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[Lillith Blackheart]

A couple of points:

@Cosmo: Yes, generalized. Just because it hasn't happened in this thread (and I would argue the possibility that it has happened in the thread the this thread was directing to on IGS) doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It also doesn't mean it hasn't happened a great deal. There's a level of frustration that comes with the OOC crap. . .

@ Arvo&Cosmo:

I think between Lillith's theories and Cosmo's except from the book, and I think this has been suggested before a few times: that the True Slaves are simply a tool. The ones fully without any emotion, and used as soldiers, the ones we all mostly see IC. Anything else, would likely fall under the catagory of 'citizen', but as Cosmo said, its on a slider as to how implanted an individual has and the level of autonomy they have in doing the things they enjoy.

The thing about the slider on implanting, from a capsuleer's perspective, you can't logically judge (note that doesn't mean you can't judge things as such, just that it's not logical) that simply because an individual is cybernetically enhanced it necessarily means they have lost autonomy. I mean every single capsuleer has mental augmentations of varying degrees. The fact that there is more cybertechnology planetside in Nation than elsewhere doesn't dictate that everyone will immediately assume they are all linked into a hivemind because of it, nor that such a situation exists.

I mean, unless the Egonics (or whatever the hell it is) means that a huge chunk of the Federation are hooked into a hivemind.

[GoGo Yubari]

Good post, Cosmo. And Lilith, I think we agree a helluva lot more than we disagree, even if we do disagree on some points, and I'll leave it at that.

Very interesting reading that snippet from the TBL. You'll note how I was speaking of a potential spectrum of Sansha representation in one my earlier (rather ramblish) posts, so that's somewhat like what I was thinking/expecting. One thing I'm happy to note, however, was what that suggests for the oh-so-oft'-mentioned hive mind.

Thing is, I was suspecting there might be something like a hive-mind in place. We just really didn't have any information about it! I was also very much hoping that if they decide to go for it, they make it unique, and just a simple shared collective borg consciousness. Now it seems that there is an overarching network of sorts, but it's not quite that (whether its ultimately point of advancement is meant to be that more typical type of hive mind still remains a possibility). The network seems more like a really advanced version of distributed computing, though.

On the topic of humanizing the Nation, I just hope that effort doesn't mean that RPers will shy away too much from utilizing these concepts of diminished emotions, or recognizing that a part of their enhanced brain power may be used for computing, or accepting that they may be implanted with a tracking device, or programmed with keywords that act like suggestions, etc..

Yeah, I'm all for showing that not everyone is a zombie (because I never believed that in the first place!), but not at the expense of all that stuff that makes the Nation. Maybe I'm just concerned that the humanizing effort is actually a stealthy ploy to ignore all those things which are very Sansha-like, but which also represent pretty large potential drawbacks/weaknesses for a character (when assuming an individualistic viewpoint anyway, I don't think a true fanatic would mind much if their brain power gets utilized by the greater Nation).

At least there is a source for more information out there now. Too bad I'm still not going to buy the novel.

[IzzyChan]

There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.

[Arvo Katsuya]

There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.

Nationwiki? Sanshapedia? Kuvasaurus?

[GoGo Yubari]

There could be different levels of the "hive mind" from holy crap I'm controlling your body to a Sansha Internet communication wikipedia thing.

Nationwiki? Sanshapedia? Kuvasaurus?

I think Izzy has established it as SanshaRwrr already.

And yes, totally, Izzy.

I'm hoping there would appear some PF that would help people define (and name) it better so that we could bury the term "hive mind" because it causes too much weirdness. Please help us, the Burning Life, you are our only hope!

[Arvo Katsuya]

...or a Dropbear to swoop by like a savior (or mischevious demon that he is), to shed some light on this. Even if the message only presents more questions than answers.

If only. 

[Lillith Blackheart]

I would go with "Sanshapedia".

[Arvo Katsuya]

BTW... separation between True Slave and Citizen is in fact, PF. They're also humanized in this pocket of info, too.

Description of Esoteria:

When Sansha's Nation was at the height of its power, Esoteria was one of its richest territories. Scholars, philosophers, scientists, and many of its most affluent True Citizens made it their home. The occupants relied on the remoteness of the region to keep them safe, anticipating that the legions of True Slaves in Stain would remain an impenetrable shield that none could pass.

When the Alliance of Empires swept down upon the Nation, the shield was shattered and their forces crushed under the alliance’s unassailable might. Then, like barbarians of old, the forces of the Amarr Empire crashed into Esoteria, pillaging and slaughtering all before them.

Now, all that remains of the Nation’s once-pervasive presence in the area is floating husks; great ruins that stand as both a eulogy to Sansha's former dream and a stark warning to any who might provoke the ire of all four Empire. The Nation continues to send their own ships into the area, scouring it for any bit of lost technology that might give them an edge in their attempt to resurrect Sansha's dream.

[Lillith Blackheart]

And also the senseless slaughter of fleeing citizens.

I knew I read it somewhere and didn't just pull it out of my ass, thanks Arvo.

[The Cosmopolite]

I would point out that the idea there was a clear distinction between True Slaves and individual citizens of Sansha's Nation before its fall has never been at issue (it is, after all, in the chronicle) and that is all that piece of PF indicates, while providing the terminology 'True Citizen'.

Open to Sansha's RPers to pursue the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it, as their own ideology but I have my doubts that Sansha's Nation is like that anymore.

The fact of the fall, and its catastrophic nature for Sansha's Nation, adds a significant unreliability to any inference as to what Sansha's Nation today is like from what Sansha's Nation before the fall was like.

It is something akin to what it would be to envisage the nature of the Minmatar Republic (if we had virtually no information as to its structure and culture) from the snippets we have on the pre-Amarr conquest Minmatar Empire.

Incidentally, note that the Amarr Empire is specifically named as the perpetrator of the slaughter. This adds some weight to my feeling that the extreme enmity Sansha's Nation has for the Empire is rooted in the way the Amarr behaved towards them (my thesis was that it was due to a feeling of being stabbed in the back, but if the Amarr pursued an extermination policy of this kind it explains it even more so).

Cosmo

[Natalcya Katla]

Ruby is Esoterian. She's had the whole "out-of-the-Vault" experience. 

[Casiella]

What, the Overseer kicked her out?

[IzzyChan]

What, the Overseer kicked her out?

All birds gotta learn to fly sometime, amirite?

[Graanvlokkie]

I would point out that the idea there was a clear distinction between True Slaves and individual citizens of Sansha's Nation before its fall has never been at issue (it is, after all, in the chronicle) and that is all that piece of PF indicates, while providing the terminology 'True Citizen'.

Open to Sansha's RPers to pursue the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it, as their own ideology but I have my doubts that Sansha's Nation is like that anymore.

The fact of the fall, and its catastrophic nature for Sansha's Nation, adds a significant unreliability to any inference as to what Sansha's Nation today is like from what Sansha's Nation before the fall was like ...

Cosmo

I think Cosmo has touched on something very relevant to Sansha RP.

In my view there are two distinct versions of Sansha’s Nation. There is Sansha’s Nation before its fall, the “pre-fall ideal” as Cosmo put it, and then there is Sansha’s Nation as it exists today in the Stain Region.

Is Sansha’s Nation currently in Stain anything like how it was before the Nations fall? Before the fall we had a clear distinction between True Slaves and True Citizens. With the Nations fall many of the True Citizens were killed, or fled. I believe that there may be hardly any, if any at all, True Citizens similar to those that existed before the Nations fall.

Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain appears to be nothing like the pre-fall ideal. It does appear borg-like, it does appear to lack depth. It doesn’t appear to be anything like the pre-fall ideal. I’m not saying that this is true, but this is the impression that a casual observer would have.

This is the reason why in my RP I took the view that my character would not be a supporter of Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain, but a supporter of the “pre-fall ideal”.

From OOC discussions, such as these, and my IC interactions it appears that most, if not all, Sansha RP’ers tend to focus their RP on “the pre-fall ideal, as they understand it”. It’s not clear, however, if they believe that the current Sansha’s Nation that exists in Stain embodies this pre-fall ideal or not. 

Once the live events started I was a put a bit on the back foot.   My initial reaction was to put out a public statement distancing myself and my corporation from the current direction the Nation was taking and declaring my support to Sansha’s vision and not to Sansha’s Nation as currently exists in Stain. I decided to delay that, however, until events unfolded enough to actually see which way this would go.

I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.

Unfortunatly this is a line that is used most often by the Sansha actors and it is enforcing my IC view that the current actions by the Nation are not intended to advance or promote “the pre-fall ideal, as I understand it”, but are actions by either a madman, or a made up entity, to advance the current twisted  Sansha’s Nation as it is today in Stain.

[IzzyChan]

I always thought of the whole Unity yadda yadda as "Nation doesn't have any inner-drama fights with itself because we all get along."

The whole "individualism is fail" is kinda silly though.

^_^