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[Nmaro Makari]

I was quite pleased that my thread on the infamous subject of "Matari-ness" did not fall like a bag of stones.

Got quite a few responses, and from faces I've not seen before. This encouraged me, but also indicated that we as a community aren't doing outreach, inclusion and mentoring very well.

I could be misinterpreting, but one thing that I think DID pick the Amarr community up when I first began RPing was the fact that experienced RPers were actively seeking new-blood and bringing them into the fold.

[Nissui]

I could be misinterpreting, but one thing that I think DID pick the Amarr community up when I first began RPing was the fact that experienced RPers were actively seeking new-blood and bringing them into the fold.

I do believe it was Luna who encouraged Svetlana to join Minmatar.OOC, so your statement even bears a little water between camps.

[Kador Ouryon]

I think the health of Minmatar groups continues to grow, I know I have seen two new FW alliances, Matari Safari, and Starkmanir Unification. Not terribly certain on the RP behind them aside from being FW, but particularly interested in seeing more Starkmanir Unification as I assume the RP is related to the Starkmanir tribe which is not something we have really had much of in the RP community.

I have to say, I really like the idea of Minamtar RPers working towards ends that might include violence against the Amarr, but aren't defined by the Amarr. That being said, Val is going to keep doing her thing, of moving culturally more and more away from her Ammatar roots, and closer to more tribal traditions, but isn't going to be overtly aggressive towards the Amarr mainly because her boyfriend is in PIE, and beyond anything she has always sought to please the people in her life even if it means compromising her convictions.

And I must say having another RPer who is Matari and doesn't instantly bite my head off for being an Amarrian has been wonderful.

[Gottii]

Its a sad thing to see Matari RP in such a moribund state.  I guess I saw a lot of it in its high water mark.  These are the two problems I noticed from RPing as a Matari for about four years or so.

1.)  Tribalism -- The very nature of Tribalism makes it rather hard to RP with the community at large.  Tribal based communities are, by definition, "us vs them".  But, EVE RP as a community tilts toward inclusion and pan-factional interactions, if for no other reason than its hard to find RP for a lot of people otherwise.  There was always a tension between trying to build a tribal community and trying to maintain some kind of relevance to the community at large.  Matari RP seemed to thrive when it had fairly insular communities to represent them (EM and UK for instance).  Even for Recruitment and whatnot, it can rear its head. I remember wanting to build a very Matari based corp, for Matari descended characters, and the first three applications we received where Caldari for some reason.  Makes for odd bedfellows.

2.)  Slavery -- Man it can get tedious and boring.  The problem is, though, its hard to NOT realistically focus on it as a Minmatar RP.  "So, Amarrian lord, you've enslaved my people, with all the subsequent horrors intrinsic in racial based slavery, but lets not talk about that.  I heard you're having a ball next week, can I crash it?"   Its a huge issue hanging over everything, and one that doesnt go away.   You cant solve it, it seems silly to ignore it, but  it gets tedious and tired with no way to resolve it.

[Lyn Farel]

1) I would tend to consider that as a mostly non issue to my opinion. Well, maybe I haven't had to face it proper and so on of course so take my view as an outsider view of things... I think that firstly, division doesn't happen only for tribal or fragmented societies like the Gallente. There is division in the Caldari, and there is division in the Amarr. True, they have unity under a bloc that is required, for the Amarr under their emperor, and for the Caldari, the trite "my corp against your corp, and the caldari together vs outsiders". Well it works too for the Minmatar: their tribes are rife with inter tribal conflict (but a lot less than inter caldari mega conflict in my opinion), but they are always united against the Amarrian threat. Secondly, I think it is properly silly to equate IC to OOC and bring those division on the OOC level. Players behind different tribes and minmatar characters can still talk to each other OOC like friends, and set up things together, much like it is done on the Amarr side (because believe me, between the witch hunts, calls for heresy, and all the oppressive side of the Amarr society, there is a truckload of conflict too).

2) I feel that there should be a difference between a minmatar only identified by his nemesis that suddenly becomes moot and less than nothing when you remove that nemesis (the Amarr slavers), and a minmatar identified by his tribe, his nation, culture, and customs, who has a common enemy: the Amarr. If you remove slavery and the Amarr of your background and everything related to your character, ask yourself the question "what is left?"... If there is nothing left, then there is a problem I think.

[Mizhara]

1. "They are always united against the Amarrian threat" my arse. Most Minmatar characters spend more time on the Amarr side than elsewhere, and where they aren't they work against the Tribes in some way or another. They're Ammatar, Feddies, even Caldari or Amarr more often than they are of the Tribes.

2. It doesn't really matter how much character building you do within a clan or tribe when the massive point of contention becomes several orders of magnitude more important in public discourse unless you're willing to play exceedingly unrealistically. You can't actually remove the Amarr, slavery and so on from New Eden so that shadow will always hang over everything. It's not something that can just be ignored, and thus most public interaction will end up in that ballpark, whether you want it to or not.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

1. Then they aren't your clientele. Stop  worrying about them. Let them do their thing and do your own. Just because there is a 'Minmatar' on their character sheet doesn't mean they have to buddy up, IC or OOC, with everyone who has that as well. I'm not complaining about the Amarr that are all over the place like Nauplius or Kazzi either.

2. It's the 'death over slavery' Minmatar players who make is the all-important thing. The ones who drive Minmatar away that don't frothe at the mouth against every Amarr in their vincinity. The problem is home-brewed.
It's not about whether the Amarr and slavery are there, but about how you deal with it, what importance you place at it and most importantly, if there's something more by which you can identify that the negation of Amarr and slavery.

[Mizhara]

1. You are right, they aren't our clientele. That is the entire point. The majority of potential Matari roleplayers cut themselves off for other factions. They can of course do whatever they want, but that still leaves the actual MinFac rather barren. It's a matter of numbers and we just don't have them, because we simply don't have the overarching structure to unite under.

2. You're just flat out wrong there. There's just no realistic way to ignore the issue of Amarrian slavery while being part of the Matari faction. It's ingrained in the entire faction by design, by CCP themselves. To ignore it, you have to cut yourself away from the faction quite severely, or ignore a huge chunk of its entire reason for existing, which in turn drives players to other factions.

[Jennifer Starfall]

Mizhara,

Nico, and Lyn for that matter, aren't saying to ignore slavery. They're saying that if shouldn't be the sole dimension of Matari RP. There are plenty of interesting facets to Matari RP that go beyond slavery.

Characters are models: incomplete representations of reality that possess a subset of the features for the purpose of exploring a certain aspect of that thing. If I like how airplanes look, I'm going pick a plastic model kit. If in interested in the the mechanics of flight, I'll pick a balsa and paper kit.  Both are models of airplanes, but both are incomplete representations.

To take a more potentially challenging stance on the matter, if one insists that all Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery or they're not doing it right, well, that's just telling people how to play. And that generally drives people who don't directly match one's POV, which not only drives away those people, but makes one's community a one note community. And one note communities attract less members and fewer people want to interact with them.

[Mizhara]

I'm still curious where the "rabid" and "frothing" comes from. In public, the discourse will almost always go to points of contention of course, so places like the Summit and so on are hardly good places to get a feel for a character. What goes on there is hardly the "sole dimension of Matari RP" and I'm frankly a bit insulted given all the stuff I've been setting up and interacting with other characters over that this claim is even made.

This is strawmanning and it's getting rather obnoxious.

[Jennifer Starfall]

2. You're just flat out wrong there. There's just no realistic way to ignore the issue of Amarrian slavery while being part of the Matari faction. It's ingrained in the entire faction by design, by CCP themselves. To ignore it, you have to cut yourself away from the faction quite severely, or ignore a huge chunk of its entire reason for existing, which in turn drives players to other factions.

I got it from here. If I misunderstood or misinterpreted, I'm happy to be corrected.

I'll be  honest, I like the concept of Deck 23; however, it is a little insular. If Jenn showed up in tow of a Matari and curious about Matari culture, would she really be welcomed? Or would the RP revolve around the fact that she's an ex-Pyre Caldari with a 24th IC commendation on her record?

[Mizhara]

I don't see how "It's impossible to ignore" translates to rabid and frothing as has been stated repeatedly in this thread.

As for Deck23, she'd be no less welcome than any other guest. While on Neutral Ground, even actual Sansha characters have been tolerated and I had to go to fairly extreme character breaking lengths to get to that point.

[Jennifer Starfall]

I don't see how "It's impossible to ignore" translates to rabid and frothing as has been stated repeatedly in this thread.

As for Deck23, she'd be no less welcome than any other guest. While on Neutral Ground, even actual Sansha characters have been tolerated and I had to go to fairly extreme character breaking lengths to get to that point.

I didn't say rabid or frothing. I'm disagreeing with what seems to be an insistence that slavery must be the focus of Matari RP.

[Mizhara]

Matari characters must be rabidly anti-slavery

You did, actually.

And it's not about being the focus. It's just a part of the faction that is too big to be ignored. It is how CCP designed it, where the issue of slavery and the Empire permeates the entire faction to one degree or another. It is a focus, among several. For better or for worse.

[kalaratiri]

The point being made is that there are Matari characters who are so overwhelmingly, burningly, focused on the slavery issue that they actively attack Matari characters who try to focus on other things.

"How dare you not be fighting the Amarr every moment of your life you terrible person, do you not care for your kin, you are no Matari rarara"