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[BloodBird]

the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.

which would give people some things to think about.

Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?

Grim

also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.

The Gallente would LOVE that.

The players, perhaps not so much. Political suicide and all that. Your Minmatar allies may not mind you bashing Amarrian slavery much, but bashing the Minmatar for slapping their fellows out of society over a patch of ink? Auchie.

[Isobel Mitar]

Regarding the original topic, I think one reason why people may use more atheist arguments against the Amarr religion than, for example, Voluval is that Amarr religion is more visible.

When you start the game, I think the racial descriptions for Amarr explain about their religion, and Amarr characters tend to be very vocal about it, as is fitting. However, there is much less information and noise about other races' religious practices, and to find said information you often need to know where to look for it.

If the player does not happen to be a PF nerd, they may simply be unaware of the religious and spiritual practices of their own race/bloodline. Such a player wanting to express their character's dislike of Amarr race or Amarr religion might well pick pick a way to do it that the player is familiar with from RL, whether they OOC hold to that view or not.

[Natalcya Katla]

The Matari discriminate on the basis of juju, the Caldari think they can speak with the dead, and I am convinced that the Federation allows people to make a living practicing homeopathy.

They're all as bad as each other, really. 

[Matariki Rain]

In order to get an argument going about someone else's religion or cultural matters, you generally need:

• to know about it
• to care about it
• to have contact with people who do it, and
• to feel that that raising the matter is less socially awkward/more profitable to you (in whatever way) than not raising it.

Amarrian religion scores higher on the first two points than any other set of beliefs and practices in EVE[1]. It scores well enough on the remaining points that you get your public challenges, debates, spats and shootings.

"Their beliefs are false and wrong; my religion is true and right." Whatever the particulars, this approach isn't news.

"The Amarrian god is no more than a social construct created to reinforce certain social behaviours; my people's spirituality binds us together and underpins our identity." Again, no real news there. (And yes, there's a lot you can unpack from those two phrases if you wish.)

It sounds like there's a particular combination of "you're bad; I'm good" that's irked Louella, but I'm having difficulty seeing that there's an inconsistency there, logical or psychological.


[1] Except, perhaps, blobbing.

[Seriphyn]

Actually, in some ways, Intaki Reborn stuff can be considerably seen in a similar light than the "bad stuff" of the Amarr. After all, it's stated it's "what many foreigners consider a dark art".

Seriphyn has been in a monogamous relationship with an Intaki for the past 2+ months, however, he has just found out they are a reborn. What does this make them? He's fallen in love with the dying carcass of someone else, no? Who is the woman he loves, herself, or the previous being?

With OOC morality and only OOC morality, that's pretty fucking twisted and far worse than Amarr slavery, IMO.

[Isobel Mitar]

he has just found out they are a reborn. What does this make them? He's fallen in love with the dying carcass of someone else, no? Who is the woman he loves, herself, or the previous being?

PF is very clear that good quality "clones" are made by making an existing cadaver look like the capsuleer-to-be-cloned by plastic surgery type stuff, and then putting a copy of the brain inside. So after their first clone jump or emergency cloning the capsuleer is essentially a prettified walking corpse. Perhaps being attracted to walking corpses might start to feel less creepy once you are one?

The Intaki Reborn process (if I have understood it correctly - I am no expert on Intaki PF so might have gotten it wrong) mainly seems to differ from "normal" capsuleer cloning in that they copy the Reborn's brain into a living person's body, presumably killing the living person in the process.

I would say the morality angle depends very much on where on the good-bad scale each person puts different things. But I think it is quite clear that from purely OOC angle Eve universe is not a very nice place.

[orange]

the Caldari think they can speak with the dead

Speak at the dead?  Speak to the dead?  Speak well of the dead?

Denominations of Caldari faith!

[hellgremlin]

the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.

which would give people some things to think about.

Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?

Grim

also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.

I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.

[Matariki Rain]

I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it.

It's good. It'd be even better to have more on the public record for new players to pick up and run with. Because this is one of the few canonical sources of internal conflict for people to latch onto it turns up regularly enough in Matari RP that I confess to a certain amount of "Oh, this again".

(Yes, I used an aspect of it myself for my first EVE RP character, combined with Matari stereotrope #2 "So this is freedom, huh?". I made up some troubling cultural issues for my subsequent character, which was just what I needed, but doesn't really help someone new.)

I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

[Astromancer]

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

[Gottii]

the whole thing with the voluval and the outcasts on Vo-shun is now IC as well. there was an ISD news report referencing the chronicle.

which would give people some things to think about.

Exiling people to a grim existence because their mystic tattoo thing is "an evil mark" ?

Grim

also means Gallente people should be protesting about it, and about how the Minmatar are doing things wrong.

I actually wrote that chronicle. I had no idea how much impact it would have on Eve when I wrote it. It's very rewarding to see something like that become canon. I love CCP for letting me sneak it in. The original intent was simply to give the Minmatar a 'stain' of sorts - a glaring example of darkness that almost justified the Amarr in their conquest - it's a tradition they'd see as barbaric, and want to purge, out of some perceived intergalactic white man's burden or god-given superiority complex. I wanted to build on the 'bad marks' and consequences for getting one.

Whats funny, is that a lot of what I pictured as the "weaknesses" or blackness in Matari culture are made a bit moot by the existence of the Amarrians.  For one, I imagine a society made up of 7 tribes and innumerable clans would be fractious and contentious, with quite a few vicious squabbles.   However, with the Amarrians and whatever else breathing down their neck, it would be suicide to be anything but accommodating.

For example, Gottii and CJ's Brutor clan is very much one that was based off of an amalgamation of many raider/warrior societies (Vikings and Sioux/Apache off the top of my head), and if there was no Amarrian/Sansha/whatever overriding threat, its quite possible they would be making a nuisance of themselves.  But the existence of this massive Empire threatening them kinda keeps everyone on their best behavior, as well as an outlet for aggression and raids, etc. 

[Louella Dougans]

I actually wrote that chronicle.

 

[hellgremlin]

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

[Graelyn]

That was the connection I had always made. Good to hear it more or less confirmed as such.

[Astromancer]

And I still want to know more about the story behind "Khadrea’s Law". Nice hook. Tantalising.

I could be very wrong, but didn't the Son of the Amarr heir have a Starkminar (sp?) lover.  I myself assumed it was named after her.  I like the implications of that being the case, but like I said I could be way off.

  I agree with Graelyn on it's nice to get "confirmation" (As much as  can be ).

And since I missed the fact you wrote it earlier, nice job!  It gave some more dimension to my two favorite factions.