Backstage - OOC Forums
Archives => Katacombs => Topic started by: Alizabeth on 21 Jan 2013, 19:35
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http://www.anyclip.com/movies/the-dark-knight/the-joker-offers-his-services/#!quotes/ (Skip ahead to one minute. I tried to find a better clip on youtube, but the quality was miserable. You should also probably read this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195797&find=unread , else not much will make sense.)
So, we all play Eve Online, a truly terrible internet spaceship game, and, in addition to griefing, ganking, scamming, blobbing, falcon alting, hotdroping, we all seem to like the story aspect of the game. (Except TEA, no one likes that.) So, we all RP. Unlike, say D&D, though, our characters can't really affect anything. No capsuleer, corp, alliance, hell even the CFC is not going to do anything substantial to change the story. It's game design more than anything else. No matter how many Serpenits rats I kill (and holy cow did I kill a lot of them) they're going to keep coming and coming and coming. No matter how many times some Sani Sabik RPer kills Khanid Navy rats, the Khanid Kingdom is not going to collapse and be replaced by null sec space with Blood Raider sov. I know this; dear god, I hope you know this, too.
Now, in regards to Aliza's proposal, which seems to be derrided by some as being derranged or deluded. I've seen IC and OOC comments to the such. Now, while I could shrug, mutter something about worthless pubbies and go back to listening to Little Bees on endless repeat ( http://www.listenonrepeat.com/watch/?v=Vfv1QtZDirY ), I'm going to take the time to explain my view point.
One: I know that there is no chance in hell of what Aliza asked for coming to pass. Even if she'd offered to do it for free, CONCORD would say no. They have to. Not for RP reasons, but game design reasons. However, that does not mean it should not have been proposed from an IC standpoint. There is really no logical reason for Aliza to say to herself, "We should go jihad on Nation. But I won't bring it up because NPC nullsec is good for the game." ICly, she would see herself as a fulcrum point to make an attempt to negotiate some sort of action against Nation, whom she hates deeply. As for her request, ICly she knows not all the demands are not going to be met. But she started out with a list that she knew she could take the Mittens and have him send the swarm to war. Even then, she believed CONCORD would say no. She doesn't like them or trust them. Aliza envisions the dismantling of CONCORD is a great first step to a better cluster. So, why would you propose something you know is not going to happen? Publicity. Remember, ICly, the IGS is a capsuleer forum, but baseliners also read it. Aliza feels, and I think this is justified from an OOC perspective, that those baseliners are going to look and see that someone offered to get rid of Nation and were turned down. For Aliza this only undermines CONCORD and the big four. Which again, is a goal of hers. So that covers the more abstract portion of her proposal.
Two: Alizas demands have been viewed as unreasonable. For some reason, people think that ten trillion is a lot of ISK. To individual high sec pilots, sure. Coalitions, on the other hand are a different animal. The CFC is the richest organization in the game. We've been gouging the rest of the cluster with Tech for so long that alliance wallets have gone to ludicrous amounts-right to plaid. Again, realistically, to get a bunch of lazy goons to go do this thing, it's going to take an incentive. As for the ships, if CONCORD did say yes, (and as Aliza said IC) the campaign would be brutal. Supercaps would be fielded and lost at a rate that would make past block wars look like militia battles. The anit-cloaking tech, DED SWAT protecting CFC space: ICly, that was just a bargaining position.
So yes. My post. Outlandish? Of course. Deranged? Not at all.
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You may justify it how you like, and while I see your point - the fact is that from both an IC and OOC standpoint... it's simply not going to happen. Even if it could happen within the mechanics or feasibility of the game, it wouldn't.
The proposal is so wildly imbalanced, and coming from a three day old member of a non-executor Goonswarm corp, who's got a history of doing wildly deranged things... that it's really not much of a stretch for our characters to call it anything but deranged or silly or [insert word here]. Note that this paragraph is not an attack on you as a person, Goonswarm member, or roleplayer.
I'm saying the proposal doesn't hold any weight coming from Alizabeth Vea, speaking to one of the most powerful and prestigious organizations in the cluster - who I'd remind... as powerful as CONDI is, they still pay CONCORD to even exist.
That said, I am not going tosay it's stupid to post it on the IGS. It's perfectly okay to post it... just remember that when she puts stuff like that on the public IGS, as my character pointed out, she's going to get ridiculed.
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There are two different dimensions to this issue.
On one hand we have the IC perspective. Seph doesn't think it's realistic, but not because of game mechanics, but of politics, the working of the four and CONCORD, etc. It is unrealistic not because it can't happen in game, but because it can't happen withing the RP logic of the world (to his understanding). Of course publicity may be well served, but he doesn't care much about it. All my comments on the IGS gollow only this dimension of the issue, as Seph doens't know that it's a game.
The other hand, OOCly, obviously it can't work. But if we don't do things because gameplay wise they are impossible, then nothing can be done in general, beyond FW (which already has its thread), and reducing all RP to that would be pretty sad. So, OOCly, go for it!
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I'm not really concerned about the IC response. Aliza's not one of the GSF Illum, just someone with connections, maybe better than most, maybe not. If I was concerned with what people thought of Aliza ICly, I would have attempted suicide a long time ago.
There does, however seem to be an undercurrent of OOC hostility. That is what I am trying to address.
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There does, however seem to be an undercurrent of OOC hostility. That is what I am trying to address.
I would caution against inviting this discussion here, as I have an idea what sort of OOC is going on. Perhaps talking to the people individually in private would be better.
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I'm not trying to incite anything. Just trying to explain.
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No OOC hostility here, can't say for the rest. :)
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It strikes me that when something ambitious appears like this (regardless of who it is) there is a tendency among a community of characters to cry foul. If one were to approach this purely from an in-character point of view, we could see this as an easy way to garner credibility by 'debunking the madman', or 'discrediting an adversary' for personal political gain. If what Katrina says is true and Ms. Vea isn't a well respected member of the capsule community, discrediting her won't have much of an impact and 'debunking' her ambitions will garner very little political capital.
The issue as I see it is the capsule community is full of very ambitious people who talk a lot about doing something yet rarely take the dedication to see it build, thrive, and grow into something worth admiring. In a way, when you make a grand proposal like this, you cannot simply 'make the proposal' and expect people to flock to your cause. You have to display some leadership ability, organization, and planning skill, to show that you have attainable goals to achieving your ultimate objective. The end cause may be a pipe dream, but if you don't have attainable objectives for people to cooperate, compete, and thrive toward something greater, then there's nothing for people to hold onto.
If your goal was to get people to discuss Sansha's Nation, you may have succeeded, but I think you might need to do more to actually set events into motion. But that's just my opinion...
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Firstly, people should know I switched to Goons for several reasons (which will not be discussed in public) but one of the key ones is that I talked to Mittani more than I talked to Zagdul, the FA executor. Aliza, nor I would not be the one setting plans into motion. She's simply opening up a dialogue with CONCORD. That said, if Falcon agreed to the terms, or most of the terms, I am confident I could set events into motion, in game. "Mittens, CCP's gonna give us the anticloaking pulse thingie that CONCORD uses. A BPO per member alliance. Oh, and a boat load of capitals and supercaps. No, not Boat. A boat load. Cripes, one of him is enough. Right, where was I? Oh yeah. All we have to do is shoot some rats in Stain and we get free shit." Well, we'd be taking space in Catch tomorrow and Stain the day after.
Mittani is not an RPer. Yet. I'm still working on that. Even if he was, the CFC is huge. An effort like the one Aliza proposed would have to be justified to member alliances. We're a coalition, not effing Band of effing Brothers. Can you imagine what the leadership meeting would sound like:
Mittani: we're going to Stain, as a coalition. We're bringing it all. GSOL and Padded helmets are already moving assets into place. Get started on your own move. Cap convoys will be friday, subcap convoys going for a week starting tomorrow.
someone else: We're going after -A-?
Mittani: no, we're doing this thing for a storyline.
someone else: Huh?
Mittani: yeah, I talked to CCP Falcon and we're working with the live events team.
someone else: why in god's name would you talk to that scrublord? And wtf is a live events team?
EVENTUALLY:
Mittani: we're also getting some bpos for modules that concord uses in highsec, able to decloak anything on the grid.
someone else: Right, rolling out caps on friday. Anything else we should know to deploy?
Rydis: Just be ready to kill all those ******g ******s.
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So your suggestion for the live event team to get big alliances involved in storylines is giving them overpowered BPOs for modules that break the game?
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Delete.
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Just a few things about EVE history.
One of the shortcomings of AURORA was that all its actors were loot pinatas.
Also it was directly connected to the old crew of EVE therefore all its storylines were known before hand by the powers that be so that they could be abused by them.
What you are suggesting is creating a custom storyline for Goonswarm where they will get extra super good loot for the whole alliance while grinding ISK.
This is the exact pitfall that the storyline team most likely will want to avoid.
Being a loot pinata and having the story known by those who take part in it before hand.
A few other tidbits from EVE history.
Covert ops cloak came from a storyline to a double-zero alliance.
Miner 2s came from a storyline to a double-zero alliance.
The whole T2 production before invention encouraged creating monopolies for modules and ships for greater profits.
Your suggestion is pretty much against the grain of the evolution of EVE in the past eight years.
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ICly, not much to add to what others already said. My character finds it ludicrous and also, is fundamentally against anything that could benefit nullsec alliances more than making them generate money for CONCORD. Aka making them truly dangerous.
OOCly, well yes, nothing of this will happen of course... Of course ? Sometimes with the CSM i'm not even sure... Anyway, I read that post like a goon troll disguised as an IC post. Maybe that's not what you meant of course, but that's how I read it. And maybe other people too.
I am probably biaised though, considering my mysanthropic views of nullsec alliances in general, and my profound dislike for Mittens that represents almost everything I despise OOCly.
Anyway yeah, I have had enough of free loot pinatas for nullsec people.
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AURORA and all kinds of Live Events by CCP personnel was completely nixed and buried alive on 2007 because Goons were kicking up a huge fuss and basically DDOS'd the forum in their hissy fit because somebody else in Internet Spaceships was allegedly getting super good loot. Not only did the RP community get deprived of it - the rest of the EVE community was deprived of live events because of Goonswarm's selfish acts. It's only very recently that Live Events are starting to come back again, and to think that CCP would - to borrow Lallara's words - create a custom storyline for Goonswarm where they will get extra super good loot for the whole alliance while grinding ISK is going to be a complete joke.
How can anyone here who claims to be part of the RP community in their good conscience join Goonswarm and flaunt their less than week-old membership in our faces?
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Again, let me reiterate, I know it's not going to happen. Glad we cleared that up.
Also, apparently Aliza telling someone ICly to go and off themselves because of their horrible posting is against the rules. Does CCP even play this game? It's not like I said they should do it IRL. (Although, having met The Wiz, I can really understand where Mittani came from there.)
And it's just the Goon kool-aid. You'll notice I left FA. I'm a Goon, not a F.A.G. Glad we cleared that up, too!
Edit:
"How can anyone here who claims to be part of the RP community in their good conscience join Goonswarm and flaunt their less than week-old membership in our faces?"
I was well involved in Goonfleet before I joined Amok. It was a pretty simple matter to join. There was a jabber ping: hey, Rydis, can we talk? Then there was some talking on mumble and then I apped and was accepted. For those that know anything about joining nullsec alliances you will understand how unusual that is. Hell, I didn't even give her my API until after I was in. Seriously, it took less than an hour.
But seriously, the hate. I don't get it? Because I like to RP I should not be able to enjoy the game in the way that I want to? And I thought I was elitist. Just wow.
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It's more that this looks like a blatant resource grab request that wants the devs to do something that ruined live events the last time they were around and that ended in scandal. It sounds ridiculous IC (which is fine, I have spent more than a few posts being ridiculous), and it looks highly dubious OOC. Your main point comes down to 'it's rhetoric for the base', which is also cool (and dear god, explains the vast majority of rp I did with ILF), but is also the sort of thing that gets regularly derided on IGS.
So, you know. There are separate reasons for both IC and OOC negative reactions to the thread, and they are also par for the course for posts of this kind.
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But seriously, the hate. I don't get it? Because I like to RP I should not be able to enjoy the game in the way that I want to? And I thought I was elitist. Just wow.
Selective reading much? I just pointed out what Goonswarm did to destroy what was one of the best and unique features in the MMO industry for roleplay (read: AURORA and live events) and you claim ignorance? I'm the one with English as my second language for crying out loud.
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Leaving numbered notes.
Again, let me reiterate, I know it's not going to happen. Glad we cleared that up.
Also, apparently Aliza telling someone ICly to go and off themselves because of their horrible posting is against the rules. Does CCP even play this game? It's not like I said they should do it IRL. (Although, having met The Wiz, I can really understand where Mittani came from there.)(*1)
And it's just the Goon kool-aid. You'll notice I left FA. I'm a Goon, not a F.A.G. Glad we cleared that up, too! (*2)
Edit:
"How can anyone here who claims to be part of the RP community in their good conscience join Goonswarm and flaunt their less than week-old membership in our faces?"
I was well involved in Goonfleet before I joined Amok. It was a pretty simple matter to join. There was a jabber ping: hey, Rydis, can we talk? Then there was some talking on mumble and then I apped and was accepted. For those that know anything about joining nullsec alliances you will understand how unusual that is. Hell, I didn't even give her my API until after I was in. Seriously, it took less than an hour. (*3)
But seriously, the hate. I don't get it? Because I like to RP I should not be able to enjoy the game in the way that I want to? And I thought I was elitist. Just wow. (*4)
1) If this Wiz guy is who I think and you agree with Mittens on how he should be treated, then I feel somewhat sorry for you. Mittens was temp-banned for his actions and while he and the Goons bitched about how unfair this was, pretty much the rest of EVE wondered why he was not perma-banned. You don't want to fall into the same trap, though if you honestly believe so, it don't help on point 2.
2) Your announcement on the IGS and here, atl to me, reeks of Goon-level trolling and quasi-IC RP-bashing. That's as simple and nice I can say it, and it will likely get my post and/or this whole tread cata'ed for being very YDIW. That might be for the best, in the long term. The terms are absurd, the attitude reeks of arrogance and condensation, and you openly refer to non-Goons as 'pubies' and treat people like they are lesser beings. Very goon-like behavior. You also claim to be on a level where you can bring this about with a few words to Mittens, basically acting like your in a position of considerable power in the Goons, and topping it off with the attitude that all the Empires need do to deal with the Sansha, is bend over to the Goons and let them deal with it, because supposedly, everyone else is incompetent and can't do it.
All of this can indeed be shortened to 'goon kool-aid'.
3) How fast you can join and who you can talk to is somewhat irrelevant next to the fact that someone who has spent a very short time in any corp/alliance is not likely to be considered a high-grade member or anyone of authority. I could go say a simple 4-word like to someone in a powerful corp in a good (supposedly) alliance and I'd be a member about as fast as you were, perhaps even minus the API check, so this proves rather little. It does not add any credibility to claims.
4) You are not being opposed because you RP, it's never been about that. You are being opposed because your toon became a member of a little-respected entity with a long and annoying history, then, less than a week in, you made a highly self-serving and absolutely absurd proposal that no-one in their right mind would agree with, and you take it badly that your proposal is taken badly. This is not being elitist, this is called crying out against a highly disliked entity making an extremely controversial move.
At any rate, you can RP whatever or whoever you like, but all actions have consequences, and yours happen to have had plenty of bad ones. You will have to deal with that.
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This thread combined with the IGS one is basically the funniest thing I've read in ages.
Aliza, you should mention how much Mittens and Rydis love you in even more of your posts.
That will totally win us over. Yeah.
(http://harlotofthearts.org/issues/issue_7/RhetoricofBees/images/CUlLU.png)
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(http://i.imgur.com/68Y26dH.gif)
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Okay, so I'll take a shot at answering this...
Putting aside IC reasoning for several moments - that's an entirely separate matter, and as you say rather more understandable - I think there are two major reasons why you might feel like you are picking up on some OOC annoyance as well.
The first is that, as people have commented on, your post raises the ugly specters of favoritism and ingame monopolies, two things that -really- rile the community up. As major issues that both doomed the previous live events team (AURORA, see above) and that are hotly debated even among the non-RP community (see: debates on the Tech monopolies, t20 incident, etc) people may very well be feeling a sort of automatic rejection of something that has lead to a lot of OOC, even OOG drama in the past.
The second has some to do with the first, but is somewhat different: Frankly, many RPers do not wish to have goonswarm intrude on our territory. Yes, we know you are vastly powerful, both economically and militarily. Yes, we know you can flood an entire region with people in a way we cannot. Yes, we know you have oodles of supercaps already, etc...
In short, yes, we know the CFC are more objectively capable than us. Frankly, however, we don't need to be reminded - considering the recent discussion on NPC kill numbers, I think it is clear that while the RP community understands that Goons are powerful, it rubs us the wrong way when it is thrown in our faces that we cannot match the (to us) faceless, mindless, zerg-ey hordes of nullsec. Furthermore, your post could be read as suggesting that this makes Goons somehow "more deserving" of special gear than actual community members, which brings us back to point one.
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Esna just expressed exactly what I was feeling in response to that/this thread. Read all of his words there.
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Okay, so I'll take a shot at answering this...
Putting aside IC reasoning for several moments - that's an entirely separate matter, and as you say rather more understandable - I think there are two major reasons why you might feel like you are picking up on some OOC annoyance as well.
The first is that, as people have commented on, your post raises the ugly specters of favoritism and ingame monopolies, two things that -really- rile the community up. As major issues that both doomed the previous live events team (AURORA, see above) and that are hotly debated even among the non-RP community (see: debates on the Tech monopolies, t20 incident, etc) people may very well be feeling a sort of automatic rejection of something that has lead to a lot of OOC, even OOG drama in the past.
The second has some to do with the first, but is somewhat different: Frankly, many RPers do not wish to have goonswarm intrude on our territory. Yes, we know you are vastly powerful, both economically and militarily. Yes, we know you can flood an entire region with people in a way we cannot. Yes, we know you have oodles of supercaps already, etc...
In short, yes, we know the CFC are more objectively capable than us. Frankly, however, we don't need to be reminded - considering the recent discussion on NPC kill numbers, I think it is clear that while the RP community understands that Goons are powerful, it rubs us the wrong way when it is thrown in our faces that we cannot match the (to us) faceless, mindless, zerg-ey hordes of nullsec. Furthermore, your post could be read as suggesting that this makes Goons somehow "more deserving" of special gear than actual community members, which brings us back to point one.
On the subject of favoritism: as long as CCP has any sort of live events team that has any meaningful interaction with the players, that is going to show up. Silas is throwing a party. Cool. Falcon, I'm assuming, is going to be attending as the Blood Raider actor. Suppose CTCS, a sani sabik corp with a much longer history throws a party and no actor attends. That's CCP's fault for getting involved. Either treat everyone equally or don't get involved at all. If the live events team is not willing to even make the slightest comment on my thread saying, "No, subsection 123.324a of the Assembly Charter prevents the transfer of any ships or technology to third parties for any reason. We're still willing to pay out bounties for the destruction of Nation ships and hope you will take advantage of that" (That took me all of five seconds to make up and I don't even work for CCCP.) then they need to be examined closely by IA. Either RP and interact with everyone that wants to RP, or don't interact at all. The only favoritism I've seen so far is from live events to the old boys club of RP. Falcon hangs out in the Summit and OOC and Red's District and a few other places. I suspect that will prove to be a huge mistake. I wasn't playing when AURORA was around. I heard about it, though, from the community members. And the same mistakes that I heard AURORA made, CCP is making even now.
So, Goons made a fuss about AURORA. Suppose that a goon talked to IA about someone from the live events team breaking certain internal rules. Suppose IA agreed and the live events team was transferred to the mail room. Who's fault would that bee? (there's a joke there, see it?) Goons, or IA or the people that broke the rules to begin with?
As far as Tech. That's CCP game design. Don't blame goons for CCP's inability to balance a game on the meta level. (Dear Fozzie, keep it up with the ships!) CCP has yet to do anything right in nullsec. The anom nerf, moon mining, dominion sov mechanics and the proposed ignoring of POSes are some of the worst ideas coming out of CCP since Tonyg wrote TEA.
T20: absolutely nothing done in secret is a good thing. When I played WoW, the guild I was in had a Blizzard executive in it. Not just a dev or a GM, but an executive. A few times, he messed with the loot tables to make an orange drop. In WoW, that's one thing. An legendary or two is not going to make any difference to the game. On a single shared server, where the only thing that matters is my ability to wage war and spread hate and discontent, that would matter. This is a PVP game. T20 acted in secret, and tried to change the very nature of the game. It would have been as if out Bliz exec had adjusted the boss's HP to one and made him unkillable to everyone else in the game for a few months while we farmed him.
"[M]any RPers do not wish to have goonswarm intrude on our territory." I would see nothing but good things happening to the RP community if Goons started RPing en mass. I have a couple of things in the works that I hope will bring more goons into RP. Hell, if I can get Mittens and no one else, I'll declare victory. All aspects in Eve should be open to all. Period. For certain members of the current RP community to feel themselves gatekeepers to the world of EVE RP is wrong on so many levels. I don't want to see the RP community destroyed, so I would beg everyone, with tears in my eyes, not to go down this path. Set a seat at the table for everyone that wants to join the feast.
"Furthermore, your post could be read as suggesting that this makes Goons somehow "more deserving" of special gear than actual community members, which brings us back to point one."
Simple economics. How big is the RP community. How big is just the GSF, not the CFC? (my proposal was not a goon one, per se, rather a coalition one.) If you are Hilmar, looking at your budget figures, which group would you say is more important to the bottom line? Which group can, literally, destroy the game. (Goons don't want to. If Goons wanted to, it would have happened after Mittani was temp-banned.) We all pay the same :15 bux: a month for this terrible internet spaceship game. Does that make goons more deserving? Maybe, maybe not. That's CCP's call. Does that mean that goons should not be ignored by live events (if Goons want to get involved) simply because our backstage post count is not as high as others? Absolutely. Again, let me reiterate. I knew when I was typing up that post, OOCly, that it was never, ever going to happen. Even if I sent Hilmar nude pics.
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I think loading your prose with not so veiled threats against the live events team, and the game in general, is going to start your proposal off on a bad foot.
The whole 'we deserve special attention because there are so many of us and we'll throw a tantrum if you don't' attitude is incredibly off putting to other people and you know it.
It doesn't build community, it's a common 'goon' attitude, and one of many many reasons RP types in general don't like 'goon' types.
And since you are an intelligent writer and do know all this, I'm not seeing it as much more than a troll thread, yes?
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For the record the CTCS did throw an event the actor did attend, and Silas did not.
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This thread combined with the IGS one is basically the funniest thing I've read in ages.
Aliza, you should mention how much Mittens and Rydis love you in even more of your posts.
That will totally win us over. Yeah.
(http://harlotofthearts.org/issues/issue_7/RhetoricofBees/images/CUlLU.png)
I was about to say: the Chinese words make no sense! Then I was like.... ohhhhhhhhhh!
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So if you don't expect it to happen, what do you expect from it?
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I think loading your prose with not so veiled threats against the live events team, and the game in general, is going to start your proposal off on a bad foot.
The whole 'we deserve special attention because there are so many of us and we'll throw a tantrum if you don't' attitude is incredibly off putting to other people and you know it.
It doesn't build community, it's a common 'goon' attitude, and one of many many reasons RP types in general don't like 'goon' types.
And since you are an intelligent writer and do know all this, I'm not seeing it as much more than a troll thread, yes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsrXc3neQ6c#t=1m47s
If I threaten someone, I'm going to have the integrity to do it openly. I like Eve Online (a truly terrible internet spaceship game). Hell, everytime I get locked away in the the hospital I go through withdraws. No shit, I've tried to get addicted to everything from nicotine to opiates and have utterly failed (when I wrote my original post, I had taken like 5 vicodin an hour before.) So far the only thing that I seem to be able to get addicted to is Eve. So no, I'm not threatening the game. If I had evidence that CCP Falcon or someone else was in violation of the rules, I would report them to IA, but there is no evidence that they had. My point was that CCP is walking a fine line with the live events team.
Goonswarm is full of players that pay the same :15 bux: a month to play the same game everyone else does. We deserve the same opportunity afforded to other players. I hope the GSF CSM delegate makes that point at the next CSM summit.
@Kat.
For there to be RP, nothing actually happens in space. TBP is full of people emoting drinking and talking. I hoped to get some decent replies (I did) and provide an interesting point of discussion. No one looked at the proposal and said: I agree with you Kuvakei is bad and we should definitely drag his corpse through the streets. CONCORD's not going to agree to all of the terms, but here's another course of action we could take: whatever the character came up with. Hell if someone from the live events had posted, "we're not ready for a full invasion of Stain yet, but in this system here there's a structure (or whatever) that if you can hold off Nation ships, we'll insert a ground team to raid the computers and get more intel." That would have been amazing. When I was sixteen, I asked my parents for a car. I pointed out that I had never been arrested, never come home drunk and didn't skip school. I didn't get the car, and I knew I would not, but we worked out something else that I wanted and was more in line with reality. That's what I expected. Someone to come back and say: no on your proposal, but here's something we can do.
A few weeks ago I was working on something for Mittens. He made his original offer, then told me to negotiate and what we would really accept. The two were not the same. I tried to make that as clear as I could ICly that we were open to negotiations, even though admitting that was actually out of character for Aliza.
@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens. And Rydis loves me.
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Best of luck with life; I really hope you get things sorted out.
As far as internet spaceships go, I'm not going to have anything to do with any of this in the future. You all have fun.
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Best of luck with life; I really hope you get things sorted out.
As far as internet spaceships go, I'm not going to have anything to do with any of this in the future. You all have fun.
I second this notion.
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Goonswarm is full of players that pay the same :15 bux: a month to play the same game everyone else does. We deserve the same opportunity afforded to other players. I hope the GSF CSM delegate makes that point at the next CSM summit.
Goonswarm pay the same 15 dollars as everyone else. They deserve to get the same game as everyone else.
They do get the same game as everyone else - EVE Online - and like everyone else, the goons will have to deal with EVE in their own way.
Asking CCP, or the RP'ers, or anyone, to get the same as everyone else, is not what you are doing. You are asking CCP, the RP'ers, and everyone, to get preferential treatment and handouts. Trolling or not, serious or not, this will never happen as blatantly as you have requested. You will have to go make it for yourself, just like everyone else. You want RP? That's fine. No-one denies it to you. We all enjoy it, usually. But if you make an absurd post/request OOC, prepare for OOC flak. If you do so IC, prepare for IC flak. RP is not without consequences and you are experiencing the result of your actions now.
If the GSF CSM delegate starts begging CCP for what is effectively favors to them and get it, CCP has killed their own game. That won't happen, because CCP is not stupid enough to let it happen.
At least that's what I chose to believe, I'm still waiting to wake up one day and find that I was very, very wrong. That day I will likely quit.
Best of luck with life; I really hope you get things sorted out.
As far as internet spaceships go, I'm not going to have anything to do with any of this in the future. You all have fun.
I second this notion.
And third'ed. I should likely not be responding even now but... ::urge to respond:: is sometimes to strong.
Good night, and take care. o7
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My point was that CCP is walking a fine line with the live events team.
CCP walks a fine line with any mechanics decision they make, be it RP or not. A lot of players apparently left a while back when the monocle and other "to pay" items were introduced (I don't know the details, I had left before), so it's clear that every decision has consequences, even for them.
Goonswarm is full of players that pay the same :15 bux: a month to play the same game everyone else does. We deserve the same opportunity afforded to other players.
I agree. You can check IGS and notice some threads have a dev actor posting, some don't. Do all threads deserve a post? Well, if all get treated equally in absolut terms, then yes, and it's going to be madness. Some things don't deserve reply, if I post "Amarr has conquered the universe, all bow to the Empress", there's not going to be a CCP reply to it, and probably a lot of (deserved) trolling. You didn't go that far, but you did walk that same path.
No one looked at the proposal and said: I agree with you Kuvakei is bad and we should definitely drag his corpse through the streets. CONCORD's not going to agree to all of the terms, but here's another course of action we could take: whatever the character came up with.
Maybe no one actually agrees. Sepherim ICly doesn't consider the Nation as dangerous as the Minmatarr or the Blood Raiders, for example. And certainly doesn't believe any 0.0 alliance should get anything out of CONCORD as they're little more than glorified pirates (exception for CVA, which is Reclaiming in God's name). Maybe others have other reasons not to want this proposal to go forward. Why should anyone agree that CONCORD give you lots of nice toys and a plot so you can become cooler, richer, etc? And, as I say, all this ICly.
Hell if someone from the live events had posted, "we're not ready for a full invasion of Stain yet, but in this system here there's a structure (or whatever) that if you can hold off Nation ships, we'll insert a ground team to raid the computers and get more intel." That would have been amazing. When I was sixteen, I asked my parents for a car. I pointed out that I had never been arrested, never come home drunk and didn't skip school. I didn't get the car, and I knew I would not, but we worked out something else that I wanted and was more in line with reality. That's what I expected. Someone to come back and say: no on your proposal, but here's something we can do.
Why should they? When you say "hey, I want the moon" probably people are going to say "fuck off". If you say "I want something a bit over what is reasonable" maybe people are going to offer "something reasonable". Your original proposal was asking for the moon. To start with, you asked for a whole game mechanic to be created for you (the possibility to destroy planets), lots of in-game exclusive benefits (including an item to be able to fool a stablished game mechanic as is cloaking), etc. This was not near reasonable at all, the only point to negotiate would have been, "no to everything, let's start from scratch with what can be done". And the silence you got from CCP goes in that direction.
To negotiate you have to offer something the other party is interested in, and a reasonable price for it. You did not offer the first (I don't think CCP is interested in killing the Sanshas) nor the second, so you got no negotiation at all. I find nothing surprising in it.
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Why should they? When you say "hey, I want the moon" probably people are going to say "fuck off". If you say "I want something a bit over what is reasonable" maybe people are going to offer "something reasonable". Your original proposal was asking for the moon. To start with, you asked for a whole game mechanic to be created for you (the possibility to destroy planets), lots of in-game exclusive benefits (including an item to be able to fool a established game mechanic as is cloaking), etc. This was not near reasonable at all, the only point to negotiate would have been, "no to everything, let's start from scratch with what can be done". And the silence you got from CCP goes in that direction.
To negotiate you have to offer something the other party is interested in, and a reasonable price for it. You did not offer the first (I don't think CCP is interested in killing the Sanshas) nor the second, so you got no negotiation at all. I find nothing surprising in it.
You're mixing IC and OOC here, hun. CCP has no interest in killing Nation. CONCORD does.
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You are right, I did mix both things.
Still, it's not in CONCORDs mission to destroy the Nation, CONCORD is a defensive organization, if no law is broken (understanding law as pewpew in space, mostly, as the Amatarr event just proved) they won't act.
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You are right, I did mix both things.
Still, it's not in CONCORDs mission to destroy the Nation, CONCORD is a defensive organization, if no law is broken (understanding law as pewpew in space, mostly, as the Amatarr event just proved) they won't act.
I would ask, why in that case do they pay out isk and lp for incursions in null sec space. Specifically nullsec space owned by alliances.
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I mean actively, they do many more things than prevent the law breaking in space (control communications, for example). But they still retain their ressources on the defensive.
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@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens.
Does Mittens know this?
Please tell me more about the Mittens/Vea slashfiction you've been writing in your head. :allears:
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@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens.
Does Mittens know this?
Please tell me more about the Mittens/Vea slashfiction you've been writing in your head. :allears:
Yes. He does.
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@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens.
Does Mittens know this?
Please tell me more about the Mittens/Vea slashfiction you've been writing in your head. :allears:
Yes. He does.
(http://picardfacepalm.com/picard-facepalm-hotlink.jpg)
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Forgive me my patronizing, but your posts raise so many red flags that I think continueing this discussion does more harm than good to yourself.
I suggest getting your life in balance again and I wish you good luck with it.
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I read the first page of the thread when it was new, and it left me kind of conflicted whether I should reply or not. Considering the discussion in this page going already to erotic the Mittani fanfiction, I assume that the worst of RABBLERABBLERABBLE is already past.
So, we could divide the roleplaying in EVE to different levels. There's personal (or rather, character) level roleplaying. There's corporate roleplaying. Alliance roleplaying. In the case of Goonswarm, the question would be, how do powerblocks interacts with the NPC factions? In the CSM summit notes, Seleene mentioned that he wanted to take the Pure Blind station from Mordu's Legion Command, believing that the late MC (and now, Pandemic Legion) is a much more powerful entity than Mordu's. This might not be the exactly correct way, but they are powerful even if I believe that none does have the simple amount of raw resources even the pirate factions have, and are thus not anywhere near the big four.
Rather appropriately, I assume that one of the things discussed is rewards: the old arcs were at times seen as a way of distributing loot to your friends' player accounts. On the other hand, I seem to recall that ASCN once tried to work things out with the Angel Cartel, but when the rewards offered "were not good enough", they quit. The reward issue can be solved a few different ways. One thing is vanity rewards, items that aren't really that useful but have some kind of a rarity value (such as tournament medals). An alternative would be fame/infamy, a chance to enter the fiction.
To freely quote an answer given by Oveur to a Goon in an old fanfest, would the powerblocks be happy by being rewarded by a big dick? (The original question was about the "cost effectiveness" of titans. This question would be about the cost effectiveness of roleplaying arcs. Unlike titans, I find it unlikely that RP arcs could be mass produced to push them into a breaking point, since the limiting factor in roleplaying isn't ISK but time, and AFAIK you can't farm or scam more time for yourself.)
This matter is somewhat complicated, as CCP would probably be obliged to allow others to enter existing arcs. Therefore, there would not be a Goonswarm arc. There might be a Gurista/Angel arc with elements suitable for powerblocks. Assume Goons/CFC declare for Guristas. What if Black Legion / Venal residents declare for Guristas, too? And the NPC requests joint ops? Or Test/HBC/other frienemies declare for Serpentis (and thus, Angels) and you get to shoot a blue for the memory of Vile Rat?
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On a second thought
(http://i.imgur.com/l2sJi.gif)
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@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens.
(http://i.imgur.com/rS3ge.gif)
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(http://i.imgur.com/FMBIxbu.gif)
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(http://i.imgur.com/zsghQ.gif)
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(http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/celebrity-pictures-hilton-attention-whore.jpg)
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oo oo I have one for that too! :D
(http://i.imgur.com/O4lRW.gif)
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(http://i.imgur.com/FVrmcSi.gif)
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(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/ABANDON_13e6ad_2491545.gif)
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This thread started off good and has now transcended to hilarious.
10/10, would do again.
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(http://image.legios.org/var/albums/random/this-thread-delivers_dhl.jpg?m=1352641832)
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
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(http://i.imgur.com/KJBys.gif)
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@Kala. Icly, Aliza is the only one to have slept with Mittens.
I would bet huge amounts of ISK that this isn’t actually the case. Specifically the bit about being the only one.
If we want to salvage the thread a little, we can ponder the fact that Concord doesn’t actually want Sansha’s Nation destroyed, they need enemies in order to keep justifying their existence.
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(http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/143000/143333_Serious_cat_is_not_amused..jpg)
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
Says the goon.
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNyOO0kdHuiRUnkOnp29HDjolsn4AdF7G_tvx9hlJbq1JCuAdY5FID10OU)
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"Well, that escalated quickly."
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I don't know that the live events people (there's only about two people afaik) have the time to go through the IGS and look for things speculatively. Perhaps a mail to a relevant event actor, to notify them that there's something, would be useful.
iirc, Falcon said the event actors get maybe 100 evemails each day? so just dealing with those is probably enough time spent that browsing forums without looking at something highlighted, isn't really an option.
Incentives for people to get involved ?
Umm, for Goonswarm, I was under the impression that historically, the following were incentives for Goonswarm:
1. Because they can.
2. Because it's there.
3. Because it's funny.
I'm not sure about incentives. Of course, for live events, there is the possibility of news articles, and influencing details of the storyline, but Goonswarm gets in the news as it is.
Incentives of stuff is in itself problematic, in that it takes away from player involvement. E.g. 100 titans spawned by GM intervention, means 100 titans not built by players, not defended during construction, and so on.
It is unlikely that it would ever be agreed to destroy Sansha's Nation and stop the incursions, as that would mean to end a thing that was the subject of an entire expansion. It is unlikely for the same reasons, that FW will ever reach a resolution.
Unique items as rewards are unlikely, because of how that will be seen by some elements, the whole "devgoons favouring goons" thing.
And for NPCs to defend the space for the duration, is also a very large intervention in the sandbox. It again takes away player involvement.
So, things are unlikely to happen.
but to get a "We have ~other plans~ for Nation" response, I'd recommend contacting the CONCORD actor with a mail, highlighting the topic.
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
Says the goon.
*IMAGE*
Oooh, burn.
I'm honestly rather surprised the tread has not been locked a long time ago, actually. Either no-one has noticed this (a great feat, I'd say) or it has not yet devolved to be so bad it needs handling.
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Personally, I think this is the best thread on backstage at the moment and will be dissapointed when it is inevitably locked. :roll:
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
I have to ask if you are self-aware, or if you need to undergo the Turing Test. Nobody is already taking you seriously by this point, and personally, I don't even recognize you as part of the RP community.
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
Says the goon.
*IMAGE*
Oooh, burn.
I'm honestly rather surprised the tread has not been locked a long time ago, actually. Either no-one has noticed this (a great feat, I'd say) or it has not yet devolved to be so bad it needs handling.
no one wants it locked, so it hasn't been reported. The first couple pages were actual discussion before it got interesting.
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Just throwing my two deci-ISK in here before things go completely off the rails...
A lot of backlash from the community as a whole has more or less been addressed at this point. But something did occur to me while reading.
You say you want CONCORD to negotiate the terms, and even admit that as stated they're pretty silly. But just from an in-universe point of view, I don't really see a reason for them to do much of that. Take 'Burn Jita' for example. Imagine for a moment that CONCORD isn't an NPC entity, but rather an organization like the Swarm. Every one of those police cruisers or battleships is another person, and the whole organization is based on the idea of keeping the peace and maintaining security status. And then out comes the Swarm to hit everything in targeting distance with a big stick, in blatant disregard for CONCORD authority and rules. And now, said Goons throw down a proposal to tackle this great enemy, but only if they get a huge list of completely unreasonable demands, and they're saying they'll do it by turning an entire region into a wasteland, keeping in mind that it's not even a guarantee that such a plan would actually solve the problem.
Ultimately, if CONCORD says anything other than an officially worded "Fuck off", I will be surprised.
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:cripes: I thought for a moment I had accidentally logged into 4chan. Seriously, a silly meme picture is worth negative one hundred words.
I have to ask if you are self-aware, or if you need to undergo the Turing Test. Nobody is already taking you seriously by this point, and personally, I don't even recognize you as part of the RP community.
[in her best Keith Olberman voice]:
With all due respect, sir, you should check your hatred at the door. In this forum, we should at least strive for a modicum of civility, sir. We're all posting here and having fun, but you, sir, seem to be taking everything to heart. I would suggest that you take a stiff drink, sir, and calm down. Really, there is nothing to get upset over here, sir; just take a deep breath.
As to the rest, ICly, Aliza has the Goonswarm sense of A; superiority, B: contempt for the rest of the cluster. She doesn't just think she's better than the rest, she knows it. And she holds pretty much everyone that's not blue in abject contempt. Again, this is all ICly. OOCly I would happily share a drink with any of you. (Certain terms and conditions apply. Applies to well qualified players only. Anyone sharing a drink must refer to me as, "oh great Goon" and speak only of and about themselves in the third person. Players must not wear purple while sharing a drink. Players must pay for my drink. In addition, players must order an appetizer. Players may not speak ill of the Mittani in the course of sharing a drink. Players must get an SA account and post what an amazing time they had after drinks are shared. Lastly, players agree to join CONDI, after a simple background check a security deposit of no less than 500m should be placed in the Amok. corp wallet. Assets should be transferred to my neutral hauling alt in Jita. Finally, players must dye their hair blonde before meeting for drinks.)
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And I assume at this point you actually think your pretty funny.
Alternatively you just keep being condescending and arrogant like a good little goon.
WTB: Meme pictures of appropriate nature when dealing with goon-like behavior.
@ Tread: It may have been an entertaining read, but I at least feel like some of these posts and the tune of the whole tread somehow feel very un-Backstagey, as such I've been repeatedly assuming the tread would be locked the very next time I come by. I keep being surprised, strangely.
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As to the rest, ICly, Aliza has the Goonswarm sense of A; superiority, B: contempt for the rest of the cluster. She doesn't just think she's better than the rest, she knows it. And she holds pretty much everyone that's not blue in abject contempt. Again, this is all ICly.
Since when are Goons arrogant shitheads IC? Last I checked Goonswarm is built on the principle that they are all terrible individually but successful in numbers. Maybe that's the OOC stance, I haven't seen much distinction. The handful of them that actually have meaningful characters IC haven't seemed to fit your description.
Either way, the arrogance seems much more intrinsic to your character, less so to Goonswarm. Trying to play it off as 'just being a goon' is a bit absurd, given how little time she's been there, unless getting screwed by mittens pumped up her/your ego that fast.
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I'm honestly rather surprised the tread has not been locked a long time ago, actually. Either no-one has noticed this (a great feat, I'd say) or it has not yet devolved to be so bad it needs handling.
@ Tread: It may have been an entertaining read, but I at least feel like some of these posts and the tune of the whole tread somehow feel very un-Backstagey, as such I've been repeatedly assuming the tread would be locked the very next time I come by. I keep being surprised, strangely.
Hi. I'm on vacation in Yellowstone this week, and am at my computer maybe 2 hours out of the entire day (literally, 15 minutes after breakfast before going out and getting on the snowmobiles, and an hour and a half before/after dinner or before bed). I was hoping not to have to step in and deal with this kind of utter bullshit while I was out, but I guess I forgot that Silver has a job and tends not to get opportunities to check the forum during the day.
The thread would've been locked ages ago otherwise, and as it stands I'm going to be strongly suggesting that a number of people who contributed to the problem instead of reporting posts/the thread and not posting be given formal warnings and/or short-term bans in the cases of people who have already had their warnings for this crap.
Pretty much everyone who's posted in this thread should know better.