Want to know what I think is killing RP? Extremely tight molding and dictating of what is "proper RP". Let people play what they want to play. You want to bash shit in null? Go right ahead. You want to just chill in high-sec and arrange costume parties. or use EVE as a glorified chat client? Just as valid ways to play and roleplay, IMO.
Ok, here goes: I think that's goddamn childish. Having a feud with a character does not oblige them to a Claw-Plach, and if you really want to fight, that is on you to do. No one is obliged to give you a fight just because they are roleplayers. If they run their mouth and get blabbed, and understand that they got blabbed because of that, then they really shouldn't complain. I play my character with the very real knowledge that she may upset someone she shouldn't, and I'm prepared to live with the consequences - but I am not going to go out of my way to make it easy on them - why would I? My character has other people to care for as well, namely the crew, and she will not throw their lives away just sate some other edgelord capsuleers ego. I can back my "risk-aversion" by in-character reasons, and they are just as valid as yours for being a "nulltard."Teinyhr, did I at any point say anyone was obliged to provide a fight? Did I at any point say anyone was obliged to make it easy? Maybe don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that this overwhelming lack of willingness to actually reflect spoken words with action in the game is in the end rather harmful to the RP of Eve. For the lack of a better metaphor, it's like tabletop roleplayers never leaving the initial tavern and seeing the rest of the world, leaving the 'campaign' fallow and stagnant until the GM throws their hands in the air and shuts down the game.
In general I've been lately pretty annoyed by this attitude that you have to be a fucking grimdark murdermachine to roleplay in EVE. It is not risk-aversion to try and avoid pointless deaths. My character - my only character, who by the way can't put 40 billion ISK at risk because she probably has never owned that much ISK, even everything ever owned put together - is fucking tired of killing. That does not mean she won't do it, but she prefers to avoid it. Are you really going to tell me I can't play this kind of character, because it is the wrong kind of, "risk-averse" RP? Frankly, a lot of this rant sounds a terrible lot of "you're doing it wrong" kind of prattling, and you know what, I'll gladly do it wrong, whether you like it or not. I'll stay true to my characters story, because I want to explore something I never have done before - in most MMO's I've never given killing NPC's and players a second thought, but here I've done so, for the very precise reason that here it actually does matter, in many ways, both OOC and IC.So apparently I must have struck a nerve because I did quite specifically say it's perfectly valid gameplay and RP. In fact: "Of course, this is perfectly valid gameplay. It's perfectly valid RP for that matter." quoth the nulltard. There's no need to get so up in arms that you have to start putting words in my mouth or tilt at the "urdoinitrong" windmill to try and drown my actual argument here.
In relation to this, recently, I opened up a discussion about how I wish to start PvPing again, but if I can claim that as an OOC activity; I got pretty fast told that no, I can't separate that from my RP, because "everything is IC." So, I had to invent ways to circumvent this - namely, whenever I've PvP'd recently I've opened myself up to considerably more danger by letting enemies engage first - and typically nobody in this game engages first unless they are confident they have the advantage, most often by numbers or just vastly stronger ships. I can justify defending myself IC, but not attacking innocent people. Would I like to PvP more? Hell yes! But I can't, because I have to be able to justify it IC. So, my fault for making a semi-pacifist character. Fuck me, right? Well, at least I like to think of it as commitment to character. What was the point of this paragraph? Well, to somewhat explain why I might seem one of those "risk-averse" players, but I don't think I am, I am just somewhat constricted by my choices. Just because I don't fly in null or large alliances doesn't mean I'm killing RP, though.
Want to know what I think is killing RP? Extremely tight molding and dictating of what is "proper RP". Let people play what they want to play. You want to bash shit in null? Go right ahead. You want to just chill in high-sec and arrange costume parties. or use EVE as a glorified chat client? Just as valid ways to play and roleplay, IMO.
Conflict is highly ingrained in EVE, but it doesn't and shouldn't have to be the only thing that matters in EVE. The argument for player interaction would be more important in my opinion, if it didn't take so goddamn long. Roleplayers can be tens of jumps from each other, and unless you're using a Leopard, meeting other roleplayers for "meaningful conflict" can take a long time even if you agree to meet halfway.
If you have the time and conviction for that, then good for you. Don't expect that everyone else is similarly abled.
Lou:
What you're describing is the very peak of risk aversion. And wrong to boot. Competency does not mean 'hiding' things. It means risking things in acceptable risk/reward ratios.
Competence means taking acceptable risks.
without meaningful conflict, the parts that are left become kind of meaningless after it runs out of platitudes.
Are you seriously shitting on someone who spends his space isk to make an event and content for no personal gain?
Teinyhr, did I at any point say anyone was obliged to provide a fight? Did I at any point say anyone was obliged to make it easy? Maybe don't put words in my mouth. What I am saying is that this overwhelming lack of willingness to actually reflect spoken words with action in the game is in the end rather harmful to the RP of Eve. For the lack of a better metaphor, it's like tabletop roleplayers never leaving the initial tavern and seeing the rest of the world, leaving the 'campaign' fallow and stagnant until the GM throws their hands in the air and shuts down the game.
So apparently I must have struck a nerve because I did quite specifically say it's perfectly valid gameplay and RP. In fact: "Of course, this is perfectly valid gameplay. It's perfectly valid RP for that matter." quoth the nulltard. There's no need to get so up in arms that you have to start putting words in my mouth or tilt at the "urdoinitrong" windmill to try and drown my actual argument here.
I don't know where you're getting this "you have to be a fucking grimdark murdermachine to roleplay in Eve" from either. The only thing I keep lamenting here is that people don't back up their words or choices with actual action. This isn't a needle at you, now, is it? If your character is against bloodshed and actually acts upon that, why would you take such umbrage at my words? They're clearly not aimed at you in any specific way. My mention of the isk value wasn't aimed at you either, it was a response to Louella implying competency means hiding things from risk.
Hmm. That could be solved by your character finding a group of valid targets, surely? It's Eve. There's bound to be some people so horrible that there's no redeeming them or their crews, thus justifying shoot on sight, even for a semi-pacifist. Blooders, "nulltards", whatever. Maybe an area of space holds enough significance to her that random capsuleers encroaching upon it are surely ebils and need shooting? Sure, if it's in space, it's IC but there's so much room in a setting like Eve that you can damn near justify anything IC, up to and including pacifists bringing down the wrath.
"Of course, this is perfectly valid gameplay. It's perfectly valid RP for that matter." quoth the nulltard. Where's the balance though? Also, null is hardly a prerequisite for conflict. Hell, it's antithetical to conflict these days since you're not going to find many roleplayers out there. I think I've maybe shared local with Arrendis and Utari a couple of times, and can't actually think of a moment when we've shared grids. Highsec doesn't have to mean shipspinning in a station.
Again, please don't put words in my mouth. No one, quite literally no one has said 'it's the only thing that matters'. It is however, pretty much completely absent. Especially in a way that would matter, like groups actually locking horns over something. Lamenting something having pretty much completely died off compared to the days of when RP was several orders of magnitude more active in Eve doesn't mean it is the only thing that matters.
There's a reason RP has almost completely died off in Eve compared to back in the day, and I'm pretty sure that a massive chunk of Eve's gameplay and the setting's complexity now being pretty much vilified by the RP community is to blame right alongside CCP's decision to freeze the world in place.
(http://i.imgur.com/tyTc1Nl.jpg)Are you seriously shitting on someone who spends his space isk to make an event and content for no personal gain?
No.
contrast to what Mizhara said earlier about "actually playing the game".
Do nullsec entities announce what time their capital shipyard finishes its latest Titan build job ?
Announcing the time and location, would "generate content".
Or are such industrial activities concealed within industrial corps far removed from the common membership, so as to minimise leaks and so on.
Because there doesn't seem to be a place for characters that aren't out there actively doing something, and out there actively doing something most of the time means shooting at people, scanning down stuff to shoot at or to be shot at, or mining. Industrials, scientists and people who generally don't wish to engage in destruction for their own reasons are derided for being useless and their opinions worth nothing. So it feels like the only acceptable type of character to play is someone who actively wants to kill other people, for whatever reason, just as long as they want to kill.
I would strongly disagree with this. ARC and SFRIM immediately spring to mind as science and industrial/pve heavy RP groups, and I personally have more respect for them than I do for many pvp groups. Their RP (at least publicly) is strong, interesting, and progresses character, all without any real form of pvp orientation.
I don't like to bring Nauplius up, but consider this:It seems kida malevolent in forcing your opponents be the one holding the dagger and making the sacrifices. Igniting fire methodically untill it slowly devours everything leaving only the beast inside, very sani-sabik imo.
A Sani Sabik ritual summoning temple, the goal is to sacrifice people, to the red god, in order to do something.
There's the logistics involved in collecting the sacrifices, building the temple, and keeping it in operation long enough.
Now, if the Imperial Navy found out about it, then, they'd send a task force to eliminate it. Or hire a mercenary force to eliminate it. (This is actually the plot of the 'Ritualist Raids' level4 mission).
So, it is in the sani sabik's interest to keep things as quiet as possible, to allow the ritual to complete.
Announcing that the temple is being built in a specific place and will be completed on Saturday, kind of goes against the whole objective of the exercise. It's saturday morning cartoon villain style.
:|
So maybe give someone who provides stuff some leeway when it comes to immersion and if you really can't stomach it, just don't interact.
I mean, we're surviving reading your 'I'm just a dumb blonde space nun' shtick without bringing out the torches either.:ugh:
Meanwhile, people are still arguing, using the existence of 10+ year old missions as evidence.
"but what about the amarr navy slave raids"
"but what about the minmatar bioweapon attacks"
"but what about the gallente illegal settlements"
"but what about the caldari building military installations on the monuments to the 1st caldari-gallente war"
and so on.
Used as evidence against anyone and everyone who doesn't fit a particular mould.
"SFRIM are good people"
"but what about the navy slave raids ?"
"electus matari are honorable people"
"But what about the minmatar virus bombings ?"
and so on.
vOv
Meanwhile, people are still arguing, using the existence of 10+ year old missions as evidence.What's so bad in that or what you would like to see people argue about instead?
"but what about the amarr navy slave raids"
"but what about the minmatar bioweapon attacks"
"but what about the gallente illegal settlements"
"but what about the caldari building military installations on the monuments to the 1st caldari-gallente war"
and so on.
Used as evidence against anyone and everyone who doesn't fit a particular mould.
"SFRIM are good people"
"but what about the navy slave raids ?"
"electus matari are honorable people"
"But what about the minmatar virus bombings ?"
and so on.
vOv
That is a Grade A post Ioannis_Sepphiros. Well said.Agreed.
Meanwhile, people are still arguing, using the existence of 10+ year old missions as evidence.What's so bad in that or what you would like to see people argue about instead?
"but what about the amarr navy slave raids"
New blood comes in so my guess it is always interesting for them, old guard did that a million times new blood didn't. Also just imo but most of those arguments are conflict content same as having one more frig fight out of those million and one you had before, nothing new but it's kinda fun.Meanwhile, people are still arguing, using the existence of 10+ year old missions as evidence.What's so bad in that or what you would like to see people argue about instead?
"but what about the amarr navy slave raids"
The same arguments, used by largely the same characters, across three iterations of the intergalactic summit, over ten years.
It never changes. There's never anything new or different. No new perspectives. No new opinions.
The same thread, made a thousand times.
what would I like to see ? something fresh maybe ? is that so much to ask ?
so why are those handful of missions the only ones people consider it acceptable to bring up as 1000% IC occurrences ?Taking those missions literally to the T does make them look ridiculous. They are colorful depictions of opposing factions to the player and that's it. So exact details of what system, exact numbers etc. aren't really relevant, only thing that is - explanation to the player such things happen in New Eden. Why they occur and who is responsible is up to player's RP and interpretation.
People don't mention having done The Blockade 10 times a day. Or the Damsel in Distress. But suddenly, there's 2 missions involving a strike force that's going to drop virus bombs on a planet, and ooooo, it's proof of government-backed official policy.
Argument runs:
1. The NPCs appear as Navy ships, therefore they are Navy ships.
2. Shooting them, they have Navy tags in loot, which reinforces point 1.
3. They might be rogue units, in which case enemy Government has no control over rogue elements. Shame on enemy Government, proof that enemy Government are incompetent and/or evil.
4. But then, having shot them incurs a standing penalty. Which means they are there officially after all. Which is therefore proof that enemy Government is violating interstellar treaties and all that, and is conclusive proof that enemy Government are evil.
Except.... you can go take a mission from the L4 Republic Security Services agent in Madirmilire system in Domain region, and he'll send you to attack some Amarr Navy ships that are abducting Minmatar people from.... Amarr planets, in Amarr space. :ugh:
Or, the L4 agent for Joint Harvesting (an Amarr corporation) in Stirht system in Metropolis region, who'll give you missions to stop the Republic Fleet from virus-bombing inhabited planets.... Minmatar inhabited planets, in Minmatar space. :ugh:
Taking these missions at 100% face value, isn't ridiculous ? isn't character-breakingly ridiculous ?
I response to the OP. You're not alone in finding it hard to participate in RP since most of the old channels have become inactive. During a recent account lapse I made an Alpha account and joined several IC and OOC channels that I remembered being associated with Gallente RP as well as both summit channels. It was very difficult to find anyone to talk to, or engage in the summit idle banter. Eventually I gave up and resubscribed my main account when friends started contacting me out of game. Even with my main character, I probably wouldn't be able to find meaningful RP without lurking in dozens of channels or being invited by people like Lunarisse and Lasairiona who go out of their way to make social content for other RPers.
So much bellyaching. Just go out and RP. Make new venues and contacts. Gawsh.
The main reason I don't RP as much now is because I just don't have time for it anymore. Less time to play, and If I'm online, I'm probably flying and don't want to put too much concentration on a chat window while people are trying to kill me. I still rabble rouse on the IGS and Summit though.
I just assume a mutual disinterest in that others care very little about whatever content or interactions I might bring via my characters; and I don't care enough about the needs of public validation/bitching/woe is me from what seems like the majority of other roleplayers. I just lock my characters out in my own personal headcanon and carry on exploring other aspects of the game that I do enjoy whether it's pvp, industry, or exploring.
The reward/effort ratio due to all the pointless and stupid bullshit roleplayers bring to the table just doesn't really justify more than the random popping into a channel once or twice a week if even that for me these days.
RP is wholly dependent on other players to actually RP with
This game needed a top-to-bottom rework years ago for the core gameplay loops and fundamental "sandbox" issues and even more importantly the direction of the IP, and CCP leadership was not up to the task. It doesn't negate the early brilliant work, it doesn't negate the continued great work of so many of the employees, but they have been shitting the bed for years now in a holding pattern treading water and incrementally adjusting things when they need to be breaking the paradigm like they used to.
This game needed a top-to-bottom rework years ago for the core gameplay loops and fundamental "sandbox" issues and even more importantly the direction of the IP, and CCP leadership was not up to the task. It doesn't negate the early brilliant work, it doesn't negate the continued great work of so many of the employees, but they have been shitting the bed for years now in a holding pattern treading water and incrementally adjusting things when they need to be breaking the paradigm like they used to.
The real tragedy is that even given that, in the current modern gaming environment CCP is still one of the few companies that isn't making Yet-Another-MOBA-Game, rehashing another generic FPS sequel, or an MMO with the exact same global cooldown ability-chain gameplay that was introduced in Everquest 20+ years ago.
As for the RP itself in Eve, looking at it over the years the self-defeating aspect of it for me is the over-prioritization of politics in it. When the emphasis is continuously on politics all you end up with is constant polarization along pre-determined factional lines where there's little middle-ground to actually explore and interact with you know, the actual bloody characters and their individual stories.
The constant drive to "win" by being the most loyal loyalist who was ever loyal to the best faction that was ever a faction ever made because I chose that faction is what has increasingly killed any form of collaborative interaction outside of fellow loyalists who are also the most loyal to x faction ever.
And I mean seriously, when you're practically given free-reign as a capsuleer being an extralegal entity with few restrictions able to define in depth all kinds of background and motivations the ones that are seems to be: Oh, I'll go harangue everyone else because they're not ultra loyal like me while waving a flag.
[...]it's like everyone writes their characters as the one on the Heroic Journey which just creates an absurdity of everyone wanting to be that humble blacksmith who is secretly the bastard child of the King and who ends up slaying the Big Bad Evil to save the universe then goes off to bang the princess[...]I'd love it if this were true; at least people would be doing something other than sniping at each other on the IGS.
[...]it's like everyone writes their characters as the one on the Heroic Journey which just creates an absurdity of everyone wanting to be that humble blacksmith who is secretly the bastard child of the King and who ends up slaying the Big Bad Evil to save the universe then goes off to bang the princess[...]I'd love it if this were true; at least people would be doing something other than sniping at each other on the IGS.
(Actually, I think part of the general craptitude is latent frustration about the ways in which EVE thwarts the level 1-20, stable hand to dragonslayer narrative conditioning that D&D inflicted on us all.)
Well, to be honest, your character is a capsuleer. That's pretty overpowered in the general setting already. I mean, mine is just trying to make sense of the world and get by for the most part. And she can fly literal space cities at the same time. It does tend to skew the perspective a little bit.
Then, there's the part where your character is only as relevant as others think it os, and everyone else is a capsuleer too. It does get real messy real fast.
There's always interpersonal drama, or taking the struggles in the actual game in-character, but that tends to get soap-operatic in a hurry, I've found; interpersonal stuff without further context is very hard to do right, and a lot of people are really poorly equipped to deal with conflict when playing for keeps.