattoo on the recipient, was created by Vherokior mystics."
so if a Minmatar character with a Voluval mark argues that there is no soul and such things, therefore the Amarr religion is wrong and is all just a fantasy, that there is no supernatural dimension, then what am I to make of that?
Start by recognising that there are multiple definitions of 'soul'. The person could disregard and attack the Amarrian concept of a separate entity called such that dwells within the body and receives judgement after the body dies, while simultaneously believing in an incorporeal defining essence of a person without it existing as separate or detached from the body.
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I assure you it is not so non-existent as it seems to seem to you.
It's a lot less public then. Does not seem to happen on "The Summit", or on IGS.
The Summit has very few people who are willing to play hardcore Amarr or or other anti-Minmatar extremists and do that kind of stuff; even the few Amarrians there are the fluffy "ok so I might have a couple of slaves but they are more like volunteers really" kind, not the "your heathen ways blahblah" kind. We get the occasional patronizing Fed, at best.
IGS has some of that stuff, or has had over the years. I don't really read all that much of it so hard to say about the prevalence.
I guess part of why people do not do it in public is that OOC it is sort of PC for Westerners to be anti-monotheistic, but it is not so PC to bash quaint tribal ways, cos you have to be accepting to other cultures and stuff.
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people's selective atheism gets really old really fast.
the Caldari Starsmith, the Tea Maker, Intaki Reborn and the Ida, the entire Minmatar Voluval thing, the Sisters of EVE.
People rarely, if ever, have much to say against these things.
I've always imagined that calling the Intaki baby murdering savages in a public forum would be political suicide, at least in the Federation. This is why Celeste doesn't do it in public.
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I have to doubt that is the Amarrian religion alone that causes the angst. Amarrians will always be tied with slavery, which will be tied with their theology, which will be tied with moralist crimes, and the whole trainwreck will call from the depths of the IGS every whining bleeding heart that wants to prove their progressivism.
Me, I avoid religion talk ICly as much as I avoid political talk ICly. Part one of that is the wisdom to not stick my hand in a bear trap. The other part of it is a lack of knowledge of any Caldari religion PF I can reference.
Your mostly right here. The problem is not really the 'religion' per see, it's our western ideals and how they don't mesh well with 'slavery'. Beyond that the Amarrian faith is almost irrelevant to the issue; it's only somewhat relevant in the way it's the 'excuse' for slavery to exist in the Empire. The 'forgetful' atheists that Louella is annoyed with annoy me too at times as it's mostly “your religion is a lie to empower the slavers”, denying it's validity as a faith altogether and claiming that religion itself, is a lie, forgetting that this argument basically burn every other nation as well. Everyone has their faithful, but no faithful Jin-Mei seem to take offense to “religion is a lie” when told to an Amarrian's face by a Minmatar. Why? Because in that context people don't seem to realize he's claiming that all religion is false because one religion excuse slavery, it seems like he claims ONLY the Amarr religion is fake because it excuses slavery.
Having said that, I'd be more happy if you did not insult half the Amarrian RP player-base in your post. “Pro-slavery fanatics” and your “whining bleeding heart progressives” are basically on opposite sides of a spectrum with 'neutral on the slavery subject' smack in the middle. You just insulted everyone from the the middle, to the progressive end.
Way I see it, (Imperial) Amarr RP is broadly divided into these two groups, politically speaking. You got all the 'our country our ways, good or bad' crowd who can't be bothered with HOW the slaves are treated or even IF there are slaves at all so long as laws and traditions, etc. are followed. Ergo, the 'hardliners' who think things are fine as they are.
On the other side you have the 'progressives' who, while they may all be 100% loyal Imperials etc, believe that the system should be modified, abolished, improved or what have you. There is nothing wrong with this idea, though it might not mesh to well with the ideas many Minmatar and other characters have or like to have about the Empire. Nevertheless, in a constantly changing universe there is no reason why there would not be an increasing number of citizens who thing changing for the empire's better (as they see it) is a good idea and should be worked towards.
In the middle of these two politically opposite poles are all the Amarrian RP'ers who vote pro-Empire, and many others, nicely scattered around the spectrum. Where they all fall in regards to theology, faith and all other relevant things varies greatly. Nonetheless, the problem is slavery itself, both IC and OOC. So long as western society and the majority of Humanity itself thinks slavery is a bad thing, this will keep coloring Amarrian RP and all the things they touch up on. This keeps making 'progressive' Amarr RP something people want to try as they might feel bad IRL about RP'ing a more proactive slave-owner. Kuddos to those who do, I say. But even how much 'diet-coke' slavery progressives may or may not be in your eyes, or all our eyes, it's still a 'legit' way to RP, as is everything else.
Also, what Else said.
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Rebirth and the Voluval can be seen, if not understood, rather than blindly believed in.
They may be "mystical" but they do not require faith, nor does belief in them entail taking on an entire religious, moral, and legal system.
Certainly neither involves belief or denial in the existence of God or Gods.
The Amarr and Sani Sabik see the lions share of atheist resistance because of beliefs like the Reclaiming and the Harvest.
Few people really argue against religion unless it's out there trying to get them. The exception are "evangelical atheists" who seem to be just as hindered by faith in their reasoning as your average zealot.
To give a real world example I don't care if my neighbour is a Wiccan or Catholic or what they do in their own home or church. I certainly don't feel the need to argue with them over it. It doesn't affect me. However when the Jehovas Witnesses call, a Protestant sees fit to shout at me in town, or a Muslim extremist blows up my subway station suddenly I care. When they feel exempt from law, when they see others as less worthy, when they start to think the rules of human nature and decency don't apply, I care.
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I'm an IRL believer who also happens to really enjoy science and technology (nuclear reactor operator, bitches!). I've read two books by Dawkins (and spent time with a few more while at the bookstore); one I loved (Ancestor's Tale), another I found a tad offensive (God Delusion).
Anyway, there's plenty of simple rebuttals to the basic "faith is a virus" or "believing in God is like believing in Santa Claus" arguments. Go read up on the serious ones (i.e. not "The Dawkins Delusion"), throw it back in their faces if it bothers you so much, and move on. Just know that if they are serious enough from a real life perspective to bring up a Dawkins argument, there is nothing you can do over the internets to convince them otherwise. :)
But the point of this thread is "Why Amarr?". The answer should be obvious: CCP made religious motive their "thing". And a nasty thing at that. Yes, there is plenty of spiritualism to go around in New Eden. A lot of it was tacked on when they came out with the Asian-inspired bloodlines. It's much more subtle and you often need to do the work and dig to find out about it. That's something a "religgin iz st00pid" type isn't likely to do.
To give a real world example I don't care if my neighbour is a Wiccan or Catholic or what they do in their own home or church. I certainly don't feel the need to argue with them over it. It doesn't affect me. However when the Jehovas Witnesses call, a Protestant sees fit to shout at me town, or a Muslim extremist blows up my subway station suddenly I care. When they feel exempt from law, when they see others as less worthy, when they start to think the laws of human nature and decency don't apply, I care.
Then you must understand when someone uses rp as an avenue to ridicule real world religion how insulting it is to some people and spoils all the fun.
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The reason why the Amarr religion gets the most fallout could be because it is more popular in a sense that people know most about it. I for myself didn't really know anything about other more or less dominant religions, which is surely about to change now that you have piqued my interest.
I would call that behaviour you mentioned inconsistent, too. But what about reacting IC to it? The worst that could happen would be that a character looses his weight in such a debate, similiar to someone simply stating "My religion is better than yours. Because.".
Oh, and Kaito Hakkainen seems to be on to something, too.
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Rebirth and the Voluval can be seen, if not understood, rather than blindly believed in.
They may be "mystical" but they do not require faith, nor does belief in them entail taking on an entire religious, moral, and legal system.
Certainly neither involves belief or denial in the existence of God or Gods.
I disagree with this. The Voluval, as written in PF, requires belief in the soul and karma. While these dont necessarily mean belief in deities exactly, it certainly requires belief in the supernatural. Moreover, its set with ritual and there is an organized way of passing on that belief in the supernatural. That is a religion.
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It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.
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It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.
I don't think there's anything subconscious about it at all. On the internet, communists have a better rep than the monotheistic religions.
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People being hypocritical is perfectly normal. Besides being that active in "promoting" your religion is like asking people to try and prove you wrong if for no other reason then they hate you.
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It may be a subconscious OOC projection of the "leading" Internet morality (religion bad, atheism good). As such, Amarr is associated with Christianity by virtue of being the most visible, and receives derision, whereas the Intaki and Minmatar thing is identified as "alternative", and thus receives lighter treatment, as RL alternative religions receive by the "leading" Internet morality.
I don't think there's anything subconscious about it at all. On the internet, communists have a better rep than the monotheistic religions.
You say that like there's something bad about Communism.
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You say that like there's something bad about Communism.
This. However, it's an argument for another time and place.
Basically as far as I'm concerned the combination of 'fairy man in sky offering excuse' and the things said fairy man excuses leads people to bash Amarr in particular.
I find it amazing that so many seemingly anti-slavery like players end up joining factions like the Angels and Nation. I know there are several players who were in many ways anti-slavery and later ended up joining factions that pretty much do the slavery thing too.
This I suspect is based on a combination of the above factors of 'your religion is evil' and 'slavery is bad, and you promote it' combined with the ever present 'pirates are cool'.
Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.
Also, most of the reason for the hype against the Sansha recently is due – you guessed it; incursions. When the truth is slapped in your face on a daily basis suddenly everyone care, suddenly everyone ALLWAYS cared. Where is the lynching-mob to torch every Angel stronghold? No-where to be found, because Amarrians are slavers, Sansha are evil cyborg kidnappers, and the angels?
They are cool Jack Sparrow-like pirates – why give them a hard time, even when one can argue that the slaves worst off anywhere is the Angel ones and those of the Serpentis. (They have plenty too; free labor after all) Sansha slaves have no idea they are slaves, and what can't feel can't suffer, while in theory it's only the 'bad' Holders who miss-treat their slaves in the empire. All besides the point though.
I'd blame our modern 'pirates are cool' thing for shielding other slavers leading to help funnel all the anti-religion, anti-slavery rage onto the Amarr.
/end rant
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Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.
This is not only due to other players specifically targeting Amarr, though I am not denying that the monotheistic expansionist religion is an easy target.
There's other factors too, such as...
I have yet to see one Angel supporter who goes around telling others about how slave-trading is a pretty ok business if you do it right. This is partly, I suspect, because the vocal players you see on public RP channels (where this sort of stuff mostly goes on) don't want to play those aspects of organized crime, but rather play the cool smuggler pirate type who is really actually a good guy at heart and wouldn't harm a fly, except when he shoots first. In another part it is that for an Angel who actually does play those parts, going around advertising it does not make sense (while an Amarrian religious type would preach). Hence, it is brought up less, and so meets less opposition.
Regarding the Sansha supporters, I need to go a bit towards "you are doing it wrong" here and I apologize beforehand, but personally I find it hard to have any sort of IC dialogue with them, because the OOC expectations vary too much. With Sansha supporters, many of the vocal ones tend to go for "but we are all benevolent and the people were sort of taken voluntarily!", claiming even OOC that actually the raiding of a couple of million of your people were not all that bad. It is difficult to engage in any sort of RP from there beyond rolling eyes and setting them red. With Amarr religious types, we can start from a sort of common understanding what the actual mainstream Amarr religion is about, even where the view of the particular Amarrian is different, and then have an actual argument about the practical consequences of that, or the philosophical grounds for it, even about whether belief in the supernatural makes sense and why Voluval is Completely Different. ;)
Etc.
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Regarding pirates and slavery, I'll just leave this here (http://moiracorp.wordpress.com/2011/02/06/contract-report-sanshaserpentis-collusion/).
People want to play what they want to play. And they ignore things about their factions to achieve that. Seeing what we want to see isn't anything new. And because we're capsuleers, we do have a degree of plausible deniability regarding what happens 'inside' a certain faction.
The key is, I think, removing the OOC stigmas/biases that have soaked into the roleplaying community on all sides about those various factions, and judge the state or roleplay objectively from there.
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A good start would be refraining from assumptions about the motivations of other players and why/how they make their arguments in-character. It's a slippery slope that leads nowhere good.
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Because of this religious slaver Amarrians get a lot of flak, all the time, while piratical, slave-holding Angels and mind-raping Sansha slavers who represent the 'perceived utopia' (a 'good' goal) don't get quite as much.
This is not only due to other players specifically targeting Amarr, though I am not denying that the monotheistic expansionist religion is an easy target.
There's other factors too, such as...
I have yet to see one Angel supporter who goes around telling others about how slave-trading is a pretty ok business if you do it right. This is partly, I suspect, because the vocal players you see on public RP channels (where this sort of stuff mostly goes on) don't want to play those aspects of organized crime, but rather play the cool smuggler pirate type who is really actually a good guy at heart and wouldn't harm a fly, except when he shoots first. In another part it is that for an Angel who actually does play those parts, going around advertising it does not make sense (while an Amarrian religious type would preach). Hence, it is brought up less, and so meets less opposition.
Regarding the Sansha supporters, I need to go a bit towards "you are doing it wrong" here and I apologize beforehand, but personally I find it hard to have any sort of IC dialogue with them, because the OOC expectations vary too much. With Sansha supporters, many of the vocal ones tend to go for "but we are all benevolent and the people were sort of taken voluntarily!", claiming even OOC that actually the raiding of a couple of million of your people were not all that bad. It is difficult to engage in any sort of RP from there beyond rolling eyes and setting them red. With Amarr religious types, we can start from a sort of common understanding what the actual mainstream Amarr religion is about, even where the view of the particular Amarrian is different, and then have an actual argument about the practical consequences of that, or the philosophical grounds for it, even about whether belief in the supernatural makes sense and why Voluval is Completely Different. ;)
Etc.
I'm continually confused by your stance on this subject (which I believe I have seen reiterated else where).
I cannot ask you to name names for others, but would this perhaps involve me and my drive to making the Sansha more than baby eating evil doers?
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I'm not a spiritual person but i have how everyone criticize religion that it is bad.
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When you think about it, capsuleers are closely connected (literally) to the latest and best technology. I can kind of see how religion, at least the less practical types, suffers from this. From my personal experiences at least I can say that the more I learned in the fields of science, the less religion was "needed" to provide an answer and the answers became harder to believe (evolution theory versus the biblical genesis).
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Louella, perhaps you should see this disadvantage as an advantage too.
Many people are affected in an OOC sense when they are confronted with Amarr religious slavery. This causes them to respond with OOC-inspired arguments.
Its not easy for people to loathe piracy in the game, because our 'pirates are cool' from our own cultural reference frame, it is however easy for people to loathe religious slavers, the cultural reference frame is heavily biased against them.
RP-ing a faction/role that tends to evoke strong emotions can help one's roleplay too.
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Pirates are most definitely, cool, yeah...
(http://www.offshoreinjuries.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/somali-pirates.jpg)
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On the rare occasions when I still find the time and motivation to log on (with Katla), I do play an utter atheist. If anything, she has more loathing for Intaki spiritualism than she does for the rest of the superstitious mumbo that's tossed around by people who ought to know better.
Incidentally, it's where her personality overlaps most closely with my own.
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Pirates are most definitely, cool, yeah...
We know Seri, we know. But to many 'pirate' = Coolness.
The Charming vagabond out for his own good. The good-old-anti-hero there to help protect his 'mates'. The nice guy who would never let his homies down, though all else van be damned. The gentleman that steals out of need. The poor man who robs the fat, rich industrialists, And so on.
And as long as that image prevails there is hardly going to be many IC out-bursts yelling at Angel operatives for their support of an entity that mugs, kidnaps, murders, defiles and enslaves for their own profit, not when a not-so-cool theological Empire do the same for 'your own good'.
@ Natalcya
Nice to see your keeping an open mind here...
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It is quite understandable that a player wants to romanticize his/her character so that they can pretend that the character is a hero instead of a monster.
Things are quite simple in New Eden.
There are no heroes. Nor villains.
Anyone who deludes themselves to thinking that they are a heroes are just that, deluded. Just like with your moustache twirling villains, both ends of the spectrum are insane.
EVE is about the shades of grey, it is about taking a character from an alien culture, finding out what makes it tick and making best choices from that characters perspective to create a narrative that is interesting to the player and those that the character interacts with.
Then there are the others... but that would go to the urdoinitrong so not on these forums.
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My stance for Wanoah was approximately that he was an intelligent (esp. with those nice implants plugged in!) and thoughtful rabble-rouser. He had (has) nothing but contempt for all things Amarrian, not least the religious underpinnings for the entire Amarrian society. He wanted nothing more than to see all of it burn. So yes, he would be fervently atheist and the primary tool of atheism is rational thought. It's a pretty good rationale for a Minmatar character opposed to the Empire. Not original, and not unique, but I never bought into the RP-as-special-snowflake stuff that a lot of people aspire to. I was more than happy to be a grunt in one established bit of the provided lore or other.
Now, it's right to point out the spiritual angles outside of the Amarrian hegemony. Wanoah's stance on the Minmatar mumbo jumbo was just that: it's mumbo jumbo. Mumbo jumbo designed to bind the people together. As such, he'd view it as a quaint tradition that is useful. A bunch of "ancient" traditions designed to create some kind of mystique are not the same things as millennia of ancient religion providing a driving purpose behind a whole empire, however. I never really got any particular sense of the Minmatar traditions ever amounting to anything as solid as a religion. If anything, the idea of a deity would be anathema to a people struggling to shrug off the oppression of a fanatical monotheistic society. Besides, it's more than possible to be an atheist, but still have some sense of the spiritual. I see no contradictions here.
OOC, I am far more militant than Wanoah. I would like to see the world's monotheistic religions utterly destroyed, their accumulated wealth distributed to the poor, and those evil institutions consigned to the history books forever. One can dream. Perversely, then, I would probably have had way more fun playing an Amarrian religious-type. :)
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Ghost, I would altogether rather not progress further into the direction of "YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG", so I am probably not going to answer anything further than this, but to be fair to you:
1) I don't remember having a discussion specifically with you about the Sansha stuff OOC, so I cannot really comment whether you fit into what I have a problem with.
2) I do absolutely not have a problem with Sansha supporters who actually have more complex motives for it than "my implants made me do it" and/or "rawr I am an evil baby-eating monster".
3) What I do have an issue with is people who argue not only that their characters can and do have more complex and even benevolent motives for supporting Kuvakei, and push propaganda IC, but also OOCly push the view that actually most of the people abducted are going voluntarily, Sansha is creating a paradise for them instead of using most of them to his borg-like purposes, and even if he does do that, being converted to part of his hive-mind is actually a pretty ok thing to do to a person.
I should probably add that what I have an issue with is not limited to Sansha. There's also a bunch of Minmatar players who attack civilian installations to blow them up and get upset if you OOCly call it "terrorism", a couple of Amarr players who ICly hold slaves but OOCly claim it's just fine to do that because they provide for them nicely, etc. It has lately come up most strongly with the Sansha but that's probably more due to the storyline in general being on the top than the faction itself.
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Ah, ok. It's not so much I'm concerned about "ur doing it wrong", it's just I can't think of any Sansha people who have been doing that OOC.
I'll bugger off now so the thread gets back on topic.
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Ah, ok. It's not so much I'm concerned about "ur doing it wrong", it's just I can't think of any Sansha people who have been doing that OOC.
Yea well. I could show logs and name names but I am too concerned of "ur doing it wrong" there to do it (even in private). In any case I think it's a problem for me that'll fix itself as soon as the Sansha craze blows over and people who want to be omgrawrsansha because it is the current in thing go do something else. At which point the Sansha loyalists should be no more and no less annoying with it than any other faction. ;) (And the current FOTM omgrawr become the pet peeve, I suppose.)
I'll bugger off now so the thread gets back on topic.
Likewise.
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Difficult issue.
Seems a common thing with Rpers to bring their own morality and upbringing into their characters, which can cause some weirdness when mashed against established PF, etc.
While there is always room for a variety of viewpoints and different spectrums within each and every faction, there does seem to be quite a lot of the examples posted previously, such as the anti-slaver Amarrians or athiest/non spiritual Matari, or the Sansha followers acting as previously mentioned.
Granted capsuleers would be more free to think independently and speak independently than most rank-and-file civilians, but it just seems odd to me the extensive number of non-spiritual Matari players and anti-slavery, or "I have some slaves but it's not that bad and I treat them really well" sorts of Amarrians. *shrug*
It's to the point where I find it very refreshing to see Matari players embracing their more spiritual sides IC and posting accordingly, etc.
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We work with what other players can understand OOCly.
Merdaneth uses the term 'terrorist' for Matari freedom fighters precisely because of the impact I perceive it to have on an OOC level. We can't turn off our emotions instantly when we play characters. Words carry a lot of emotional content. The same thing with slavery. From my point of view many people equate slavery in the way it tends to be framed in our populair culture: 'cruel and immoral power-hungry whip wielding sadists' mostly.
The Atheist argument against religious fanatics is simply better understood and expressed by most players.
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Granted capsuleers would be more free to think independently and speak independently than most rank-and-file civilians, but it just seems odd to me the extensive number of non-spiritual Matari players and anti-slavery, or "I have some slaves but it's not that bad and I treat them really well" sorts of Amarrians. *shrug*
Most abusers don't see themselves as abusers, so it's not at all unlikely that many slavers would see themselves as doing their slaves a favour.
Indeed, back in the days when the British Empire was involved in slavery that was precisely the attitude of many people, and even after slavery was abolished the idea of the "White Man's Burden" was prevalent.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/1890sc_Pears_Soap_Ad.jpg)
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Granted capsuleers would be more free to think independently and speak independently than most rank-and-file civilians, but it just seems odd to me the extensive number of non-spiritual Matari players and anti-slavery, or "I have some slaves but it's not that bad and I treat them really well" sorts of Amarrians. *shrug*
Most abusers don't see themselves as abusers, so it's not at all unlikely that many slavers would see themselves as doing their slaves a favour.
This holds IC, definitely.
The problematic cases (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that we should not think them as bad guys (IC or OOC), because really they are quite fluffy and don't mean harm and have good justifications for what they are doing.
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Seems a common thing with Rpers to bring their own morality and upbringing into their characters, which can cause some weirdness when mashed against established PF, etc.
Seriphyn got lots of moral flack for being a womanizer, from other capsuleers, particularly pirates.
Sex is worse than violence, kids :P
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It would make sense that pirates would not consider violence such a big crime, no?
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It would make sense that pirates would not consider violence such a big crime, no?
I think that was more about the absurdity of pirates claiming the right to moralizing towards nationalist pilots. It's hilarious.
Still, while I feel that would drop more off-topic I don't think there is more to be said about this issue. RL-morality will be dragged into EVE-RP and there is nothing we can do about it. Players will apologize for their character's actions if it suits their IC-morals to do so. Everyone wants their characters to be cool or bad-ass but no-one wants to be 'evil' unless they consider that to be cool. And in most minds 'religious slavers' are un-cool, while for instance, pirates... well, we have covered this before.
My only advice to myself is, if I feel someone is being a bit of a two-faced ass about the whole moral-Ic/moral-OOC thing, to grill them about it OOC. Or even better - offer them a flaming and perfectly valid and legit IC response. Some pirate is telling you your morals are weak? Well, spit in their faces IC and let them know how absurd that kind of thing is, coming from them. This can be applied to nearly every situation.
Minmatar tribals telling you Imperial religion is fake and that your god don't exist? Respond in kind by insulting their spiritual heritage and point out how one can't deny the possible existence of one spiritual being/god and enforcing belief in another at the same time. Let's see how many Minmatar we have left in the end who are not self-proclaimed atheists.
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It would make sense that pirates would not consider violence such a big crime, no?
I think that was more about the absurdity of pirates claiming the right to moralizing towards nationalist pilots. It's hilarious.
I don't think it is, actually. Thinking that nationalism is immoral in itself is not very bizarre to me, and I do not think that it follows from considering violent piracy a valid action that you have no morals whatsoever.
My only advice to myself is, if I feel someone is being a bit of a two-faced ass about the whole moral-Ic/moral-OOC thing, to grill them about it OOC.
My advice to myself is to just ignore the OOC parts. But I am bad at taking it...
Minmatar tribals telling you Imperial religion is fake and that your god don't exist? Respond in kind by insulting their spiritual heritage and point out how one can't deny the possible existence of one spiritual being/god and enforcing belief in another at the same time.
Yes, please.
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Seems a common thing with Rpers to bring their own morality and upbringing into their characters, which can cause some weirdness when mashed against established PF, etc.
Seriphyn got lots of moral flack for being a womanizer, from other capsuleers, particularly pirates.
Sex is worse than violence, kids :P
Is it really any better of a representation of character to say "I might do [x evil deed], but at least I don't [x evil deed]"?
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the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.
which would give people some things to think about.
Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?
Grim :o
also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.
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the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.
which would give people some things to think about.
Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?
Grim :o
also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.
The Gallente would LOVE that.
The players, perhaps not so much. Political suicide and all that. Your Minmatar allies may not mind you bashing Amarrian slavery much, but bashing the Minmatar for slapping their fellows out of society over a patch of ink? Auchie.
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Regarding the original topic, I think one reason why people may use more atheist arguments against the Amarr religion than, for example, Voluval is that Amarr religion is more visible.
When you start the game, I think the racial descriptions for Amarr explain about their religion, and Amarr characters tend to be very vocal about it, as is fitting. :) However, there is much less information and noise about other races' religious practices, and to find said information you often need to know where to look for it.
If the player does not happen to be a PF nerd, they may simply be unaware of the religious and spiritual practices of their own race/bloodline. Such a player wanting to express their character's dislike of Amarr race or Amarr religion might well pick pick a way to do it that the player is familiar with from RL, whether they OOC hold to that view or not. ;)
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The Matari discriminate on the basis of juju, the Caldari think they can speak with the dead, and I am convinced that the Federation allows people to make a living practicing homeopathy.
They're all as bad as each other, really. :P
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In order to get an argument going about someone else's religion or cultural matters, you generally need:
- to know about it
- to care about it
- to have contact with people who do it, and
- to feel that that raising the matter is less socially awkward/more profitable to you (in whatever way) than not raising it.
Amarrian religion scores higher on the first two points than any other set of beliefs and practices in EVE[1]. It scores well enough on the remaining points that you get your public challenges, debates, spats and shootings.
"Their beliefs are false and wrong; my religion is true and right." Whatever the particulars, this approach isn't news.
"The Amarrian god is no more than a social construct created to reinforce certain social behaviours; my people's spirituality binds us together and underpins our identity." Again, no real news there. (And yes, there's a lot you can unpack from those two phrases if you wish.)
It sounds like there's a particular combination of "you're bad; I'm good" that's irked Louella, but I'm having difficulty seeing that there's an inconsistency there, logical or psychological.
[1] Except, perhaps, blobbing.
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Actually, in some ways, Intaki Reborn stuff can be considerably seen in a similar light than the "bad stuff" of the Amarr. After all, it's stated it's "what many foreigners consider a dark art".
Seriphyn has been in a monogamous relationship with an Intaki for the past 2+ months, however, he has just found out they are a reborn. What does this make them? He's fallen in love with the dying carcass of someone else, no? Who is the woman he loves, herself, or the previous being?
With OOC morality and only OOC morality, that's pretty fucking twisted and far worse than Amarr slavery, IMO.
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he has just found out they are a reborn. What does this make them? He's fallen in love with the dying carcass of someone else, no? Who is the woman he loves, herself, or the previous being?
PF is very clear that good quality "clones" are made by making an existing cadaver look like the capsuleer-to-be-cloned by plastic surgery type stuff, and then putting a copy of the brain inside. So after their first clone jump or emergency cloning the capsuleer is essentially a prettified walking corpse. Perhaps being attracted to walking corpses might start to feel less creepy once you are one? ;)
The Intaki Reborn process (if I have understood it correctly - I am no expert on Intaki PF so might have gotten it wrong) mainly seems to differ from "normal" capsuleer cloning in that they copy the Reborn's brain into a living person's body, presumably killing the living person in the process.
I would say the morality angle depends very much on where on the good-bad scale each person puts different things. But I think it is quite clear that from purely OOC angle Eve universe is not a very nice place.
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the Caldari think they can speak with the dead
Speak at the dead? Speak to the dead? Speak well of the dead?
Denominations of Caldari faith!
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the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.
which would give people some things to think about.
Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?
Grim :o
also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.
I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
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I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it.
It's good. It'd be even better to have more on the public record for new players to pick up and run with. Because this is one of the few canonical sources of internal conflict for people to latch onto it turns up regularly enough in Matari RP that I confess to a certain amount of "Oh, this again".
(Yes, I used an aspect of it myself for my first EVE RP character, combined with Matari stereotrope #2 "So this is freedom, huh?". I made up some troubling cultural issues for my subsequent character, which was just what I needed, but doesn't really help someone new.)
I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
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And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
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the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.
which would give people some things to think about.
Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?
Grim :o
also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.
I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
Whats funny, is that a lot of what I pictured as the "weaknesses" or blackness in Matari culture are made a bit moot by the existence of the Amarrians. For one, I imagine a society made up of 7 tribes and innumerable clans would be fractious and contentious, with quite a few vicious squabbles. However, with the Amarrians and whatever else breathing down their neck, it would be suicide to be anything but accommodating.
For example, Gottii and CJ's Brutor clan is very much one that was based off of an amalgamation of many raider/warrior societies (Vikings and Sioux/Apache off the top of my head), and if there was no Amarrian/Sansha/whatever overriding threat, its quite possible they would be making a nuisance of themselves. But the existence of this massive Empire threatening them kinda keeps everyone on their best behavior, as well as an outlet for aggression and raids, etc.
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I actually wrote that chronicle.
:eek:
:)
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And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
:bear:
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That was the connection I had always made. Good to hear it more or less confirmed as such.
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And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
:bear:
:D I agree with Graelyn on it's nice to get "confirmation" (As much as :bear: can be :lol: ).
And since I missed the fact you wrote it earlier, nice job! It gave some more dimension to my two favorite factions. :)
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I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.
Dude. I now love you.
And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
:bear:
Yes, this is what I saw in it as well. :D
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And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
But what's the connection with bad marks? And how on the thousand worlds did people get bad marks and then gather there during the enslavement? Why would Amarr-owned Matari be allowed to have marks when they weren't allowed to have tattoos? ("The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice. (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10)") Why would badly-marked but free Matari -- often only tenuously free -- travel through Empire space to find refuge rather than finding it outside either the republic or the Empire? (Gallente space seems a good move, here.)
I assume the idea is "I killed my lover and her tribe when I bombarded her planet from orbit, and then did some small dramatic thing to help assuage/enshrine my guilt (which just happened to stick it to an aspect of her culture that I didn't find rich and intriguing)", but... is that it?
Idonis' lover was Starkmanir, pre-successful-rebellion, and presumably unfree. These factors mean I'd be surprised if she'd had a Voluval mark, or, actually, any exposure to the Voluval ceremony. I can't really see Amarrian Holders permitting a heathen rite like that, or allowing access to their livestock for some shaman to do the ceremony. (It's not "benign" and pacifying like the Lutinlir, which had strategic benefit to the slave traders and slave owners.) I also can't see slave owners permitting their livestock to shun and exile some other (expensive) livestock because of something that happened as a result of this mystic mumbo-jumbo.
So who was having a Voluval ceremony? When did Vo'Shun begin?
Those two chronicles -- Khumaak (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=10-mar-04) and The Outcast (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=11-03-05) -- suggest a view of a Matari enclave on an Amarrian world where Matari first preserved a "rich culture" and then somehow gathered despite it being a communications black hole: how did they even know to go there? Those are both quite at odds with my mental image of how things worked, so it's one of the perplexities of PF for me. Clearly I need to find a way to reconcile them, but it's ... deeply odd.
How complete was the Amarrian occupation? How much of pre-Day-of-Darkness Matari culture (if any) survived the 800-odd years of enslavement as a living tradition? "Still deeply rooted in tribal folklore and steeped in tradition, the Minmatar often attract scorn for the seemingly barbaric rituals they cling on to" and references to their "rich culture" 500 years after the Day of Darkness just don't ring true with most of the rest of what we hear of Amarrian slave-holding, including the much more likely-sounding description of Vo'shun as "Ruled entirely by tribal law adapted and modified from Minmatar folklore". That suggests to me what I think is the more realistic situation with free Matari now: we're making this up as we go along, in diverse ways, with a century of attempts behind us and more being spawned each week.
Slightly rambling here. This is some fairly fundamental stuff where it feels like we're trying to join the dots to connect what are really some quite different notions of how things were. It'd be nice to have some sort of guidance about norms and exceptions.
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Nefantar.
Treacherous Nefantar.
Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.
They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.
The Ammatar was born.
They bowed and scraped to the Amarrians while swinging the whip on their own kind. Looking away from some 'barbaric' customs that they felt were essential to the Minmatar people and explained it to the Amarrians as a way of keeping them pacified and more servile. Constantly feeding the independence of the Minmatar people while they were being 'imprisoned by their own kind'. There is no such thing as a noble savage, to be a noble savage, one must be taught to be one. Ammatars were the quiet godfathers and godmothers whom did not spare the rod when the parents were around but left candy under the pillow.
That is how the Minmatar culture survived.
That is how the rebellion succeeded, the Nefantar planned the whole event, spent centuries amassing resources for the fleets, building information and communication networks for the rebels so that they whole thing could be synchronized across the Largest Empire in the Universe.
When the edict to eradicate the Starkmanir came, they did what they did best, they took a whole bunch of them, changed their lineages in the Amarrian records and hid them for centuries upon centuries until the idiotic Sisters of EVE blew their cover.
Of course some of them drank the Kool-Aid and became true believers of the Amarrian Faith, but those who were in danger of doing so never knew anything.
Because Nefantar are best at what they do, even so good that they can deceive themselves.
Isty is a noob compared to them.
PS. Vo'shoun are a player generated concept later become part of Canon. I think Sarkos and co. created it.
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And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.
I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover. I myself assumed it was named after her. I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.
But what's the connection with bad marks? And how on the thousand worlds did people get bad marks and then gather there during the enslavement? Why would Amarr-owned Matari be allowed to have marks when they weren't allowed to have tattoos? ("The Minmatar tattoo artists of today are forever seeking to regain the knowledge and skill that was lost to them when the Amarr, during their occupation of the Minmatar, issued an edict banning the practice. (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-09-10)") Why would badly-marked but free Matari -- often only tenuously free -- travel through Empire space to find refuge rather than finding it outside either the republic or the Empire? (Gallente space seems a good move, here.)
I assume the idea is "I killed my lover and her tribe when I bombarded her planet from orbit, and then did some small dramatic thing to help assuage/enshrine my guilt (which just happened to stick it to an aspect of her culture that I didn't find rich and intriguing)", but... is that it?
Idonis' lover was Starkmanir, pre-successful-rebellion, and presumably unfree. These factors mean I'd be surprised if she'd had a Voluval mark, or, actually, any exposure to the Voluval ceremony. I can't really see Amarrian Holders permitting a heathen rite like that, or allowing access to their livestock for some shaman to do the ceremony. (It's not "benign" and pacifying like the Lutinlir, which had strategic benefit to the slave traders and slave owners.) I also can't see slave owners permitting their livestock to shun and exile some other (expensive) livestock because of something that happened as a result of this mystic mumbo-jumbo.
So who was having a Voluval ceremony? When did Vo'Shun begin?
Those two chronicles -- Khumaak (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=10-mar-04) and The Outcast (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=11-03-05) -- suggest a view of a Matari enclave on an Amarrian world where Matari first preserved a "rich culture" and then somehow gathered despite it being a communications black hole: how did they even know to go there? Those are both quite at odds with my mental image of how things worked, so it's one of the perplexities of PF for me. Clearly I need to find a way to reconcile them, but it's ... deeply odd.
How complete was the Amarrian occupation? How much of pre-Day-of-Darkness Matari culture (if any) survived the 800-odd years of enslavement as a living tradition? "Still deeply rooted in tribal folklore and steeped in tradition, the Minmatar often attract scorn for the seemingly barbaric rituals they cling on to" and references to their "rich culture" 500 years after the Day of Darkness just don't ring true with most of the rest of what we hear of Amarrian slave-holding, including the much more likely-sounding description of Vo'shun as "Ruled entirely by tribal law adapted and modified from Minmatar folklore". That suggests to me what I think is the more realistic situation with free Matari now: we're making this up as we go along, in diverse ways, with a century of attempts behind us and more being spawned each week.
Slightly rambling here. This is some fairly fundamental stuff where it feels like we're trying to join the dots to connect what are really some quite different notions of how things were. It'd be nice to have some sort of guidance about norms and exceptions.
There is no connection between Idonis' Starkmanir lover and the bad marks at all. His lover was merely a point of regret; perhaps humanity. When Arkon Ardishapur died, Idonis went from "son of a royal heir" to "royal heir" with all the responsibilities it entailed. The first of which was unfortunately annihilating his lover's race. Put yourself in his shoes, in orbit of Starkman Prime, as it burned. Continents re-arranging themselves... projected population dropping on your battleship's displays... the likelihood of your favourite slave being incinerated rising with each salvo... and here you are in command of it all. Almost makes you want to put a stop to it all with a binding Imperial edict, which you now have the authority to issue, doesn't it?
Also, the outcast colony is a fairly "new thing" speaking Eve-historically; it wasn't around during the rebellion yet - the subtle implication being that people with bad marks in Minmatar history weren't ALWAYS afforded the kindness of exile, but instead fell victim to a far quicker solution.
I actually don't understand voluval marks, or the 'lottery' inherent to them. I don't know why people get the mark that they get. I just tried to explore a "what would happen to them" scenario.
(btw, in all my writing for CCP there is a degree of intentional vagueness - you have to leave out a lot of details, because details can mean conflict with CCP's established fiction. Hence the "sneaking it in"... there are blanks meant for others to fill. Don't think of the chron as some cuttingly accurate demographic documentation; all it really is, is a story that says "there's a small colony of outcasts on a crappy planet somewhere. here's a bit of history behind it.")
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Isty is a noob compared to them.
PS. Vo'shoun are a player generated concept later become part of Canon. I think Sarkos and co. created it.
Hehehe... almost:
http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c4_reclamation.php (http://eve.klaki.net/ec/fiction/c4_reclamation.php)
This was written in 2002. Before the alpha test if I recall correctly. RP event of sorts between Endless Corporation (Caldari, evil businessmen) and Sabaoth Inc (Amarr, evil slavers) vs. Oracle (Minmatar freedom fighters, spiritual precursor to Ushra'Khan of sorts.)
There was a great Minmatar writer by the name of TheDeviant in EC, who quit Eve ages ago. Another fellow named Thundercloud, who IRL was with the 82nd Airborne, and if memory serves, did a great deal of writing from Iraq. I think at the time, Vo'shun was a sort of underground railroad; a series of hidden stations.
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Nefantar.
Treacherous Nefantar.
Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.
They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.
The Ammatar was born.
This makes sense to me. Although I suspect the conspiracy to undermine Amarrian rule was limited to a small part of the leaders of the tribe. How else could they maintain security for so long?
I like the idea because in one way it's quite heartening that a group of people could give up so much and endure becoming pariahs to protect their kin. And, at the same time, it's very sad that so few tribal Matari would accept the idea these days. Also it's sad because so many of the Nefantar would have lost touch with who they truly where, witness those that stayed loyal to the empire in the Mandate and those that worship the Amarrian god.
Not to mention the carnage wrought during the vindication border war between the Republic and the Mandate.
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Nefantar.
Treacherous Nefantar.
Basically when the Day of Darkness came they realized that the Amarrians would destroy their whole culture until something would be done.
They offered themselves to be the slavemasters of their own kin, liaisons between the Amarrians and Minmatar, so that the Amarrians would feel less tainted with their livestock while the Minmatar would have someone concrete to hate on day to day basis. Nefantar bit the bullet, they became the 'traitors' of the Minmatar race because they knew that it was the only way to preserve their culture, only way to some day find freedom from the Amarrians.
The Ammatar was born.
This makes sense to me. Although I suspect the conspiracy to undermine Amarrian rule was limited to a small part of the leaders of the tribe. How else could they maintain security for so long?
I like the idea because in one way it's quite heartening that a group of people could give up so much and endure becoming pariahs to protect their kin. And, at the same time, it's very sad that so few tribal Matari would accept the idea these days. Also it's sad because so many of the Nefantar would have lost touch with who they truly where, witness those that stayed loyal to the empire in the Mandate and those that worship the Amarrian god.
It doesn't make sense to me. I don't believe that "a tribe" can decide this stuff. Even if a council of chiefs decided in private that this would be the thing to do, I'd expect that for the vast majority of Nefantar, they really were the slave masters for the Amarr, because that's all they were told. Any claim that they did it for the good of the tribes, (honest, Guv) seems to me to be a rationalisation after the fact.
Perhaps I'm just cynical.
Oh, and on OOC the other night someone pointed out that the PF had been retconned in 2009, and that at the time of the rebellion there were still unconquered Matari fighting on against the Amarr. This rather confuses me now, as I didn't notice this at the time, and it rather changes a lot of assumptions that underpin ideas I had about how Matari culture works. I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet, but it does make me wonder whether maybe if the Nefantar had fought too, rather than collaborating, they'd have saved more culture?
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Granted capsuleers would be more free to think independently and speak independently than most rank-and-file civilians, but it just seems odd to me the extensive number of non-spiritual Matari players and anti-slavery, or "I have some slaves but it's not that bad and I treat them really well" sorts of Amarrians. *shrug*
Most abusers don't see themselves as abusers, so it's not at all unlikely that many slavers would see themselves as doing their slaves a favour.
This holds IC, definitely.
The problematic cases (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that we should not think them as bad guys (IC or OOC), because really they are quite fluffy and don't mean harm and have good justifications for what they are doing.
Another problematic case (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that certain factions are the bad guys (IC or OOC), while failing to recognise or acknoledge the fact that none of the factions are the good guys and their particular faction is guilty of similar atrocities.
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Well, in pre-retcon/TonyG times it would have been more logical worldwise for the Nefantar to actually have a conspiracy that spanned over a thousand years.
Than what probably is the reason behind the starkmanir surviving and the minnie culture being seemingly unscathed by thousand years of repression.
Which is... as you guessed, the Elders and the Enheduanni.
There is no space for cultural reconstruction of the Minmatar with the 'benign' help of the Federation within the current storyline paradigm.
Nor, for pretty much anything that players have pieced together from the PF or old player generated content.
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Well, in pre-retcon/TonyG times it would have been more logical worldwise for the Nefantar to actually have a conspiracy that spanned over a thousand years.
I have difficulty believing any sort of conspiracy can last a thousand years. I have difficulty believing it can last fifty.
Which is... as you guessed, the Elders and the Enheduanni.
I thought the Enheduanni were something that practically nobody knew about (so I've been mostly ignoring them as irrelevant IC) am I wrong? Are they actually common knowledge?
The Elders are now pretty well known about, well, that they exist. I'm not sure if details about them are at all public knowledge.
Another problematic case (for me) are those who go around claiming OOC that certain factions are the bad guys (IC or OOC), while failing to recognise or acknoledge the fact that none of the factions are the good guys and their particular faction is guilty of similar atrocities.
There are scales. I think OOC that slavery as practiced by the vikings was significantly better than slavery as practiced by the North American colonials. But they were both slavery.
In Eve, I think OOC that Sansha are significantly worse than Angels, as an example, though the Angels aren't particularly nice. Actually, I'd go so far as to say that slavery as practiced by the Sansha is worse than that (generally) practiced by the Amarrians (although some of the Vitoc stuff hits many of the same buttons). But those are probably due to my personal bugbears about altering personality; altering the self; via drugs, surgery or implants.
I think (OOC) that Tribalism is pretty fucked up, and a cause of much misery in the current world, and in the Matari society (but IC it's the best thing since sliced bread; this is one of my major cognitive dissonances with my character), Just because I think that doesn't mean that I think that it's anywhere near as bad as what Sansha offers.
So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys. Do you think that's unreasonable?
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So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys. Do you think that's unreasonable?
Personally, I don't think holding an OOC opinion is unreasonable. I do think it's unreasonable when, as I've seen pop up in OOC channels occasionally, people characterize those who disagree with their OOC opinions as unreasonable, rather than simply people who who hold differing opinions.
I've picked up the general impression that Amarr, Caldari and Sansha players are on the receiving end of a disproportional amount of pressure to 'admit' their characters are hypocrites or else really sekritly evil. I don't think it's unreasonable for an Amarr player to say 'My character justifies his slave-holding by X, and in his view he's actually virtuous.'
'Yeah but you have to admit he's really evil', without any intent to engage in a discussion of what is 'evil' and how motivations and perceptions interact with a (dubious) external reality, is a lot closer to harassment than debate in my opinion, and militates against nuanced and sophisticated character generation and role-play.
OOC I think the Angels are the real evil in Eve, but that's because they're people traffickers, and people traffickers press my buttons in a way that imaginary cyborgation doesn't. And I can imagine being seduced by the idea that at least some people would be better off with TCMCs, willing or not, although it's not a view Cia(c) holds - violent repeat offenders, people with disorders that make them incapable of consent who can't be treated by other means, my neighbor who thinks parking his SUV on the footpath blocking my gate is a perfectly reasonable thing to do ... I can see the slippery slope someone could go down, even if I believe that ethically even the first step on that slope is unacceptable.
I can't imagine thinking shipping people off for forced prostitution, i.e. rape for another's monetary gain, is anything other than evil.
However, I don't expect Angel RPers to burst into OOC mea culpas on behalf of their characters every time the subject comes up, any more than I expect Minmatar RPers to burst into OOC mea culpas every time the negative aspects of tribal government come up, or Gallente about burning people alive, or etc etc and etc.
Finally, the only instances I have ever seen of Sansha players claiming OOC that their characters were harmless, fluffly cuddly bunnies were complete with <shifty eyes> and <backing towards the door> emotes that made it clear the tone of the interaction was lighthearted OOC foolery.
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There are scales. I think OOC that slavery as practiced by the vikings was significantly better than slavery as practiced by the North American colonials. But they were both slavery.
Interesting statement considering the records regarding Viking slavery tend to be much rarer and written by Vikings or by non-slaves in cultures that had slaves. N. American slavery on the other hand has extensive records written in some cases by those who opposed the practice and later on by former slaves. The N. American memory is significantly closer with the descendants of slaves able to point at great-great-grandpa/ma and say he was born a slave.
All the above goes into the discussion of defining "evil." Perspective matters, absolutes are hard to come by.
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So yeah, OOC, I think the Sansha are the bad guys. Do you think that's unreasonable?
Yes. My reasoning is in my post you replied to.
Fake Edit:
Ill reply in more detail perhaps when not posting from my phone.
Real Edit:
I think Ciarente managed to capture a lot of my reasoning in her post, especially the following:
I've picked up the general impression that Amarr, Caldari and Sansha players are on the receiving end of a disproportional amount of pressure to 'admit' their characters are hypocrites or else really sekritly evil. I don't think it's unreasonable for an Amarr player to say 'My character justifies his slave-holding by X, and in his view he's actually virtuous.'
'Yeah but you have to admit he's really evil', without any intent to engage in a discussion of what is 'evil' ...
I find the slavery example interesting, in that some types of slavery are better than others, some types of torture are better than others, some types of abuse are better than others.
You view "your" evil as better than "my" evil, making you the good guys? Then, because I wont admit OOC (or IC) I am the bad guys, and you are the good guys, it means I am twisted OOC and/or just an idiot because I try to defend my evil on an OOC level, which leads to OOC comments from some such as "there is no way you can defend yourself on an OOC level and say your character is not evil".
I am not saying that my character is not evil, or twisted, or emotionally disturbed, I am just saying that you can't ignore aspects of your own faction and then paint one faction as the bad guys and one as the good guys. All the OOC defenses put forward by the "bad guys" I have seen focuses not on trying to say that their faction is not evil, but just pointing out that those who are throwing the stones are not innocent themselves.
Which, brings me back to the general point in the OP. Don't point fingers while forgetting what your own faction is all about.
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Thats the thing.
Lets take an example that is not from real life or from EVE.
Lets take the factions of one of my favourite sci-fi games of all time, Alpha Centauri.
Each and every faction has their own flavour, each faction gets their pros and cons from that flavour.
In the beginning of the game (or the history of the faction) only thing that the faction competes against is their natural surroundings.
Flourishing in a hostile environment is the first hurdle for all of them, each approach the dilemma in a different way and each and every one of them develops in a way that is suitable to their flavour, the pros and cons they have and according to the resources that they have at hand.
Next hurdle is encountering the first faction they encounter, how to keep them from attacking you, are you compatible, can you live in peace, do you need a large military to deter the possibility of attack, can you trade, can you become allies, can you just buy their friendship, will they betray you in the long run, will you pretend to be their friend and leech their resources and tech etc.
Then the whole thing goes global, you have to balance it all with all the factions and keep your back covered against the alliances of your peers and try to thrive in a hostile environment with potentially hostile other factions, which all have their flavours and ways of dealing with things.
In the world of Alpha Centauri you can get extra content with the Alien Crossfire, which adds two alien factions on the planet (also a lot of new player faction options arise) that are not interested in surviving on the planet, but taking control of it, by fulfilling their own goals (they have to gain access to some artifacts that enable them to control the whole planet and win the game.) They have higher tech level, they are hostile, and they would rather kill you than talk with you. Which adds a little bit of more flavour to the whole pot.
The point that I am making, in the beginning each and every faction is completely concentrated on survival, there is no moral issues involved in developing into a faction that survives/flourishes in a hostile environment, but it means that each faction creates their own morality while doing so (different choices in how you run your faction affect how other factions see you, friendly or an enemy.)
This is where it crosses over with EVE, each faction has flourished in a different kind of environment and has developed their own way of doing things, their own morality. None of them are good or bad, they have just made choices based on their 'flavour' during their path into an Empire, their morality is pretty much based on the conditions that the faction had to survive in after the collapse.
The problem is the factions that have risen _after_ the collapse.
Their development of morality consists of being in a universe where there is these big entities that you can feed upon, the option of being a parasite is part of the picture (you could argue that Amarrians are parasitic, but if you do, then you know nothing about the motivations of the Amarrians and their way of doing slavery.)
In these smaller factions their morality has developed on a completely different set of rules for survival than with their predecessors.
Which will naturally make them OOCly much more morally reprehensible towards a well socialized individual because they thrive on the suffering of their Fellow Man.
Only exception in the smaller factions are the Thukkers, they have developed in the Minmatar tribal structure and continued their own development when they gained the ability to travel in space, they are 'morally sound' in the way that the other smaller factions are not, because they lack the parasitic aspect of the other smaller factions. They may be a little dodgy, but that is only because their survival mechanisms are similar to the opportunistic Travellers/Gypsies of the real world (or Jawas of the Star Wars universe) where the law of possession is different for them.
But I am rambling, better go hunt for brekkies.
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Really, all this religion bashing gets tedious. How about we just say that my Winged Monkeys are the best and that you're all going to worship my holy stripy socks of win.
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R'amen brother.
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R'amen sister.
I fixeded it for you. =]
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R'amen sister.
I fixeded it for you. =]
GIRL ON THE INTERNET! ALERT! ALERT! TO YOUR STATIONS, MEN!
START ACTING SEXY AND MANLY!
*Istvaan begins repairing a motorcycle while shirtless*
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Don't fall for it, its obviously a dude in real life! D:
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R'amen sister.
I fixeded it for you. =]
GIRL ON THE INTERNET! ALERT! ALERT! TO YOUR STATIONS, MEN!
START ACTING SEXY AND MANLY!
*Istvaan begins repairing a motorcycle while shirtless*
*Borza smashes Istavaan's motorcycle with the T-Rex he's riding while playing a guitar solo with the wind blowing through his hair*
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Don't fall for it, its obviously a dude in real life! D:
* Dossie Kielle looks up her skirt.
Hmmm.
Sorry boys, I'm taken. =]
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Bit of a similar discussion going on in this IGS thread at the moment. Not directly related to the OP but as always religion came up. Silas pushed some points on Alicia Wildfire regarding Matari atheism, similar to many of the points in this thread.
Good time to jump in on either side IC if anyone here interested.
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Good time to jump in on either side IC if anyone here interested.
No, not really. I don't discuss religion.
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And what exactly was the point of that response, other than to sound completely snarky?
My link is directly related to the OP in this thread, people who have been participating in this thread have a good chance of wanting to participate IC. If you aren't, then just dont post... why the need for your comment?
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Silas, I may be going blind, but I'm not seeing a link in your post.
Which thread? With a brief glance at IGS I fail to find anything that looks likely.
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Epic link fail on my part. sorry,
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1468714&page=2#43
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Oh, and on OOC the other night someone pointed out that the PF had been retconned in 2009, and that at the time of the rebellion there were still unconquered Matari fighting on against the Amarr. This rather confuses me now, as I didn't notice this at the time, and it rather changes a lot of assumptions that underpin ideas I had about how Matari culture works. I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet, but it does make me wonder whether maybe if the Nefantar had fought too, rather than collaborating, they'd have saved more culture?
I haven't noticed a change like this either? Can somebody please provide references (so I can go read it!) and/or explain what was changed? It isn't obvious to me from the above. (There used to be free Matari but it got rewritten? The other way around?)
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Oh, and on OOC the other night someone pointed out that the PF had been retconned in 2009, and that at the time of the rebellion there were still unconquered Matari fighting on against the Amarr. This rather confuses me now, as I didn't notice this at the time, and it rather changes a lot of assumptions that underpin ideas I had about how Matari culture works. I haven't figured out how to deal with that yet, but it does make me wonder whether maybe if the Nefantar had fought too, rather than collaborating, they'd have saved more culture?
I haven't noticed a change like this either? Can somebody please provide references (so I can go read it!) and/or explain what was changed? It isn't obvious to me from the above. (There used to be free Matari but it got rewritten? The other way around?)
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1069891&page=1#2
Clarified the exact time scale of Minmatar subjugation at the hands of Amarr. Canon sources variously claimed the Minmatar were invaded and conquered wholesale in 22480 or that the Amarr were still invading and conquering their planets at the time of the Rebellion in 23216; canon has been modified to fit the latter scenario. This effectively puts current web site timelines out of date; the timelines will be given a full revamp soon.
with theodicy, the minmatar still had unconquered planets, a working Minmatar Fleet & command structure, and associated other things.
it's a Huge change. and it being buried away in a release note like that? :s
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edit: Louella beat me to it :)
I agree, this is a huge change, and quite significantly changes my internal picture of how the Matari culture might have survived/changed. Whether it's based on half-remembered ideas after x hundred years of slavery, or based on half-remembered ideas after x hundred years of guerilla war.... it definitely affects my personal back-story, but I haven't figured out exactly what will be the result.
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Louella, thank you! Lots! :)
it's a Huge change. and it being buried away in a release note like that? :s
Yes. I'll post this on EM forums, I can't be the only one who missed this change.
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Honestly, I think between Ciarente and Graanvlokkie, the issue was hit perfectly. Certain issues, especially relating towards matters of power and the abuse of such, can get to us (I refer all those here to the "Things in RP that OOC disturb me" thread from a while back). These feelings, at times, may effect how we react not just to characters who take those views, but the players behind them as well.
I'd also postulate that Amarr and Sansha at least may come under more fire for being "evil" because their evil is easier and frankly more believable to play. An Amarr can say he owns (or tortures/kills/captures) lots of slaves, and by and large the OOC community response is "Well, okay. You're Amarr." (Yes, it's a lot more nuanced than that, but I'm generalizing.)
When a Gallentean tries to play their brand of "evil" - i.e., freedom at any cost, unless done extremely carefully it can easily provoke responses ranging from "Godmodding!" to "Capsuleers don't have any roles in that!" to "Meh." etc etc. (For example, try claiming you've effected a massive effort to remove hundreds of thousands of dissenters from the State, some from Provist prisons. I suspect there will be just as much a response of "well, how did you pull that off, huh?!" as actually going along with the RP.)
Or I could be pulling at straws.
And yes, CCP needs to publish these sudden changes in PF, dammit. And rationalize them a bit more. :s
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I'm willing to defend my character Ruby as being morally good in an OOC sense, simply because she acts out of genuine compassion for others. Even when she turns innocent janitors into True Slaves to serve as parents for her orphans, she honestly believes she's elevating them to a higher level of existence.
Edit: I do consider her actions to be morally wrong OOC, and the logic her perception of reality and morality is based on is quite twisted. I'll not be called a complete moral relativist. Still, in terms of her motives alone, she is quite nice. :P
Katla, on the other hand, is a reptile. :D
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When a Gallentean tries to play their brand of "evil" - i.e., freedom at any cost, unless done extremely carefully it can easily provoke responses ranging from "Godmodding!" to "Capsuleers don't have any roles in that!" to "Meh." etc etc. (For example, try claiming you've effected a massive effort to remove hundreds of thousands of dissenters from the State, some from Provist prisons. I suspect there will be just as much a response of "well, how did you pull that off, huh?!" as actually going along with the RP.)
How would that be "evil", anyway? I could certainly see calls of "godmodding" if someone did that - the only provist prisons we know of according to PF are the POW camps on Caldari Prime. If you want an evil Gallentean, there's a lot more PF for race supremacist and ultranationalist terrorist organizations (look up some of the old news articles). The Caldari/Gallente war Chrons, combined with the statements from the Gallente FW ranks lead one pretty conclusively to believe that there is a large genocidal streak in the Gallente. There's certainly just as much arrogance as the Amarr have, combined with a feeling of being the "chosen people", albeit in this case it is because they were the first to "discover freedom".
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that Gallente democracy is like our modern democracy. It appears to not only be far more militant, but also far more intolerant of other cultural traditions and mores.
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[mod]I just want to comment here and make sure people keep within the guidelines. This has gone from a somewhat worrying start to be a very decent discussion, and I would like to see it stays that way.[/mod]
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How would that be "evil", anyway? I could certainly see calls of "godmodding" if someone did that - the only provist prisons we know of according to PF are the POW camps on Caldari Prime. If you want an evil Gallentean, there's a lot more PF for race supremacist and ultranationalist terrorist organizations (look up some of the old news articles). The Caldari/Gallente war Chrons, combined with the statements from the Gallente FW ranks lead one pretty conclusively to believe that there is a large genocidal streak in the Gallente. There's certainly just as much arrogance as the Amarr have, combined with a feeling of being the "chosen people", albeit in this case it is because they were the first to "discover freedom".
Let's not make the mistake of assuming that Gallente democracy is like our modern democracy. It appears to not only be far more militant, but also far more intolerant of other cultural traditions and mores.
True enough point - making a hostile character can result in much more potent RP than making hostile (written) RP actions. I was trying to compare two (more or less) equal events; i.e., Amarrians transit borders to capture slaves, Gallenteans to free dissenters. Both involve violation of the sovereign borders of another nation and quite possibly deaths among any form of defending forces, both are likely to cause powerful social upset both among those who are taken away and those who are left behind in the aftermath of the raids, and both are undertaken on the basis that the actors' philosiphy is the "only right way" and opposing views are clearly wrong. But, one action is (in my view) far more commonly viewed as a "good" action than another, due in part to the OOC sensibilities mentioned in earlier posts.
Should have made that more clear.
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"Religion is a terminal illness whose symptoms include the loss of common sense, humility, rational thinking, and in your case, moral decency."
- Gallente Ambassador Jacques Allirou, Caille Summit, 23220
This is in Theodicy.
Gallente ambassador insults the Intaki, who form the majority of the Federation civil service, hmm.
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"Religion is a terminal illness whose symptoms include the loss of common sense, humility, rational thinking, and in your case, moral decency."
- Gallente Ambassador Jacques Allirou, Caille Summit, 23220
This is in Theodicy.
Gallente ambassador insults the Intaki, who form the majority of the Federation civil service, hmm.
¡Viva la Revolución!
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TonyG is pretty obsessed with this "Amarr religion is evil" thing, if I remember from TEA, with Karsoth getting pleasured by drugged up slave children for LOL LOOK HOW BAD AMARR IS LOLOL PAEDOPHILIA.
So that Gallente comment is unsurprising, despite the Federation and all its differing religions, constitutional protection of free religion and so on
Etc.
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Tony G took a crap on EVE fiction and we all paid him for it. Worst bunch of nonsense ever.
TonyG is pretty obsessed with this "Amarr religion is evil" thing, if I remember from TEA, with Karsoth getting pleasured by drugged up slave children for LOL LOOK HOW BAD AMARR IS LOLOL PAEDOPHILIA.
So that Gallente comment is unsurprising, despite the Federation and all its differing religions, constitutional protection of free religion and so on
Etc.
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[mod]Much though I might agree with the sentiment, please keep criticism constructive.[/mod]
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Much though I might agree with the sentiment, please keep criticism constructive.
Yes, I am err, amazed at the patience and niceness of the eve RP community in accepting Tony G's wisdom and masterful fiction-altering abilities. ;)
* Point taken, no more comments here on this *
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TonyG is pretty obsessed with this "Amarr religion is evil" thing, if I remember from TEA, with Karsoth getting pleasured by drugged up slave children for LOL LOOK HOW BAD AMARR IS LOLOL PAEDOPHILIA.
So that Gallente comment is unsurprising, despite the Federation and all its differing religions, constitutional protection of free religion and so on
Etc.
And the Caldari Megacorps are Evil thing. And the Gallentean's are the extremly virile and studly saviors of humanity thing.
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Yes, from TEA, I got that TonyG is very biased towards Gallente/Minmatar. The whole portrayal of Gallente Federation was a Tom Clancy-esque US up against the evil invading Russians etc. Caldari led by a twitchy racist against the helpless democratic nation that fight gloriously (even if defeated) against ze invadors.
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Much though I might agree with the sentiment, please keep criticism constructive.
Silver's right, it's not right to bash for bashings sake. We should be constructive in our criticisms by explaining what could be done to correct what we perceive as mistakes on the part of CCP.
:twisted: I'll start.
It would be a wise executive decision on CCP's part if they retconed TEA, fired Tony, and made a public apology for what they've done.
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Tony G. may not have a degree in EVE LORE, but he could give the guy who wrote The Burning Life some tips. At least I was engaged throughout Empyrean Age, while I could neither like the characters (in TBL) or story they were immersed in, let alone the writing style of the author. "And then the guys did stuff and a couple weeks passed and then they went here...and then this happened." *falls asleep* I realize it might have been a wet dream for the EVE BIBLE folks for background info ("ur doing it wrong. it says they do this in TBL on page 56!"), but getting through it was a chore for me.
But that's my personal opinion, and most certainly a matter of taste.
What is this thread about anyway? :P
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As someone who's RL faith tradition has been denigrated in this thread, I'd like to note that there's a large difference between imposing your values on someone else (IC or OOC) and sticking up for them.
I don't usually discuss Casiella's views on such matters, as a Minmatar currently working for an Angel alliance but whose own motivations rarely match outward appearances. But it's safe to say that people (players or characters) who live in glass houses really shouldn't throw stones.
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Casi, for future reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
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As someone who's RL faith tradition has been denigrated in this thread, I'd like to note that there's a large difference between imposing your values on someone else (IC or OOC) and sticking up for them.
It has? I just went back & there are some posts that are mocking the concept of religion in general but nothing I can see that is specific.
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Casi, for future reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg
I don't disagree, and I didn't report the posts or anything. Just noting my point of view, which I believe to be a fair and mature response.
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There are scales. I think OOC that slavery as practiced by the vikings was significantly better than slavery as practiced by the North American colonials. But they were both slavery.
Interesting statement considering the records regarding Viking slavery tend to be much rarer and written by Vikings or by non-slaves in cultures that had slaves. N. American slavery on the other hand has extensive records written in some cases by those who opposed the practice and later on by former slaves. The N. American memory is significantly closer with the descendants of slaves able to point at great-great-grandpa/ma and say he was born a slave.
All the above goes into the discussion of defining "evil." Perspective matters, absolutes are hard to come by.
Hadnt had a chance to read Backstage for a bit do to real life, and started catching up on some threads that I was reading. And I wanted to say, this is a great post, one thats really important when making historical statements, morality statements, and to roleplaying in EVE (or in any game really).
The point about Viking slaves is quite important. "History is written by the victors" and all of that. And, really, its easy to lose perspective in simple language. Mitochondrial DNA studies from Iceland have shown that a good portion of the people there are descended from women taken in raids from the eastern shores of England.
These women were forced to watch their fathers, brothers and sons killed in the raids, they were forced aboard ships, taken to a far off land, forced to work for their captors, raped repeatedly, and forced to give birth to the children of the men who had murdered their sons, brothers and fathers.
This was a horrible fate, every bit as awful as slavery from other eras. The fact that the Vikings called them "wives" doesnt make their slavery any less real. By using Viking terms and definitions, we inadvertently are hijacked by Viking morality as well (and Viking morality was laughably cruel to modern eyes). Its easy to lose perspective on that.
Also, Ulf's characterization as slavery being practiced by "North American colonials" is morally incomplete and in many ways outright dangerous. Slavery wasnt practiced by just the British colonials in North America, it was practiced by the entirety of the British Empire.
Thats an important distinction to make, because by merely saying "the colonials did it", you're ignoring the merchant elite who controlled the British Empire itself. They were the ones who set the laws, most likely owned the slave ships and gave the capital to start the ventures, they produced the guns that were used to buy slaves, and they prospered from the sell of rum and sugar from the Caribbean, and from textile profits made from slave-produced cotton from North America. ( 90% of African slaves ended up in the Caribbean Islands, not North America proper)
Ultimately, Ulf's characterization of slavery as something that was only done by the colonials is dangerous in that it misses those who allowed it, funded it, legalized it, and most likely ultimately profited the most from it (after all, the whole purpose of the British Empire and colonies was to benefit the British people). Of course the colonials were quite responsible, but the practice of slavery is more than simply what overseers do, slavery is practiced by those who allow it and profit from it, regardless of who actually holds the whip. When you're trying to assign blame and get a clear picture of who's doing what, it helps to follow the money and those who set the laws.
All of this is easy to miss, which is why perspective is so important.
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Dear Gottii,
I think that a throw-away line to distinguish between slavery epochs while at the same time saying they were both bad is hardly enough to justify lines such as
Ulf's characterization as slavery being practiced by "North American colonials" is morally incomplete and in many ways outright dangerous.
In trying to pick two things to compare, I didn't say that only those two things existed. It's like I was comparing Toyota cars and Ford cars, and you complained that I wasn't considering the existance of Volvo cars.
It wasn't intended as a complete list of slavery societies throughout the world, (since there are a lot more than I could fit in a short statement, or even a long statement) it was trying to say that it was possible for there to be different degrees of nastiness among varieties of something that I think is pretty evil.