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[Pieter Tuulinen]

Total size.

This.  But its deeper than that.

The Caldari system of living emphasizes efficiency and "merit", to the exclusion of things like kinship and charity.  If you cant hack the system, youre gone.

And given that the Caldari state has quite a bit of homeless people, it stands to reason it happens quite often.  Logic would dictate that this would have to happen quite frequently, a Meritocracy fails to mean anything if a high majority of the population is found to be meritorious. I think the reason that the Caldari state has population problems is inherent in their traditions of disowning those who fall on the wrong end of whatever bell curve the Powers That Be are using to measure merit.

Growth and inclusiveness are often enemies of efficiency. Cant grow your population if you're constantly kicking out a good portion of your population.

I don't see anything in PF that suggests that Caldari society doesn't have kinship and charity - there's a STRONG motivation within Caldari society to sacrifice for your kirjuun and your company.

Moreover, with more of an emphasis on providing for everyone and less of an emphasis on individual commercialism and creature comforts, things like appropriate housing, medical services etc are covered centrally. This means it's very hard for individual families to screw up and vanish through the cracks without a sustained effort.

Also it generally ISN'T the powers that be that decide what 'merit' is. A lot of that shit is done by social group-think and not by top-down fiat. Otherwise the lower rungs simply form an underclass that doesn't play by the executives rules - as in Victorian England, for example, where the cities stayed about a century behind in terms of ethics and the urban underclass developed an entire sub-culture.

Anyway, the major downside of the Caldari Military machine is numbers - can't afford to play too aggressively. And also the poor quality of their ground troops - you can defend space with a fleet, but if you want to run aggressive operations you need a good ground force too. See the Amarr Military.

[Gesakaarin]

And given that the Caldari state has quite a bit of homeless people, it stands to reason it happens quite often.  Logic would dictate that this would have to happen quite frequently, a Meritocracy fails to mean anything if a high majority of the population is found to be meritorious. I think the reason that the Caldari state has population problems is inherent in their traditions of disowning those who fall on the wrong end of whatever bell curve the Powers That Be are using to measure merit.

I think the vision of the Caldari State being a society of wholly selfish Executive "Powers that Be" playing corporate tyrants over their own domains is a flawed one when one considers the rise and fall of Heth: He rose to power due to the perception of a failure in leadership in corporate leadership and management and he fell due to the perception that he failed in his own leadership responsibilities. The Powers That Be most at play in the State is the work of Caldari conformity pressures to adhere to the cultural values of putting the community before the individual; being accountable; and being responsible for actions.

That being said, Caldari also appear to value the concept that everyone stands on their own two feet and achieve success or failure on their own. As such, if you do manage to end up at the bottom of the ladder then the prevailing opinion is going to be that it's not the ladder's fault for being there but the individual's failure to climb it.

[Silas Vitalia]

And given that the Caldari state has quite a bit of homeless people, it stands to reason it happens quite often.  Logic would dictate that this would have to happen quite frequently, a Meritocracy fails to mean anything if a high majority of the population is found to be meritorious. I think the reason that the Caldari state has population problems is inherent in their traditions of disowning those who fall on the wrong end of whatever bell curve the Powers That Be are using to measure merit.

I think the vision of the Caldari State being a society of wholly selfish Executive "Powers that Be" playing corporate tyrants over their own domains is a flawed one when one considers the rise and fall of Heth: He rose to power due to the perception of a failure in leadership in corporate leadership and management and he fell due to the perception that he failed in his own leadership responsibilities. The Powers That Be most at play in the State is the work of Caldari conformity pressures to adhere to the cultural values of putting the community before the individual; being accountable; and being responsible for actions.

That being said, Caldari also appear to value the concept that everyone stands on their own two feet and achieve success or failure on their own. As such, if you do manage to end up at the bottom of the ladder then the prevailing opinion is going to be that it's not the ladder's fault for being there but the individual's failure to climb it.

I'd be wary of applying any plot or PF characters from that.... era.... towards any of the factions and how we interpret them.   

Heth was a thing that happened, but it's a PF blip that will soon be forgotten and I don't think reflects the State, or the majority of State fiction.

 

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Heiian predates Heth by quite a length of time.

[Gesakaarin]

And given that the Caldari state has quite a bit of homeless people, it stands to reason it happens quite often.  Logic would dictate that this would have to happen quite frequently, a Meritocracy fails to mean anything if a high majority of the population is found to be meritorious. I think the reason that the Caldari state has population problems is inherent in their traditions of disowning those who fall on the wrong end of whatever bell curve the Powers That Be are using to measure merit.

I think the vision of the Caldari State being a society of wholly selfish Executive "Powers that Be" playing corporate tyrants over their own domains is a flawed one when one considers the rise and fall of Heth: He rose to power due to the perception of a failure in leadership in corporate leadership and management and he fell due to the perception that he failed in his own leadership responsibilities. The Powers That Be most at play in the State is the work of Caldari conformity pressures to adhere to the cultural values of putting the community before the individual; being accountable; and being responsible for actions.

That being said, Caldari also appear to value the concept that everyone stands on their own two feet and achieve success or failure on their own. As such, if you do manage to end up at the bottom of the ladder then the prevailing opinion is going to be that it's not the ladder's fault for being there but the individual's failure to climb it.

I'd be wary of applying any plot or PF characters from that.... era.... towards any of the factions and how we interpret them.   

Heth was a thing that happened, but it's a PF blip that will soon be forgotten and I don't think reflects the State, or the majority of State fiction.

 

I used Heth to illustrate a point in that leaders in the State are held to a degree of accountability in their positions. Heth rose to power by promoting a perception that corporate executives and leaders were not fulfilling their responsibilities and he fell because of the wide-spread perception that he was not doing his. What it boils down to for me is that the concept of, "Saving face" in the State applies to practically every Caldari in the State from the CEO of the Megas to the guys mopping the floors. You don't read about Haatakan Oiritsuu or some other Mega CEO going out in public flaunting their wealth and extravagance because they would lose face in public because the expectations would that they would be using that wealth for the, "Greater Good," or by at the very least showing a degree of restraint or austerity in public. Doing so doesn't even have to be out of idealism for a top-level Executive but rather the cynical knowledge that if they, "Lose face" in public then they risk losing their position and authority either from an ambitious subordinate or dissent in the ranks.

Tibus Heth losing face in public due it becoming known that he forced the tea on Admiral Yanala and then being thrown out because his support evaporated to me is just an example of how any Caldari leader, irrespective of their position, is always under scrutiny and their every action, thought and decision evaluated and judged by those that they lead in the State.

Rather my thoughts on what happens in the State might be simply generalized as:

- It is a capitalist society, as such there is always going to be an unequal distribution of wealth and resources.
- Capitalism is accepted by Caldari because it appeals to certain aspects of social darwinism and survivalism in their culture due to the harsh environment of their homeworld and is maintained due to their staunch traditionalism.
- Rising to the top and being granted the wealth it brings is a sign of strength in having defeated your rivals through talent and ability -- having strong and competent leadership is desired.
- Falling to the bottom in the State and becoming, "Disassociated" primarily due to unemployment with a corporation is seen as a weakness and carries with it the social stigmas that one has no desirable traits, cannot contribute to society, and thus find re-employment difficult or impossible.
- Caldari corporations as institutions and as a system are maintained and supported by their employees because no-one wants to end up being unemployed in the State.
- Caldari have a very strong sense of family and community to the point that it's not seen as inherently wrong to do whatever you can for your kin and the communities/associations you belong to -- to the point that being successful and using your success to found a familial dynasty such as the Seituoda or Hyasyoda is not seen as objectional.
- The State cannot be truly meritocratic in that everyone gets play on a truly even and fair playing field because the importance placed on family means that powerful family dynasties can grow and develop to exert a great amount of influence in corporate life due to their concentration of wealth, shares and contacts.

[Lyn Farel]

I have seen a lot of Minmatar endemic values applied to caldari more and more over the years.

I do not think that the Caldari care more than the average for their kirjuun. They care for the entity and the community. They care for the State and the Caldari, and loathe the individualist aspect of the Federation. That doesn"t mean that they suddenly love their kirjuun. I quite disagree with that vision of the State.

[Keirym Thara]

My little reply/opinion would be to say that I envision fuedal Japanese when I consider the Caldari mindset on honor, military and loyalty.

[Gesakaarin]

I have seen a lot of Minmatar endemic values applied to caldari more and more over the years.

I do not think that the Caldari care more than the average for their kirjuun. They care for the entity and the community. They care for the State and the Caldari, and loathe the individualist aspect of the Federation. That doesn"t mean that they suddenly love their kirjuun. I quite disagree with that vision of the State.

I always thought for a Caldari the concept is, "I care little if you love me, so long as you respect me."

If people want to romanticize Heiian or whatever else with the Caldari with rose-tinted glasses then that's concern. My own enjoyment in playing a Caldari is trying to explore and understand a person who is the product of a society and culture whose underlying core philosophy is: The strong prevail; the weak will perish. I enjoy the coldness, the bleakness and the harshness of Caldari society where an individual is expected to earn their own place, where the concepts of community derive from a utilitarian need to submit to the collective will through a system of mutual advantage and obligation and where the, "Greater Good" translates to, "Being stronger than others who might threaten my own interests" which leads to a particularly driven and competitive people.

I would agree though, I do not think the Caldari have a sense of kinship in that, "We're all Caldari, let's just get along guys," Because that identification seems to be based upon the notion of, "We're all Caldari against everyone else who isn't Caldari." Whereas internally within the State the identification can become, "I am Caldari, yes, but I am also a citizen of my Megacorp. If you are not also a citizen of my Mega or allied with us, then you are against us. If you are against us, then you are a threat to my own interests."

That's my own basic view on the matter and I'm sure others vary. However, if you're trying to say Caldari players/characters have been trying to deny aspects of the State and its society that might be seen as uncomfortable or unappealing then yes, you might be right.

[Lyn Farel]

Exactly, that's my take on the matter as well.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I think this topic is a bit of a derailment and would deserve its own thread.

Gesakaarin argues that people go too far with the sense of kinship and 'rose tinted glasses'. I respect his opinion as his own, but I disagree to an extent.

I think Gesakaarin's theory overcompensates and goes too far in the opposite grimdark and dystopia direction, and doesn't allow for healthy family units or cross sub-factional friendships. I can't reconcile that into a functioning society that isn't wildly inept in basic interpersonal relations, or the ability to work together in an interstellar war against a foreign power. Maybe that's my "western viewpoints", but I honestly can't understand how that would work over the long term as a civilization.

That said, I think Gesakaarin is on to something here with what he's getting at, but I think the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes I do believe that the average Caldari is still human, as cheesy as it sounds said like that.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Keep in mind that I am interpreting Gesa's post in conjunction with what I've seen of Veikitamo's and Havaima's portrayal IC, and previous conversations with the player OOC.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I have seen a lot of Minmatar endemic values applied to caldari more and more over the years.

I do not think that the Caldari care more than the average for their kirjuun. They care for the entity and the community. They care for the State and the Caldari, and loathe the individualist aspect of the Federation. That doesn"t mean that they suddenly love their kirjuun. I quite disagree with that vision of the State.

Well, that's your privilige. Doesn't mean you're right.

Caldari culture is very informed by their homeworld. Tight-knit and exclusive groups that sacrifice personally in order to improve the odds of collective survival - to the point where the old and weak 'walk off' in hard times, leaving their share of food and tools to the band.

All the PF portrayal of the Caldari is that they become successively less caring about people as you move out of their social and cultural groups, but that on the inside of those groups they have great solidarity.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I think this topic is a bit of a derailment and would deserve its own thread.

Gesakaarin argues that people go too far with the sense of kinship and 'rose tinted glasses'. I respect his opinion as his own, but I disagree to an extent.

I think Gesakaarin's theory overcompensates and goes too far in the opposite grimdark and dystopia direction, and doesn't allow for healthy family units or cross sub-factional friendships. I can't reconcile that into a functioning society that isn't wildly inept in basic interpersonal relations, or the ability to work together in an interstellar war against a foreign power. Maybe that's my "western viewpoints", but I honestly can't understand how that would work over the long term as a civilization.

That said, I think Gesakaarin is on to something here with what he's getting at, but I think the reality is probably somewhere in the middle.

Got to agree with Katrina here. A society with no cohesive bonds ISN'T efficient, it falls apart at the first hurdle. Always.

Note in my reply to Lyn I said that it's a matter of circles  - a Caldari will identify with his close co-workers, family and friends first. Then with kirjuun who work in the same company. Then kirjuun who work in the same mega-corporation. Then Caldari from Corporations in the same political bloc. Then Caldari in the State.

After that everything probably becomes varying degrees of dislike, with personal prejudices determining whether foreign ethnic Caldari are grudingly accepted as distant Kin or beyond-the-pale traitors. Guri. Foreign Allies. Foreign Enemies. And so on.

As much as I don't suggest that everything is some sort of collectivist utopia in the State I simply cannot subscribe to the idea that the Caldari as a kind of flesh and blood version of Sansha, either. Those who suggest feudal japan as an example need to remember that beneath the public mask, the Japanese are a passionate people who are capable of great love, sacrifice and emotion.

[Lyn Farel]

All the PF portrayal of the Caldari is that they become successively less caring about people as you move out of their social and cultural groups, but that on the inside of those groups they have great solidarity.

I have never especially seen that in PF personally.

Those who suggest feudal japan as an example need to remember that beneath the public mask, the Japanese are a passionate people who are capable of great love, sacrifice and emotion.

Like most people. Never said anywhere that the Caldari are uncaring bastards who would sell their mothers for a few kredits.

I just disagree with the interpretation that the Caldari think and act like Minmatar. In my book they do not care the slightest for their kin, maybe still more than for outsiders, but that's it. For their parents, sure, like everyone. But in their dog eat dog world, between megas and meritocratic principles always putting them in contest between themselves for everything...