I most certainly apply it to real life nations that employed it, but there is a mitigating factor there in that they didn't have quite a few thousand years more of development and time to get to grips with such questions of ethics and morality. Every nation that actively engage in slavery goes beyond the pale. This includes human trafficking and in certain respects I'd even include the way certain penal systems are designed practically as for-profit slave labor. They are inexcusable failures of ethics and morality, no matter what society we're talking about and does overshadow any "good" sides. The Empire in Eve makes every real life example look positively saintly by comparison.
It definitely is an opinion I hold strongly and I'd seriously question the ethical and moral capacities of those who do not.
Of those who do not what ? Those that do not share the opinion that the nations that employed it didn't have quite a few thousands years of development and time to question its ethics ? Those that do not share the view that some penal systems are designed around it ? Those who do not share the opinion that it overshadows any good sides ? Those that do not share the view that the Amarr in Eve makes every real life example look positively saintly by comparison ?
1) Some of the RL nations that employed it lasted maybe as long as the Amarr Empire itself. Starting with Ancient Egypt. Even the Romans and Greece lasted centuries. And they didn't have time ? They actually had a few philosophers that questioned it.
Also, there still are plenty nations and cultures that are perfectly fine with the concept. Remove western commonly accepted belief that slavery is pure evil, and enforced by the West and the superpowers, and see what happens. Hell, it already happens with Daesh, and i'm pretty sure now that you mention Dubai and the likes, that would probably openly practice it if there was not again the West watching them in the first place. Same for China. And others.
2) Some penal systems ? Probably.
3) Trying to rank bad and good sides respectively and putting them on a scale from 1 to 10 or 100 is completely silly. One's good action doesn't negate a bad one, and vice versa. So a bad side overshadowing a good side ? It sounds completely silly. They are two separate things.
Here I could even be doing like you and question your own morals and ethics if you really think that. But it would be rather... arrogant. And definitely implying a moral superiority. And seriously flirting with ad hominem.
The only thing I see is that you personally find the Amarr ones despicable OOCly, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make a general fact.
Are you trolling, Lyn? Because it really, really seems like you're implying these aspects of the Amarr Empire aren't objectively and decidedly bad. I mean, if the Amarr Empire were a real place, with the laws and policies they have, you would want to live in an expansionist imperial state complete with inquisitors and state- and religiously-sanctioned slavery?
The entire modern world finds these things despicable. You don't?
I'm only pointing at the fact that Miz seems to be obsessed by the Amarr negative sides while dismissing all the other equally negative ones of the other factions, and stating that as an obvious fact, which it isn't.
It is also quite obvious that Miz feelings on the matter are completely coloured by his own feelings, and it's not the first time on the matter. It doesn't bode well for any cool headed discussion.
The only thing I will say again, is that compared to our western humanitarian views, it's despicable and hardly imaginable at the scale the Amarr Empire practices it.
The same way that gallente pleasure hubs, brothels filled with pedophilia, children sweatshops, underground circuses, and other nasty things probably much, much horrible than the regulated slavery of the Amarr Empire, is atrocious. Ah, and let's not forget the Omega cities and all those pieces of humanity that are just categorically REMOVED or FORGOTTEN in every federal record because those no man's lands are so depraved and poor that they do as if they do not even exist.
The same way that Caldari base workers living in conditions barely better than any labor slave of the Amarr Empire, and i'm not even speaking about the disassociated and all the ones that got out of the system, that even hobos probably have better living conditions because hobos RL are at least not hunted down since they are still considered as HUMAN. Not even speaking about their thought police condoning CEOs and white collars that can sell your whole family if that's what they want, because it's the fucking mega that makes, writes, and applies the law, which means, your fucking employer. And that's supposed to be somehow better than Amarr slavery ?
Or the same way that Minmatar mutilate you for the only reason to get bad luck with your Voluval mark, are ready to kill millions of people just to achieve their goals and are overall depicted as an even more wicked version of South Africa.
(For example, Source's bit on Caldari absolutely brings it back to its neofascist underpinnings - even with the imagery. Which I personally appreciate, because perhaps it can help kill once and for all the Knights In Space version of Caldari that was so dominant for a while.)
I'm nt quite sure if it is bringing it back to 'neofascist underpinnings'. The PF I read back then allowed for many perspectives and resulting interpretations. And I think that was a good thing: it allowed for a realisic diversity in RP.
People will have different interpretations. I was always very frustrated with a lot of the past interpretations of Caldari and the State that ran amok. In my opinion, it is the least interpretable and variable of all of the factions but somehow got hijacked by RPers in a very nonsensical direction. Caldari have always had a strong neofascist (note the neo part - people somehow miss it a lot) feel to me. But others have disagreed with me. It is part of why I am spending very little time with Caldari RP recently.
The Caldari are not samurais, knights, or conservative small business owners. Being surrounded by Caldari RPers that have jumped on those bandwagons drives me crazy, so I have largely done the peaceable thing and moved on to other factions for myself instead of trying to ruin their fun.
+ 1.
It was quite different before TEA though. Caldari RP changed radically between the old generation and the new one. :/
The voluval has the mitigating factor that it's supposedly an actual representation of a type of person. An exile mark is a mark of a person that would be a threat or a significant detriment to society, after the voluval ritual read the person (through genetics, neurology, whatever. Who really knows?) and tagged him/her as such. Whether or not that'd actually work, who knows? If we could accurately identify and screen out murderers, sociopaths etc, we quite probably would. It's not a lottery, it's a screening. It's also hardly "forcing" anyone but the exiles, as everyone else are still entirely free to make their own choices.
I'm sorry but it really doesn't even come anywhere near slavery. Even worse, generational slavery.
Nobody proved that the Voluval is a real thing that works. It's purely a tradition.
So, if someday I decide that a certain colour of skin is indicative of the evilness or dangerousness or criminalness of a person, and that a whole tradition and customs emerge out of it, it's going to be a... "mitigating factor" ? Or that people with slanted eyes, harelip, and the likes are deviant and criminally potent people and that it just sleeps deep inside them ? Speaking about traditions that go way back to stone age by burning at the stake all the ones with pale eyes or whatever because they are obviously a manifestation of the devil... And then people cry that slavery is a sign of medieval societies ?
They are "free". Right. Free to get mutilated and sent to Vo'Shun, yeah, sure.
And ah, we are still comparing in a matter of scale, aren't we ? That the Amarr slavery is an institution covering billions of slaves, and not the Voluval few millions of unlucky losers ? But we haven't even spoken about the rest of them, right ? The rest of them that like the Amarr go through an institutional slavery willingly, perfectly knowing that their whole life will be decided by a huge farce of a lottery that nobody even knows how it works and what it really does ? If that's not slavery, I don't know what it is.
Ah, but the will and ideals behind the system are just and righteous, right ? They do that because they genuinely believe that their system works (even if they have no proof or clue as to if it works), and they are actually helping people and society as a whole ? And the Amarr do not ?
Ahahaah, oh god did you really just start making judgments on real life moral superiority? Now that's a line even I wouldn't cross in here, unless the debate had gone to some really dark and scary places not suitable for Backstage.
The moral superiority only comes to those who question and find the reasons why it is so rather than those who simply play sheep to their own upbringing and flailing their arms at how bad it is without even being able to explain it in the first place. You should have understood that if you read what Nico wrote.
Personally I know I did myself, and also know precisely why I despise slavery, either in its institutional form, or in all its veiled forms.
Also yes, you started it in the first place by questioning our moral and ethical capabilities, which also explains why we are responding that way now.
Ah now, my apologies for the caustic tone.
