Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 22 Aug 2015, 11:23
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People complain that Amarr and Caldari RP is dominating, and that Gallente and Minmatar RP is nowhere to be found.
I had a thought about this.
For Amarr RP, there is a substantial amount of what people call 'internal' RP available - the methods of the Reclaiming, the treatment of slaves and commoners, the politics of Holders and Family rivalries, and so on.
Any Amarr character can join the internal factions, with fairly little difficulty. Swapping between factions may be slightly more difficult, because of oaths of fealty and so on, but it's not necessarily impossible.
For Caldari RP, the most obvious internal RP is the Megacorporation system, where the different megas will have disagreements and rivalries. There's also the foreign policy factions.
Again, any Caldari character can join any internal faction with little difficulty. In fact, Caldari might be able to move between internal factions with greater ease than in Amarr RP. It's simply a matter of changing employment contract.
For Gallente RP... the internal factions are difficult for me to pick out. There's voting blocks that are mentioned in chronicles and such, but they're not really obvious ingame.
Anyone can join Gallente RP, anyone at all, even non-gallente characters. You can be who you want to be in the Federation.
For Minmatar RP, then, the obvious internal RP factions are the Tribes.
But, a Sebiestor cannot join the Brutor Tribe. Game mechanics mean that you can only choose between 3 of the Tribes, and the poor Vherokiors get sent to Native Freshfood, instead of Vherokior Tribe. Why?
There's no real way to be a Krusual Tribe supporter, because you can't make a Krusual character. You can claim to be adopted or something, or a half-Krusual half Sebiestor or something. But by the game mechanics, you're not.
This makes a hard limit on being able to move between internal factions, and with only 3 actually represented by character creation choices, then it makes it a lot harder to set up internal RP.
So, that was my thought, on why Amarr and Caldari RP always seems to be doing better than Gallente or Minmatar. There's enough stuff for people to form internal RP, and to keep it going, through occasional changes in loyalties. A gentle stir every so often.
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There's also the fact that Amarr and Caldari both have it much easier to have a unified front than the other factions. There's unifying politics, faith and social structures throughout both of those factions which are in a much lesser degree present in the Gallente and Minmatar factions. Just politically, the whole Republic vs Tribal conflict is huge in tearing apart any potential unity, there's the appeasers versus the staunch, there's the power struggles between the Tribes, the problem with Minmatar literally being spread across every faction in New Eden in damn near equal amounts (which is heavily abused by people creating Minnie sockpuppets vocally praising Amarr at every turn) and so on.
So the factions with the greatest ease of unity have the greatest population of roleplayers to start with, allowing for a huge critical mass for pretty much every internal faction and the factions with the least population can't get critical mass for even one internal standpoint in the faction.
I'm also pretty convinced they also keep getting the most CCP attention and fiction buffs.
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It's worth considering how the current situation came about - the majority of the "blame" for how the RP scenes are today lies squarely with the players who have been a part of it over the years. Things as they are now are not how they've always been and those changes were mostly player-driven.
The main exception I can think of is the Federation, which has always had quite a uphill struggle as it's "shared background" of lore is remarkably sparse for one of the 4 main factions in a game this old. Doable, as Fed RPers have shown in the past, but definitely harder to maintain a viable group as it's lacking a lot of the initial interest grabbing highlights.
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In the Federation you have a double layer of internal politics.
- The voting blocs define the citizens and how they tend to vote. Hawks, Doves, Ostriches, Magpies, Vultures... They define the political leanings and interests. Militarist, pacifist, apolitical, opportunists that vote for the bling, and the amoral ones picking up what profits them. Those voter blocs can vote virtually for any political party depending on the moment. They just define the leanings of a characters, that will then vote accordingly to what propose the political parties at instant X.
- The political parties: right wing Progressives/Liberals (Foiritan), left wing Sociocrats (Blaque), far left wing Minmatar Unionists, and far left right various U-Nats successors. You can probably add to the lot minor parties like the candidates like Celes Aguard that was probably a party for all the lowsec colonies, or the last candidate that was concerned about Caldari Prime.
It's very rich when you know where to dig.
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The Amarr community wasn't really all that 'active' until about two years ago. At least not visibly.
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The Amarr ebbed and flowed.. But mostly, it kept its integrity yes.
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I'll clarify, I guess, from my perspective at least. Over the last... six years, I guess, most "Amarr" RP has happened entirely in private settings with zero visibility to the outside world.
Until KotMC was formed, there wasn't a lot of Amarr RP happening that was visible to the average person who wasn't in PIE (or, I presume, some parts of CVA) unless they were doing it on the forums or in local through pew. A few people RPed in public (Aldrith, Koro, Esna, Math'ra and Max to name a few) but most Amarr RPers were only names to me (Arline, for example, who I really didn't actually ever actually meet - IC or OOC - until the last year or so) and I never, ever saw them anywhere. Ever.
While KotMC was active, there was a brief period of publicly visible and accessible Amarr-flavored RP, partly because Aldrith maintained a couple open channels that were, for the most part, welcoming to most characters save those that would have legitimate issues getting to them. There were periodic events as well either at the Basilica or Mercy's Keep, and the ones at the latter tended to be a bit more open-invite as well. Outside of those channels (and the ones affiliated with them, since Mercy's Keep had an entire network of channels associated with it), it was still pretty rare to see anyone who wasn't in KotMC RPing in public. Occasionally there'd be a PIE member or two in the Summit. Maybe in OOC as well, but both of those were pretty rare.
After KotMC closed and its members split off and went to do their own thing, there was another quiet period. There was still some activity in Summit and on the IGS from a few people, and periodically one or two things in private, but nothing publicly visible anymore.
It wasn't really until the last couple years when that changed - the result of that change is what we see now.
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I'm a staunch believer that RP is done and driven by people, not by 'external' factors like which 'internal factions' are accessible by game mechanics. If you have people that are dedicated to roleplay they will come up with interesting storylines, plots as well as the necessary deliniations along the characters can differentiate themselves. It's also about building an OOC community.
Yes, background and such may play some role, but it is really quite irrelevant compared to having people dedicated to make RP work and build a healthy community for it.
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I'm just kind of bummed that CCP doomheim'd our Tribal Council delegates. They were the actors that gave us a direct link to a unifying governing body, rather than the RSS, TLF, or RF, which are all paritsan.
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I'm a staunch believer that RP is done and driven by people, not by 'external' factors like which 'internal factions' are accessible by game mechanics. If you have people that are dedicated to roleplay they will come up with interesting storylines, plots as well as the necessary deliniations along the characters can differentiate themselves. It's also about building an OOC community.
Yes, background and such may play some role, but it is really quite irrelevant compared to having people dedicated to make RP work and build a healthy community for it.
I usually tend to agree with that. I may not be good at all at creating communities (I suck at it), but if there is a problem with the minmatar and gallente (and maybe soon caldari too) is not a lack of numbers, but a lack of willingness to come together and leave their current actual non-RP entities (nullsec, lowsec, whatever).
Those people make the choice to favour gameplay over RP (which is totally fine and legit!), but complaining then that there is a lack of factional block is a bit forgetting that fact I think.
Amarr RPers for most of them, are NOT in non RP entities.
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I'm just kind of bummed that CCP doomheim'd our Tribal Council delegates. They were the actors that gave us a direct link to a unifying governing body, rather than the RSS, TLF, or RF, which are all paritsan.
Wait, they what?! :s
Urgh. I can understand why they would want to slim down the number of characters to watch, but not giving you a non-military contact is mildly problematic.
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I'm a staunch believer that RP is done and driven by people, not by 'external' factors like which 'internal factions' are accessible by game mechanics. If you have people that are dedicated to roleplay they will come up with interesting storylines, plots as well as the necessary deliniations along the characters can differentiate themselves. It's also about building an OOC community.
Yes, background and such may play some role, but it is really quite irrelevant compared to having people dedicated to make RP work and build a healthy community for it.
While I'd agree, I'd want to point out that this isn't all that it takes. RP itself is certainly driven by people, but to get the people you need some sort of a draw. Something to gather people together. The Empire does this quite easily, with a unifying faith, goal, overarching philosophy etc. It doesn't really matter where in the faction you are, as long as you are in the faction you have a common ground and commonality to use as a uniting force.
The Minmatar faction simply doesn't. It's spread across three whole factions, with the majority outside of the main one. Gather together any five Minmatar characters and chances are you're looking at a five-way standoff between damn near mortal enemies. Just a quick example of how absolutely ludicrous it gets:
Amarr loyalist capsuleers arrange event X. Minmatar Loyalist capsuleer A goes "Let's crash the party. I'll cover the ships." Minmatar loyalist B goes "Absolutely not! It's a religious event!" A: "... we're supposedly terrorists. You literally called yourself a terrorist yesterday." B: "Sure, but it's a religious event. The one true faith!" A: "..."
Even the ones that are ostensibly loyalists are spread out on such a huge spectrum with so widely diverging loyalties and backgrounds that any kind of unified community just isn't possible. An IGS post cheering the death of a leader, of the most dangerous, hostile and vicious faction in all of New Eden gets five #NotAllMinmatar posts for each cheer. By other Minmatar.
When the faction itself is so fractured and broken that any random sampling of adherents will inevitably mean finding more enemies than potential allies, it's just not so simple as "getting people dedicated to roleplay".
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The mistake might be then, to identify to the Amarr and what the Amarr do and not what the Minmatar are, I think...
Nissui and very few others concentrated on the Minmatar identity (and the Republic for those who like). They didn't need the Amarr to make events or parties to crash to gather together very, very diverse Minmatar characters.
If you think that the Amarr bloc do everything together with the same goals... Well no. We play in our respective corners depending on our affinities. We come together when there is a reason to. On the IGS we spend our time sniping at each other, cause subfactional conflict is great.
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I have no idea what that first sentence means.
And I really have no idea what you mean about needing the Amarr to make events or parties to crash.
And that last sentence also has pretty much no relevance to what I wrote.
... in short, I don't get your post.
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Ah er... I think that the Minmatar players and characters in general try to identify too much in their relation to the Amarr, and not enough in their relation to the Minmatar...
That some players have done that, but they are a minority.
I get your example between player A and player B, and I agree that the minmatar lore itself makes it more spread out... And maybe it was just a bad example but the fact that I read that here was telling to me : again, it's identifying minmatar actions and stuff happening ingame in relation to what the Amarr do.
And well, I really think my last sentence is relevant actually. Maybe I didn't get it right but it seems reading you that the Amarr are all unified and do everything together... Well not really. They just talk to each other OOCly a lot. Which can result in a few common actions at times. I do feel it is relevant because you could achieve a similar result I think, minmatar lore or not.
Well, that's my opinion in any case. Take it as you will...
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Honestly, Miz, you're comparing apples and pears here.
There is not so much an 'Amarr faction' as an 'Empire faction'. Already when you look at what the 'Khanid Kingdom faction' is doing they are going in quite another direction than the Amarr and it isn't quite easy to integrate both in one unified 'faction'.
So, sure, if you want a 'Minmatar faction' which includes the Minmatar in the Federation, the Republic, the Thukker, and those in the Empire, then you're overreaching, simply put.
Just go for the 'Republic faction', the 'thukker faction' can reasonably be attached just like the 'Khanid faction' is to the 'Empire faction' (and the other way around like many Khanid factionistas will be eager to point out), but there is no unified 'Amarr faction' that includes Amarr that moved to the Federation, Amarr that are Blood Raiders, Amarr that joined the Republic or Amarr thatjoined Ushra'Khan.
Sorry, but you want too much, too hard and in a way that won't work. Don't complain that your task is impossible, if you yourself go around in cricles until you found various ways to make it impossible.
The fact is, there has been a 'Minmatar' or maybe rather 'republican faction' - so it can't be impossible. You're constant clamour that it is impossible and that there is no Matari RP and never will be is rather serving to let shoo people away from such RP. You're shooting yourself in the foot here.
Also,. franky, the level of obsession you have with this is something that I can't rationalize in any way or shape as healthy. To hold onto something when oneself is convinced that it is impossible is quite insane.
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Ah er... I think that the Minmatar players and characters in general try to identify too much in their relation to the Amarr, and not enough in their relation to the Minmatar...
+1
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Also, I'm kinda confused as to why you think Minmatar RP is doomed to be more fracted than Caldari RP. My character literally scoffs at the idea of a unified Caldari State - the State is a bunch of different political entities unified only by a single culture - being Caldari.
This system would work perfectly well for the Minmatar, where your Corps would be Tribes and your version of the CEP would be the Council of Elders. The problem comes, as Lyn has said, that you've allowed your position towards the Amarr to dominate over serving the interests of your Faction, instead of it simply being one of a number of issues driving you.
Too many Minnie RP'ers, to put it bluntly, care more about what happens to the Empire than they care about what happens to the Republic and care more about the fate of the Matari slaves in the Empire than the fate of the Matari tribesmen that live in the Republic.
You guys need to look at some RP'ers for whom the fate of their band/tribe/clan is the most important driving factor - Ava/Kyllsa springs to mind. Too many Minnie RP'ers seem quite happy to pursue a political agenda that would destroy both the Empire and the Republic if it came to fruition - the 'No abolition - No peace' faction springs to mind, here. That sort of position is absolutely fine for a small number of extremists, but it seems to be the default position for the entire Minmatar faction - and it's a position that would lead to the destruction of the Republic in short order.
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And it's not like they aren't or haven't been enough players who focused on internal matters more than the Amarr. But honestly, the 'No abolition -no peace' faction did a damn good job at making them feel pretty unwelcome, driving them away and out of the respective RP groups.
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I am unsure when this thread turned to be about me rather than the relative "health" of RP in different groups, but I'd appreciate it if the arguments actually responded to arguments rather than talking shit about me, k thx.
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Personally, I wasn't talking about you...
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I am unsure when this thread turned to be about me rather than the relative "health" of RP in different groups, but I'd appreciate it if the arguments actually responded to arguments rather than talking shit about me, k thx.
You make it sound like you think we're trying to win a debate in here. We're not. Some people have noted why Matari RP is having a hard time and others have noted why they think that is. Nobody is talking about you, directly, since that would constitute 'doinitwrong' and is against the etiquette of your board.
I'm interested in why YOU think Minnie RP is broke, then, Miz. Let's talk about your ideas.
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FWIW, this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/124Fwmc7B-vK2PDw4Fp90KDWjKnetKdtq_CR6093bhOk/edit?usp=docslist_api) was distributed some time ago in the effort to spur discussion on the issue, but I received no comments. That I did not press the issue to a wider audience was the fault of my own paranoia, which now seems moot.
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Is it me or is this whole "no abolition no peace" thing starting to get annoying? Half the time it seems to just be inserted into arguments for the hell of it. Realistically anyone so diehard about "freeing their people" would look at what they're freeing them into, thus wouldn't be throwing such an argument around for things that would also be considered important for their people. This tunnel vision of sorts really makes them sound unrealistic at least, idiotic at worst. As someone mainly looking at Minnie rp it at times makes it hard to rationalize why my character would even bother talking to someone so short sighted on things.That being said, why would someone jump into anything when their "allies" seem to want to only focus on one small aspect and turn on you for not drinking the kool-aid so to speak. It feels in a lot of ways Minnie rp has become or is done more satirical or like some 90's sitcom character (I really don't know how to explain it) and I'm not omitting myself from this criticism, I'm definitely guilty of it. I'm not trying to say anyone's doing it wrong or anything like that (I'm probably the last person qualified to accuse). I dunno, theres my thoughts either way.
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Perhaps I am old fashioned, but I like to remember a time when Matari RP was probably the most vibrant, lots of RP corps and really well rounded characters
That wasn't that long ago either... Ok maybe a couple of years but still, when I made Math'ra as an Imperial we were the dark evil slaver RP group.
PIE existed but only on the forums and even then with a stiff upper lip and haughty expression that would put the best to shame.
I think what we've experienced is a progression in our RP to be more accepting and open, we have our villains but our 'heros' too, excepting some certain small elements.
It's great to have inter-factional villains because you can use them to generate loyal support.
I do miss having more Fed RP around Andreus and a few others excepted, they always knew how to cause a stir, I so definately think it's their turn for CCP lovin'
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Minmatar loyalist corps, internal RP and OOC collaboration is on the rise.
No more days of just Ava and I active, now there is often as much or more activity in minmatar channels than the summit, though less consistently.
from what I understand, it was like this a few years ago in Amarr as well so its just going to be getting and rewarding more minmatar nerds to keep the current (great) momentum going.
I can't speak on the other factions so much as I more interact with them externally and not RP them.
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On the realism part of minmatar focusing "solely" on the slavery issue, just look at various real world conflicts that revolve around highly emotional issues, like e.g. Palestine indipendance (I'll self redact that out happily if it causes concern - can't really come up with something as obvious right now).
Some people are prone to zero in on something they feel very strongly about, I don't think that's unrealistic at all.
If you get too much of that however in any given community it'll kill much of the other RP, just like an algal bloom. Heck, even my very own Lae's killed a small number of RP channels by being the stubborn, self-righteous bitch she can be and that was just her. :|
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On the realism bit:
I find it highly unrealistic that people like Miz, born and raised in the Empire and freed, would not focus on either harming the Empire in every way they can or freeing the rest of her people, or both at once. Unfortunately, most public RP involving both factions will inevitably come down to the points of conflict, which thus steers the conversation to exactly these focuses.
This is why it comes up so much, because it is one of the extremely few subjects that naturally fits in the public space.
The rest of the character appears in far less public venues where actual Tribal focused things can come up. I'd actually go so far as to say the hardline approach is damn near dead and non-existent compared to all the peace-loving hippies.
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With me, the realism thing would stem more so from myself. I expect it from people like miz and a few others. Its been addressed in a way my character would say "alright that makes sense." Its more so having random person #52 saying such things. I don't fault them (a lot of it comes from my own laziness I fully admit) it more so would have my character scratching their head saying "where the hell did you come from?"
The zeroing in thing laerise mentioned I can understand, especially with as fractured race as the minmatar, but is that the only faction with in this it? It really seems like that's where everyone gravitates to aside from samira, val, and a few others, even if they don't have a reason to. The fact that it's one of the few non "crush to fit" topics out there I can understand but when its randomly tacked into things, really? Enslavement is one thing (yes, a massive thing) but they also leveled every monument where they went, tried to eradicate the whole tatoo culture, really just wipe out their culture in general. There's a lot of other ways people could go but don't. Sorry if this is considered a rant or something, I don't mean it to be. It's just things I've noticed and find myself wondering.
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I think the health of Minmatar groups continues to grow, I know I have seen two new FW alliances, Matari Safari, and Starkmanir Unification. Not terribly certain on the RP behind them aside from being FW, but particularly interested in seeing more Starkmanir Unification as I assume the RP is related to the Starkmanir tribe which is not something we have really had much of in the RP community.
I have to say, I really like the idea of Minamtar RPers working towards ends that might include violence against the Amarr, but aren't defined by the Amarr. That being said, Val is going to keep doing her thing, of moving culturally more and more away from her Ammatar roots, and closer to more tribal traditions, but isn't going to be overtly aggressive towards the Amarr mainly because her boyfriend is in PIE, and beyond anything she has always sought to please the people in her life even if it means compromising her convictions.
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I was quite pleased that my thread on the infamous subject of "Matari-ness" did not fall like a bag of stones.
Got quite a few responses, and from faces I've not seen before. This encouraged me, but also indicated that we as a community aren't doing outreach, inclusion and mentoring very well.
I could be misinterpreting, but one thing that I think DID pick the Amarr community up when I first began RPing was the fact that experienced RPers were actively seeking new-blood and bringing them into the fold.
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I could be misinterpreting, but one thing that I think DID pick the Amarr community up when I first began RPing was the fact that experienced RPers were actively seeking new-blood and bringing them into the fold.
I do believe it was Luna who encouraged Svetlana to join Minmatar.OOC, so your statement even bears a little water between camps.
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I think the health of Minmatar groups continues to grow, I know I have seen two new FW alliances, Matari Safari, and Starkmanir Unification. Not terribly certain on the RP behind them aside from being FW, but particularly interested in seeing more Starkmanir Unification as I assume the RP is related to the Starkmanir tribe which is not something we have really had much of in the RP community.
I have to say, I really like the idea of Minamtar RPers working towards ends that might include violence against the Amarr, but aren't defined by the Amarr. That being said, Val is going to keep doing her thing, of moving culturally more and more away from her Ammatar roots, and closer to more tribal traditions, but isn't going to be overtly aggressive towards the Amarr mainly because her boyfriend is in PIE, and beyond anything she has always sought to please the people in her life even if it means compromising her convictions.
And I must say having another RPer who is Matari and doesn't instantly bite my head off for being an Amarrian has been wonderful.
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Its a sad thing to see Matari RP in such a moribund state. I guess I saw a lot of it in its high water mark. These are the two problems I noticed from RPing as a Matari for about four years or so.
1.) Tribalism -- The very nature of Tribalism makes it rather hard to RP with the community at large. Tribal based communities are, by definition, "us vs them". But, EVE RP as a community tilts toward inclusion and pan-factional interactions, if for no other reason than its hard to find RP for a lot of people otherwise. There was always a tension between trying to build a tribal community and trying to maintain some kind of relevance to the community at large. Matari RP seemed to thrive when it had fairly insular communities to represent them (EM and UK for instance). Even for Recruitment and whatnot, it can rear its head. I remember wanting to build a very Matari based corp, for Matari descended characters, and the first three applications we received where Caldari for some reason. Makes for odd bedfellows.
2.) Slavery -- Man it can get tedious and boring. The problem is, though, its hard to NOT realistically focus on it as a Minmatar RP. "So, Amarrian lord, you've enslaved my people, with all the subsequent horrors intrinsic in racial based slavery, but lets not talk about that. I heard you're having a ball next week, can I crash it?" Its a huge issue hanging over everything, and one that doesnt go away. You cant solve it, it seems silly to ignore it, but it gets tedious and tired with no way to resolve it.
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1) I would tend to consider that as a mostly non issue to my opinion. Well, maybe I haven't had to face it proper and so on of course so take my view as an outsider view of things... I think that firstly, division doesn't happen only for tribal or fragmented societies like the Gallente. There is division in the Caldari, and there is division in the Amarr. True, they have unity under a bloc that is required, for the Amarr under their emperor, and for the Caldari, the trite "my corp against your corp, and the caldari together vs outsiders". Well it works too for the Minmatar: their tribes are rife with inter tribal conflict (but a lot less than inter caldari mega conflict in my opinion), but they are always united against the Amarrian threat. Secondly, I think it is properly silly to equate IC to OOC and bring those division on the OOC level. Players behind different tribes and minmatar characters can still talk to each other OOC like friends, and set up things together, much like it is done on the Amarr side (because believe me, between the witch hunts, calls for heresy, and all the oppressive side of the Amarr society, there is a truckload of conflict too).
2) I feel that there should be a difference between a minmatar only identified by his nemesis that suddenly becomes moot and less than nothing when you remove that nemesis (the Amarr slavers), and a minmatar identified by his tribe, his nation, culture, and customs, who has a common enemy: the Amarr. If you remove slavery and the Amarr of your background and everything related to your character, ask yourself the question "what is left?"... If there is nothing left, then there is a problem I think.
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1. "They are always united against the Amarrian threat" my arse. Most Minmatar characters spend more time on the Amarr side than elsewhere, and where they aren't they work against the Tribes in some way or another. They're Ammatar, Feddies, even Caldari or Amarr more often than they are of the Tribes.
2. It doesn't really matter how much character building you do within a clan or tribe when the massive point of contention becomes several orders of magnitude more important in public discourse unless you're willing to play exceedingly unrealistically. You can't actually remove the Amarr, slavery and so on from New Eden so that shadow will always hang over everything. It's not something that can just be ignored, and thus most public interaction will end up in that ballpark, whether you want it to or not.
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1. Then they aren't your clientele. Stop worrying about them. Let them do their thing and do your own. Just because there is a 'Minmatar' on their character sheet doesn't mean they have to buddy up, IC or OOC, with everyone who has that as well. I'm not complaining about the Amarr that are all over the place like Nauplius or Kazzi either.
2. It's the 'death over slavery' Minmatar players who make is the all-important thing. The ones who drive Minmatar away that don't frothe at the mouth against every Amarr in their vincinity. The problem is home-brewed.
It's not about whether the Amarr and slavery are there, but about how you deal with it, what importance you place at it and most importantly, if there's something more by which you can identify that the negation of Amarr and slavery.
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1. You are right, they aren't our clientele. That is the entire point. The majority of potential Matari roleplayers cut themselves off for other factions. They can of course do whatever they want, but that still leaves the actual MinFac rather barren. It's a matter of numbers and we just don't have them, because we simply don't have the overarching structure to unite under.
2. You're just flat out wrong there. There's just no realistic way to ignore the issue of Amarrian slavery while being part of the Matari faction. It's ingrained in the entire faction by design, by CCP themselves. To ignore it, you have to cut yourself away from the faction quite severely, or ignore a huge chunk of its entire reason for existing, which in turn drives players to other factions.
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Mizhara,
Nico, and Lyn for that matter, aren't saying to ignore slavery. They're saying that if shouldn't be the sole dimension of Matari RP. There are plenty of interesting facets to Matari RP that go beyond slavery.
Characters are models: incomplete representations of reality that possess a subset of the features for the purpose of exploring a certain aspect of that thing. If I like how airplanes look, I'm going pick a plastic model kit. If in interested in the the mechanics of flight, I'll pick a balsa and paper kit. Both are models of airplanes, but both are incomplete representations.
To take a more potentially challenging stance on the matter, if one insists that all Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery or they're not doing it right, well, that's just telling people how to play. And that generally drives people who don't directly match one's POV, which not only drives away those people, but makes one's community a one note community. And one note communities attract less members and fewer people want to interact with them.
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I'm still curious where the "rabid" and "frothing" comes from. In public, the discourse will almost always go to points of contention of course, so places like the Summit and so on are hardly good places to get a feel for a character. What goes on there is hardly the "sole dimension of Matari RP" and I'm frankly a bit insulted given all the stuff I've been setting up and interacting with other characters over that this claim is even made.
This is strawmanning and it's getting rather obnoxious.
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2. You're just flat out wrong there. There's just no realistic way to ignore the issue of Amarrian slavery while being part of the Matari faction. It's ingrained in the entire faction by design, by CCP themselves. To ignore it, you have to cut yourself away from the faction quite severely, or ignore a huge chunk of its entire reason for existing, which in turn drives players to other factions.
I got it from here. If I misunderstood or misinterpreted, I'm happy to be corrected.
I'll be honest, I like the concept of Deck 23; however, it is a little insular. If Jenn showed up in tow of a Matari and curious about Matari culture, would she really be welcomed? Or would the RP revolve around the fact that she's an ex-Pyre Caldari with a 24th IC commendation on her record?
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I don't see how "It's impossible to ignore" translates to rabid and frothing as has been stated repeatedly in this thread.
As for Deck23, she'd be no less welcome than any other guest. While on Neutral Ground, even actual Sansha characters have been tolerated and I had to go to fairly extreme character breaking lengths to get to that point.
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I don't see how "It's impossible to ignore" translates to rabid and frothing as has been stated repeatedly in this thread.
As for Deck23, she'd be no less welcome than any other guest. While on Neutral Ground, even actual Sansha characters have been tolerated and I had to go to fairly extreme character breaking lengths to get to that point.
I didn't say rabid or frothing. I'm disagreeing with what seems to be an insistence that slavery must be the focus of Matari RP.
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Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery
You did, actually.
And it's not about being the focus. It's just a part of the faction that is too big to be ignored. It is how CCP designed it, where the issue of slavery and the Empire permeates the entire faction to one degree or another. It is a focus, among several. For better or for worse.
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The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.
"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"
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Point out one such character.
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I'm not stupid enough to name specific names on a forum where it would immediately be reported as flame bait (Hi mod team!).
Nevertheless...
Did you read your own thread on the IGS lately? Most of the U'K posters were so flamingly stereotypical of "the angry freedom fighter" that wants to burn Amarr to the ground that they were almost parodies of themselves. Almost any attempts at a more moderate stance over the last few years have been met with derision at best from certain segments of the Minmatar community. I know for a fact Ava has had a rather hard time from Minmatar characters bitching her out for "not doing enough".
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You mean the thread full of trolling and literally violent rape? The thread where I just went to count posts and three out of four pages were derails and attention seeking from everyone who was not around? Yes, I read it. I'd say we acquitted ourselves quite nicely there, compared to pretty much every other participant except Samira.
If that's your example, you're going to need to look further. I'm still waiting for any example of " they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things. "
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I tend to agree that the issue of slavery is not one that can be easily ignored, but I think the real problem for RP is the one-dimensional response to its existence. Eve is a game predicated on conflict, so new players will inevitably see the public expression of that conflict. It becomes all too easy to simply become one of the crowd yelling at the Amarr as cartoon villains.
There ought to be a place for more nuanced approaches to slavery, such as diplomacy, and the challenge of providing a suitable economy and home for those that are freed. History shows us that the 'freeing' of slaves in the US (for example) took a lot of prior effort to the Civil War, the war itself (which was fought on far more complex issues than simply abolition) and the Jim Crow era of indentured servitude - let alone the ongoing modern issues. Imagine the horrors if all the transplanted slaves had been forcibly relocated to Africa upon being freed. This is somewhat analogous to the probable issues in New Eden of abolition.
I think there is much more to do for Minmatar RPers to step back from the one-dimensional 'no abolition no peace' mantra and represent more diverse views of what the future looks like. It doesn't help that CCP appears to have fundamentally devalued the Republic so that there is no meaningful state or state structure to mould - it might be a good idea for players to form some sort of Tribal Council to show at least some direction, since the one we're supposed to have is laughable. (I've gotten told off for 'god-mode' before, but until we show what a Tribal political system might look like, the Minmatar seem to me to be doomed to be the patsies of everyone else in the cluster, and to continue to accept the victim role that is so easy to RP until boredom inevitably strikes).
As a new player to Eve, I got so discouraged by the reality of Minmatar RP compared to the excitement I felt when choosing to play that race, that I have deleted the character. I have been thinking hard about how to re-visit his development and contribution.
I'm considering a plot where my character is now aiding the dispossessed refugees from the 9th generation freedoms and returned Nefantar as I read that many of these are in camps located in the Great Wildlands. As I'd conceived my character as a Republic loyalist with high aspirations to make his country stand strong (I'd have been better off making him a leper with several additional yet interesting skin diseases ;) ) it seems logical for him to try and do something about this example of my earlier point - the inability to deal with the reality of slave releases.
Many of these people are religiously Amarr, which makes them easy to ignore. My starting point would be to make a call for an Amarr missionary to come and help minister to their needs - which I fear, would make my character yet another form of outcast in the one-dimensional approach.
As an RPer, social interaction is important to me in a MMORPG like Eve. Am I setting myself up for yet another spell of solitude, or does this approach have any merit?
If you tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree, you'll be doing me a favour, by the way. :)
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Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery
You did, actually.
And it's not about being the focus. It's just a part of the faction that is too big to be ignored. It is how CCP designed it, where the issue of slavery and the Empire permeates the entire faction to one degree or another. It is a focus, among several. For better or for worse.
Well, I don't think anyone said slavery had to be ignored...
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It is the implication, when it's continuously brought up as the problem.
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You mean the thread full of trolling and literally violent rape?
I'm sorry, I thought I was referring to the Ushra'Khan posters? Please let's not forget the bit where they graphically describe gutting and skinning Amarrians. No, the only people whoever post badly are Dirt 'n' Glitter ffs. Their entire persona is internet trolls, and yes their posting was awful, but it was done as a direct parody of the kind of over dramatised, violent, imagery that various U'K players have been doing for years.
Of course Mizhara, I could certainly name names. You would then look all offended and report that I'm spreading false accusations.
Do you, hand on heart, 100% honest, swear before gods and men etc etc, mean to claim that there are 0 Minmatar roleplayers who have ever been told they're "doing it wrong" by other Minmatar because they're not anti - Amarr enough?
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I think the health of Minmatar groups continues to grow, I know I have seen two new FW alliances, Matari Safari, and Starkmanir Unification. Not terribly certain on the RP behind them aside from being FW, but particularly interested in seeing more Starkmanir Unification as I assume the RP is related to the Starkmanir tribe which is not something we have really had much of in the RP community.
I have to say, I really like the idea of Minamtar RPers working towards ends that might include violence against the Amarr, but aren't defined by the Amarr. That being said, Val is going to keep doing her thing, of moving culturally more and more away from her Ammatar roots, and closer to more tribal traditions, but isn't going to be overtly aggressive towards the Amarr mainly because her boyfriend is in PIE, and beyond anything she has always sought to please the people in her life even if it means compromising her convictions.
And I must say having another RPer who is Matari and doesn't instantly bite my head off for being an Amarrian has been wonderful.
<3 True, I also like the idea of integrating our Dust Brethren into our RP more, so there is also that :P and, Val had a lovely time when you came over to Thal's house talking to True. Val is who she is, I have some other characters, that probably wouldn't be willing to sit down with a Templar like True or Thal, but Val is very much someone who isn't into making judgements too quickly on people. She would react rather poorly if she heard True was say, going around enslaving Minmatar, but she wouldn't expect him to rebel against his own culture but so much to be actively fighting it.
IMO backstory matters alot when it comes to how a character is going to react to slavery and Amarrian culture. Val might resent Amarrian culture and religion,and thinks slavery is wrong, this is because of her backstory. Val was Never a slave, and had a long term love affair with a slave. She was raised to be a believer in the Amarrian God and basically was caught between her romantic love and her paternal love in a battle for influence over how she acts. If Val had been a slave that had been mistreated by the Amarr it would make lots more sense for her to hate Amarrians without giving them a chance.
I feel lots of people are moving towards an aspect of Minmatar RP where slavery matters, but is ancillary to their goals, and that is the best path forward IMO.
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Haruchai, I think that you can definitely take example on what Sinjin & others did with their Khanid Capsuleer Council. It's a council gathering all the khanid loyalist entities and individuals signing it, and I think it was a great idea to bring them together to do stuff.
It is the implication, when it's continuously brought up as the problem.
I don't see it... If you see it then i'm sorry if anything I said made it seem so... That never was the intention... I was pretty sure in my last post to have written clearly both archetypes, the minmatar only defined by slavery, and the minmatar by his culture/nation and Amarr enemy.
I find the idea to even imply it rather puzzling.
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DnG weren't the only ones posting about violent rape, kalaratiri. Do feel free to point out the U'K posters that somehow crossed the line there. That - and I quote - "actively attacked Matari characters who try to focus on other things". And no, I would not report it, I am simply trying to get you to speak plainly here and provide examples of your claims. You've made some rather heavy ones:
The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.
"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"
One example, please.
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It doesn't help that CCP appears to have fundamentally devalued the Republic so that there is no meaningful state or state structure to mould - it might be a good idea for players to form some sort of Tribal Council to show at least some direction, since the one we're supposed to have is laughable.
I concur with the idea that the Tribal Council is poorly represented, and has been better represented in the past when, within the cluster's political narrative, they wielded even less power than they do now. The Dev actors I referred to earlier are an example, along with the news items during major events.
You touched on something that I have tried and failed to manifest, namely tribal governance through player action. Maybe governance is too strong a term, but that would be the goal state. I still think it can be done, but I do not think any such endeavor will be achieved on the IGS, wretched as it is. You may yet prove me wrong, should you make the attempt.
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I tried to raise the topic of a Circle of Tribes, and it immediately got dogpiled by ostensibly Minmatar players, so yeah.
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The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.
"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"
One example, please.
You.
Maybe not so much now, but in the past? You've got a bit of a reputation Mizhara, and it's not for being nice and accepting of Minmatar characters that you don't feel fit in.
There are logs, but considering my previous interactions with you I don't really feel that you deserve to see them.
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The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.
"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"
One example, please.
You.
Maybe not so much now, but in the past? You've got a bit of a reputation Mizhara, and it's not for being nice and accepting of Minmatar characters that you don't feel fit in.
There are logs, but considering my previous interactions with you I don't really feel that you deserve to see them.
Finally. So, in rebuttal:
* Deck23, a place made entirely for all Minmatar. No matter their religion, no matter their allegiance, no matter their history.
* Social Circle, including blatant Empire loyalists and more.
* Alliance full of non-Matari Minmatar.
* Attempts to create places of unity and gathering for all tribals, regardless of political views. (Shat on, quite severely)
* Married a damned Khanid Holder, for fuck's sake. Before the EM days.
Of course she's not nice and accepting of those who abandon her people to suffer in the Empire, what the hell would anyone expect? You're asking for quite a lot if you think the subject shouldn't come up.
So, know of any such characters that's been around the last four years? I mean, you're using this as an argument about the current situation, so I'm assuming you have something more recent than four year old logs.
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Do you, hand on heart, 100% honest, swear before gods and men etc etc, mean to claim that there are 0 Minmatar roleplayers who have ever been told they're "doing it wrong" by other Minmatar because they're not anti - Amarr enough?
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Of course people have, just like people haven't been Amarr enough or Caldari enough. If that is your only niggle, you need to re-evaluate things. Now, like I asked, do you have anything but four year old logs to support your claim that there are people who "actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things."?
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The only character I can think of who was making that argument lately was Nameira, who had basically posted (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5764453#post5764453) that if you were a Minmatar capsuleer and not fighting for the Republic in the militia then you were useless and your lack of contribution would be remembered when the war was over.
Ironically she left militia herself and became a pirate after that.
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As an RPer, social interaction is important to me in a MMORPG like Eve. Am I setting myself up for yet another spell of solitude, or does this approach have any merit?
I don't know, but as someone that plays one of those type of religiously-Amarr former slaves, I'd be interested in interacting with that kind of character. Perhaps as said missionary or just as an advisor.
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Shouldn't you instead be helping the reclaiming effort Samira! *cracks whip* ;)
See, not only the mini side has people who make sure others are productive service members as well!
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That is part of the Reclaiming effort!
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Keep in mind y'all, I'm not saying that the slavery issue for the Minis is tedious because it turns your character into a frothing fanatic, because, frankly, if you play a lot characters in any kind of believable manner, it freaking should. It literally because the axis of many Matari characters whether you want it or not.
Take Gottii for instance. Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and background choices determined attributes, I picked "slave child" cus Per and Will for PVP training yo. So, when I decided to play the toon as an RP character, he had the fact that his immediate family was still in the Empire. This isnt like an RP choice, this was the freaking flavor text of the actual character sheet. He was a priori gonna have to play this as a main focus of his character. I mean, unless he's completely shed his family and humanity in an Istvaan-esque kind of post-human infomorphic transformation, the fact that his birth mother, father, and siblings are still enslaved in the Empire should freak him out and piss him off. I suppose I could have ignored it, but literally the game and the world background all lend itself to that being a huge concern.
Its not that its a bad RP angle so much as its an overwhelmingly immediate one for a lot of PCs and one you really cant address or resolve as a player.
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Your blog writings on that were some of my biggest inspirations when I started, Gottii. <3
I also don't think the slavery issue is a bad issue. It's a conflict creator, and those are necessary for creating RP. I think the big issue is, as Miz has said, that a lot of Minmatar RPers either completely ignore it, or say they care about it while not engaging it at all with their actual in-game actions and RP. Minmatar RP does have a big issue with splitting as I've noticed. Lip service, rather. That makes it hard to get a real community going as people aren't really coming together. There's common sentiments, but not common goals, or joint activities.
And I'm aware I'm part of the problem here, since I play an Amarrian Minmatar, though when I created Sami I was hoping to be able to be a conflict generator for both Amarr and Minmatar RPers. I'd like to think that having Amarr-loyal Minmatar eliminates some of the tediousness of it by adding more varied nuances to the issue than just 'True Amarr Slavers on one side and Minmatar Rebel Slaves on the other'.
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It is indeed not a bad issue. Like you say, it's a conflict generator. The problems only come when people won't deal realistically with the character relations that leads to, as in actual conflict between characters on different sides of the issue. OOC they want to add as many Friends to their Spacebook as they can and thus IC have a seizure and decides to ignore the conflict generators when it becomes inconvenient enough that characters would become opposed to each other.
The factions with sufficient numbers to have enough Spacebook Friends internally can afford to acknowledge the conflict generators and thus have realistic problems with the other factions' members, while MinFac does not. Thus, "Yeah! I'm totally a Minnie! How dare you question if I fly for the Empire? I'm still totes Tribal loyal. Yup." and get incredibly upset when people point out the rather obvious gulf between words and actions.
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(Ninjad by Miz, this was in response to Sami)
Thank you for the kind words <3. Im glad you enjoyed reading that blog.
And, yes, you're absolutely right that a pro-Amarrian Minmatar could be a fun character, and has a lot to say about the EVE universe. (also, props to PIE, love them as an RP organization <3)
But it also highlights one of the problems of RP vs. Building a Community, especially a tribal community. "RP", at least as a lot of RPers define it, define RP basically in the same as drama and storytelling. Conflict, "the heroes journey" and all of that. And thats great, and it makes for good stories and compelling stories and unique viewpoints.
But that's also the problem when you try to create a community of characters. Communities are not furthered by conflict, but by consensus. Furthered not by a bunch of unique viewpoints, but ones all roughly the same deeply held beliefs. The Matari even more so seem to need that, with their emphasis are traditional and corporate identity. Right now being "Minmatar" means so much that its kinda watered down. It can mean anything. Same problem with the Federation I think. The Caldari and Amarrian characters are much more constrained by "this is what it means to be x", which makes for easier ways to build communities, and frankly easier to tell good stories. Constraints breed creativity.
Though Im obviously a bit biased, I think its fair to say that EM was the standard bearer for Matari RP for awhile, and I think its general success in creating a Matari alliance and culture was its particular brand of RP. For EM, it wasnt interested in RP conflict and dramatics so much as immersing oneself in the game world and in the character. In many ways, we tried sought RP through harmony and shared vision than a bunch of conflicting and unique viewpoints. Even mining was an RP event, literally. A lot of them tried to a day in the life of a group rather than a conflict created by divergent views and dogmas. (now, did this happen in practice all the time, or even most the time? of course not, the Brutor Drama Club was a thing for a reason.)
This is in no way critiquing anyones character. Its just an observation from what I've seen. Its human nature as roleplayers that everyone wants to play a unique and/or outsiders view, but for a community to take hold, you need constraints and conformity and consensus. Right now in Matari RP there seems to be lots of outsiders and no insiders.
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Gotta be a unique and special snowflake.
The problem I had with EM was that while it had the day to day feel of people just living their lives, it was far too insular and didn't actually do much in space. In my time with EM, at any rate. A few fights occasionally with some pirates, but next to zero interaction with anything but itself. Even raising the topic of going to kick some Amarrians in the teeth pretty much got dogpiled. That's exceedingly unhealthy for any RP community.
There needs to be presence not just in an alliance/corp, but in space. Something achieved, or at least attempted versus other roleplaying factions. This requires numbers and a certain amount of unity within a faction. This is not achievable with nine out of ten characters being the "outsiders", nor is it doable when nine out of ten "insiders" preach peace and sitting still in Republic highsec.
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Right. You need a balance of both creating a community and conflict with other communities. Too much in either direction isn't healthy for RP.
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And we're back to the simple basis of it. We just don't have the numbers for either, because nine out of ten just fucks off to anywhere else while still claiming to be MinFac.
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Keep in mind y'all, I'm not saying that the slavery issue for the Minis is tedious because it turns your character into a frothing fanatic, because, frankly, if you play a lot characters in any kind of believable manner, it freaking should. It literally because the axis of many Matari characters whether you want it or not.
Take Gottii for instance. Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and background choices determined attributes, I picked "slave child" cus Per and Will for PVP training yo. So, when I decided to play the toon as an RP character, he had the fact that his immediate family was still in the Empire. This isnt like an RP choice, this was the freaking flavor text of the actual character sheet. He was a priori gonna have to play this as a main focus of his character. I mean, unless he's completely shed his family and humanity in an Istvaan-esque kind of post-human infomorphic transformation, the fact that his birth mother, father, and siblings are still enslaved in the Empire should freak him out and piss him off. I suppose I could have ignored it, but literally the game and the world background all lend itself to that being a huge concern.
Its not that its a bad RP angle so much as its an overwhelmingly immediate one for a lot of PCs and one you really cant address or resolve as a player.
I don't think players necessarily have to stick to their game racial ancestry in my opinion...
Especially for people that started long enough ago that they had like you to pick up what was the most efficient ingame, often without even knowing what they were going to RP in the first place. You also have all the players that came into RP later.
I can understand the need to tell them to deal with it (I suppose that's one way of seeing it), but myself, I cannot tell them to trash a character due to prior game choices that they are unhappy with.
Right now being "Minmatar" means so much that its kinda watered down. It can mean anything. Same problem with the Federation I think. The Caldari and Amarrian characters are much more constrained by "this is what it means to be x", which makes for easier ways to build communities, and frankly easier to tell good stories. Constraints breed creativity.
I tend to strongly disagree with this view. I think that freedom of choice is also a great catalyst for RP and both have their constraints and their limitations.
Amarr constraints for example are the harshest, and it tends often to go in the direction of "if you don't fit to the mold, gtfo". It is a great generator of IC and OOC ostracism and that is something that I understand some Minmatars had at least to deal with a bit too. Now imagine how constant it can be in the Amarr bloc...
People seems to think that the Amarr bloc is all shiny and nice and neat inside. Well, that's not true. It's full of IC divides and characters that share close to zero values besides their God and emperor. And due to those constraints, they push those people to clash constantly and you always have to fight against IC ostracism (if not OOC at times).
Does it generate conflict and drama ? Yes. The good and the bad kind.
The thing is, as I said above, Amarr players actually speak OOCly to each other. They do things together OOCly with each other... Well, not the base grunt, myself included. I may speak OOCly at best with one or two people from other entities of the Amarrian bloc on a regular basis. Because like for the Minmatar, I probably do not share a lot of RP motivators with every player.
But the leadership does. The commons goals are not there. You are I think, rather mistaken if you think they are. We have to create them. Because waiting for them to be served on a silver plate may often lead to waiting for a long time, indeed.
I also happen to think that the Amarr players may not be many more than the minmatar ones. I admit that there is a strong imbalance of characters on the minmatar side (so few republic loyalists, so many hardliners, so many freelance ones, no thukker, no nothing). It had to be dealt with... But I can count a lot of them. A lot of them might just lack a bit of seriousness in their RP.
EDIT : I also reckon that there is the issue of minmatar players, much in the same way than gallente, are spread across various non RP entities as I said somewhere else... And they are usually unwilling to leave them in favor of a chimera of new RP entities or factional bloc that has yet to be (re)created. That in itself, is the major hurdle you will have to surpass, I feel...
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"So many hardliners" wot?
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Most true minmatar loyalists I read on the IGS have hardliner stances.
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I'm going to need examples. I've barely seen a hardliner since I started Eve.
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Slavery seems to be that dogmatic topic that does not allow intermediate positions. Years of "Not again" whenever slavery was discussed on the Summit have shown this. You're either against it or you're not in the cool kids club. Used to be the opposite in Amarr years ago, where opposing slavery was the cool kids club.
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The Rook: That's the point. It's not the topic per se that doesn't allow for intermediary positions, it that there are people that exclude you from the 'cool kids club' over taking a stance that is.
It's people doing that and ultimately players. vOv
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If I can stick my head in and offer a more moderate viewpoint, I think there's something important being missed here:
Most non-Minmatar players do not get the chance to see 'internal' Minmatar activity, only external. External activity has a distinct bias in favor of discussing or involving slavery-related issues; moreover, external discussions tend come with a pre-existing confrontational tone which means responses in turn tend to have a more aggressive tone as well. This, in turn, can mean Minmatar characters that give non-confrontational answers in this situation are perceived as 'giving ground' in arguments, rather than calm discussion.
All of this combines to form a situation that builds the idea that what you seen public is all that happens.
Mind you, I do also think there is very real pressure not to take an anti-slavery position, but to take a violently anti-Amarr position. Compared to Sansha's Nation, Blooders, and the Angel Cartel the Amarr is consistently pointed to as somehow the biggest immediate issue, and anything less than military opposition to it first and foremost somehow 'wrong'. That's not only a Minmatar issue either; there are very real corollaries in Amarr RP as well.
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Thats why it was fun being in the Angel Cartel circles on Ember.
You were this totally nasty ass slaver but no one ever really called you on it.
It was all grr Amarr
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I had a thought on something. If you, say, create a caldari character to start with, and decide later that you don't want to be Caldari and instead want to be loyal to the Amarr, what do you do? Well, its not even really that difficult, you just embrace their religion and you're welcomed aboard. The same could be said about most groups, with the exception of PIE, your race doesn't matter, your actions are what matters. Given that, I think the following can be loosely extrapolated, and this is a falsifiable prediction, if someone wants to sit down and count all the active players:
X = Total faction population
x = All characters within X ∩ race x
Z = All races within X ∩ !x
So X={x,Z}
My prediction would be that if you ran the numbers for each faction's loyalist population {x<Z} would be true for all factions.
With that hypothesis in mind, its possible that the tribal, familial based RP might be hurting minmatar RP, because you can't change your bloodline on the fly to make yourself belong. Whereas one can easily integrate into the Amarrian faith, its very hard as a non-minmatar character, to throw yourself in with the minmatar. From their perspective, you're always going to be an outsider.
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<snip>
With that hypothesis in mind, its possible that the tribal, familial based RP might be hurting minmatar RP, because you can't change your bloodline on the fly to make yourself belong. Whereas one can easily integrate into the Amarrian faith, its very hard as a non-minmatar character, to throw yourself in with the minmatar. From their perspective, you're always going to be an outsider.
I would refer you to my own Clan Ogunkoya & it's stated aims then.
Commitment & loyalty first. Genetics second. it's just if people who aren't Minmatar want to join they'll have to make a very good case & I'll have to dream up some sort of acceptance trial and ceremony prior to a Voluval.
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There is certainly the idea in RP that blood matters more than clan, and that doesn't have to be that way. It could stand to discourage people, but personally, I like the idea of someone adopting a culture and a loyalty and integrating in to a clan.
Critical mass of RPers is a really big thing too, the Minmatar RPers we have are divided certainly. Like, if you have 5 people in GRD, 5 in RE-AW, and 10 in UNITY, an 10 in various single person corps, it will have much less effect than having 30 active people in one corp/alliance. This critical mass was something that certainly once existed in UNITY, and -EM- and to a lessor extend even groups like Terra Matarr managed to generate a sort of RP gravity around them with the sheer personality and presence of their members.
This is something, that can be achieved, but there will probably have to be some commitment from people who want the faction to grow. To this point, I can't really say much, my main is in a Caldari FW corp, not particularly against the Republic, but she isn't really pushing the Minmatar as a faction, merely a culture. There is also the point that not everyone is willing to deal with the realities of being involved in PVP, mining, RP, or Industry. One corp makes it difficult to do it all. An alliance probably can, but even if you look at the Amarrian RP groups arguably the strongest community ATM, CVA does null, PIE does FW, SFRIM does highsec, and so on.
I read about older stuff like the The People's Republic of Minmatar and it makes me think the potential is certainly there.
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SFRIM does more than highsec though, even if unofficially. A lot of our members regularly go to lowsec, or nullsec in Providence, or Anoikis... I think it is possible to do many things as a single corp... But the danger is to get a certain... decohesion.
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Since Luna took over (even before the official change in CEO-ship) there has been a diversification of what SFRIM is doing - especially towards PvP, which was originally explicitly excluded from corp activities. It's not only about what SFRIM is doing, it's also a relaxed recruitment policy.
On the up side, it probably brought more members with it. I personally have the feeling it brought also decohesion with it, a development I personally see critically, since SFRIM was never cohering that much.
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Well, having a look at the IGS I note with bemusement that the most popular post in a Worldbuilding Thread aiming to prepare for a Minmatar cultural event is a Diana Kim post being the usual Diana Kim post. "This is the state of Eve RP" I thought. Milking Minmatar slaves and derailing worldbuilding attempts.
I am having genuine trouble trying to figure out why anyone bother anymore.
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Saede, all you have to do to be a part of Minmatar RP is be pro minmatar. If hell, you wanted to join all you need is to join a clan, go through the rituals.
No change of behavior even required really. I would say minmatar is easier than amarr even.
And Mizhara, YOU are a hardliner. "kill all amarr" kill the slaves who are of amarr religion? Anti-republic ...?
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[admin]Locked. Anything of merit that this thread was going to see, it has already seen.[/admin]