Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Lillith Blackheart on 09 Jun 2010, 13:56
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But don't just slap aside ideas because you think it misrepresents your view of the sansha. You may not like it but I recall CCP spending a good week pulling a borg. what actually happened? I don't know, but most people in the game know less then I do, and the few that know more probally aren't talking. So I'd get used to people thinking that the Sansha want to zombiefy people because the evidence is there to support the stereotype.
Sansha had a particular goal that I don't really want to give away in case (once Tyrannis/PI launch settles down) CCP decides to finish what they started (holding my breath I am not).
Way to put it, from everything I have gleaned from the PF as well as my dealings IC with CCP (including Aurora period) as well as my work reading lots of ingame content.
Nation is basically three Castes.
At the bottom are the True Slaves. They are the military force -- mostly expendable. They exist to elevate and protect the Citizens. We (as players) have expanded the True Slave concept also into "utility citizens" such as janitors, laborers, etc. Bottom-barrel jobs that are generally menial work and whatnot. Again, expanding on the concept that they exist to protect and elevate the Citizens.
In the middle are the Citizens. These are the vast majority of Nation members. They're just like you and me. People who live day to day trying to be happy and enjoy their existance. Due to the nature of the True Slaves, this allows them more freedom to do as they please. We, as players, have expanded them from simply "run of the mill people who live there" to philosophers, artists, musicians, etc; Creativity and Free Expression being their strengths. Obviously we're purposefully emphasizing a subset of the Citizenry there, most of them are just average Joes.
At the Top is Sansha and his various voices. These are those like Sansha's Speaker, Slave Heavenbound, Slave Tama, and so on. These are like an Oligarchy that are all wired into one mind. This is the "hivemind" that everyone refers to.
Note that we seperate the True Slave from the hivemind. I think this is important to seperate, as the amount of sheer trauma involved in a segment of the hivemind being destroyed with such daily basis is not something that a human mind is really capable of dealing with (imo). It'd be like losing your leg thousands of times a day.
Yeah, ok, so I went on a bit of a tangent I suppose. Though what the point is is that the Slaves aren't really the "stereotype". They're more the exception than the rule. The fact that that is what CCP focusses on doesn't suddenly make them the rule, that's just what people would interact with, given that there was a two year gap where players weren't writing stories. Given that most of the Capsuleers involved in Sansha's Nation (since there really aren't many) RP have been at it for years and -- barring Ghost who is emotionless due to entirely different IC reasons -- show absolutely no sign of being implanted, one would somewhat think that such cognitive dissonance IC would be difficult to continue to maintain.
Make sense?
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As a note: In no way does this imply that people should be "totally ok" with Nation's actions. I mean, we're talking about an entity that enslaves people against their will (yes, IC we say otherwise, but OOC it's pretty damn obvious. If you don't think there's a KGB-like entity that causes people to "disappear" and then end up as a janitor on some other planet or fighting on the front lines when they are dissidents then you're a looney) and generally goes around causing havoc because of a century-old grudge.
We're talking about really bad people here, that's a given.
They're just not the Borg.
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My roleplay is mine.
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Funny a non sansha player proposed this. Are there any sansha players that actually want to zombify people?
No, we aren't the borg.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!
Actually I think being a Vlad Borg-slave would be worse than being a Sansha.
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They're just not the Borg.
And the Caldari aren't space nazis, but that is not how some players and CCP staff portray them. However, at first contact with the material, this comparison makes sense and plenty of players stick close to the pseudo-military/fascist concept of the State, even after they have been educated a bit (royalist/imperialist :eek:).
As to the breakdown of Nation. Players, capsuleers, non-Nation people are unlikely to interact with the middle segment, the Citizens, but mostly with the True Slaves and Oligarchy. Both these entities appear borg-like in form and function. Thus at first contact, Sansha is borg-like.
What Aria's player proposed is a means to take part in the story and have player Slaves, not Citizens. Creating Citizens is a different matter and is where your propaganda machine comes in.
My roleplay is mine.
But it isn't. While you may control the opinions and thought processes of your character; there are plenty of opportunities for both CCP and other players to affect your RP.
Taking my characters as examples, Dex Nederland has been busily running a for-profit corporation for the past 2 years while Koroe Tankyuusha has been a long time employee of a for-profit corporation for more than 2 & 1/2 years. When FW broke, it had a direct impact on my RP and the RP of those whom I RPed with, an example of CCP affecting my RP - the State, and Lai Dai with it, was going to war and needed manpower!
Player influence includes such things as no longer operating an office in Elonaya (the corp's HQ) because the cost had become prohibitive.
Other examples of players influencing other players RP is wardecs. Generally agreements are not made before hand to pursue a war against target entities.
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My roleplay is mine.
But it isn't. While you may control the opinions and thought processes of your character; there are plenty of opportunities for both CCP and other players to affect your RP.
Taking my characters as examples, Dex Nederland has been busily running a for-profit corporation for the past 2 years while Koroe Tankyuusha has been a long time employee of a for-profit corporation for more than 2 & 1/2 years. When FW broke, it had a direct impact on my RP and the RP of those whom I RPed with, an example of CCP affecting my RP - the State, and Lai Dai with it, was going to war and needed manpower!
Player influence includes such things as no longer operating an office in Elonaya (the corp's HQ) because the cost had become prohibitive.
Other examples of players influencing other players RP is wardecs. Generally agreements are not made before hand to pursue a war against target entities.
While I agree that my roleplay can and should be influenced by in-game realities, including PVP in whichever ways actual game mechanics and setting developments allow or dictate, that does not make it any less mine. Surrendering my character's thoughts, opinions or actions into the hands of another player, however, does. It makes me feel it's not my character anymore, and while the risk of that happening might be a real thrill to some, to me it's a huge fucking turn-off. Control over my characters is precious to me, and just the same as with every other thing that's precious to me (and even most stuff which isn't), I'm not putting it up as gambling stakes unless I absolutely have to.
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Hm.
I think the only thing I'd be strongly minded to query in Lillith's presentation above is the idea that the citizens are the 'vast majority'.
That's quite a claim.
I don't think it is supported clearly by any evidence.
Indeed, I don't think the citizens being the majority is clearly supported, let alone the tacking on of 'vast' to it.
However, there are terminological difficulties. The three tier hierarchy is not exactly wrong as a model but there are problems with it. Worth noting the original vision appears to have been a two tier hierarchy of True Slaves and citizens. The 'hive mind' that Sansha himself seems to have felt the need to create as an overall controlling intelligence appears to be a post-fall of Nation or possibly late pre-fall development. I am inclined to suspect that the hive-mind is the ultimate logical development of the original citizens tier. That is, I feel that the hive-mind may possibly be, in fact, the greatest portion of the surviving 'citizens' of the pre-fall Nation. No doubt others survived, and some may well have become famed Nation generals or other key figures among the splintered Nation. But the PF does seem pretty clear on the True Slaves making up the vast bulk of survivors from the fall. Obviously, more citizens have been recruited since then.
At any rate, I am not sure much more can be claimed with accuracy beyond saying that there are a lot of both True Slaves and citizens (if the distinction makes any sense, see below).
When it comes to True Slaves today the reality appears to be a spectrum running from 'Borg-like' (I'm not a fan of the terminology but it conveys the idea) True Slaves to virtually independent True Slaves. Indeed, every conceivable role in society does appear to be filled by members of Sansha's Nation as it is today with varying degrees of cybernetic integration.
I actually wonder how useful the distinction between True Slaves and citizens is given that very broad spectrum. I think that the citizens of today (and I do think pre-fall and post-fall Nation are two different societies) see themselves as part of a civilization with almost infinitely varying degrees of cybernetic integration. Indeed, if 'citizen' means a member of Nation society then I am not sure it is actually distinct from 'True Slave' at all. Indeed, 'True Slave' is a term the more independent members of Nation appear not to like or even feel is accurate when used of any entity in Nation. The most integrated and tightly-controlled members of Nation are still, when all is said and done, members of Nation. Are they any less citizens? It's a question of Nation psychology.
A 'citizen' in the old pre-fall sense might be someone totally independent, not subject to any mind-control or linking-in implantation, and able to leave Nation and never come back, if they really wanted to. I actually am not too sure there are that many of those in Nation these days. But it's an open question.
I might add that it really is quite important to read 'The Burning Life' as it has much to say on this topic. I found its take on Sansha's Nation to be pleasingly non-stereotypical.
It also casts considerable doubt on the idea that contact would normally be with the most highly integrated and controlled (ie. the stereotypical True Slaves).
I think the problem is that while the stereotype of everyone in Nation being a 'True Slave' has been resisted by many RPers, the sad truth is that the stereotype of what a True Slave actually is (or can be) has not been resisted with equal vigor. In a certain sense, it's two ways of resisting the same notion and I am not sure the right way of resisting it has been adopted.
Cosmo
PS. I'd have to say that I'm not sure it is true that players alone have extended the concept of True Slaves from soldiers and ship crews to other utility roles. It is at the very least prefigured by the logic of Sansha's conception and I personally think it's been a latent view that this was so within CCP for as long as it has been the view of interested players.
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I think the only thing I'd be strongly minded to query in Lillith's presentation above is the idea that the citizens are the 'vast majority'.
That's quite a claim.
I don't think it is supported clearly by any evidence.
Indeed, I don't think the citizens being the majority is clearly supported, let alone the tacking on of 'vast' to it.
However, there are terminological difficulties. The three tier hierarchy is not exactly wrong as a model but there are problems with it. Worth noting the original vision appears to have been a two tier hierarchy of True Slaves and citizens. The 'hive mind' that Sansha himself seems to have felt the need to create as an overall controlling intelligence appears to be a post-fall of Nation or possibly late pre-fall development. I am inclined to suspect that the hive-mind is the ultimate logical development of the original citizens tier. That is, I feel that the hive-mind may possibly be, in fact, the greatest portion of the surviving 'citizens' of the pre-fall Nation. No doubt others survived, and some may well have become famed Nation generals or other key figures among the splintered Nation. But the PF does seem pretty clear on the True Slaves making up the vast bulk of survivors from the fall. Obviously, more citizens have been recruited since then.
You know, I came in here ready to semi-rant, but Cosmo just nailed all my points. I'm in pretty much complete agreement, so I'll just raise some bulletin points about how I see the Sansha as presented by CCP:
* The True Slaves are the vast majority. Sansha planets and stations teem with them, doing the soldiering and the menial work.
* I basically agree with the three caste division, except:
- I don't think the citizen caste is large at all. It'd be a small, elite group.
- I don't think the highest caste is large at all. They'd be hidden masters among that elite group.
* I think everyone is linked to the "hive-mind", whatever its exact form in the Nation is.
- I'm not sure if the hive-mind is a full blown Borg entity thing, not yet at least.
- Yes, I think it extends to things like really high up members being able to control True Slaves like drones.
- Yes, I do think the really, really high up members do in fact control even the upper class citizens in this way.
* Now, as for my own speculation, I think Sansha has become the hive-mind. He may have a physical body, in fact he may have many scattered about, but he ultimately resides in their network. Indeed, Sansha is the Nation. This may or may not be apparent to all his followers, in various ways.
* Indeed, as Cosmo speculates, I don't think the True Slave idea has been fully realized. I think a True Slave is one who is truly connected to the network, truly augmented, truly uplifted. Yes, most of these are menial roles and slave-like positions, which seem abhorrent to us, but not to the fanatics of the Nation. Being a true slave is the ultimate achievement. It is becoming the Nation. It's also clear from the officer descriptions that there are True Slaves who are not confined to those slave-like positions.
Sansha set out to create a utopia. He had a vision. The Nation is that vision, the network which connects his followers. It is truly something different, it is beyond what those who dwell in the empires can even comprehend. Let them have their FaceBook and Twitter. They do not understand what it means to be a part of the Nation. That is the utopia he created, or at least sought to create (as Cosmo alludes). It is, however, broken or simply incomplete, but it is simmering, plotting, rebuilding, growing.
As for being zombie-like, as well as whether you are part of the first, second or third tier, I don't think it is always so clear cut. It's a sliding scale. To the highest embodiment of the Nation, even a second level citizen is zombie-like, because they can't see what they can, the millions of camera drones controlled by the Nation are his eyes, everyone's mind is his mind. At the highest level, individuality doesn't matter, because there is only the Nation and that is why it is really not immoral at all what the Nation does. The empires simply do not understand.
Indeed, I think it's entirely possible that the lowest tier of the Nation is actually the highest. The True Slaves are the masters, after a fashion (even though most of them lack the capacity for anything but obedience and the completion of their slave-like labour).
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Things I find interesting:
People constantly say that where the PF lacks, we should fill in.
However the instant it disagrees with their initial perceptions, it's wrong of the person to do so, even if what the person is doing in no way violates the PF.
So what is really being said, apparently, is "You should really fill in where the PF lacks so long as you agree with what I think to begin with."
Fascinating.
More directly on point:
- I don't think the highest caste is large at all. They'd be hidden masters among that elite group.
Given that I listed exactly 4 entities in the list of the oligarchy, I don't see where this disagrees with me.
- I don't think the citizen caste is large at all. It'd be a small, elite group.
I don't agree with that in the slightest. In fact the very concept of this flies in the face of any sort of logical underpinning to the way Nation is described in the PF. What would make you think that the citizenship of a political entity would be a small, elite group?
* I think everyone is linked to the "hive-mind", whatever its exact form in the Nation is.
- I'm not sure if the hive-mind is a full blown Borg entity thing, not yet at least.
- Yes, I think it extends to things like really high up members being able to control True Slaves like drones.
- Yes, I do think the really, really high up members do in fact control even the upper class citizens in this way.
Which you're welcome to believe, I suppose, but given that almost the entire Sansha RP community has an entirely different view of it, and has been pushing that view for a great deal of time, and nothing CCP has put forth has disagreed with that, I'm not sure what to say, I guess.
On the initial point, why is it that there's such a strong resistance to the way the entire Sansha RP community (which is small, granted) has presented Sansha? We haven't violated the PF. Our entire perspective has been drawn by extending the logical foundations of the PF in the vein that they are intended, and to be honest we haven't so much "created" anything as we have taken what was there and made it more all-encompassing. Why is it that someone can go ahead and create a polytheistic setup for the Gallente and everyone fawns over it, or can eject a bunch of toxins into space over a planet and everyone goes along with, or can start an Intaki seperatist movement and everyone immediately kowtows to it, (all things which have little-to-no PF backing), but a group of 6 or 8 people pour over what little information there is about Sansha's Nation, humanize it slightly, and expand on the logical steps that are built into it, and there's a massive community movement to resist their efforts?
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I hope I'm not included in this 'massive community movement' because I certainly am not conscious of being in it.
Nor do I recognise that anything I have said is suggesting people are 'wrong' to extrapolate from PF.
However, I do think that no-one has a greater right to extrapolate from PF than anyone else, no matter what RP community or sub-community they may belong to. Though if it comes to it, I was publicly RPing on themes Sansha and Sansha's Nation in early 2005 and had been RPing on same less visibly before then. So if it is really needed, I think I have some credentials in this discussion. Not that they are needed.
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of community involvement and all the rest of it, I think the discussion is on much better ground if it sticks to the PF and what can reasonably be extrapolated from it.
Fact is, there is considerable PF in the Burning Life novel that can't be ignored because it's not going to go away. Moreover, if you stick to the idea of a clear distinction between 'True Slaves' and 'citizens' then I think it is possible that it starts to risk, I'll go no stronger than that, violating PF based on what is in the novel.
I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry if that is a problem for some people. But it's not a problem of my making. I'm reading the PF and giving my own interpretation on the current state of the available PF.
That's all. I make no claim to absolute verity on the subject. But neither am I going to accept anyone else here has the graven word on it.
Read 'The Burning Life' is my strong advice for anyone who wants to get an insider's view of Sansha's Nation. There is a lengthy passage on it. I'm not saying any more because it would be a spoiler.
Cosmo
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Read 'The Burning Life' is my strong advice for anyone who wants to get an insider's view of Sansha's Nation. There is a lengthy passage on it. I'm not saying any more because it would be a spoiler.
QFE, and I believe it sheds considerable light on the current storyline.
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I find these discussions less than productive. Our interpretations of the Nation are irrelevant to capsuleers sympathetic to their cause because none of us can live in the culture. What's important is the ideology and motivation for pilots to support their cause.
And people shouldnt have to shell out cash for a book to get a general idea of a faction.
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And people shouldnt have to shell out cash for a book to get a general idea of a faction.
Yeah. It's like our 25 dollar mount for EVE amirite? :D
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In regards to the novel,
It is very biased from the perception of the protagonist. I generally don't understand it as being the omnipotent presence of an OOC narrator. Thusly, it is quite flavored for that angle.
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I was just voicing opinions/interpretations. They're just as good as any others, even if they don't have the backing of the "humanized Sansha RP community". I'll grant you that I am not in favor of humanizing them greatly (if at all) and that my interpretation of the PF doesn't suggest to me that it is necessary. But that's just my take.
It might be interesting if people would just flat out come out with whatever is in that novel. Give warnings for spoilers, but spill the beans and we can get on with the discussion more productively.
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As an aside, I am also amused by player reactions to the sansha faction trying to add some life and dimension to their culture when they react unfavorably towards player Borg stereotype. One would think such an approach would be welcome the opportunity rather than trying to shout it down with, "u don't has proof its reel!". It feels like more of a knee jerk response to the player than the idea, to be brutally honest.
Why? Because if Borg behavior was the norm amongst the subset I can guarantee there'd be negative connotation with uncreative sanshatard roleplay. The instinct to be contrary seems to be prevalent in forum culture.
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I'll grant you that I am not in favor of humanizing them greatly (if at all) and that my interpretation of the PF doesn't suggest to me that it is necessary.
Why not, exactly?
I can tell you why I am for humanizing them considerably: "Hahaha I R BAD AND EVIL *twistystache*" does not make for an interesting antagonist. All antagonists of any value or memorable nature have redeeming qualities that humanize them. If you can not empathize with an antagonist in any form of storytelling venue, then they do not resonate. It's exactly the same reason that people dehumanize an enemy during wartime irl.
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It might be interesting if people would just flat out come out with whatever is in that novel. Give warnings for spoilers, but spill the beans and we can get on with the discussion more productively.
I'll do that later tonight. I didn't intend to suggest that anyone should HAVE to spend the money, just that I didn't want to ruin the experience for those that intend to read it. :)
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As an aside, I am also amused by player reactions to the sansha faction trying to add some life and dimension to their culture when they react unfavorably towards player Borg stereotype. One would think such an approach would be welcome the opportunity rather than trying to shout it down with, "u don't has proof its reel!". It feels like more of a knee jerk response to the player than the idea, to be brutally honest.
Why? Because if Borg behavior was the norm amongst the subset I can guarantee there'd be negative connotation with uncreative sanshatard roleplay. The instinct to contrary seems to be prevalent in forum culture.
I'm mostly reacting to the "We're not borgs, and when you behave as if we are, then urdoingitrong." which is something that I perceive on various OOC channels.
I don't care what the Sansha are really like. I only care what the average person in the Republic thinks they're like. And as far as I can tell, most people (that is, non-capsuleers) seem to think that the Sansha are ebil borg-like monsters, and I think the recent raids on populated planets to grab "volunteers" makes it more likely that the average person thinks the Sansha are ebil borg-like monsters.
This also applies to Angel aligned RP, or Serpentis or what-have-you. I don't care if in reality those factions sit around on a Friday night doing knitting and sipping tea, and are really sensitive new-age capsuleers. If the public perception of that faction is that they are generally not nice people, then please don't tell me I'm wrong if I start from the position that capsuleers who self-identify with those factions are not-nice people.
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In character we don't care what you think of us.
Out of character, we're just the same as any other corp - that includes recruitment, corp events, and whatever else corps do in eve. We try to humanize Sansha a bit to give people an incentive to join our ranks so YOU guys have more 'evil villains' to shoot/RP at and WE have somewhat of a member-base to provide such 'evil' event shenanigans.
Watching movies with stereotypical white/black villains is so boring anyways. I always liked the movies where you go "Oh the Mr.Badman does have a point there...."
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In character we don't care what you think of us.
Out of character, we're just the same as any other corp - that includes recruitment, corp events, and whatever else corps do in eve. We try to humanize Sansha a bit to give people an incentive to join our ranks so YOU guys have more 'evil villains' to shoot/RP at and WE have somewhat of a member-base to provide such 'evil' event shenanigans.
I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that nobody thinks they themselves are evil. Or as Joss would say "Everyone thinks they're righteous".
The position I've detected in OOC channels is that some of the Sansha players feel hurt because non-sansha characters react as if Sansha are unalloyed evil - have I misinterpreted? Cos the IC reaction there seems completely reasonable to me, if only as a side effect of the government (whichever government) pointing at Sansha and saying "Look! Bogeymen!" Or is it that Sansha players don't want OOC comments about how Sansha are ebil?
Now OOC, I can see why you would be trying to make the case that Sansha are not unalloyed evil so that you get recruits for your RP that aren't psychos, but it does rather feel to me like you're claiming that the dark reputation is unjustified.
Watching movies with stereotypical white/black villains is so boring anyways. I always liked the movies where you go "Oh the Mr.Badman does have a point there...."
Yep, I agree. But I'm not sure what the Sansha redeeming features might be, nor do I think it likely that they will be revealed to me IC. Which rather makes them boring to me OOC.
I once had a productive IC discussion with Silver about it where he tried to make the case that Sansha using tech to control emotions was no worse than using chemicals (e.g. ritalin, prozac) to control emotions (which squicks me OOC, but that's a different discussion). He does seem to have carefully avoided some of the more extreme habits reported of the Sansha ("there were ... mistakes made"), and I'm not sure that Silver's bright shiney version of Sansha is compatible with the current events and PF. After reading the Burning Life, if anything it makes the Sansha look more creepy, not less.
And as a side comment, I don't have a shortage of people to shoot at, nor 'evil villans' to avoid RPing with. I actually have a shortage of people who aren't 'evil villains' to RP with :)
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players[/b] feel hurt because non-sansha characters react as if Sansha are unalloyed evil - have I misinterpreted?
I've seen instances where players of Sansha characters are told OOC that they're doingitwrong because their characters aren't unalloyed, Borg-evil. I suspect there's two slightly different conversations going on in this thread: one of Sansha players going 'Stop telling me my RP is wrong OOC because I'm not RPing a cylon' and one of non-Sansha players saying 'Stop telling me my RP is wrong OOC because my character believes your character is evil!'
In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a character thinking the Sansha are cyborg-zombies; there's nothing wrong with a character thinking that any appearance of not being a cyborg-zombie is a trick; there's a lot wrong with Sansha players being told they 'do Sansha' wrong by other players.
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I'll grant you that I am not in favor of humanizing them greatly (if at all) and that my interpretation of the PF doesn't suggest to me that it is necessary.
Why not, exactly?
I can tell you why I am for humanizing them considerably: "Hahaha I R BAD AND EVIL *twistystache*" does not make for an interesting antagonist. All antagonists of any value or memorable nature have redeeming qualities that humanize them. If you can not empathize with an antagonist in any form of storytelling venue, then they do not resonate. It's exactly the same reason that people dehumanize an enemy during wartime irl.
Just to be clear, I'm not here saying "ur doing it wrong" and I never have. For one thing, I think the True Sansha officer descriptions pretty strongly hint that these guys, while kinda borgy and out-there on one hand, are people with quirks, personalities and depth (well, as much as any of the very short officer descriptions can suggest depth).
That is to say, I find them playable, no toning down needed. Therefore, I'm just not 100% behind the humanizing efforts as necessary. I don't think the Sansha need to be like "regular folks" or "appear nicer", if that's even the point. That's because I think a rather strong "these guys have stepped over the edge" feeling is vital to preserving the Sansha flavor as I interpret it from the original Chronicle. That's not to say the Nation wouldn't have spies, infiltrators, sympathizers and all others sorts of folks who haven't really stepped over the line yet.
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I had a feeling we'd had this conversation before, heh, and I was right. Here's a link (http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=40762#p40762) to that other forum, where I probably first aired my thoughts regarding this. It still pretty much covers all the important points.
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The position I've detected in OOC channels is that some of the Sansha players feel hurt because non-sansha characters react as if Sansha are unalloyed evil - have I misinterpreted?
You're completely misinterpretting.
Ciarente nailed it in one:
I've seen instances where players of Sansha characters are told OOC that they're doingitwrong because their characters aren't unalloyed, Borg-evil. I suspect there's two slightly different conversations going on in this thread: one of Sansha players going 'Stop telling me my RP is wrong OOC because I'm not RPing a cylon' and one of non-Sansha players saying 'Stop telling me my RP is wrong OOC because my character believes your character is evil!'
QFE.
We're not telling you how to RP, we just want you to stop telling us how to RP. I think we've said thousands of times that you should hate us IC. We're the fucking bad guys. Not only are we the bad guys, we're the worst of the worst no matter how we try to doctor it up IC.
Just stop acting like we're bad guys OOC because we're bad guys IC, and stop telling us our RP is wrong because we're not playing robotic Borg-y people. That's all we're asking for.
Is it too much to ask?
Edit: These paragraphs above all yous are generic. I felt that should be clarified.
@ GoGo
Just to be clear, I'm not here saying "ur doing it wrong" and I never have.
I know, you're not really the type to do that.
I don't think the Sansha need to be like "regular folks" or "appear nicer", if that's even the point. That's because I think a rather strong "these guys have stepped over the edge" feeling is vital to preserving the Sansha flavor as I interpret it from the original Chronicle.
That's not really the point -- appearing nicer I mean. They've obviously stepped over the edge, but that doesn't mean that their regular citizenry aren't regular people. To make a real world corrolary (and I'm not attempting to invoke Godwin here), the Nazis were regular people, too, and they did some really fucking bad shit.
That's kinda the vein we're trying to go with. Humanize them, because they're not monsters. They're people that do monstrous things, and that in my opinion is what makes it really strike home and expands them into a better realm both of RP for the Sansha side and RP for the non-Sansha side.
IMO, them just being monsters doesn't really make for a scary villain. Them being regular everyday people that not only willingly, but happily do monstrous things. . . It's an entirely different level.
Don't you think?
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I am also not telling anyone they are 'doing it wrong'. I have to say I'm hard pressed to find anyone on this thread telling anyone that.
So, actually, unless it is a very generalized sentiment it is actually a bit much to look like you're asking people who aren't doing something to stop doing that thing. Sensitivity goes both ways.
Now, the thing is, I'm very sympathetic to pro-Sansha RPers.
After all, my Sansha-related RP of yesteryear wasn't even full-on pro-Sansha's Nation, rather it was a sympathetic take on what my character perceived as some of the original noble intentions of Sansha Kuvakei and an appreciation of the transhumanist element of his thinking. And even that got me some rum old 'feedback' and remarks about how any sympathy for Sansha at all, in any way, meant I was for enslaving everyone into mindless zombie automata. Over 5 years ago.
So, I get the sensitivity here. (Though I think much of it needs to be simply shrugged off and not taken too personally.)
Kaleigh says that you shouldn't have to buy a book to get a general idea of a faction.
Damn right.
In my opinion you only need one thing to get the general idea of Sansha's Nation faction: the Sansha's Nation chronicle.
Let's take a moment to note that it is, actually, one of the more impressive background-setting chronicles. Everything you need to know to understand the basics is there.
I understood from my first reading of that chronicle that Sansha's Nation was not before the fall and likely was not after the fall entirely made up the 'stereotype' mindless automata True Slaves.
So on the general idea of the faction, I'm on the same page with the Sansha's Nation RP community. Come to that, so is GoGo and pretty much everyone else on this thread.
But let's be honest about this OOC discussion and speculation on the lore and what the gaps in it may be filled with (which is all it is), it's more than a 'general idea' of the faction that is being put forward in various interpretations by people. It's getting fairly specific about the structure of an entire faction.
See, that's why Lillith's examples up above about why people don't react the same or differ to or discuss with passion to the same extent issues like Intaki separatists (a really bad example btw because there is PF about them) or minor Gallente religions or whatever are not well drawn in relation to a discussion of the social structure of an entire faction.
The real comparison is with discussions of Caldari society or Khanid society or Thukker society or you get the idea... and I can point you to some very passionate, rather robust and sometimes acrimonious discussions on that sort of thing. This is not unique to the Sansha's Nation faction. That's a myth.
But Kaleigh's right again. A discussion of the social structure of an entire faction is fine and dandy, if you like that sort of thing, but it's not necessarily relevant or important to how people RP. Moreover, RPing as if your ideas on the social structure are correct is fine and dandy. You can be called on it IC and that's fine. It's utterly pointless for people to call you on it OOC unless what you are doing is swivel-eyed PF violation. Which it isn't.
As for the subject of humanizing the members of Sansha's Nation. Heh. I got no problem with it. I've taken the same broad view for a long time. I was there when Sansha's Nation actors were talking to one another in public in binary (why?) and groaning inside. But it's all good sport and can be shrugged off.
Further, if you want humanized Nation (KD is going to fume at this...) the novel delivers it in a crashing broadside.
I'll quote one short passage in the spoiler tags below and comment on it, it gives the flavour, it's short enough to be fair use but there is a lot more and I can't be quoting it wholesale (in my opinion, simply giving an interpretation or summation is not good enough) for obvious reasons. I have tried to be honest in the selection to give a balanced representation. In the end, though, it is not a substitute for the full passage.
[spoiler]
[a Nation insider speaking of 'True Slaves']
"It's a spectrum is, what I mean. There are so many different types, with the military one being the last and only thing you outsiders ever see, but it's just one of many.
[...]
"The True Slaves stalk the world like giants, but there are those who are only half-slaves, with a much greater degree of autonomy, or who've only had a particular section of their mind taken over.
[...]
"It's not the most common setup, but sure, some of them can explore their creative talents as much as they like while their analytical mind belongs to Nation, so they can paint and draw but they can't solve even the simplest maths problem unless their implants allow it. Others have had certain emotions suppressed."
That gives the idea. There is more. The speaker is a little ambiguous on some points elsewhere and while using the terminology 'True Slaves' for ease appears not to think that it has much meaning in reality. It should be noted that the speaker is an entirely autonomous ex-Nation member who was autonomous when in Nation but appears to consider himself to have been a 'True Slave' from the way he speaks. Some, he also says, are barely implanted at all, some don't even have a tracking device.
The clear indication of this evidence is that it's a spectrum, a continuum, running from loyal to the ideology of Nation with zero implants to well... some pretty bizarre stuff, as seen elsewhere in the novel. If an entirely autonomous but loyal individual, with no implants, considers himself to be part of Nation, and in that sense what the outside world would think of as a 'True Slave', then to me it suggests the distinction between a 'True Slave' and a 'citizen' is... of limited utility at best.
[/spoiler]
As to the weight of this PF. As indicated earlier, the novel is more or less written in subjective, limited third-person narrative (to be technical about it). But that doesn't mean it can be set aside. It's still PF and it's still evidence of the nature of Nation society. What is certainly true is that people should accord it the weight it deserves given the format.
I would have to say that to my mind, while on the specifics and details it suggests a society that may not be exactly in accord with the present vision of the Sansha RP community, it does, in fact, answer the general desire of that RP community to have a more nuanced and human viewpoint on Sansha's Nation.
Cosmo
PS. On precise topic with the subject title: my first silent reaction to myself on the Aria Jenneth proposal was indeed 'Isn't this a way to demonstrate your IC position on Sansha's Nation without a countervailing way for the Sansha's RPers to demonstrate their IC position on Nation?' So, you know, I'm not blind to the frustrations. I think perhaps a constructive dialogue is always possible on these issues though.
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I agree, Cosmo, nation supporters are a bit at the mercy of sansha's grand plan, and perhaps are too unclear as to their in their own goals to the public. You take that risk anytime you become a loyalist, at the mercy of a faction and ccp's vision. Im certainly trying to give ngn its own goals while still being sympathetic to the nation's cause.
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I guess the fact that I don't really involve myself in debating this OOC doesn't really motivate me to post much. Other than, from an OOC perspective, Nation is as black as you can get. From the TBL, I think you'd have to be pretty twisted to think that you can leverage some redeeming factors out of it lol. But it appears people are perfectly fine with that. Why can't people RP the bad guys? IC, though, different story, people can be deluded and genuinely believe it is right whatever etc.etc. Same way with Nazi Germany...at the time, its subjects thought it was good, but overall, was evil (eh, fucking Godwinned =/)
There needs to be more "True Citizen" PF similar to the Sansha dude in TBL though.
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Why can't people RP the bad guys?
...you can't seriously have just said that. *facepalm*
Seri. What has been drilled over and over, is when the 'bad guy' looks himself into the mirror, does he think he is truly evil? Every single culture, person, fictional race, and entity... they are going to think 'no'. If they do, they are one-dimensional. Devoid of all substance. Nothing more than an immature cartoon villain where the setting is black or white. EVE is not that setting. Everything, and I mean everything are in shades of grey. And subjective to perspective.
What we see from both IC and perhaps even OOC perspective may be a culture shock, or taboo to one person, but to another's is completely justified or desensitized. Wheter its a notion, idea, object, or otherwise. How do you feel about another person's religion? Abortion? Homosexuality? Gun use? (and please for the love of everything, let's not let it derail there). All these provoke strong reactions. Many people will up and denounce these thoughts without giving it a second thought, deeming these as 'evil'. However, the fact that there is a group that believes in or adheres to these thoughts (wheter by choice, or simply by who they are) has seen merit or 'good' from these. If it was truly 'black' and without any redeemable quality whatsoever, nobody would willing follow under those flags.
I think between Lillith's theories and Cosmo's except from the book, and I think this has been suggested before a few times: that the True Slaves are simply a tool. The ones fully without any emotion, and used as soldiers, the ones we all mostly see IC. Anything else, would likely fall under the catagory of 'citizen', but as Cosmo said, its on a slider as to how implanted an individual has and the level of autonomy they have in doing the things they enjoy. More 'direct' than a Caldari's method, but less harsh than Amarrian methods in obediance and keeping security and interests of their empire. Perfectly acceptible by how they see it, but a culture shock to the rest of the cluster.
Thank you Cosmo for that post, BTW. I would have responded to it when I initially read it, but was being pulled into different directions at the time. :P
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Even the "good guys" do pretty evil shit sometimes, but they still see themselves as good guys.
Like say....Templars burning down entire populated cities to kill one demon. :o
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I'm not sure what you mean Arvo. I said that Nation is the closest thing to absolute bad guys in EVE, and so people should be able to RP that if they want to be absolute bad guys.
@Izzy, yes, I don't pretend the empire factions are white or "good", pretty grey. I much prefer RPing the Federalist as "protecting freedom by any means necessary" as opposed to "omg my sensibilities are offended IC/OOC because Fed is being portrayed as bad.
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A couple of points:
@Cosmo: Yes, generalized. Just because it hasn't happened in this thread (and I would argue the possibility that it has happened in the thread the this thread was directing to on IGS) doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It also doesn't mean it hasn't happened a great deal. There's a level of frustration that comes with the OOC crap. . .
@ Arvo&Cosmo:
I think between Lillith's theories and Cosmo's except from the book, and I think this has been suggested before a few times: that the True Slaves are simply a tool. The ones fully without any emotion, and used as soldiers, the ones we all mostly see IC. Anything else, would likely fall under the catagory of 'citizen', but as Cosmo said, its on a slider as to how implanted an individual has and the level of autonomy they have in doing the things they enjoy.
The thing about the slider on implanting, from a capsuleer's perspective, you can't logically judge (note that doesn't mean you can't judge things as such, just that it's not logical) that simply because an individual is cybernetically enhanced it necessarily means they have lost autonomy. I mean every single capsuleer has mental augmentations of varying degrees. The fact that there is more cybertechnology planetside in Nation than elsewhere doesn't dictate that everyone will immediately assume they are all linked into a hivemind because of it, nor that such a situation exists.
I mean, unless the Egonics (or whatever the hell it is) means that a huge chunk of the Federation are hooked into a hivemind.
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Good post, Cosmo. And Lilith, I think we agree a helluva lot more than we disagree, even if we do disagree on some points, and I'll leave it at that.
Very interesting reading that snippet from the TBL. You'll note how I was speaking of a potential spectrum of Sansha representation in one my earlier (rather ramblish) posts, so that's somewhat like what I was thinking/expecting. One thing I'm happy to note, however, was what that suggests for the oh-so-oft'-mentioned hive mind.
Thing is, I was suspecting there might be something like a hive-mind in place. We just really didn't have any information about it! I was also very much hoping that if they decide to go for it, they make it unique, and just a simple shared collective borg consciousness. Now it seems that there is an overarching network of sorts, but it's not quite that (whether its ultimately point of advancement is meant to be that more typical type of hive mind still remains a possibility). The network seems more like a really advanced version of distributed computing, though.
On the topic of humanizing the Nation, I just hope that effort doesn't mean that RPers will shy away too much from utilizing these concepts of diminished emotions, or recognizing that a part of their enhanced brain power may be used for computing, or accepting that they may be implanted with a tracking device, or programmed with keywords that act like suggestions, etc..
Yeah, I'm all for showing that not everyone is a zombie (because I never believed that in the first place!), but not at the expense of all that stuff that makes the Nation. Maybe I'm just concerned that the humanizing effort is actually a stealthy ploy to ignore all those things which are very Sansha-like, but which also represent pretty large potential drawbacks/weaknesses for a character (when assuming an individualistic viewpoint anyway, I don't think a true fanatic would mind much if their brain power gets utilized by the greater Nation).
At least there is a source for more information out there now. Too bad I'm still not going to buy the novel.
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There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.
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There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.
Nationwiki? Sanshapedia? Kuvasaurus? :D
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There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.
Nationwiki? Sanshapedia? Kuvasaurus? :D
I think Izzy has established it as SanshaRwrr already.
And yes, totally, Izzy.
I'm hoping there would appear some PF that would help people define (and name) it better so that we could bury the term "hive mind" because it causes too much weirdness. Please help us, the Burning Life, you are our only hope!
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...or a Dropbear to swoop by like a savior (or mischevious demon that he is), to shed some light on this. Even if the message only presents more questions than answers.
If only. :P
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I would go with "Sanshapedia".
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BTW... separation between True Slave and Citizen is in fact, PF. They're also humanized in this pocket of info, too.
Description of Esoteria:
When Sansha's Nation was at the height of its power, Esoteria was one of its richest territories. Scholars, philosophers, scientists, and many of its most affluent True Citizens made it their home. The occupants relied on the remoteness of the region to keep them safe, anticipating that the legions of True Slaves in Stain would remain an impenetrable shield that none could pass.
When the Alliance of Empires swept down upon the Nation, the shield was shattered and their forces crushed under the alliance’s unassailable might. Then, like barbarians of old, the forces of the Amarr Empire crashed into Esoteria, pillaging and slaughtering all before them.
Now, all that remains of the Nation’s once-pervasive presence in the area is floating husks; great ruins that stand as both a eulogy to Sansha's former dream and a stark warning to any who might provoke the ire of all four Empire. The Nation continues to send their own ships into the area, scouring it for any bit of lost technology that might give them an edge in their attempt to resurrect Sansha's dream.
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And also the senseless slaughter of fleeing citizens.
I knew I read it somewhere and didn't just pull it out of my ass, thanks Arvo.
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I would point out that the idea there was a clear distinction between True Slaves and individual citizens of Sansha's Nation before its fall has never been at issue (it is, after all, in the chronicle) and that is all that piece of PF indicates, while providing the terminology 'True Citizen'.
Open to Sansha's RPers to pursue the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it, as their own ideology but I have my doubts that Sansha's Nation is like that anymore.
The fact of the fall, and its catastrophic nature for Sansha's Nation, adds a significant unreliability to any inference as to what Sansha's Nation today is like from what Sansha's Nation before the fall was like.
It is something akin to what it would be to envisage the nature of the Minmatar Republic (if we had virtually no information as to its structure and culture) from the snippets we have on the pre-Amarr conquest Minmatar Empire.
Incidentally, note that the Amarr Empire is specifically named as the perpetrator of the slaughter. This adds some weight to my feeling that the extreme enmity Sansha's Nation has for the Empire is rooted in the way the Amarr behaved towards them (my thesis was that it was due to a feeling of being stabbed in the back, but if the Amarr pursued an extermination policy of this kind it explains it even more so).
Cosmo
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Ruby is Esoterian. She's had the whole "out-of-the-Vault" experience. :)
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What, the Overseer kicked her out?
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What, the Overseer kicked her out?
All birds gotta learn to fly sometime, amirite?
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I would point out that the idea there was a clear distinction between True Slaves and individual citizens of Sansha's Nation before its fall has never been at issue (it is, after all, in the chronicle) and that is all that piece of PF indicates, while providing the terminology 'True Citizen'.
Open to Sansha's RPers to pursue the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it, as their own ideology but I have my doubts that Sansha's Nation is like that anymore.
The fact of the fall, and its catastrophic nature for Sansha's Nation, adds a significant unreliability to any inference as to what Sansha's Nation today is like from what Sansha's Nation before the fall was like ...
Cosmo
I think Cosmo has touched on something very relevant to Sansha RP.
In my view there are two distinct versions of Sansha’s Nation. There is Sansha’s Nation before its fall, the “pre-fall ideal” as Cosmo put it, and then there is Sansha’s Nation as it exists today in the Stain Region.
Is Sansha’s Nation currently in Stain anything like how it was before the Nations fall? Before the fall we had a clear distinction between True Slaves and True Citizens. With the Nations fall many of the True Citizens were killed, or fled. I believe that there may be hardly any, if any at all, True Citizens similar to those that existed before the Nations fall.
Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain appears to be nothing like the pre-fall ideal. It does appear borg-like, it does appear to lack depth. It doesn’t appear to be anything like the pre-fall ideal. I’m not saying that this is true, but this is the impression that a casual observer would have.
This is the reason why in my RP I took the view that my character would not be a supporter of Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain, but a supporter of the “pre-fall ideal”.
From OOC discussions, such as these, and my IC interactions it appears that most, if not all, Sansha RP’ers tend to focus their RP on “the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it”. It’s not clear, however, if they believe that the current Sansha’s Nation that exists in Stain embodies this pre-fall ideal or not.
Once the live events started I was a put a bit on the back foot. My initial reaction was to put out a public statement distancing myself and my corporation from the current direction the Nation was taking and declaring my support to Sansha’s vision and not to Sansha’s Nation as currently exists in Stain. I decided to delay that, however, until events unfolded enough to actually see which way this would go.
I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.
Unfortunatly this is a line that is used most often by the Sansha actors and it is enforcing my IC view that the current actions by the Nation are not intended to advance or promote “the pre-fall ideal, as I understand it”, but are actions by either a madman, or a made up entity, to advance the current twisted Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain.
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I always thought of the whole Unity yadda yadda as "Nation doesn't have any inner-drama fights with itself because we all get along."
The whole "individualism is fail" is kinda silly though.
^_^
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I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.
Well, I disagree with this. My reading of the PF strongly suggests that Sansha was a visionary who had revolutionary ideas which really go against individualism. It is one logical way of justifying the True Slaves and all that jazz, while retaining a sort of moral high ground. It doesn't however have to go to borg-like lengths.
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Perhaps a new topic/split off for discussing Nation's unity? I think we're getting pretty far from this threads original point.
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Perhaps a new topic/split off for discussing Nation's unity? I think we're getting pretty far from this threads original point.
[mod]Thread split. Please continue the discussion about Unity here, and the discussion about Aria's proposed "capture mechanic" in the original thread (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=627.0).[/mod]
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I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.
Well, I disagree with this. My reading of the PF strongly suggests that Sansha was a visionary who had revolutionary ideas which really go against individualism. It is one logical way of justifying the True Slaves and all that jazz, while retaining a sort of moral high ground. It doesn't however have to go to borg-like lengths.
For the "Post Fall Nation" I agree with you 100%.
My view of the "Pre Fall Nation" is a bit different. The PF States: “Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles. He also experimented with ship crews and captains, as he regarded space ships to be both boring and dangerous, and thus ideally suited for his creatures.”
Pre Fall Nation made true slaves, but the focus was on the citizens of the nation. I don’t think among the citizens there would be any loss of individuality as it would inhibit the creation of his utopia where humans were free to pursue peaceful productive lifestyles. His utopia wasn’t a mass of mindless hive-mind zombies, these were the tools.
Post Fall Nation does seem to focus on implanting everyone. The focus seems to have shifted from the citizens to the True Slaves. It does seem like there is a distinct difference between the Pre Fall Nation and the Post Fall Nation.
My RP focuses on advancing the Pre Fall Nation ideals, as I interpret it. I think I should add that this does involve my full support of any type of true slave programme.
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Dropbear had a few comments on this discussion, which he had to post on Eve-o for :CCP: reasons: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1337196
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Hasn't Ginger posted on Chatsubo before? What makes this different?
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Ginger had to stop posting on chatsubo not that long ago. I'm not sure if it was a problem with him posting on chatsubo (There were some issues right around that time IIRC), or just a change in CCP policy unrelated to any specific incident, but apparently it is company-wide and applies to all sites, now. :(
Anyway, back to the topic at hand?
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Also remember the Paragon Soul description:
Dearest Heloise: I apologize for the tardiness of this message. It seems our host has relocated his research efforts further abroad, making this slave delivery a much longer endeavor. When I asked why, our host assured me that our upcoming tour of the facility would explain everything. I remain skeptical. Regardless, I promise to return to you soon.
Heloise: The facilities here are astounding! Our host has assembled a team of the finest minds to bring his dream to life. They have made major strides-- the implications of their cranial implant technology alone are dazzling.
Heloise: Our host introduced what became of the slaves I delivered. The brutes were silent and inert. I tell you it was as if their very souls had been stripped from them. I will voice my concerns with our host tomorrow.
Heloise: Our host announced the birth of his ‘Nation’. I sent a communique to the Ministry of Internal Order.
Heloise: I discovered my messages are being blocked. Our host never had any intention of sending them. His automatons are everywhere now. Their number grows every day. They are watching me.
My Darling Wife: How I miss you. The slaves have been set against everyone not of the Nation. I survived only by grace. The things are slow, but efficient. I hear their footsteps pass the room, regular, constant. It is only a matter of time. I pray God forgive us our terrible transgressions. I love you, Heloise. I am sorry that I must break my promise.
Reading between the lines: The writer is an Amarr researcher, who informed the Empire about the True Slaves. While clearly displaying Sansha as quite cruel - intentionally keeping the researcher as a prisoner in a golden cage - there is also the possibility that the hostility towards outsiders was due to the attack of the empires. Also, "the slaves are set against everyone not of the Nation" would seem to indeed hint that there are people who are neither slaves or outsiders. Of course, they've had decades to go on with their experiments, so it might indeed be that even the non-slaves have "augmented consciousness implants". It may be that they aren't strictly speaking "controlled", like the True Slaves have parts of their brains simply unavailable to be used by their free will, with the rest restricted by forced behavioral patterns - but simply being part of some degree of shared consciousness (very likely by no means a complete one) might effect one's decisions. Depends also on how long this has been going on. If for decades, then as a "House of Horrors" appraoch at least the least strong-willed might be quite insane. The "noble nation" utopia sense would of course be that the True Citizens are simply an extension of the Nation itself.
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Though I might expand on my reasoning behind my previous post regarding my views of Sansha's focus on citizens versus focus n True Slaves.
I must admit that my views of the Pre-Fall Nation are a little biased as my reading of the prime fiction is tainted with my research into modern day Utopian theory. So when I read the PF, I reconcile what the PF states with my research and understanding of Utopian thought. I must admit I am far from being any sought of expert on the subject though.
While I am a bit hesitant to post links to RL philosophical study papers on the subject of "Utopian Society", one common principle in most theories is balancing "the good of the individual" versus "the good of the society", how much freedom must one individual give up in order to benefit the society as a whole. So reading the fiction with this in mind I have to reconcile the two.
This principle works on a sliding scale from total freedom (which doest even exist in modern society) to total control of each individuals freedom of movement or even freedom of thoughts. This scale exists in every society, modern or otherwise.
My thinking is that somewhere before the fall of the Nation the scale in the Pre-Fall Nation started tipping, and my currently be sitting somewhere where the Nation wants to have total control over all movements and perhaps even thoughts of its Citizens.
Which brings me to my point about Pre and Post Fall Nation. I believe that Pre-Fall Nation did Have free thinkers and philosophers with True Slaves as a tool. I believe, however, that this Post Fall Nation might have slipped so far that there may be no room for free thought at all? There may not be room for "Citizens" that existed before the fall of the Nation?
I may be wrong, but there is nothing that has happened recently in these past events to change my mind about how I perceive the Post-Fall Nation. Is the Nation as it Exists in Stain a place where free thinkers can live and flourish and still be part of the "Nation"?
Also interesting is the post by CCP Dropbear where he states:
The subtlety of the point in storyline terms comes in appreciating that the capsule itself is actually older than Sansha. The basic technology existed long before his Nation did. At the inception of Sansha's Nation over a century ago, however, capsuleers like you did not exist. This is a recent, and drastic, turn of events. What this means for Sansha's Nation is a topic equally worthy of discussion, and one that I hope is pursued further.
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A point, once more, made clear in the original chronicle which, let's remember, tells us of the critical importance of capsule technology to Sansha's True Slave program.
My inclination is that Dropbear's point is not so much technological as social and political. The free licensing of independent capsuleers from mid-YC105 onwards is a massive shift (in itself deserving of examination as to quite why it happened, though I have my own view on it) that has affected every faction in New Eden.
The interesting question here is how such a shift would affect a faction that is already intimately bound up with wide-scale utilisation of capsule technology, albeit in ways that differ radically from the norm.
Cosmo
PS. On Dev communications: I was informed directly that the CCP-wide policy is that Devs have to communicate through the CCP forums only so as to ensure that all players have equal access to what they have to say. I got the impression is was simply a decision they made as part of a general review rather than anything precipitated by a crisis or incident.
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[spoiler]
[a Nation insider speaking of 'True Slaves']
"It's a spectrum is, what I mean. There are so many different types, with the military one being the last and only thing you outsiders ever see, but it's just one of many.
[...]
"The True Slaves stalk the world like giants, but there are those who are only half-slaves, with a much greater degree of autonomy, or who've only had a particular section of their mind taken over.
[...]
"It's not the most common setup, but sure, some of them can explore their creative talents as much as they like while their analytical mind belongs to Nation, so they can paint and draw but they can't solve even the simplest maths problem unless their implants allow it. Others have had certain emotions suppressed."
That gives the idea. There is more. The speaker is a little ambiguous on some points elsewhere and while using the terminology 'True Slaves' for ease appears not to think that it has much meaning in reality. It should be noted that the speaker is an entirely autonomous ex-Nation member who was autonomous when in Nation but appears to consider himself to have been a 'True Slave' from the way he speaks. Some, he also says, are barely implanted at all, some don't even have a tracking device.
The clear indication of this evidence is that it's a spectrum, a continuum, running from loyal to the ideology of Nation with zero implants to well... some pretty bizarre stuff, as seen elsewhere in the novel. If an entirely autonomous but loyal individual, with no implants, considers himself to be part of Nation, and in that sense what the outside world would think of as a 'True Slave', then to me it suggests the distinction between a 'True Slave' and a 'citizen' is... of limited utility at best.
[/spoiler]
As to the weight of this PF. As indicated earlier, the novel is more or less written in subjective, limited third-person narrative (to be technical about it). But that doesn't mean it can be set aside. It's still PF and it's still evidence of the nature of Nation society. What is certainly true is that people should accord it the weight it deserves given the format.
I would have to say that to my mind, while on the specifics and details it suggests a society that may not be exactly in accord with the present vision of the Sansha RP community, it does, in fact, answer the general desire of that RP community to have a more nuanced and human viewpoint on Sansha's Nation.
This.
Lovely find, Cosmo.
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My apologies if I seem to be "shoving this in", as it were...
My views on Nation's unity and the entire concept of Sansha's Nation takes something of an extremely optimistic point of view. That being said, I hope I can convey this best I can.
The impression given to me by the original Sansha's Nation chronicle was one of an honest man's attempts at a better future going horribly wrong. The chronicle itself remarks that Sansha began believing in his own hype and this is what turned it from "Another Amarr Empire" into "Sansha's Nation" for me. Sansha innovates and endeavors to a utopian future for mankind because he honestly believes in it. If it was not for this, Sansha's Nation would be an off-shoot of the Amarr Empire - who in some capacity, already used some cybernetics on their slaves. (I may be incorrectly remembering that)
In this light as I perceive the Nation, Sansha's innovations and technological achievements make a twisted kind of sense. In the Pre-Fall Nation, Sansha could have very well intended the True Slaves to be what they're commonly perceived to be - soldiers and guards. However, the Fall and the mass desertion of many Nation citizens very likely slapped him around and forced him to think of a new means to the end.
Thus, in the post-Fall Nation (and arguably the Empyrean Age Nation) I perceive technology as being even more important than it was before. More so, I believe that Nation's utopian means to the end is solely comprised of the True Slaves and the True Citizens. Cybernetic augmentation and networking is Sansha's new means to the utopian end. Technological evolution, I would say.
With this understanding, Nation's unity is put into a clear perspective for myself. It is the ultimate product of intelligence networking - the result of countless numbers of people being connected through technology and information. There is the understandable argument that it is similar to the Borg Collective's Hive Mind. I am inclined to agree there are similarities, as much as I despise the comparison. The real difference, however, is in the fine print.
True Slaves and True Citizens do not have their personalities completely wiped. Indeed, there is a degree of alteration but the significant details of the individual are kept intact. The evidence for this is in the various Slave Commanders' behavior, old Nation ship logs and some flavor text that shows up in Deadspace. Maybe these few incidents are coloring my perspective, I've not seem much to the contrary yet.
Nation people, True Slaves and True Citizens, build community. They communicate, associate, intermingle with one another. Social barriers are broken down and destroyed by technology, allowing people to freely interact with one another with almost no social inhibition. New people are not shoved into the pre-existing unity, they are eased into it - introduced, welcomed, placed. In this way, there is a substantial difference to the violent and emotionless Borg Hive Mind and the welcoming presence of Nation's unity.
My personal belief (or argument, which ever you prefer) may understandably appear as if I'm painting Nation as the "good guy" in EVE. Rather, it is my attempt at turning Nation from the evil cybernetic twin of the Amarr Empire into something more appreciable as a story entity - the ambitions of a well intentioned extremist and the social incompatibility between people.
Nation is very isolationist and private - its behavior towards keeping quiet and out of the way except when it wants to make itself known is indicative of this. Combine that with Nation's "transhuman" evolutionary path of cybernetic augmentation and networking - you get a very socially awkward picture. True Slaves and True Citizens don't intermingle or communicate easily with the outside world. They are part of a group of people so fundamentally different from normal humans they appear as monsters. In this way, it is understandable why the vast majority of the universe perceives the Nation as a hulking, all consuming enslavement machine.
The other social fact to consider is of course, Nation is still at war.
A very funny and somewhat subtle point in EVE's history I've noticed is that the war started by the four empires a century ago never ended for Sansha's Nation. There was no official truce signed between all the parties declaring the war over. In reality, the war is still going on. It's very likely the Nation would end all hostilities against the Empires and solely keep to its old sovereign space if the official truce was signed. Who knows what this end to the war might mean? We might see more True Citizens and the civilian population of Nation being public instead of shielded by the True Slaves. Nation slave raids into their war opponents territory might stop. A lot of possibilities, I think.
tl;dr Sansha Kuvakei is a Well Intentioned Extremist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist). Nation's unity is a massive networking between people that brings everyone closer without completely wiping out all individuality (The Geth (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth) and Therians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-43#The_Therians) say hello). People can't understand what Nation is and think of them as evil robo-slavers. Nation people keep to themselves in order to survive. War is still going on from a century ago because the Empires are indecisive buggers who couldn't sign a peace treaty worth a damn.
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You were telling me about your ideas on this last night. And I have to say... I love that angle and hope that sort of shade of gray is what's really going on.
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You were telling me about your ideas on this last night. And I have to say... I love that angle and hope that sort of shade of gray is what's really going on.
Pretty sure it is, actually. It's what I meant about "motive."
*forces self offline, or tries*
God, I need to stop checking in here.
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Anybody who uses TV Tropes as a source is A-OK in my book.
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tl;dr Sansha Kuvakei is a Well Intentioned Extremist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist). Nation's unity is a massive networking between people that brings everyone closer without completely wiping out all individuality (The Geth (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth) and Therians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-43#The_Therians) say hello). People can't understand what Nation is and think of them as evil robo-slavers. Nation people keep to themselves in order to survive. War is still going on from a century ago because the Empires are indecisive buggers who couldn't sign a peace treaty worth a damn.
This post pretty much nails down what I've been trying to say about the Nation. Couldn't really agree more with you in my reading.
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On the subject of which implications the rise of capsuleer society has for Sansha's Nation, I believe that advanced infomorph technology opens up a ton of intriguing new possibilities, and I see this as being the case with jump clone technology in particular.
The ability to swap bodies - and implants! - without frying the brain of the original body opens up the option of giving citizens on-duty and off-duty bodies with varying degrees of implantation, augmentation and free will. Even such things as bodies tailored for one specific project would be possible, and possibly also part-time True Slaves. Sensitive technological and political secrets would remain safe in the brains of the on-duty bodies of scientists, engineers and executives, inaccessible to those same people's "leisure-clone" brains.
This would allow a system where Citizens submit to rigorous control of their thoughts and actions in their professional life, while allowing them considerable and quite possibly even complete freedom of thought and actions in their private lives. In other words, the possibility would exist for a state which would be totalitarian on the professional level and liberal on the private level.
If I were Sansha Kuvakei, I would be salivating over such an opportunity.
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On the subject of which implications the rise of capsuleer society has for Sansha's Nation, I believe that advanced infomorph technology opens up a ton of intriguing new possibilities, and I see this as being the case with jump clone technology in particular.
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If I were Sansha Kuvakei, I would be salivating over such an opportunity.
You might be onto something. It was once said that Intaki methods/beliefs/systems had something to do with realizing the potential of the infomorph tech. Why is this important? One name: Vika Kuvakei. She's the wife of Vremaja Idama and a rather suspicious character, not least because of her name.
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I'm pretty sure it was established somewhere (can't remember exactly where off the top of my head) that Vika Kuvakei wasn't related to Sansha by blood at all - they just shared a surname, which was supposedly fairly common in the State?
I'll have to look around a bit.
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I can't remember the location of the reference, but I recall the same conclusion re: Kuvakei as MorLag.
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I remember the same, but also recall that it was a fan based assumption made by those unwilling to accept what seemed to be a very obvious smoking gun. Could be wrong though, so if anyone can dig up the reference, I might change my mind. She was interested in and developing technology which totally fit the Sansha connection - plus she seemed quite the villain. Seems highly suspect to me.
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I seem to think it was a dev post on the EVE forum... I think.