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[Samira Kernher]

As to what CCP says... I didn't see the IN come out on top of the offical CCP rankings. Last time I checked it was ranked behind both Caldari and Gallente Navies.

1) Amarr Empire
2) Caldari State
3) Gallente Federation
4) Minmatar Republic


[...]

The Caldari Navy is by far the most technologically advanced, with the youngest, most up to date fleet and the largest ratio of battleships to other classes than any other Navy. Military service is also ingrained in the mentality of every Caldari, along with the acceptance that serving the State and being a part of something larger is part of an honorable life.

[...]

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

So CCP Falcon ranked them thusly, not CCP... vOv. I don't see an equivalence there. Especially as... what Seriphyn said. I also think Gesakaarin summed it up nicely. Even if in some abstract sense the IN is ranked as the 'most powerful' the CN and GN are quite close up, the MN isn't far behind and so far the IN never had the opportunity to play on it's strengths.
Also, you could have supplied a link at at least.

P.S.: Having found the post, I'm convinced that it is in response to and thus giving a list "Ranked from first to last, the strongest states in New Eden when considering all materialistic factors".

[Gesakaarin]

Well it makes sense the Caldari would always score high on the fictional military scales. It's the faction where one of the fundamental elements is the suspicion that everyone else in the cluster wants to invade them so the path to preserving their own freedom lies in their military.

To be honest though, I think the real strengths of the State military lies just as much in the standard of its training and what I suspect is an ingrained concept of Mission Command doctrines and a focus on tactical/strategic flexibility just as much as its technological edge to offset the disadvantages of numerical inferiority against every other military in New Eden.

The weakness I see in the State is that in a war it might be more than capable of taking systems but it just doesn't have the manpower to hold them for extended periods or sustain a protracted high-intensity conflict logistically or industrially against a faction like the Fed. Also, in a drawn out campaign the advantages of having all those highly trained and experienced career NCO and Officers will lessen as they get killed off.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Also, in a drawn out campaign the advantages of having all those highly trained and experienced career NCO and Officers will lessen as they get killed off.

Actually in a long war  those NCOs and Officers would likely be withdrawn into training and cadre roles, where they would pass on their skills and experience to the replacement crews, acting as force multiplier.

And here, again, the Caldari benefit from their compulsory military service. Rather than throwing entire standing units into the meat grinder, they would probably keep some standing units as category A and B units whilst activating the reservists and leavening them with standing troops.

But yeah - really not good at holding systems. Even going down on the ground and  taking the real estate would be hard for the Caldari. They just don't have the manpower - easier to glass the thing from orbit.

[Gesakaarin]

Also, in a drawn out campaign the advantages of having all those highly trained and experienced career NCO and Officers will lessen as they get killed off.

Actually in a long war  those NCOs and Officers would likely be withdrawn into training and cadre roles, where they would pass on their skills and experience to the replacement crews, acting as force multiplier.

That would be the smart thing to do, yes.

Actually on a tangent, both the first and current war between Fed and State seem a bit like the Korean War at times and probably highlights why they're currently at an impasse and their strengths and weaknesses. Because while the Fed has the very real capacity to overwhelm the State through its larger industrial base and logistical capacity it can't maintain a long-term military campaign before the home-front starts to collapse due to the casualties the State was able to inflict and the State was never able to achieve a decisive victory over the Fed because it didn't have the manpower to bring the fight into Fed territory, occupy it, and destroy its industrial centres.

So much like fighting over yards along the 38th parallel, the State and Fed just end up deadlocked. A few systems change hands along the border, a few more atrocities are committed fuelling the hawks on both sides and the war drags on for a hundred years with different Fed administrations or CEP decisions either heating it up or cooling it down.

Anyway, I think what might irk some Fed RP'ers is that the reasons why neither side could win differ. In it, it's often portrayed in the light of the Fed at times seeking to bring the, "Caldari separatists" back into the Federation but never succeeding because the State was more competent in their tactics and doctrines. In this the complaint seems to be the Caldari get a compelling drawcard in that the Fed could never achieve its objective of re-integrating the Caldari and the Caldari achieved their objective of the continued existence of the State even when faced with the larger size of the Fed because they're, "Military badasses with mad skills at war."

However, I would say while that might be a drawcard for some with the Caldari I've seen it as a double-edged sword because I think some players have their own difficulties in the realization of just how deeply militarized Caldari society is. It is a place, where underneath it all, a significant percentage of the population is continuously under arms and the rest are ready to be called up at a moment's notice to be mobilized for war. Conversely I think its RP reflects that, because underneath all the philosophizing about Heiian, or the kresh tea parties it is the faction most driven by concepts of conflict, competition, war, adversarial conduct, military collectivism and pragmatic corporate realpolitik in terms of what is presented in its background.

Whilst it might appeal to some, it might not appeal to others by any means.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Frankly, I am less concerned with the 'whose navy is the strongest' theoreticals - although I remain deeply about how CCP's idea of a cap fight involves both sides sitting at 0 and slugging away at each other with zero support fleet - than I am the social implications of a full-scale conflict on the RP community.

[Gesakaarin]

I thought the whole purpose to Live Events was to provide the illusion of consequence for players while the storyline is still played out as planned? That, and expecting that the LE fleets CCP does deploy with event actors to be, "Realistic" is probably asking too much given the resources that seem available. Unless there's going to be NPC spawns all over the place.

[Lyn Farel]

Next time the IN gets into a fight, I'd like to see it actually curb stomp shit like it's supposed to.

I think it's because (as was pointed by Andy on the IGS), the Amarr haven't actually fought toe to toe with an equal enemy for an extended period of time, unlike say the Gallente v Caldari.

I don't remember if I actually posted the answer I was writing on the IGS a few days ago, but Lyn wanted to point out that as much as that lack of up to date doctrines (like the Chinese IRL, huge armies, no modern experience in combat) could end up dramatically at times, the Imperial Navy is maybe the only entity, even more than the Fed, that is actually able to sustain a long and costly invasion on an enemy territory of that magnitude. It doesn't mean that it would be wise for them as other political factors can screw the whole thing up while pressure is increasing after a a certain period of war, but they definitely have the ability to wage war as attackers.

Next time the IN gets into a fight, I'd like to see it actually curb stomp shit like it's supposed to.

I think it's because (as was pointed by Andy on the IGS), the Amarr haven't actually fought toe to toe with an equal enemy for an extended period of time, unlike say the Gallente v Caldari.

With a navy that's supposed to outnumber anybody else five to one, I don't see why they actually need to be able to stand toe-to-toe on a balanced basis. Just drop twice or thrice as many ships on the field. Republic drops 15 Nags for another Colelie, this time in Imperial space? Okay. Imperial Navy drops 45 Revs, and 15 carriers. And five Aeons. Also an Avatar.

You don't need to be 'efficient' or 'effective' when you have an overwhelmingly larger navy.

Granted, I don't think CCP has enough event actors who can play the part, but then again they can just get ISD in on it. Give Mercury members and such some actor ships for the event.

It would be interesting to see how that might intimidate the Republic, maybe even scare them a bit and induce a panic: "Holy crap they still have a huge Navy, they aren't weak and decrepit!"

As much as I agree more or less, don't forget that IRL a certain discrepancy between 2 armed forces can lead to severe handicaps for the one lacking. Ex in the last war in Libya, where the training of their (few, granted) pilots as well as the age of their jets and AA SAM made them totally worthless in combat (unable to hit for shit, whatever they tried, huge gap in ECM capabilities). It doesn't mean that they can't hit and create damage, and I would expect as you say that a larger force to be able to actually do something, but the probability is... very low.

Just try to put a WW2 decent tank against a modern one, even 5 to 1, and they will certainly face a very hard time to even pierce it. Maybe at very close range... One just has to look at Syrian rebels trying to deal damage to T-72s with crappy RPGs... They actually manage to deal real damage by asymmetrical warfare (guerrilla tactics, etc).

That's why I would expect a two cases scenario to arise from that :

- Either the fight happens between a modern navy and an aging imperial fleet that predates Vak'Atioth, and even with superior numbers they might well face another Vak'Atioth.
- Either the fight happens between a modern navy and a modernized imperial fleet, and if the latter is big enough thanks to imperial numbers, the former might well have a really hard time.

Was I in an imperial admiral shoes, I would tend to use my aging ships as meat shields. Efficient, and "almost" impossible to counter.

Ohhhh, I see what you're saying now. Very good point.

The Imperial Navy would be late arriving on the scene, have very poor target calling, not have entirely effective meta-fits; and they would pretty much be relying on overwhelming force to win the day.

On the other hand, maybe the Imperial Navy has a "Special Forces" group that keeps up to date with the metagame and actually fights effectively? Would solve the whole 'not enough actors' thing...

They probably have, at least on the ground forces. Considering the number of elite units on the Amarr side in the lore for their ground forces (cyberknight, kameiras, counterboarding companies, etc), I would bet that you just DON'T let an Amarr force land its troop, period. And considering the numbers they must be as well with thousands of meatshields in the regular forces...

On the ship side, as I said above, a little thanks to Caldari partnership too, they have modernized a part of their fleet, so I would expect to see huge discrepancies  between various amarr fleets.

IE the longer the Imperials have to plan and get mobilized, the more they will likely 'curbstomp' the opponent through sheer numbers.  Border raids, behind the lines stuff, etc, the Imperials are not the best at this.

Planning for a year in advance to hit x solar systems across a directed war campaign, they will trounce.

I think it was well illustrated in the Bleak Lands campaign with the 7th Fleet against the Defiants. Pure asymmetrical warfare were both sides were unable to serious win or dent the opponent, leading to a painful war of attrition.

In an imperial attack on Minmatar space I would expect to see a few big engagements at first with crippling losses for the Minmatar and maybe a good chunk of losses for the imperials, but they care a little less about that. I would expect to see the remaining Matari fleets to start using the same tactics the Defiants used in the Bleaks afterwise...

Last time I checked it was ranked behind both Caldari and Gallente Navies.

As to what CCP Falcon says... what Seriphyn said.

As Seri said, it is rarely precised on which criteria these assumptions are based. I would expect to see the Amarr ranked behind Caldari and Gallente navies in terms of modernization. I would also expect to see the Amarr navy ranked above all in terms of raw power and numbers.

I also rather like the point of view that the Gallente are good strategically and the Caldari tactically.

[BloodBird]

1) Amarr Empire
2) Caldari State
3) Gallente Federation
4) Minmatar Republic


[...]

The Caldari Navy is by far the most technologically advanced, with the youngest, most up to date fleet and the largest ratio of battleships to other classes than any other Navy. Military service is also ingrained in the mentality of every Caldari, along with the acceptance that serving the State and being a part of something larger is part of an honorable life.

[...]

The only thing that the Amarr have over them really, is sheer tonnage in terms of numbers and some of the oldest and most experienced military leaders in the cluster.

Gods damn forum ate my damn post

Let's try again.

What this fails to consider is that there are far more conditions in play to determine if a navy is better than merely how advanced it is. Advanced how? What exactly is superior tech-wise and how does that play into their fighting ability?

To begin with there is a cap on how much tech alone will help you. It needs to be practical and functional, as well as perform it's tasks to a satisfying degree. Let me offer a couple examples.

Let's say State Navy's ability to reload their weapons relies on a top-of-the-line, high-tech automated system overseen by a few well-trained, expert techs who ensure everything runs smoothly. The machine receives an electronic order directly and manage to reload or sawp ammo in, a hybrid turret magazine in 5 seconds and a missile bay in 10. Imperial Navy utilize a hand-operated dial loaded with focus-crystals changing the frequency in their laser turrets and can swap between them in 5 seconds, the time it takes the slave overseer to receive the order, bark "RADIO" and for his 3 slaves to turn the handles rotating in place the radio crystal, swapping out the multi-frequency one. In practical terms, there is no difference to the two. They perform as expected and does the same job, in the same time-span.

Further, the "...largest ratio of battleships to other classes than any other Navy." part of the State navy example is meaningless on it's own. It fails to take into account how many ships they have to begin with.

Let's say State Navy have 1 million ships and, say, 500k of those being battleships. This is meaningless on it's own in a war with the Empire where the Imperial Navy has 10 million ships in total and 3 million of those being battleships. They can match the State's battleships one for one and still toss in another 5 battleships on top of each of those again. Why? Because they can.

Do believe my point is made by this point, or atl it should be.

Unless we get a complete overview of the full capacity and technological state of each Empire's fleets, their working tech, numbers, composition, chosen layouts, the Empire's ability to replace them, get new crews, tactics and strategic doctrines, logistical abilities and so on and so forth we can't make any kind of hard claims based solely on vague terms like "biggest" or "most advanced" or whatever. There are far to many factors in play and some Empires, in particular the Empire and Federation has major advantages, yet even then this is not all there is to their possible performance in any war or how any engagement will play out.

[orange]

The Caldari Navy is smaller in personnel and total ships than both the Federation Navy and the Amarr Navy, yet they have more battleships than any other fleet and the average age of the Caldari ships is considerably less. This is because the Caldari are constantly replacing their oldest ships with newer ones, with better hi-tech equipment. The strategic doctrine of the Caldari Navy is simple: to be able to defeat any other navy in the world. Most experts believe it is.

There is no discussion of ratio in the above description, it is simply stated the Caldari Navy has more battleships than any other fleet.

My hypothesis as to why the CN can get away with being battleship heavy and lack squadrons of smaller vessels that the FN and IN need to conduct border patrols, chase down pirates, and conduct interdiction is that the 8 mega-corporate PMCs are expected to fulfill may of those roles and are integrated into the CN command structure during war.

[Lyn Farel]

What are the flaws of the Caldari again ?

[Katrina Oniseki]

What are the flaws of the Caldari again ?

Total size.

[orange]

What are the flaws of the Caldari again ?

Total size.

And thus ability to occupy space.

[Gottii]

Total size.

This.  But its deeper than that.

The Caldari system of living emphasizes efficiency and "merit", to the exclusion of things like kinship and charity.  If you cant hack the system, youre gone.

And given that the Caldari state has quite a bit of homeless people, it stands to reason it happens quite often.  Logic would dictate that this would have to happen quite frequently, a Meritocracy fails to mean anything if a high majority of the population is found to be meritorious. I think the reason that the Caldari state has population problems is inherent in their traditions of disowning those who fall on the wrong end of whatever bell curve the Powers That Be are using to measure merit.

Growth and inclusiveness are often enemies of efficiency. Cant grow your population if you're constantly kicking out a good portion of your population.

[Ava Starfire]

Of course!

The republic should lose more and / or look foolish. *nods*

Havent had enough of that, or anything.