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[Mizhara]

Point out one such character.

[kalaratiri]

I'm not stupid enough to name specific names on a forum where it would immediately be reported as flame bait (Hi mod team!).

Nevertheless...

Did you read your own thread on the IGS lately? Most of the U'K posters were so flamingly stereotypical of "the angry freedom fighter" that wants to burn Amarr to the ground that they were almost parodies of themselves. Almost any attempts at a more moderate stance over the last few years have been met with derision at best from certain segments of the Minmatar community. I know for a fact Ava has had a rather hard time from Minmatar characters bitching her out for "not doing enough".

[Mizhara]

You mean the thread full of trolling and literally violent rape? The thread where I just went to count posts and three out of four pages were derails and attention seeking from everyone who was not around? Yes, I read it. I'd say we acquitted ourselves quite nicely there, compared to pretty much every other participant except Samira.

If that's your example, you're going to need to look further. I'm still waiting for any example of " they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things. "

[Haruchai Vidaraltyr]

I tend to agree that the issue of slavery is not one that can be easily ignored, but I think the real problem for RP is the one-dimensional response to its existence. Eve is a game predicated on conflict, so new players will inevitably see the public expression of that conflict. It becomes all too easy to simply become one of the crowd yelling at the Amarr as cartoon villains.

There ought to be a place for more nuanced approaches to slavery, such as diplomacy, and the challenge of providing a suitable economy and home for those that are freed. History shows us that the 'freeing' of slaves in the US (for example) took a lot of prior effort to the Civil War, the war itself (which was fought on far more complex issues than simply abolition) and the Jim Crow era of indentured servitude - let alone the ongoing modern issues. Imagine the horrors if all the transplanted slaves had been forcibly relocated to Africa upon being freed. This is somewhat analogous to the probable issues in New Eden of abolition.

I think there is much more to do for Minmatar RPers to step back from the one-dimensional 'no abolition no peace' mantra and represent more diverse views of what the future looks like. It doesn't help that CCP appears to have fundamentally devalued the Republic so that there is no meaningful state or state structure to mould - it might be a good idea for players to form some sort of Tribal Council to show at least some direction, since the one we're supposed to have is laughable. (I've gotten told off for 'god-mode' before, but until we show what a Tribal political system might look like, the Minmatar seem to me to be doomed to be the patsies of everyone else in the cluster, and to continue to accept the victim role that is so easy to RP until boredom inevitably strikes).

As a new player to Eve, I got so discouraged by the reality of Minmatar RP compared to the excitement I felt when choosing to play that race, that I have deleted the character. I have been thinking hard about how to re-visit his development and contribution.

I'm considering a plot where my character is now aiding the dispossessed refugees from the 9th generation freedoms and returned Nefantar as I read that many of these are in camps located in the Great Wildlands. As I'd conceived my character as a Republic loyalist with high aspirations to make his country stand strong (I'd have been better off making him a leper with several additional yet interesting skin diseases  ) it seems logical for him to try and do something about this example of my earlier point - the inability to deal with the reality of slave releases.

Many of these people are religiously Amarr, which makes them easy to ignore. My starting point would be to make a call for an Amarr missionary to come and help minister to their needs - which I fear, would make my character yet another form of outcast in the one-dimensional approach.

As an RPer, social interaction is important to me in a MMORPG like Eve. Am I setting myself up for yet another spell of solitude, or does this approach have any merit?

If you tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree, you'll be doing me a favour, by the way. 

[Lyn Farel]

Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery

You did, actually.

And it's not about being the focus. It's just a part of the faction that is too big to be ignored. It is how CCP designed it, where the issue of slavery and the Empire permeates the entire faction to one degree or another. It is a focus, among several. For better or for worse.

Well, I don't think anyone said slavery had to be ignored...

[Mizhara]

It is the implication, when it's continuously brought up as the problem.

[kalaratiri]

You mean the thread full of trolling and literally violent rape?

I'm sorry, I thought I was referring to the Ushra'Khan posters? Please let's not forget the bit where they graphically describe gutting and skinning Amarrians. No, the only people whoever post badly are Dirt 'n' Glitter ffs. Their entire persona is internet trolls, and yes their posting was awful, but it was done as a direct parody of the kind of over dramatised, violent, imagery that various U'K players have been doing for years.

Of course Mizhara, I could certainly name names. You would then look all offended and report that I'm spreading false accusations.

Do you, hand on heart, 100% honest, swear before gods and men etc etc, mean to claim that there are 0 Minmatar roleplayers who have ever been told they're "doing it wrong" by other Minmatar because they're not anti - Amarr enough?

[ValentinaDLM]

I think the health of Minmatar groups continues to grow, I know I have seen two new FW alliances, Matari Safari, and Starkmanir Unification. Not terribly certain on the RP behind them aside from being FW, but particularly interested in seeing more Starkmanir Unification as I assume the RP is related to the Starkmanir tribe which is not something we have really had much of in the RP community.

I have to say, I really like the idea of Minamtar RPers working towards ends that might include violence against the Amarr, but aren't defined by the Amarr. That being said, Val is going to keep doing her thing, of moving culturally more and more away from her Ammatar roots, and closer to more tribal traditions, but isn't going to be overtly aggressive towards the Amarr mainly because her boyfriend is in PIE, and beyond anything she has always sought to please the people in her life even if it means compromising her convictions.

And I must say having another RPer who is Matari and doesn't instantly bite my head off for being an Amarrian has been wonderful.

<3 True, I also like the idea of integrating our Dust Brethren into our RP more, so there is also that and, Val had a lovely time when you came over to Thal's house talking to True. Val is who she is, I have some other characters, that probably wouldn't be willing to sit down with a Templar like True or Thal, but Val is very much someone who isn't into making judgements too quickly on people. She would react rather poorly if she heard True was say, going around enslaving Minmatar, but she wouldn't expect him to rebel against his own culture but so much to be actively fighting it.

IMO backstory matters alot when it comes to how a character is going to react to slavery and Amarrian culture. Val might resent Amarrian culture and religion,and thinks slavery is wrong, this is because of her backstory. Val was Never a slave, and had a long term love affair with a slave. She was raised to be a believer in the Amarrian God and basically was caught between her romantic love and her paternal love in a battle for influence over how she acts. If Val had been a slave that had been mistreated by the Amarr it would make lots more sense for her to hate Amarrians without giving them a chance.

I feel lots of people are moving towards an aspect of Minmatar RP where slavery matters, but is ancillary to their goals, and that is the best path forward IMO.

[Lyn Farel]

Haruchai, I think that you can definitely take example on what Sinjin & others did with their Khanid Capsuleer Council. It's a council gathering all the khanid loyalist entities and individuals signing it, and I think it was a great idea to bring them together to do stuff.

It is the implication, when it's continuously brought up as the problem.

I don't see it... If you see it then i'm sorry if anything I said made it seem so... That never was the intention... I was pretty sure in my last post to have written clearly both archetypes, the minmatar only defined by slavery, and the minmatar by his culture/nation and Amarr enemy.

I find the idea to even imply it rather puzzling.

[Mizhara]

DnG weren't the only ones posting about violent rape, kalaratiri. Do feel free to point out the U'K posters that somehow crossed the line there. That - and I quote - "actively attacked Matari characters who try to focus on other things". And no, I would not report it, I am simply trying to get you to speak plainly here and provide examples of your claims. You've made some rather heavy ones:

The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.

"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"

One example, please.

[Nissui]

It doesn't help that CCP appears to have fundamentally devalued the Republic so that there is no meaningful state or state structure to mould - it might be a good idea for players to form some sort of Tribal Council to show at least some direction, since the one we're supposed to have is laughable.

I concur with the idea that the Tribal Council is poorly represented, and has been better represented in the past when, within the cluster's political narrative, they wielded even less power than they do now. The Dev actors I referred to earlier are an example, along with the news items during major events.

You touched on something that I have tried and failed to manifest, namely tribal governance through player action. Maybe governance is too strong a term, but that would be the goal state. I still think it can be done, but I do not think any such endeavor will be achieved on the IGS, wretched as it is. You may yet prove me wrong, should you make the attempt.

[Mizhara]

I tried to raise the topic of a Circle of Tribes, and it immediately got dogpiled by ostensibly Minmatar players, so yeah.

[kalaratiri]

The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.

"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"

One example, please.

You.

Maybe not so much now, but in the past? You've got a bit of a reputation Mizhara, and it's not for being nice and accepting of Minmatar characters that you don't feel fit in.

There are logs, but considering my previous interactions with you I don't really feel that you deserve to see them.

[Mizhara]

The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.

"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"

One example, please.

You.

Maybe not so much now, but in the past? You've got a bit of a reputation Mizhara, and it's not for being nice and accepting of Minmatar characters that you don't feel fit in.

There are logs, but considering my previous interactions with you I don't really feel that you deserve to see them.

Finally. So, in rebuttal:

* Deck23, a place made entirely for all Minmatar. No matter their religion, no matter their allegiance, no matter their history.
* Social Circle, including blatant Empire loyalists and more.
* Alliance full of non-Matari Minmatar.
* Attempts to create places of unity and gathering for all tribals, regardless of political views. (Shat on, quite severely)
* Married a damned Khanid Holder, for fuck's sake. Before the EM days.

Of course she's not nice and accepting of those who abandon her people to suffer in the Empire, what the hell would anyone expect? You're asking for quite a lot if you think the subject shouldn't come up.

So, know of any such characters that's been around the last four years? I mean, you're using this as an argument about the current situation, so I'm assuming you have something more recent than four year old logs.

[kalaratiri]

Do you, hand on heart, 100% honest, swear before gods and men etc etc, mean to claim that there are 0 Minmatar roleplayers who have ever been told they're "doing it wrong" by other Minmatar because they're not anti - Amarr enough?