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[Katrina Oniseki]

I still think that's wishful thinking in an effort to make the Caldari out to be the Mirror-Universe "Terran Empire" from Star Trek where Mister Spock is always plotting to kill Kirk.

Sorry, but I find the idea that Caldari are uncaring bastards by a rule to be ridiculous, just like I find the idea that Amarr are mustache twirling slaver-villains to be ridiculous.

EDIT: Also... Kinship does not equal Minmatar. Even the Amarr have a sense of kinship through their common religion, and Gallente a sense of kinship through more western concepts. The Caldari certainly can have a sense of kinship based on national and racial identity without being 'Minmatar'.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The concept you have to get your head around is 'coopertition'.

The idea that a society could manage to struggle even to the stage of tribes or bands without the ability to extend the concept of kinship beyond the immediate family is, frankly, laughable in sociological terms.

The Caldari are a faction that was founded in a struggle for existence. The idea that they could have succeeded as  they have whilst acting in the way you suggest is just not feasible.

[Gaven Lok ri]

These discussions get to one of my little pet peeves about the EVE background.

The balance of power is... too nebulous and lacks a practical understanding of what the ramifications for the descriptions of the navies they throw out mean.

It seems to me that it wouldn't be that impossible to create a document with the different Empire's orders of battle and total tonnage. If you had such a document you could then go in and keep it updated... and start telling war stories that actually sound believable.

They need to do the same with defensive measures. What exactly are the hurdles for an invasion into Empire space?

Dreadnaught spawning In game battles are silly, unless they find a way to make them appropriately scaled then the news story versions of the battles are better.

On another note: Its pretty clear from the ship descriptions on the new ships that the Amarr Empire has been modernizing in a big way after Jamyl.

[Katrina Oniseki]

It seems to me that it wouldn't be that impossible to create a document with the different Empire's orders of battle and total tonnage. If you had such a document you could then go in and keep it updated... and start telling war stories that actually sound believable.

I would pay money for this. I want posters on my wall of it.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

These discussions get to one of my little pet peeves about the EVE background.

The balance of power is... too nebulous and lacks a practical understanding of what the ramifications for the descriptions of the navies they throw out mean.

It seems to me that it wouldn't be that impossible to create a document with the different Empire's orders of battle and total tonnage. If you had such a document you could then go in and keep it updated... and start telling war stories that actually sound believable.

They need to do the same with defensive measures. What exactly are the hurdles for an invasion into Empire space?

Dreadnaught spawning In game battles are silly, unless they find a way to make them appropriately scaled then the news story versions of the battles are better.

On another note: Its pretty clear from the ship descriptions on the new ships that the Amarr Empire has been modernizing in a big way after Jamyl.

Speaking as a game designer, I would murder a community manager who tried  to make this happen.

I agree it would be AWESOME for the RP community but it would mean that every ship lost ingame would have ramifications - especially the ones lost in the endless faction missions that highseccers run.

[Gaven Lok ri]

It would mean that... and I think thats a good thing. Everything you do should have ramifications.

Edit: To scale back the idea a bit... at the very least there need to be a list of fleet formations with rough strength levels and deployment areas for each empire.

That way when there is a battle event  it is between say "The Amarr  Seventh and Tenth Fleets" and the "Matari Third Fleet" rather than generic things and there is a clear idea of how much each empire has avaliable for offense/defense.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Well, at least pointing out the formations and divisions for each Navy... I'd like to see that.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Heh, I was just editing my post to say exactly that

[Gesakaarin]

I think this topic is a bit of a derailment and would deserve its own thread.

Gesakaarin argues that people go too far with the sense of kinship and 'rose tinted glasses'. I respect his opinion as his own, but I disagree to an extent.

I think Gesakaarin's theory overcompensates and goes too far in the opposite grimdark and dystopia direction, and doesn't allow for healthy family units or cross sub-factional friendships. I can't reconcile that into a functioning society that isn't wildly inept in basic interpersonal relations, or the ability to work together in an interstellar war against a foreign power. Maybe that's my "western viewpoints", but I honestly can't understand how that would work over the long term as a civilization.

That said, I think Gesakaarin is on to something here with what he's getting at, but I think the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm not sure what's grimdark about the concept that the State appears to be presented as an extremely competitive corporate society where people can identify just as strongly as being, "Lai Dai" or "CBD" or indeed any other Mega just as much as being Caldari or a citizen of the State. What I am trying to point out is that to me, Caldari nationalism is framed entirely on the need for unified action and common defence against external factors and threats. This differs from how it appears domestically and internally in the State, where while there may be a conception of being Caldari there also exists a self-identification as being a citizen of, and loyal to a Megacorporation.

This to me is the dichotomy of the Caldari, in which there are differences in attitudes depending on the situation: You put Caldari in a room with other foreigners and they'll probably congregate towards each other because it's Caldari versus foreigners - we're the same and they're different. You put Caldari in a room alone together and they'll probably start congregating towards others of the same Megacorp. affiliations - again, we're the same and they're different.

I don't find the State as being a place where it's Caldari having a strong identity of themselves wholly as a singular people all working towards a common goal -- that's the ideal. The reality is that it's a State where there exists strong loyalties historically, traditionally, culturally and through family ties to corporations that are in constant competition with each other under a capitalist system. If this wasn't the case:

- Then why would the Caldari Business Tribunal exist if not to seek to arbitrate disputes among powerful corporations?
- Why do the Megacorporations have their own private fleets and armies whose sole purpose is to defend their assets and interests primarily against other Megacorporations?
- Why do there exist corporate political blocs if it's not the Megacorporations that are the sole locus of power in the State?
- Why did Lai Dai and SuVee almost get into an all out shooting war with each other once upon a time if they weren't willing to use force if they had to achieve what they wanted?

Now this doesn't mean that Caldari individually, or Megacorps. are willing to work together. I do however think that the motivations behind working together are based on concepts of pragmatism and mutual advantage more than anything else along corporate lines and the recognition that outright, direct conflict would weaken themselves against the common external threats they believe they face as a State.

[orange]

- Why did Lai Dai and SuVee almost get into an all out shooting war with each other once upon a time if they weren't willing to use force if they had to achieve what they wanted?

Depending on how you interpret some events, it was a shooting war, just not one in which the attackers carried Lai Dai or SuVee identification.

To scale back the idea a bit... at the very least there need to be a list of fleet formations with rough strength levels and deployment areas for each empire.

That way when there is a battle event  it is between say "The Amarr  Seventh and Tenth Fleets" and the "Matari Third Fleet" rather than generic things and there is a clear idea of how much each empire has avaliable for offense/defense.

Careful or it will become a community project...

[Pieter Tuulinen]

No arguments there, Veik - after all, I did say that the Caldari view things in concentric bands of in/out. The outermost band is Caldari, people don't start being Kirjuun until they're in the same Mega.

[Lyn Farel]

I still think that's wishful thinking in an effort to make the Caldari out to be the Mirror-Universe "Terran Empire" from Star Trek where Mister Spock is always plotting to kill Kirk.

Sorry, but I find the idea that Caldari are uncaring bastards by a rule to be ridiculous, just like I find the idea that Amarr are mustache twirling slaver-villains to be ridiculous.

EDIT: Also... Kinship does not equal Minmatar. Even the Amarr have a sense of kinship through their common religion, and Gallente a sense of kinship through more western concepts. The Caldari certainly can have a sense of kinship based on national and racial identity without being 'Minmatar'.

People seem to assume that I somehow hold the opposite view. As much as I am cautious when taking literally what the PF says about Minmatar and how they care so much for their enslaved kin, since I believe that most Minmatar, being human like anyone, have other things to care of than thinking to a kin they lost generations ago and living far far away, it is still PF and can be explained because their culture has always been completely based around the concept of kinship and tribes.

And I am no Star Trek fan so I know very little of that universe, so not really understanding the analogy, sadly 

The concept you have to get your head around is 'coopertition'.

The idea that a society could manage to struggle even to the stage of tribes or bands without the ability to extend the concept of kinship beyond the immediate family is, frankly, laughable in sociological terms.

The Caldari are a faction that was founded in a struggle for existence. The idea that they could have succeeded as  they have whilst acting in the way you suggest is just not feasible.

I do think that what the Caldari strongly care for is not their kin, it is their society, their culture, and the well being of the collective. I do not see what is "frankly laughable". You do not need to care for your kin when survival is involved. It can even become quite the contrary (not saying it is in the case of the Caldari though).

You only have to care for your community and what is harmful to it, but I would clearly expect the average individual being extremely cautious and protective even when dealing with his "kin". When resources are rare, you do not live in a happy world where everyone love their kin.

Yes, coopertition. They cooperated not out of love or care for their kin, but out of necessity. I would rather argue that it is your view, that is not really believable to me. vOv



Overall from experience since I started playing, I have noticed the Caldari and the Minmatar interpretation among players to shift slowly toward each other. It's not said as an attack or a YDIW (even if it does not really make me happy, whats the point to have Minmatar cyberpunks and Minmatar corporatists ?).

The Caldari are now seen very caring for their kin when the Minmatar are now also seen very caring for the collective, which I believe to be biased and quite false as well : the latter is a Caldari trait, the Minmatar do not care for the collective more than anyone considering their strong emphasis on freedom and individuality, they just do their duty to their tribe and kin when asked, and do whatever they like besides. I would argue that the Caldari feel directly threatened when their culture and society is threatened, when the Minmatar will feel threatened when it's their very blood.

[Lyn Farel]

It would mean that... and I think thats a good thing. Everything you do should have ramifications.

Edit: To scale back the idea a bit... at the very least there need to be a list of fleet formations with rough strength levels and deployment areas for each empire.

That way when there is a battle event  it is between say "The Amarr  Seventh and Tenth Fleets" and the "Matari Third Fleet" rather than generic things and there is a clear idea of how much each empire has avaliable for offense/defense.

Yeah I think it might be better.

Maybe i'm wrong but I have always felt that CCP actually wanted to remain quite nebulous on prime fiction, to allow different interpretations and so, bolster RP. I mean, if everything is written in details in the canon, then it might very well seriously harm players to argue ICly about what is true, or false, and what is their take on this or that.

So giving the full numbers and capabilities, maybe not, but getting a few more details on what are the doctrines, what kind of fleet comp they favor or use, could be well appreciated.

[Keirym Thara]

I disagree, respectfully.  I believe that game designers have their hands full with balance and performance issues, let alone having to spend cycles and meetings on "story fluff".  Let's face it.  They hire writers for this segment of the design of the product, and leave them to it.  Nary do their paths cross. 

Writers get the devblogs like we do (long before however), sit the feature/change progress report meetings, then sit back and try to write something fictional around it.  I do not believe the devs "care" about the story when they are writing code.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Surprised by this discussion, I've been doing some reading around it into the past and was surprised to discover that it's a perennial discussion and one in which debate seems to make very little impact on either parties views.

So, rather than launch another page of debating points which will be written off as 'my opinion and wrong' I think I'll bow out, simply saying that my opinion is based upon research that I've done, which I feel is valid and that I've not read anything here to change my mind.