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[Lillith Blackheart]

But don't just slap aside ideas because you think it misrepresents your view of the sansha. You may not like it but I recall CCP spending a good week pulling a borg. what actually happened? I don't know, but most people in the game know less then I do, and the few that know more probally aren't talking. So I'd get used to people thinking that the Sansha want to zombiefy people because the evidence is there to support the stereotype.

Sansha had a particular goal that I don't really want to give away in case (once Tyrannis/PI launch settles down) CCP decides to finish what they started (holding my breath I am not).

Way to put it, from everything I have gleaned from the PF as well as my dealings IC with CCP (including Aurora period) as well as my work reading lots of ingame content.

Nation is basically three Castes.

At the bottom are the True Slaves. They are the military force -- mostly expendable. They exist to elevate and protect the Citizens. We (as players) have expanded the True Slave concept also into "utility citizens" such as janitors, laborers, etc. Bottom-barrel jobs that are generally menial work and whatnot. Again, expanding on the concept that they exist to protect and elevate the Citizens.

In the middle are the Citizens. These are the vast majority of Nation members. They're just like you and me. People who live day to day trying to be happy and enjoy their existance. Due to the nature of the True Slaves, this allows them more freedom to do as they please. We, as players, have expanded them from simply "run of the mill people who live there" to philosophers, artists, musicians, etc; Creativity and Free Expression being their strengths. Obviously we're purposefully emphasizing a subset of the Citizenry there, most of them are just average Joes.

At the Top is Sansha and his various voices. These are those like Sansha's Speaker, Slave Heavenbound, Slave Tama, and so on. These are like an Oligarchy that are all wired into one mind. This is the "hivemind" that everyone refers to.

Note that we seperate the True Slave from the hivemind. I think this is important to seperate, as the amount of sheer trauma involved in a segment of the hivemind being destroyed with such daily basis is not something that a human mind is really capable of dealing with (imo). It'd be like losing your leg thousands of times a day.

Yeah, ok, so I went on a bit of a tangent I suppose. Though what the point is is that the Slaves aren't really the "stereotype". They're more the exception than the rule. The fact that that is what CCP focusses on doesn't suddenly make them the rule, that's just what people would interact with, given that there was a two year gap where players weren't writing stories. Given that most of the Capsuleers involved in Sansha's Nation (since there really aren't many) RP have been at it for years and -- barring Ghost who is emotionless due to entirely different IC reasons -- show absolutely no sign of being implanted, one would somewhat think that such cognitive dissonance IC would be difficult to continue to maintain.

Make sense?

[Lillith Blackheart]

As a note: In no way does this imply that people should be "totally ok" with Nation's actions. I mean, we're talking about an entity that enslaves people against their will (yes, IC we say otherwise, but OOC it's pretty damn obvious. If you don't think there's a KGB-like entity that causes people to "disappear" and then end up as a janitor on some other planet or fighting on the front lines when they are dissidents then you're a looney) and generally goes around causing havoc because of a century-old grudge.

We're talking about really bad people here, that's a given.

They're just not the Borg.

[Natalcya Katla]

My roleplay is mine.

[Vlad Cetes]

Funny a non sansha player proposed this. Are there any sansha players that actually want to zombify people?

No, we aren't the borg.   

Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!
Actually I think being a Vlad Borg-slave would be worse than being a Sansha.

[orange]

They're just not the Borg.

And the Caldari aren't space nazis, but that is not how some players and CCP staff portray them.  However, at first contact with the material, this comparison makes sense and plenty of players stick close to the pseudo-military/fascist concept of the State, even after they have been educated a bit (royalist/imperialist  ).


As to the breakdown of Nation.  Players, capsuleers, non-Nation people are unlikely to interact with the middle segment, the Citizens, but mostly with the True Slaves and Oligarchy.  Both these entities appear borg-like in form and function.  Thus at first contact, Sansha is borg-like.

What Aria's player proposed is a means to take part in the story and have player Slaves, not Citizens.   Creating Citizens is a different matter and is where your propaganda machine comes in.

My roleplay is mine.

But it isn't.  While you may control the opinions and thought processes of your character; there are plenty of opportunities for both CCP and other players to affect your RP.

Taking my characters as examples, Dex Nederland has been busily running a for-profit corporation for the past 2 years while Koroe Tankyuusha has been a long time employee of a for-profit corporation for more than 2 & 1/2 years.  When FW broke, it had a direct impact on my RP and the RP of those whom I RPed with, an example of CCP affecting my RP - the State, and Lai Dai with it, was going to war and needed manpower!

Player influence includes such things as no longer operating an office in Elonaya (the corp's HQ) because the cost had become prohibitive.

Other examples of players influencing other players RP is wardecs.  Generally agreements are not made before hand to pursue a war against target entities.

[Natalcya Katla]

My roleplay is mine.

But it isn't.  While you may control the opinions and thought processes of your character; there are plenty of opportunities for both CCP and other players to affect your RP.

Taking my characters as examples, Dex Nederland has been busily running a for-profit corporation for the past 2 years while Koroe Tankyuusha has been a long time employee of a for-profit corporation for more than 2 & 1/2 years.  When FW broke, it had a direct impact on my RP and the RP of those whom I RPed with, an example of CCP affecting my RP - the State, and Lai Dai with it, was going to war and needed manpower!

Player influence includes such things as no longer operating an office in Elonaya (the corp's HQ) because the cost had become prohibitive.

Other examples of players influencing other players RP is wardecs.  Generally agreements are not made before hand to pursue a war against target entities.

While I agree that my roleplay can and should be influenced by in-game realities, including PVP in whichever ways actual game mechanics and setting developments allow or dictate, that does not make it any less mine. Surrendering my character's thoughts, opinions or actions into the hands of another player, however, does. It makes me feel it's not my character anymore, and while the risk of that happening might be a real thrill to some, to me it's a huge fucking turn-off. Control over my characters is precious to me, and just the same as with every other thing that's precious to me (and even most stuff which isn't), I'm not putting it up as gambling stakes unless I absolutely have to.

[The Cosmopolite]

Hm.

I think the only thing I'd be strongly minded to query in Lillith's presentation above is the idea that the citizens are the 'vast majority'.

That's quite a claim.

I don't think it is supported clearly by any evidence.

Indeed, I don't think the citizens being the majority is clearly supported, let alone the tacking on of 'vast' to it.

However, there are terminological difficulties. The three tier hierarchy is not exactly wrong as a model but there are problems with it. Worth noting the original vision appears to have been a two tier hierarchy of True Slaves and citizens. The 'hive mind' that Sansha himself seems to have felt the need to create as an overall controlling intelligence appears to be a post-fall of Nation or possibly late pre-fall development. I am inclined to suspect that the hive-mind is the ultimate logical development of the original citizens tier. That is, I feel that the hive-mind may possibly be, in fact, the greatest portion of the surviving 'citizens' of the pre-fall Nation. No doubt others survived, and some may well have become famed Nation generals or other key figures among the splintered Nation. But the PF does seem pretty clear on the True Slaves making up the vast bulk of survivors from the fall. Obviously, more citizens have been recruited since then.

At any rate, I am not sure much more can be claimed with accuracy beyond saying that there are a lot of both True Slaves and citizens (if the distinction makes any sense, see below).  

When it comes to True Slaves today the reality appears to be a spectrum running from 'Borg-like' (I'm not a fan of the terminology but it conveys the idea) True Slaves to virtually independent True Slaves. Indeed, every conceivable role in society does appear to be filled by members of Sansha's Nation as it is today with varying degrees of cybernetic integration.

I actually wonder how useful the distinction between True Slaves and citizens is given that very broad spectrum. I think that the citizens of today (and I do think pre-fall and post-fall Nation are two different societies) see themselves as part of a civilization with almost infinitely varying degrees of cybernetic integration. Indeed, if 'citizen' means a member of Nation society then I am not sure it is actually distinct from 'True Slave' at all. Indeed, 'True Slave' is a term the more independent members of Nation appear not to like or even feel is accurate when used of any entity in Nation. The most integrated and tightly-controlled members of Nation are still, when all is said and done, members of Nation. Are they any less citizens? It's a question of Nation psychology.

A 'citizen' in the old pre-fall sense might be someone totally independent, not subject to any mind-control or linking-in implantation, and able to leave Nation and never come back, if they really wanted to. I actually am not too sure there are that many of those in Nation these days. But it's an open question.

I might add that it really is quite important to read 'The Burning Life' as it has much to say on this topic. I found its take on Sansha's Nation to be pleasingly non-stereotypical.

It also casts considerable doubt on the idea that contact would normally be with the most highly integrated and controlled (ie. the stereotypical True Slaves).

I think the problem is that while the stereotype of everyone in Nation being a 'True Slave' has been resisted by many RPers, the sad truth is that the stereotype of what a True Slave actually is (or can be) has not been resisted with equal vigor. In a certain sense, it's two ways of resisting the same notion and I am not sure the right way of resisting it has been adopted.

Cosmo

PS. I'd have to say that I'm not sure it is true that players alone have extended the concept of True Slaves from soldiers and ship crews to other utility roles. It is at the very least prefigured by the logic of Sansha's conception and I personally think it's been a latent view that this was so within CCP for as long as it has been the view of interested players.

[GoGo Yubari]

I think the only thing I'd be strongly minded to query in Lillith's presentation above is the idea that the citizens are the 'vast majority'.

That's quite a claim.

I don't think it is supported clearly by any evidence.

Indeed, I don't think the citizens being the majority is clearly supported, let alone the tacking on of 'vast' to it.

However, there are terminological difficulties. The three tier hierarchy is not exactly wrong as a model but there are problems with it. Worth noting the original vision appears to have been a two tier hierarchy of True Slaves and citizens. The 'hive mind' that Sansha himself seems to have felt the need to create as an overall controlling intelligence appears to be a post-fall of Nation or possibly late pre-fall development. I am inclined to suspect that the hive-mind is the ultimate logical development of the original citizens tier. That is, I feel that the hive-mind may possibly be, in fact, the greatest portion of the surviving 'citizens' of the pre-fall Nation. No doubt others survived, and some may well have become famed Nation generals or other key figures among the splintered Nation. But the PF does seem pretty clear on the True Slaves making up the vast bulk of survivors from the fall. Obviously, more citizens have been recruited since then.

You know, I came in here ready to semi-rant, but Cosmo just nailed all my points. I'm in pretty much complete agreement, so I'll just raise some bulletin points about how I see the Sansha as presented by CCP:

* The True Slaves are the vast majority. Sansha planets and stations teem with them, doing the soldiering and the menial work.

* I basically agree with the three caste division, except:
 - I don't think the citizen caste is large at all. It'd be a small, elite group.
 - I don't think the highest caste is large at all. They'd be hidden masters among that elite group.

* I think everyone is linked to the "hive-mind", whatever its exact form in the Nation is.
 - I'm not sure if the hive-mind is a full blown Borg entity thing, not yet at least.
 - Yes, I think it extends to things like really high up members being able to control True Slaves like drones.
 - Yes, I do think the really, really high up members do in fact control even the upper class citizens in this way.

* Now, as for my own speculation, I think Sansha has become the hive-mind. He may have a physical body, in fact he may have many scattered about, but he ultimately resides in their network. Indeed, Sansha is the Nation. This may or may not be apparent to all his followers, in various ways.

* Indeed, as Cosmo speculates, I don't think the True Slave idea has been fully realized. I think a True Slave is one who is truly connected to the network, truly augmented, truly uplifted. Yes, most of these are menial roles and slave-like positions, which seem abhorrent to us, but not to the fanatics of the Nation. Being a true slave is the ultimate achievement. It is becoming the Nation. It's also clear from the officer descriptions that there are True Slaves who are not confined to those slave-like positions.

Sansha set out to create a utopia. He had a vision. The Nation is that vision, the network which connects his followers. It is truly something different, it is beyond what those who dwell in the empires can even comprehend. Let them have their FaceBook and Twitter. They do not understand what it means to be a part of the Nation. That is the utopia he created, or at least sought to create (as Cosmo alludes). It is, however, broken or simply incomplete, but it is simmering, plotting, rebuilding, growing.

As for being zombie-like, as well as whether you are part of the first, second or third tier, I don't think it is always so clear cut. It's a sliding scale. To the highest embodiment of the Nation, even a second level citizen is zombie-like, because they can't see what they can, the millions of camera drones controlled by the Nation are his eyes, everyone's mind is his mind. At the highest level, individuality doesn't matter, because there is only the Nation and that is why it is really not immoral at all what the Nation does. The empires simply do not understand.

Indeed, I think it's entirely possible that the lowest tier of the Nation is actually the highest. The True Slaves are the masters, after a fashion (even though most of them lack the capacity for anything but obedience and the completion of their slave-like labour).

[Lillith Blackheart]

Things I find interesting:

People constantly say that where the PF lacks, we should fill in.

However the instant it disagrees with their initial perceptions, it's wrong of the person to do so, even if what the person is doing in no way violates the PF.

So what is really being said, apparently, is "You should really fill in where the PF lacks so long as you agree with what I think to begin with."

Fascinating.

More directly on point:

- I don't think the highest caste is large at all. They'd be hidden masters among that elite group.

Given that I listed exactly 4 entities in the list of the oligarchy, I don't see where this disagrees with me.

- I don't think the citizen caste is large at all. It'd be a small, elite group.

I don't agree with that in the slightest. In fact the very concept of this flies in the face of any sort of logical underpinning to the way Nation is described in the PF. What would make you think that the citizenship of a political entity would be a small, elite group?

* I think everyone is linked to the "hive-mind", whatever its exact form in the Nation is.
 - I'm not sure if the hive-mind is a full blown Borg entity thing, not yet at least.
 - Yes, I think it extends to things like really high up members being able to control True Slaves like drones.
 - Yes, I do think the really, really high up members do in fact control even the upper class citizens in this way.

Which you're welcome to believe, I suppose, but given that almost the entire Sansha RP community has an entirely different view of it, and has been pushing that view for a great deal of time, and nothing CCP has put forth has disagreed with that, I'm not sure what to say, I guess.



On the initial point, why is it that there's such a strong resistance to the way the entire Sansha RP community (which is small, granted) has presented Sansha? We haven't violated the PF. Our entire perspective has been drawn by extending the logical foundations of the PF in the vein that they are intended, and to be honest we haven't so much "created" anything as we have taken what was there and made it more all-encompassing. Why is it that someone can go ahead and create a polytheistic setup for the Gallente and everyone fawns over it, or can eject a bunch of toxins into space over a planet and everyone goes along with, or can start an Intaki seperatist movement and everyone immediately kowtows to it, (all things which have little-to-no PF backing), but a group of 6 or 8 people pour over what little information there is about Sansha's Nation, humanize it slightly, and expand on the logical steps that are built into it, and there's a massive community movement to resist their efforts?

[The Cosmopolite]

I hope I'm not included in this 'massive community movement' because I certainly am not conscious of being in it.

Nor do I recognise that anything I have said is suggesting people are 'wrong' to extrapolate from PF.

However, I do think that no-one has a greater right to extrapolate from PF than anyone else, no matter what RP community or sub-community they may belong to. Though if it comes to it, I was publicly RPing on themes Sansha and Sansha's Nation in early 2005 and had been RPing on same less visibly before then. So if it is really needed, I think I have some credentials in this discussion. Not that they are needed.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of community involvement and all the rest of it, I think the discussion is on much better ground if it sticks to the PF and what can reasonably be extrapolated from it.

Fact is, there is considerable PF in the Burning Life novel that can't be ignored because it's not going to go away. Moreover, if you stick to the idea of a clear distinction between 'True Slaves' and 'citizens' then I think it is possible that it starts to risk, I'll go no stronger than that, violating PF based on what is in the novel.

I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry if that is a problem for some people. But it's not a problem of my making. I'm reading the PF and giving my own interpretation on the current state of the available PF.

That's all. I make no claim to absolute verity on the subject. But neither am I going to accept anyone else here has the graven word on it.

Read 'The Burning Life' is my strong advice for anyone who wants to get an insider's view of Sansha's Nation. There is a lengthy passage on it. I'm not saying any more because it would be a spoiler.

Cosmo

[Casiella]

Read 'The Burning Life' is my strong advice for anyone who wants to get an insider's view of Sansha's Nation. There is a lengthy passage on it. I'm not saying any more because it would be a spoiler.

QFE, and I believe it sheds considerable light on the current storyline.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I find these discussions less than productive. Our interpretations of the Nation are irrelevant to capsuleers sympathetic to their cause because none of us can live in the culture. What's important is the ideology and motivation for pilots to support their cause.

And people shouldnt have to shell out cash for a book to get a general idea of a faction.

[IzzyChan]

And people shouldnt have to shell out cash for a book to get a general idea of a faction.

Yeah.   It's like our 25 dollar mount for EVE amirite?

[Ghost Hunter]

In regards to the novel,

It is very biased from the perception of the protagonist. I generally don't understand it as being the omnipotent presence of an OOC narrator. Thusly, it is quite flavored for that angle.

[GoGo Yubari]

I was just voicing opinions/interpretations. They're just as good as any others, even if they don't have the backing of the "humanized Sansha RP community". I'll grant you that I am not in favor of humanizing them greatly (if at all) and that my interpretation of the PF doesn't suggest to me that it is necessary. But that's just my take.

It might be interesting if people would just flat out come out with whatever is in that novel. Give warnings for spoilers, but spill the beans and we can get on with the discussion more productively.