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[IzzyChan]

Funny a non sansha player proposed this. Are there any sansha players that actually want to zombify people?

No, we aren't the borg.   

[Goshien]

Let's see. I wonder how many of our Amarr players would agree to this suggestion were the "Sansha" replaced with "Imperial" and "Implants" with "Vitoc" ?

Would the UK use a Shamanistic herbs to convince Amarrians to change sides? One with excactly the same effects as Vitoc treatments?

Would it be fair representation? Would it effect views if the one suggesting the idea were playing Gallante?

How about it? Sound like something Amarr/Minmatar players would like to use?

I didn't say anything about people agreeing to it. Realistically it just doesn't work out. But don't just slap aside ideas because you think it misrepresents your view of the sansha. You may not like it but I recall CCP spending a good week pulling a borg. what actually happened? I don't know, but most people in the game know less then I do, and the few that know more probally aren't talking. So I'd get used to people thinking that the Sansha want to zombiefy people because the evidence is there to support the stereotype.

[Chell Charon]

Goshien. That is in In Character all fine and dandy, firebrands gogo.

In Out Of Character  it is not so fine and dandy, because I would imagine the Player to know their character might not have the whole story. (I know I ain't have it either mind)

Especially when those within the faction disagree OOC.

Can I put this any clearer?

In Character spew your characters opinions all you want, based on what he/she knows and/or believes.

All free and fair game.

Out Of Character however..

[Casiella]

I'm genuinely and sincerely confused (not that this is a new state for me).

Okay, so we can dispense with the IC opinions and such, since we all agree that those will probably not change due to OOC discussion, barring somebody realizing that they really truly misunderstood things. And I think none of us really have a problem with this part, anyway, from what I read.

But what OOC issues have arisen here with Aria's suggestion? I hear some of the Sansha players expressing some frustration, of course. Why do you not like the impression people have (OOC) of the Sansha? What should change?

This should stay separate from discussion of the design of the mechanic itself. Rather, I want to focus on the underlying assumptions about the lore and IC stuff.

Help!

[Morwen Lagann]

[mod]Thread split. Please continue the discussion about Aria's proposed "capture mechanic" here, and the discussion about Unity in the new one.[/mod]

[Aria Jenneth]

So. Hi.

Folks, let me explain, very simply and concretely, what I suggested a system for.

I suggested a system by which non-Nation characters might be implanted, and de-implanted. I suggested a system by which un-implanted Nation characters might have their human rights similarly violated: a bit of gray matter scrubby-scrubby.

That was all. That was it.

Did I tell you how to play your character?

Did I tell you what your character's view of the Nation was?

Did I tell you what your character had to think of True Slaves?

Did I tell you that your character had to participate?

Did I tell you that your character had to cooperate with people who did?

Did I, indeed, tell you anything at all that isn't a perfectly fair interpretation of the PF-- that is to say, sometimes the Nation implants people?

I certainly hope not, because that's by no means what I set out to do.

Maybe this will make it a little clearer:

I hate pre-scripted plots. I loathe them with a burning passion, possibly because I used to be the kind of gamemaster who would try to ram them down people's throats willy-nilly. Happily, my players wouldn't stand for it-- they'd stick around, but they'd by no means stick to what I had planned for them. They'd come up with their own solutions, ignore story hooks entirely, and go shooting merrily off on their own, forcing me to improvise.

And you know what? It made for a hell of a lot better game. Eventually, I stopped dropping virtually all attempt at linear plotting and started just creating a sort of storyline ecosystem: a world for my players to bounce around in.

The best story, from where I stand, is the one that allows anything that can happen within the setting, not the system, to happen.

So you can imagine my frustration when I started gaming online (Neverwinter Nights) and found fantastic roleplaying settings where nobody ever really died or even lost all their gear. That was one kind of problem. So, I left, and signed up for a setting where actions had genuine consequences. That would be Eve.

Eve's great. You can lose everything just by being dumb and loading everything you own into a single poorly-defended hauler, then flying through a gatecamp. I love it.

Only, you can't get out of your ship. Not really. And with the relative shortage of GM interaction, interaction with anything that doesn't somehow involve flying a ship is either highly abstracted (markets) or non-existent without player the player deciding that it happened (getting drunk, separated from your security detail, and waylaid in an alley).

Outside of "professional" activities, it's very difficult for anything unplanned to happen to an Eve PC. To some degree, that's just the way the game is-- but there are ways we could do better.

Now, just for example: Aria, personally, is in a bit of a pickle. She's beholden to the Angel Cartel for some sins I won't get into, stuck in a couple deep holes psychologically, and generally doing a fine job of driving herself towards what might be either enlightenment or just a deep, dark hole.

And ya know, I'd kind of like someone to be able to jerk her out of some or all of that by doing something I don't expect, not necessarily limited to blowing her up or talking to her.

For instance, Aria could make a very interesting Nation character. But, she'd never do it voluntarily and I'd never do it to her involuntarily by sticking up some sort of storyline down her neck.

If I want that, I'll go write a novel, thanks.

I'd like that to be possible. Or for Aria to go rescue Kostantin Mort, if he happens to return to play (he gave me and Celes Tenebrae the right to determine what happens to his character before he retired, as I believe he will confirm if asked, but, again, static storylines don't sit well with me).

That's pretty much all there is to it.

-------

So-- as for my views on the Nation?

1. Yes, I think elements of the Nation are, quite simply, probably abducting and implanting people. I explained my reasoning in my reply to Lillith in the IGS topic, so I won't repeat it all here.

2. It does seem to me as though the majority of Nation, including Sansha Kuvakei and the current ongoing plot, are involved up to their eyeballs in a pattern of violent abduction, involuntary implantation, and other activities generally considered unsavory. Does this make them cookie-cutter villains? God, I hope not: the key to my heart is not the fact of their actions, but the motives behind them.

However, what might surprise a few of you (Chell....):

3. I love the idea of the "pre-fall idealists." Love it. Guys, if you want to play Nation idealists out to restore the Nation to its former glory without packing implants into people's heads, please do! Silver Night and company did loads for Nation PR, and as Aria I found that a really challenging approach to argue against. It's fun. It's interesting. It's a lovely shade of gray, from where I sit.

However, I would ask that you not deny the other possible side of Nation roleplay, which isn't exactly the Borg (as Cosmo has pointed out elsewhere), but is doing what most people would probably consider some pretty sinister stuff.

If they are, how does that diminish what you guys are doing? How does that detract from it in any way, excepting that you have forces within your own faction tending to undermine your PR efforts?

Well? So do the Amarr. So do the Minmatar. One of these days, the Gallente and Caldari are going to start taking turns conducting massacres. I'm sure you guys didn't sign up to redeem not only the Nation, but its PF as well.

So, you're going to have to put up, not only with die-hard Nation-haters like Aria, but also with the less-picturesque bits of your own faction.

Expecting that of you doesn't seem the slightest bit unfair to me.

So, with all that said, what I offered was a tool-- not a demand, "THOU SHALT USE THIS AND BE ALL BORG AND STUFF!!"-- just a tool. For those of you, if any, who want to go around implanting people, you can.

And for those of you who don't? You can stay out of it-- or try to stop the would-be implanters-- or take part just for the sake of making your character a possible target for unethical Empire loyalists.

There's no rule that only Nation can victimize people.

It's all up to you. If Nation's not actually so unified as all that? Great. If it is? Great.

That's your business.

You want to know what side I'm on in all of this? Some folks seem to think Eve is a story of heroes and villains; I'm not one of them. I'm with M. Cromwell, from the chronicle "Taught Thoughts":

"People are people, with good and bad sides. Good people can do terrible things; bad people can perform wonders."

That's where I, the player, stand. Make of it what you like.

[Arvo Katsuya]

Aria, I never completely denounced this idea the first time I read it, and put my thoughts out it. I would love the 'Dynamic' aspect to roleplay as opposed to 'Static' or 'Scripted'. I would wish more people as a whole were more perceptive of this varient of roleplay, and capitalize on another's motives or feelings that could change them, with the other party being more receptive to those implications and the enviroment as a whole.

Simply put, 'Scripted' roleplay doesn't act like RL. You pretty much set in your mind what is the conclusion to the chapter of a character's development, and say 'screw you' to everyone else should anything dare compromise that. (Note: To those few roleplaying with me now lately, as I have discussed things OOC about my character, I only state greatest possible outcomes. *wink*)

Unfortunately, while Dynamic roleplay is overall a greater experiance (because you don't know what will happen for one)... its like building a utopia via Nation for it to work... without the implants. For it to work, just about everyone participating has to keep an open mind with their character, and trust everyone else with it. To not outright screw it over for the sake of screwing it over because of a petty fight the players had the other day, or general asshatery by someone just wanting to be a troll. That they'll honor the rules governing a Dynamic roleplay system, should they fall unfavorably on them when they are on the recieving end of something. It only takes a single bad apple to sour everyone else's outlook on it, and encourage similar behavior after starting the project.

I would participate in this, if it can be done right. Or any other way to encourage dynamic roleplay. But I'm somewhat cautious on the players controlling the characters.

[Aria Jenneth]

God, I really need to get to my essays (not the ones here), but ...

Unfortunately, while Dynamic roleplay is overall a greater experiance (because you don't know what will happen for one)... its like building a utopia via Nation for it to work... without the implants.

Well, maybe, maybe not. It's an experiment. If it doesn't work, folks walk off disgruntled and somebody writes a short story about how their character got turned back from being New Eden's first human lint roller.

If it works (and until it fails) we have a blast.

For it to work, just about everyone participating has to keep an open mind with their character, and trust everyone else with it.

That's pretty much part and parcel of it, yes.

To not outright screw it over for the sake of screwing it over because of a petty fight the players had the other day, or general asshatery by someone just wanting to be a troll.

Also part and parcel, but maybe not as difficult as you'd think. People interested in this sort of thing tend to come into it with good faith; if we get an invasion of former Goonswarm, we can deal with it when it happens. While there's presently no provision for this, there should be a method for excluding people who get involved just to ruin things for others.

That they'll honor the rules governing a Dynamic roleplay system, should they fall unfavorably on them when they are on the recieving end of something.

Hm. We've already had at least two people sign up specifically for the thrill of risking the receiving end (Vikarion and me). When you're invited to do something like this, there's a certain inherent pressure to play by the rules and be a good sport ...

It only takes a single bad apple to sour everyone else's outlook on it, and encourage similar behavior after starting the project.

In my experience it takes several. There's a certain camaraderie to these things, so the "good apples" will tend to close ranks against those who break the rules.

Bad apple one pops up, gets the boot. Bad apple two pops up, also gets the boot. A whole clutch of bad apples turns up, there's a brief fit of vicious drama, and ultimately they get the boot as well. The point where you're typically screwed is the point where the people "running the show" turn out, or are widely thought, to be bad apples (one reason I take umbrage to the implications made about my motives lately).

Poor sports are usually recognized for what they are, and blame usually falls where it should. And hey, even if it all falls apart, it's fun while it lasts.

I would participate in this, if it can be done right. Or any other way to encourage dynamic roleplay. But I'm somewhat cautious on the players controlling the characters.

With good reason, I'll admit: this is Eve. "Ethics: Strictly Optional," as the Desusig goes.

But this is the sort of utterly "geeky" RP that people like Goonswarm don't even usually bother to mock. As for our fellow roleplayers, breaking faith on something like this strikes me as a good way to get your name as a roleplayer badly blackened, on par with godmoding (which is, come to think of it, what it would be).

Go through with it, and have a blast (albeit at the expense of your character's IC suffering), or don't, miss out, and lose roleplayer cred, just so your character "wins" this round?

Maybe it's not as obvious a choice for everyone, but....

[Arvo Katsuya]

Alright, I'm sold.

Count me in. Even though the liklihood of this happening to me is incredibly low, I'll accept it should it happen.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Thing about it, Aria, we never implied any other Nation-friendly RPers couldn't do it, we just stated we had no interest and why we had no interest.

[Arvo Katsuya]

The way I'm reading it now, Aria is just proposing a mechanic for Sansha roleplayers to utilize. How you use it, would rest on you. I mentioned before on the EVE Fiction thread, I agree that it would be not in a few character's motives to do it. The PR ramifications would be stacked against you (when they haven't already enough when there's a ton of True Slave actors and no True Citizen ones to act as a balancing point, going around planet to planet and abducting people all over the place). However, you can look at it this way.   

Focus on the most hostile threats that openly oppose Nation, and explain it in such a way that you are only defending Nation's interests or security by said selective forced implantation... then you have a save. 

I see a Myxx and Aria who as players, are inviting themselves to join Nation when their characters cannot willingly as they are strongly anti-Nation by means of this mechanic... and a Vikarion who is ex-Sansha, who jumped on this so far. All viable targets.

[Aria Jenneth]

Thanks, Arvo. That means a lot, under the circumstances.

Please remember to sign on the dotted line when you get the chance. It's important we keep track of who all has signed up.  


Lillith:

... we never implied any other Nation-friendly RPers couldn't do it ...

If you'll look back over your own and others' posts, both in this topic and in its IGS counterpart, I think you'll find that you (collectively) actually kinda did. You may feel I'm reading too broadly, but claiming that my understanding of the Nation's modern doings is based on weak research also implicitly asserts that those who play in accordance with my understanding are guilty of the same thing. Similarly, proclaiming "We are not Borg," as a reason not to use these mechanics proclaims by implication that any Nation loyalist who makes use of these mechanics is playing Borg.

And then there's Chell.

Yeah. ... you may have to excuse me; I've had my research, good faith, and IC/OOC divide all impugned over this, so perhaps I'm feeling less forgiving than I otherwise might.

I would, however, consider it a kindness if, instead of explaining repeatedly in great detail why you are not interested, you might consider pointing us to anyone who might be interested, or else pointing those same people to us.

All that said, Arvo's absolutely right: if you should happen to join in, and catch Aria, yeah, you'd have my voice. RP fanatic's honor. Whether you care, well, that's up to you.

[Lillith Blackheart]

You may feel I'm reading too broadly

I do. I don't imply things, I just say them fairly flat out, had I intended to say "This is something no Sansha RPer will do!" then that is what I'd say. It would also be a ridiculous thing to say, since I can't say what someone else is going to do.

I just stated that I was not interested, and proceeded to explain why I was not interested. Anything you read beyond that was not written there.

[Aria Jenneth]

Anything you read beyond that was not written there.

Must be nice, never producing a sentence that contains what you didn't intend it to. Or rather, says more than you meant it to say.

But let's move on, shall we?

One major thing the group seems to be missing at the moment is a single Nation player, which kind of defeats the purpose. If you've got thoughts, I'd like to hear them.

[Arvo Katsuya]

Don't worry. I'm playing the mediary here.

Here are some of the points being made that I talked to in private with Lillith and Chell.

While she (I know the player is a he, but who cares as that's the avatar ) will not engage it herself nor Chell, as it is not in their character's motives, it can be for those may fit the bill. I could see selective implantation coming from Ghost. Despite the fact the majority of the outspoken Nation roleplayers would be in their nature to do this, they didn't discredit the mechanic itself. I think that was the misconception here. For the groups this does apply to, I feel this sort of mechanic would make for something good to have on the table.

The 'trust' issue is also not so much the problem either. This can simply being solved by guaging the integrity of the player who is participating. Much like standard corp recruiting, where you need to look into API measures and other procedures, the integrity of the player would also have to be put into account. If the player in question participating isn't very trustworthy, chances are good they won't be recruited. There's always going to be a risk involved no matter what precautions you make regardless, mechanic or not.

However, there's kinks that need to be worked out for this to work.

First, there's the [IMPLANTED] tag. Also, sadly, even the url to the game itself and participating. Why do these need to become removed, you ask? The metagame.

Say someone from Corp A decides they want to play. The roleplayer is completely trustworthy and would make a great addition. They get implanted and now they have to wear the tag on their profile. The CEO of Corp A didn't decide to join the game themselves and sees the tag (or the url to the game). This is going to prompt a scan or other nasty thing where there was no justification IC for it to take place.

If the system revolving around this mechanic is based on trust, then it would be in the implanted player's responsibility to drop hints in changes of behavior and the like if they are still among their original corporation. Just as it is the responsibility of the CEO to look after its corp and be cautious of these things and be aware of the risk of each character in their corp has. Because like it or not, the implanted player is playing the game as they want to, wheter the CEO is taking part of  the mechanic or not.

Simply put, if this is going to be about dynamic RP, the whole thing should be RP'd out. It should really come down to the players to track down and transmit to the others as to who is implanted, like anything else documented. Then it becomes more fair on the Nation-side of the game field.

While this goes into the grayer areas of valid roleplay, Sansha's Nation has always been about the 'spy game'. And on this playing field, I would imagine they would have the advantage. To a non-Sansha player, they would have to go through a procedure to see if the person is implanted. However, to someone who has been reversed of this condition, the Nation side would recognize this right away as they wouldn't 'sense' them as part of the collective network they are a part of.

Yes, there's alot of trust involved, and also a sense of professionalism involved into the parties not involved into the game themselves and hope there won't be any potential OOC grudges over IC actions. However, again... I can look at it if the person disrespects the rules, they put themselves at risk as being a pariah of the roleplaying community.