Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GoGo Yubari]

I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.

Well, I disagree with this. My reading of the PF strongly suggests that Sansha was a visionary who had revolutionary ideas which really go against individualism. It is one logical way of justifying the True Slaves and all that jazz, while retaining a sort of moral high ground. It doesn't however have to go to borg-like lengths.

[Ghost Hunter]

Perhaps a new topic/split off for discussing Nation's unity? I think we're getting pretty far from this threads original point.

[Morwen Lagann]

Perhaps a new topic/split off for discussing Nation's unity? I think we're getting pretty far from this threads original point.

[mod]Thread split. Please continue the discussion about Unity here, and the discussion about Aria's proposed "capture mechanic" in the original thread.[/mod]

[Graanvlokkie]

I must admit that I cringe every time someone says the line “Nation is Unity” and argues towards loss in individualism, because that’s not how I see the pre-fall ideal. That also seems to entrench the whole Sansha=Borg assumption.

Well, I disagree with this. My reading of the PF strongly suggests that Sansha was a visionary who had revolutionary ideas which really go against individualism. It is one logical way of justifying the True Slaves and all that jazz, while retaining a sort of moral high ground. It doesn't however have to go to borg-like lengths.

For the "Post Fall Nation" I agree with you 100%.

My view of the "Pre Fall Nation" is a bit different. The PF States: “Sansha’s dream was that these zombie-like creatures could be used as soldiers and guards, thus freeing humans to pursue more peaceful and productive lifestyles. He also experimented with ship crews and captains, as he regarded space ships to be both boring and dangerous, and thus ideally suited for his creatures.”

Pre Fall Nation made true slaves, but the focus was on the citizens of the nation. I don’t think among the citizens there would be any loss of individuality as it would inhibit the creation of his utopia where humans were free to pursue peaceful productive lifestyles. His utopia wasn’t a mass of mindless hive-mind zombies, these were the tools.

Post Fall Nation does seem to focus on implanting everyone. The focus seems to have shifted from the citizens to the True Slaves. It does seem like there is a distinct difference between the Pre Fall Nation and the Post Fall Nation.

My RP focuses on advancing the Pre Fall Nation ideals, as I interpret it.  I think I should add that this does involve my full support of any type of true slave programme.

[Silver Night]

Dropbear had a few comments on this discussion, which he had to post on Eve-o for :CCP: reasons: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1337196

[Casiella]

Hasn't Ginger posted on Chatsubo before? What makes this different?

[Silver Night]

Ginger had to stop posting on chatsubo not that long ago. I'm not sure if it was a problem with him posting on chatsubo (There were some issues right around that time IIRC), or just a change in CCP policy unrelated to any specific incident, but apparently it is company-wide and applies to all sites, now. 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand?

[Mithfindel]

Also remember the Paragon Soul description:

Dearest Heloise: I apologize for the tardiness of this message. It seems our host has relocated his research efforts further abroad, making this slave delivery a much longer endeavor. When I asked why, our host assured me that our upcoming tour of the facility would explain everything. I remain skeptical. Regardless, I promise to return to you soon.

Heloise: The facilities here are astounding! Our host has assembled a team of the finest minds to bring his dream to life. They have made major strides-- the implications of their cranial implant technology alone are dazzling.

Heloise: Our host introduced what became of the slaves I delivered. The brutes were silent and inert. I tell you it was as if their very souls had been stripped from them. I will voice my concerns with our host tomorrow.

Heloise: Our host announced the birth of his ‘Nation’. I sent a communique to the Ministry of Internal Order.

Heloise: I discovered my messages are being blocked. Our host never had any intention of sending them. His automatons are everywhere now. Their number grows every day. They are watching me.

My Darling Wife: How I miss you. The slaves have been set against everyone not of the Nation. I survived only by grace. The things are slow, but efficient. I hear their footsteps pass the room, regular, constant. It is only a matter of time. I pray God forgive us our terrible transgressions. I love you, Heloise. I am sorry that I must break my promise.

Reading between the lines: The writer is an Amarr researcher, who informed the Empire about the True Slaves. While clearly displaying Sansha as quite cruel - intentionally keeping the researcher as a prisoner in a golden cage - there is also the possibility that the hostility towards outsiders was due to the attack of the empires. Also, "the slaves are set against everyone not of the Nation" would seem to indeed hint that there are people who are neither slaves or outsiders. Of course, they've had decades to go on with their experiments, so it might indeed be that even the non-slaves have "augmented consciousness implants". It may be that they aren't strictly speaking "controlled", like the True Slaves have parts of their brains simply unavailable to be used by their free will, with the rest restricted by forced behavioral patterns - but simply being part of some degree of shared consciousness (very likely by no means a complete one) might effect one's decisions. Depends also on how long this has been going on. If for decades, then as a "House of Horrors" appraoch at least the least strong-willed might be quite insane. The "noble nation" utopia sense would of course be that the True Citizens are simply an extension of the Nation itself.

[Graanvlokkie]

Though I might expand on my reasoning behind my previous post regarding my views of Sansha's focus on citizens versus focus n True Slaves.

I must admit that my views of the Pre-Fall Nation are a little biased as my reading of the prime fiction is tainted with my research into modern day Utopian theory. So when I read the PF, I reconcile what the PF states with my research and understanding of Utopian thought. I must admit I am far from being any sought of expert on the subject though. 

While I am a bit hesitant to post links to RL philosophical study papers on the subject of "Utopian Society", one common principle in most theories is balancing "the good of the individual" versus "the good of the society", how much freedom must one individual give up in order to benefit the society as a whole. So reading the fiction with this in mind I have to reconcile the two. 

This principle works on a sliding scale from total freedom (which doest even exist in modern society) to total control of each individuals freedom of movement or even freedom of thoughts. This scale exists in every society, modern or otherwise.

My thinking is that somewhere before the fall of the Nation the scale in the Pre-Fall Nation started tipping, and my currently be sitting somewhere where the Nation wants to have total control over all movements and perhaps even thoughts of its Citizens.

Which brings me to my point about Pre and Post Fall Nation. I believe that Pre-Fall Nation did Have free thinkers and philosophers with True Slaves as a tool. I believe, however, that this Post Fall Nation might have slipped so far that there may be no room for free thought at all? There may not be room for "Citizens" that existed before the fall of the Nation?

I may be wrong, but there is nothing that has happened recently in these past events to change my mind about how I perceive the Post-Fall Nation. Is the Nation as it Exists in Stain a place where free thinkers can live and flourish and still be part of the "Nation"?

Also interesting is the post by CCP Dropbear where he states:

The subtlety of the point in storyline terms comes in appreciating that the capsule itself is actually older than Sansha. The basic technology existed long before his Nation did. At the inception of Sansha's Nation over a century ago, however, capsuleers like you did not exist. This is a recent, and drastic, turn of events. What this means for Sansha's Nation is a topic equally worthy of discussion, and one that I hope is pursued further.

 

[The Cosmopolite]

A point, once more, made clear in the original chronicle which, let's remember, tells us of the critical importance of capsule technology to Sansha's True Slave program.

My inclination is that Dropbear's point is not so much technological as social and political. The free licensing of independent capsuleers from mid-YC105 onwards is a massive shift (in itself deserving of examination as to quite why it happened, though I have my own view on it) that has affected every faction in New Eden.

The interesting question here is how such a shift would affect a faction that is already intimately bound up with wide-scale utilisation of capsule technology, albeit in ways that differ radically from the norm.

Cosmo

PS. On Dev communications: I was informed directly that the CCP-wide policy is that Devs have to communicate through the CCP forums only so as to ensure that all players have equal access to what they have to say. I got the impression is was simply a decision they made as part of a general review rather than anything precipitated by a crisis or incident.

[Aria Jenneth]

[spoiler]
[a Nation insider speaking of 'True Slaves']
"It's a spectrum is, what I mean. There are so many different types, with the military one being the last and only thing you outsiders ever see, but it's just one of many.
[...]
"The True Slaves stalk the world like giants, but there are those who are only half-slaves, with a much greater degree of autonomy, or who've only had a particular section of their mind taken over.
[...]
"It's not the most common setup, but sure, some of them can explore their creative talents as much as they like while their analytical mind belongs to Nation, so they can paint and draw but they can't solve even the simplest maths problem unless their implants allow it. Others have had certain emotions suppressed."

That gives the idea. There is more. The speaker is a little ambiguous on some points elsewhere and while using the terminology 'True Slaves' for ease appears not to think that it has much meaning in reality. It should be noted that the speaker is an entirely autonomous ex-Nation member who was autonomous when in Nation but appears to consider himself to have been a 'True Slave' from the way he speaks. Some, he also says, are barely implanted at all, some don't even have a tracking device.

The clear indication of this evidence is that it's a spectrum, a continuum, running from loyal to the ideology of Nation with zero implants to well... some pretty bizarre stuff, as seen elsewhere in the novel. If an entirely autonomous but loyal individual, with no implants, considers himself to be part of Nation, and in that sense what the outside world would think of as a 'True Slave', then to me it suggests the distinction between a 'True Slave' and a 'citizen' is... of limited utility at best.
[/spoiler]

As to the weight of this PF. As indicated earlier, the novel is more or less written in subjective, limited third-person narrative (to be technical about it). But that doesn't mean it can be set aside. It's still PF and it's still evidence of the nature of Nation society. What is certainly true is that people should accord it the weight it deserves given the format.

I would have to say that to my mind, while on the specifics and details it suggests a society that may not be exactly in accord with the present vision of the Sansha RP community, it does, in fact, answer the general desire of that RP community to have a more nuanced and human viewpoint on Sansha's Nation.

This.

Lovely find, Cosmo.

[Ghost Hunter]

My apologies if I seem to be "shoving this in", as it were...


My views on Nation's unity and the entire concept of Sansha's Nation takes something of an extremely optimistic point of view. That being said, I hope I can convey this best I can.

The impression given to me by the original Sansha's Nation chronicle was one of an honest man's attempts at a better future going horribly wrong. The chronicle itself remarks that Sansha began believing in his own hype and this is what turned it from "Another Amarr Empire" into "Sansha's Nation" for me. Sansha innovates and endeavors to a utopian future for mankind because he honestly believes in it. If it was not for this, Sansha's Nation would be an off-shoot of the Amarr Empire - who in some capacity, already used some cybernetics on their slaves. (I may be incorrectly remembering that)

In this light as I perceive the Nation, Sansha's innovations and technological achievements make a twisted kind of sense. In the Pre-Fall Nation, Sansha could have very well intended the True Slaves to be what they're commonly perceived to be - soldiers and guards. However, the Fall and the mass desertion of many Nation citizens very likely slapped him around and forced him to think of a new means to the end.

Thus, in the post-Fall Nation (and arguably the Empyrean Age Nation) I perceive technology as being even more important than it was before. More so, I believe that Nation's utopian means to the end is solely comprised of the True Slaves and the True Citizens. Cybernetic augmentation and networking is Sansha's new means to the utopian end. Technological evolution, I would say.

With this understanding, Nation's unity is put into a clear perspective for myself. It is the ultimate product of intelligence networking - the result of countless numbers of people being connected through technology and information. There is the understandable argument that it is similar to the Borg Collective's Hive Mind. I am inclined to agree there are similarities, as much as I despise the comparison. The real difference, however, is in the fine print.

True Slaves and True Citizens do not have their personalities completely wiped. Indeed, there is a degree of alteration but the significant details of the individual are kept intact. The evidence for this is in the various Slave Commanders' behavior, old Nation ship logs and some flavor text that shows up in Deadspace. Maybe these few incidents are coloring my perspective, I've not seem much to the contrary yet.

Nation people, True Slaves and True Citizens, build community. They communicate, associate, intermingle with one another. Social barriers are broken down and destroyed by technology, allowing people to freely interact with one another with almost no social inhibition. New people are not shoved into the pre-existing unity, they are eased into it - introduced, welcomed, placed. In this way, there is a substantial difference to the violent and emotionless Borg Hive Mind and the welcoming presence of Nation's unity.


My personal belief (or argument, which ever you prefer) may understandably appear as if I'm painting Nation as the "good guy" in EVE. Rather, it is my attempt at turning Nation from the evil cybernetic twin of the Amarr Empire into something more appreciable as a story entity - the ambitions of a well intentioned extremist and the social incompatibility between people.

Nation is very isolationist and private - its behavior towards keeping quiet and out of the way except when it wants to make itself known is indicative of this. Combine that with Nation's "transhuman" evolutionary path of cybernetic augmentation and networking - you get a very socially awkward picture. True Slaves and True Citizens don't intermingle or communicate easily with the outside world. They are part of a group of people so fundamentally different from normal humans they appear as monsters. In this way, it is understandable why the vast majority of the universe perceives the Nation as a hulking, all consuming enslavement machine.

The other social fact to consider is of course, Nation is still at war.

A very funny and somewhat subtle point in EVE's history I've noticed is that the war started by the four empires a century ago never ended for Sansha's Nation. There was no official truce signed between all the parties declaring the war over. In reality, the war is still going on. It's very likely the Nation would end all hostilities against the Empires and solely keep to its old sovereign space if the official truce was signed. Who knows what this end to the war might mean? We might see more True Citizens and the civilian population of Nation being public instead of shielded by the True Slaves. Nation slave raids into their war opponents territory might stop. A lot of possibilities, I think.


tl;dr Sansha Kuvakei is a Well Intentioned Extremist. Nation's unity is a massive networking between people that brings everyone closer without completely wiping out all individuality (The Geth and Therians say hello). People can't understand what Nation is and think of them as evil robo-slavers. Nation people keep to themselves in order to survive. War is still going on from a century ago because the Empires are indecisive buggers who couldn't sign a peace treaty worth a damn.

[Arvo Katsuya]

You were telling me about your ideas on this last night. And I have to say... I love that angle and hope that sort of shade of gray is what's really going on.

[Aria Jenneth]

You were telling me about your ideas on this last night. And I have to say... I love that angle and hope that sort of shade of gray is what's really going on.

Pretty sure it is, actually. It's what I meant about "motive."

*forces self offline, or tries*

God, I need to stop checking in here.

[Casiella]

Anybody who uses TV Tropes as a source is A-OK in my book.