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[Mizhara]

I really don't see why people keep assuming weird extremes. This isn't a new thing, or something we haven't dealt with for a decade and a half now. The missions have clearly happened, this isn't in question. Of course we don't go save the Damsel five times a day. Just use some reason and remain a bit vague. Pilot X has fought some Serpentis and some Angels today, on behalf of NPC corp Y. He took on an Amarr fleet operating in Minmatar space. Oh gosh deary me CCP hurfblurfed detailing where some missions can pop up. Clearly this invalidates their existence and it doesn't happen. Faction Z is clearly innocent of everything.

Just be reasonable and smooth the jagged edges of a crap system a bit and it fits just fine.

[Ashley]

Meanwhile, people are still arguing, using the existence of 10+ year old missions as evidence.
"but what about the amarr navy slave raids"

What's so bad in that or what you would like to see people argue about instead?

The same arguments, used by largely the same characters, across three iterations of the intergalactic summit, over ten years.
It never changes. There's never anything new or different. No new perspectives. No new opinions.
The same thread, made a thousand times.

what would I like to see ? something fresh maybe ? is that so much to ask ?

New blood comes in so my guess it is always interesting for them, old guard did that a million times new blood didn't. Also just imo but most of those arguments are conflict content same as having one more frig fight out of those million and one you had before, nothing new but it's kinda fun.

What exactly?

Asking for it - no , expecting  it from others is probably - wishful thinking.

so why are those handful of missions the only ones people consider it acceptable to bring up as 1000% IC occurrences ?

People don't mention having done The Blockade 10 times a day. Or the Damsel in Distress. But suddenly, there's 2 missions involving a strike force that's going to drop virus bombs on a planet, and ooooo, it's proof of government-backed official policy.

Argument runs:
1. The NPCs appear as Navy ships, therefore they are Navy ships.
2. Shooting them, they have Navy tags in loot, which reinforces point 1.
3. They might be rogue units, in which case enemy Government has no control over rogue elements. Shame on enemy Government, proof that enemy Government are incompetent and/or evil.
4. But then, having shot them incurs a standing penalty. Which means they are there officially after all. Which is therefore proof that enemy Government is violating interstellar treaties and all that, and is conclusive proof that enemy Government are evil.


Except.... you can go take a mission from the L4 Republic Security Services agent in Madirmilire system in Domain region, and he'll send you to attack some Amarr Navy ships that are abducting Minmatar people from.... Amarr planets, in Amarr space. 

Or, the L4 agent for Joint Harvesting (an Amarr corporation) in Stirht system in Metropolis region, who'll give you missions to stop the Republic Fleet from virus-bombing inhabited planets.... Minmatar inhabited planets, in Minmatar space. 


Taking these missions at 100% face value, isn't ridiculous ? isn't character-breakingly ridiculous ?

Taking those missions literally to the T does make them look ridiculous. They are colorful depictions of opposing factions to the player and that's it. So exact details of what system, exact numbers etc. aren't really relevant, only thing that is - explanation to the player such things happen in New Eden. Why they occur and who is responsible is up to player's RP and interpretation.

I personally don't see anything bad or lore breaking in those missions and hope CCP will not remove them.

[Karmilla Strife]

I response to the OP. You're not alone in finding it hard to participate in RP since most of the old channels have become inactive. During a recent account lapse I made an Alpha account and joined several IC and OOC channels that I remembered being associated with Gallente RP as well as both summit channels. It was very difficult to find anyone to talk to, or engage in the summit idle banter. Eventually I gave up and resubscribed my main account when friends started contacting me out of game. Even with my main character, I probably wouldn't be able to find meaningful RP without lurking in dozens of channels or being invited by people like Lunarisse and Lasairiona who go out of their way to make social content for other RPers.

[Lasairiona]

I response to the OP. You're not alone in finding it hard to participate in RP since most of the old channels have become inactive. During a recent account lapse I made an Alpha account and joined several IC and OOC channels that I remembered being associated with Gallente RP as well as both summit channels. It was very difficult to find anyone to talk to, or engage in the summit idle banter. Eventually I gave up and resubscribed my main account when friends started contacting me out of game. Even with my main character, I probably wouldn't be able to find meaningful RP without lurking in dozens of channels or being invited by people like Lunarisse and Lasairiona who go out of their way to make social content for other RPers.

 

[Aldrith Shutaq]

So much bellyaching. Just go out and RP. Make new venues and contacts. Gawsh.

The main reason I don't RP as much now is because I just don't have time for it anymore. Less time to play, and If I'm online, I'm probably flying and don't want to put too much concentration on a chat window while people are trying to kill me. I still rabble rouse on the IGS and Summit though.

[Lasairiona]

So much bellyaching. Just go out and RP. Make new venues and contacts. Gawsh.

The main reason I don't RP as much now is because I just don't have time for it anymore. Less time to play, and If I'm online, I'm probably flying and don't want to put too much concentration on a chat window while people are trying to kill me. I still rabble rouse on the IGS and Summit though.

I do enjoy your rabble rousing.

[Ayallah]

It seems like a lot of people in this thread had their rp content dry up so they don't rp anymore.   Graelyn said it page one, there is only so many times you can re-hash the same content.

I just assume a mutual disinterest in that others care very little about whatever content or interactions I might bring via my characters; and I don't care enough about the needs of public validation/bitching/woe is me from what seems like the majority of other roleplayers. I just lock my characters out in my own personal headcanon and carry on exploring other aspects of the game that I do enjoy whether it's pvp, industry, or exploring.

The reward/effort ratio due to all the pointless and stupid bullshit roleplayers bring to the table just doesn't really justify more than the random popping into a channel once or twice a week if even that for me these days.

Veik also nailed it here.


I think people just don't care anymore.

[Morwen Lagann]

Something like that, yeah.

Ran out of stories to tell, ran out of stories to be involved in. All I really have left is Drifter stuff and AT, and CCP needs to put in some serious effort before I think either of those will be enough to keep me logging in more than once a week or every other week.

I actually unsubbed my third account last week. :\

[Veiki]

CCP really can't patch player behaviour though as regards RP beyond offering talking points via news articles, etc.

RP is wholly dependent on other players to actually RP with and since peak acrimony was reached long ago pretty much all that's left is the salted earth.

[Silas Vitalia]

Great thread, lots of nice opinions I enjoyed reading. As always I both love and hate so much about this game.  A wonderfully deep IP and some of the best and most amazing playerbase anywhere, surrounded by a straitjacket of terrible UI and stagnant gameplay.

The core RP issues in this game (relation to NPC factions and overall NPC 'plot', ability/inability to effect other RPers in real ways) have never changed, there was just a critical mass of RPers in years past that could act to paper-over them with enough content.  When the critical mass isn't there the problems are that much more visible.  It matters less when you can't do certain things if there are enough other nerds like you out there to go do your own stories and conflict with other doing their own stories. When that number drops too low, you are just farting into the wind by yourself.

This game needed a top-to-bottom rework years ago for the core gameplay loops and fundamental "sandbox" issues and even more importantly the direction of the IP, and CCP leadership was not up to the task.  It doesn't negate the early brilliant work, it doesn't negate the continued great work of so many of the employees, but they have been shitting the bed for years now in a holding pattern treading water and incrementally adjusting things when they need to be breaking the paradigm like they used to.

If you don't believe me check out the pace and -dramatic- scope changes of the early expansions, and then watch the years of stumbling when they grew too big too fast without clear goals and thrashed about in 50 different half-assed directions and couldn't stick the landing on any of them, bleeding time and resources and community goodwill.

I've had no exaggeration some of the most wonderful and cherished gameplay experiences ever on this game and with these people, and also some of the most head-scratching and disappointing as well with where they have taken the property.

Where are subscriber numbers at these days anyway? Any graphs up there charting back to 2003? How many do they need to stay afloat?

[Morwen Lagann]

RP is wholly dependent on other players to actually RP with

I think, in many ways, little else needs to be said. If you can't find people to write stories with that everyone finds enjoyable and meaningful then there's only so long that the gameplay can keep you entertained before you run out of steam trying to find people.

It's why I'm elsewhere for RP. I know what Morwen and Naoko are up to in the background here, at the very least, and I'm pretty happy with where things have ended up for them. If CCP gives us some serious stuff to work with that would necessitate either of them doing actually important spacethings, then great, maybe I'll get active again. But until then, I'll keep writing stories in an environment that isn't filled with salt, unpleasant OOC drama, or people who are predisposed towards the RP-to-win mentality.

I do miss most of you, but... I think it's kinda telling how tired and burnt-out I am with everything when I can't even be bothered to properly host the flagship event for my own goddamn venue even on a day I was actually flying in an AT match.

(The above all said, if people do want to RP with Morwen or Naoko, feel free to write to them via evemail and give me a prod here, on Slack, or Discord if you have me there; they may not be doing much running around visiting people but they will take time to respond to people who write to them if I'm informed about it!)

[Veiki]

This game needed a top-to-bottom rework years ago for the core gameplay loops and fundamental "sandbox" issues and even more importantly the direction of the IP, and CCP leadership was not up to the task.  It doesn't negate the early brilliant work, it doesn't negate the continued great work of so many of the employees, but they have been shitting the bed for years now in a holding pattern treading water and incrementally adjusting things when they need to be breaking the paradigm like they used to.

The real tragedy is that even given that, in the current modern gaming environment CCP is still one of the few companies that isn't making Yet-Another-MOBA-Game, rehashing another generic FPS sequel, or an MMO with the exact same global cooldown ability-chain gameplay that was introduced in Everquest 20+ years ago.

As for the RP itself in Eve, looking at it over the years the self-defeating aspect of it for me is the over-prioritization of politics in it. When the emphasis is continuously on politics all you end up with is constant polarization along pre-determined factional lines where there's little middle-ground to actually explore and interact with you know, the actual bloody characters and their individual stories.

The constant drive to "win" by being the most loyal loyalist who was ever loyal to the best faction that was ever a faction ever made because I chose that faction is what has increasingly killed any form of collaborative interaction outside of fellow loyalists who are also the most loyal to x faction ever.

And I mean seriously, when you're practically given free-reign as a capsuleer being an extralegal entity with few restrictions able to define in depth all kinds of background and motivations the ones that are seems to be: Oh, I'll go harangue everyone else because they're not ultra loyal like me while waving a flag.

[Silas Vitalia]

This game needed a top-to-bottom rework years ago for the core gameplay loops and fundamental "sandbox" issues and even more importantly the direction of the IP, and CCP leadership was not up to the task.  It doesn't negate the early brilliant work, it doesn't negate the continued great work of so many of the employees, but they have been shitting the bed for years now in a holding pattern treading water and incrementally adjusting things when they need to be breaking the paradigm like they used to.

The real tragedy is that even given that, in the current modern gaming environment CCP is still one of the few companies that isn't making Yet-Another-MOBA-Game, rehashing another generic FPS sequel, or an MMO with the exact same global cooldown ability-chain gameplay that was introduced in Everquest 20+ years ago.

As for the RP itself in Eve, looking at it over the years the self-defeating aspect of it for me is the over-prioritization of politics in it. When the emphasis is continuously on politics all you end up with is constant polarization along pre-determined factional lines where there's little middle-ground to actually explore and interact with you know, the actual bloody characters and their individual stories.

The constant drive to "win" by being the most loyal loyalist who was ever loyal to the best faction that was ever a faction ever made because I chose that faction is what has increasingly killed any form of collaborative interaction outside of fellow loyalists who are also the most loyal to x faction ever.

And I mean seriously, when you're practically given free-reign as a capsuleer being an extralegal entity with few restrictions able to define in depth all kinds of background and motivations the ones that are seems to be: Oh, I'll go harangue everyone else because they're not ultra loyal like me while waving a flag.

Those are good points. They could have taken it two ways maybe, introduce actual methods for your loyalty to count and be measured (not whatever shit show the abandoned facwar system became), or entirely remove the ability to be a loyalist through gameplay or lore.

It might have been MUCH more interesting in retrospect if all of the empires made capsuleers, and then immediately decided they didn't want them, and you played the powerful but hunted minority forcing themselves upon the scene after gaining some power.  All your NPC interactions would start from that point, your backgrounds would matter but only in an academic sense....you would all still be hated and not courted perhaps by the npc factions.  Interesting!

[Veiki]

I'm talking about the RP version of what happens a lot in Eve and it's thinking along the lines of: I do x (x can be hisec/lowsec/null/wh/industry/pvp/trading/exploring) therefore the entire game and its players must cater to how I play the game because everyone is not doing it right.

How this has often been expressed in RP, and not just in Eve either, is that it's like everyone writes their characters as the one on the Heroic Journey which just creates an absurdity of everyone wanting to be that humble blacksmith who is secretly the bastard child of the King and who ends up slaying the Big Bad Evil to save the universe then goes off to bang the princess.

Space Opera and High Fantasy is all well and good, but in a lot of ways they can also tend to devalue the characters because so much emphasis is placed on the overarching narratives of good vs. evil or what have you. So yeah, it just ends up in a shitshow where it seems like everyone is more obsessed about making everyone validate that they're the most relevant and important character on the stage -- I mean, shit, just look at how many RP'ers go off and roll about being an Amarr Holder because it's a position of importance and authority in the Empire.

The net effect is that all the emphasis ends up placed on the overall narrative -- the politics -- and how one's own character is the most important and relevant who has the most impact on the game world because they have to be recognized as the fucking Chosen One over everyone else. In that sense, for me, blaming CCP for RP is really about: "I want Live Events and shit so I can insert my character into them about being the most uber relevant dude in the whole of New Eden."

What's forgotten about that attitude is that you're essentially just making the entire story focus like a Michael Bay film or yet another Superhero film -- it's all about the spectacle and the character agency ends up wholly in service to the plot about heroes saving the world from big bads.

I mean, I felt Rogue One was a better Star Wars movie than any of the trilogies.

Equally I felt Logan was a better superhero movie than everything else before it.

The core reason was they reduced the scope to focus more on just the characters themselves, and not giant spectacle versus the big evils that have to be slain by the ubermensch hero, who had to try and deal with their own problems and history. Which is basically the format of a good novel -- a bunch of characters with their own problems and baggage who have to try and deal with it together with other characters.

[Jev North]

[...]it's like everyone writes their characters as the one on the Heroic Journey which just creates an absurdity of everyone wanting to be that humble blacksmith who is secretly the bastard child of the King and who ends up slaying the Big Bad Evil to save the universe then goes off to bang the princess[...]

I'd love it if this were true; at least people would be doing something other than sniping at  each other on the IGS.

(Actually, I think part of the general craptitude is latent frustration about the ways in which EVE thwarts the level 1-20, stable hand to dragonslayer narrative conditioning that D&D inflicted on us all.)