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[Alizabeth]

http://www.anyclip.com/movies/the-dark-knight/the-joker-offers-his-services/#!quotes/  (Skip ahead to one minute.  I tried to find a better clip on youtube, but the quality was miserable.  You should also probably read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195797&find=unread , else not much will make sense.)

So, we all play Eve Online, a truly terrible internet spaceship game, and, in addition to griefing, ganking, scamming, blobbing, falcon alting, hotdroping, we all seem to like the story aspect of the game.  (Except TEA, no one likes that.)  So, we all RP.  Unlike, say D&D, though, our characters can't really affect anything.  No capsuleer, corp, alliance, hell even the CFC is not going to do anything substantial to change the story.  It's game design more than anything else.  No matter how many Serpenits rats I kill (and holy cow did I kill a lot of them) they're going to keep coming and coming and coming.  No matter how many times some Sani Sabik RPer kills Khanid Navy rats, the Khanid Kingdom is not going to collapse and be replaced by null sec space with Blood Raider sov.  I know this; dear god, I hope you know this, too. 

Now, in regards to Aliza's proposal, which seems to be derrided by some as being derranged or deluded.  I've seen IC and OOC comments to the such.  Now, while I could shrug, mutter something about worthless pubbies and go back to listening to Little Bees on endless repeat ( http://www.listenonrepeat.com/watch/?v=Vfv1QtZDirY ), I'm going to take the time to explain my view point. 

One:  I know that there is no chance in hell of what Aliza asked for coming to pass.  Even if she'd offered to do it for free, CONCORD would say no.  They have to.  Not for RP reasons, but game design reasons.  However, that does not mean it should not have been proposed from an IC standpoint.  There is really no logical reason for Aliza to say to herself, "We should go jihad on Nation.  But I won't bring it up because NPC nullsec is good for the game."  ICly, she would see herself as a fulcrum point to make an attempt to negotiate some sort of action against Nation, whom she hates deeply.  As for her request, ICly she knows not all the demands are not going to be met.  But she started out with a list that she knew she could take the Mittens and have him send the swarm to war.  Even then, she believed CONCORD would say no.  She doesn't like them or trust them.  Aliza envisions the dismantling of CONCORD is a great first step to a better cluster.  So, why would you propose something you know is not going to happen?  Publicity.  Remember, ICly, the IGS is a capsuleer forum, but baseliners also read it.  Aliza feels, and I think this is justified from an OOC perspective, that those baseliners are going to look and see that someone offered to get rid of Nation and were turned down.  For Aliza this only undermines CONCORD and the big four.  Which again, is a goal of hers.  So that covers the more abstract portion of her proposal.

Two: Alizas demands have been viewed as unreasonable.  For some reason, people think that ten trillion is a lot of ISK.  To individual high sec pilots, sure.  Coalitions, on the other hand are a different animal.  The CFC is the richest organization in the game.  We've been gouging the rest of the cluster with Tech for so long that alliance wallets have gone to ludicrous amounts-right to plaid.  Again, realistically, to get a bunch of lazy goons to go do this thing, it's going to take an incentive.  As for the ships, if CONCORD did say yes, (and as Aliza said IC) the campaign would be brutal.  Supercaps would be fielded and lost at a rate that would make past block wars look like militia battles.  The anit-cloaking tech, DED SWAT protecting CFC space: ICly, that was just a bargaining position. 

So yes.  My post.  Outlandish?  Of course.  Deranged?  Not at all.

[Katrina Oniseki]

You may justify it how you like, and while I see your point - the fact is that from both an IC and OOC standpoint... it's simply not going to happen. Even if it could happen within the mechanics or feasibility of the game, it wouldn't.

The proposal is so wildly imbalanced, and coming from a three day old member of a non-executor Goonswarm corp, who's got a history of doing wildly deranged things... that it's really not much of a stretch for our characters to call it anything but deranged or silly or [insert word here]. Note that this paragraph is not an attack on you as a person, Goonswarm member, or roleplayer.

I'm saying the proposal doesn't hold any weight coming from Alizabeth Vea, speaking to one of the most powerful and prestigious organizations in the cluster - who I'd remind... as powerful as CONDI is, they still pay CONCORD to even exist.

That said, I am not going tosay it's stupid to post it on the IGS. It's perfectly okay to post it... just remember that when she puts stuff like that on the public IGS, as my character pointed out, she's going to get ridiculed.

[Sepherim]

There are two different dimensions to this issue.

On one hand we have the IC perspective. Seph doesn't think it's realistic, but not because of game mechanics, but of politics, the working of the four and CONCORD, etc. It is unrealistic not because it can't happen in game, but because it can't happen withing the RP logic of the world (to his understanding). Of course publicity may be well served, but he doesn't care much about it. All my comments on the IGS gollow only this dimension of the issue, as Seph doens't know that it's a game.

The other hand, OOCly, obviously it can't work. But if we don't do things because gameplay wise they are impossible, then nothing can be done in general, beyond FW (which already has its thread), and reducing all RP to that would be pretty sad. So, OOCly, go for it!

[Alizabeth]

I'm not really concerned about the IC response.  Aliza's not one of the GSF Illum, just someone with connections, maybe better than most, maybe not.  If I was concerned with what people thought of Aliza ICly, I would have attempted suicide a long time ago.

There does, however seem to be an undercurrent of OOC hostility.  That is what I am trying to address. 

[Katrina Oniseki]

There does, however seem to be an undercurrent of OOC hostility.  That is what I am trying to address.

I would caution against inviting this discussion here, as I have an idea what sort of OOC is going on. Perhaps talking to the people individually in private would be better.

[Alizabeth]

I'm not trying to incite anything.  Just trying to explain. 

[Sepherim]

No OOC hostility here, can't say for the rest.

[Khloe]

It strikes me that when something ambitious appears like this (regardless of who it is) there is a tendency among a community of characters to cry foul. If one were to approach this purely from an in-character point of view, we could see this as an easy way to garner credibility by 'debunking the madman', or 'discrediting an adversary' for personal political gain. If what Katrina says is true and Ms. Vea isn't a well respected member of the capsule community, discrediting her won't have much of an impact and 'debunking' her ambitions will garner very little political capital.

The issue as I see it is the capsule community is full of very ambitious people who talk a lot about doing something yet rarely take the dedication to see it build, thrive, and grow into something worth admiring. In a way, when you make a grand proposal like this, you cannot simply 'make the proposal' and expect people to flock to your cause. You have to display some leadership ability, organization, and planning skill, to show that you have attainable goals to achieving your ultimate objective. The end cause may be a pipe dream, but if you don't have attainable objectives for people to cooperate, compete, and thrive toward something greater, then there's nothing for people to hold onto.

If your goal was to get people to discuss Sansha's Nation, you may have succeeded, but I think you might need to do more to actually set events into motion. But that's just my opinion...

[Alizabeth]

Firstly, people should know I switched to Goons for several reasons (which will not be discussed in public) but one of the key ones is that I talked to Mittani more than I talked to Zagdul, the FA executor.  Aliza, nor I would not be the one setting plans into motion.  She's simply opening up a dialogue with CONCORD.  That said, if Falcon agreed to the terms, or most of the terms, I am confident I could set events into motion, in game.  "Mittens, CCP's gonna give us the anticloaking pulse thingie that CONCORD uses.  A BPO per member alliance.  Oh, and a boat load of capitals and supercaps.  No, not Boat.  A boat load.  Cripes, one of him is enough.  Right, where was I?  Oh yeah.  All we have to do is shoot some rats in Stain and we get free shit."  Well, we'd be taking space in Catch tomorrow and Stain the day after.

Mittani is not an RPer.  Yet.  I'm still working on that.  Even if he was, the CFC is huge.  An effort like the one Aliza proposed would have to be justified to member alliances.  We're a coalition, not effing Band of effing Brothers.  Can you imagine what the leadership meeting would sound like:

Mittani: we're going to Stain, as a coalition.  We're bringing it all.  GSOL and Padded helmets are already moving assets into place.  Get started on your own move.  Cap convoys will be friday, subcap convoys going for a week starting tomorrow. 
someone else: We're going after -A-?
Mittani: no, we're doing this thing for a storyline. 
someone else:  Huh?
Mittani: yeah, I talked to CCP Falcon and we're working with the live events team.
someone else: why in god's name would you talk to that scrublord?  And wtf is a live events team?

EVENTUALLY:

Mittani: we're also getting some bpos for modules that concord uses in highsec, able to decloak anything on the grid.
someone else: Right, rolling out caps on friday.  Anything else we should know to deploy?
Rydis: Just be ready to kill all those ******g ******s.

[lallara zhuul]

So your suggestion for the live event team to get big alliances involved in storylines is giving them overpowered BPOs for modules that break the game?

[Davlos]

Delete.

[lallara zhuul]

Just a few things about EVE history.

One of the shortcomings of AURORA was that all its actors were loot pinatas.
Also it was directly connected to the old crew of EVE therefore all its storylines were known before hand by the powers that be so that they could be abused by them.

What you are suggesting is creating a custom storyline for Goonswarm where they will get extra super good loot for the whole alliance while grinding ISK.

This is the exact pitfall that the storyline team most likely will want to avoid.

Being a loot pinata and having the story known by those who take part in it before hand.

A few other tidbits from EVE history.

Covert ops cloak came from a storyline to a double-zero alliance.
Miner 2s came from a storyline to a double-zero alliance.

The whole T2 production before invention encouraged creating monopolies for modules and ships for greater profits.

Your suggestion is pretty much against the grain of the evolution of EVE in the past eight years.

[Lyn Farel]

ICly, not much to add to what others already said. My character finds it ludicrous and also, is fundamentally against anything that could benefit nullsec alliances more than making them generate money for CONCORD. Aka making them truly dangerous.

OOCly, well yes, nothing of this will happen of course... Of course ? Sometimes with the CSM i'm not even sure... Anyway, I read that post like a goon troll disguised as an IC post. Maybe that's not what you meant of course, but that's how I read it. And maybe other people too.

I am probably biaised though, considering my mysanthropic views of nullsec alliances in general, and my profound dislike for Mittens that represents almost everything I despise OOCly.

Anyway yeah, I have had enough of free loot pinatas for nullsec people.

[Davlos]

AURORA and all kinds of Live Events by CCP personnel was completely nixed and buried alive on 2007 because Goons were kicking up a huge fuss and basically DDOS'd the forum in their hissy fit because somebody else in Internet Spaceships was allegedly getting super good loot. Not only did the RP community get deprived of it - the rest of the EVE community was deprived of live events because of Goonswarm's selfish acts. It's only very recently that Live Events are starting to come back again, and to think that CCP would - to borrow Lallara's words - create a custom storyline for Goonswarm where they will get extra super good loot for the whole alliance while grinding ISK is going to be a complete joke.

How can anyone here who claims to be part of the RP community in their good conscience join Goonswarm and flaunt their less than week-old membership in our faces?

[Alizabeth]

Again, let me reiterate, I know it's not going to happen.  Glad we cleared that up.

Also, apparently Aliza telling someone ICly to go and off themselves because of their horrible posting is against the rules.  Does CCP even play this game?  It's not like I said they should do it IRL.  (Although, having met The Wiz, I can really understand where Mittani came from there.)

And it's just the Goon kool-aid.  You'll notice I left FA.  I'm a Goon, not a F.A.G.  Glad we cleared that up, too!

Edit:
"How can anyone here who claims to be part of the RP community in their good conscience join Goonswarm and flaunt their less than week-old membership in our faces?"

I was well involved in Goonfleet before I joined Amok.  It was a pretty simple matter to join.  There was a jabber ping: hey, Rydis, can we talk?  Then there was some talking on mumble and then I apped and was accepted.  For those that know anything about joining nullsec alliances you will understand how unusual that is.  Hell, I didn't even give her my API until after I was in.  Seriously, it took less than an hour.

But seriously, the hate.  I don't get it?  Because I like to RP I should not be able to enjoy the game in the way that I want to?  And I thought I was elitist.  Just wow.