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[Lyn Farel]

There sure was a certain belief in the caldari bloc in the past that caldari were awesome and full of admirable values. There was a clear bleedover between IC and OOC that was underlying everywhere enough to make OOC outsiders pretty put off. Especially since they only wanted to focus on the positive values of the faction depicted in the PF rather than embracing the whole.

But here again, we had that in every faction.

(except for the Empire which is just flat out bads).

How so ? I can see plenty of good sides in the Amarr Empire, like culture, high education (well, for the people that can access it), a deep interest into knowledge and wisdom, benevolent enterprises, a society where order, self discipline and purity is put above all else...

Of course there are "good" sides in the Empire. And of course, like for all other empires all those "good" sides can quickly turn into very nasty sides when coupled with other facts.

[Louella Dougans]

(except for the Empire which is just flat out bads).

How so ?

the Empire is bad, because it is religious, and all religions are bad. except the pagan ones. which were super cool. then Abraham ruined everything. for ever.

[Lyn Farel]

Well yes, I already guessed that 

[Mizhara]

The Theocracy is an issue but merely a lesser one. It's the expansionist imperialism, thought police (heresy!) etc that are real scary. Well, oh yeah... and that tiny little thing where they turn people into belongings and can't see what's wrong with that. Having good sides (I'd argue against "for Purity" being one of them) does not make up for the faction being entirely and utterly a bad guy when there's something that horrifyingly wrong with them. There is no way to mitigate something as horrifying as that. Every "good side" sprinkled on top is like pissing in a black hole and hoping that'll turn it shining white somehow.

[Havohej]

@Hav: I disagree that Caldari are more "bad" as you put it. I have always viewed the Caldari philosophy as one akin to; "The sum is greater than the whole of its parts."  emphasizing a healthy proactive people that lauds it's achievements a pushes all to achieve their best.

That's well and good, I don't disagree with that point in and of itself.  But the Caldari culture is hardly a nation of "All for one, one for all" musketeers.  It's their overt and celebrated ruthlessness that puts them on the dark side of the Gal/Cal coin (Federal ruthlessness is more of an under-the-table, backroom, behind closed doors thing - on the face, all must be fair and just and egalitarian).

I'm a little unconvinced that a splash of makeup is all that it takes to differentiate between bad and good.

If both are ruthless, while only one is openly so, both are still ruthless. If Caldari are bad for their unrequited efficiency in the boardroom, then the Gallente stand equal footing on the Senate floor.

I may be misrepresenting my opinion.  When I mentioned everyone (that is, all four "Empires") having their shades of grey, I mean to say that all four are "bad".  In their own, special little way.  As Miz points out in his post - if not for the Amarr, the Minmatar would be a bad guy faction themselves, based on what they've been doing.  When I call two bad guy factions and the other two good guy factions, I'm only talking about the veneer all four factions have.  Without actually reading any of the PF beyond the descriptions you see at Chargen, a new player would be pretty convinced as to who's who in the alignment of good vs. evil.

New Eden being the grimdark space world that it is, it's only after you've invested the time reading that you find out there are no good guys here.  No heroes or saviours to show our avatars a shining beacon of goodness and hope to follow.  Some individual players might choose to be good guys and stick to their e-moral guns, some players might choose to try and be good guy reformers among the bad (Esna comes to mind, based on what I know of his long-past IC interactions with Zuzanna Alondra).  Others, like Miz and I, choose to be on the villainous side of a "good" faction.

It's the shades of grey CCP's written into their worldbuilding that makes it so it's very difficult to really be "doinitrong".  Like, you gotta go pretty far out of your way.

[Odelya]

Which of the factions one is going to categorize as 'good' and which as 'bad' is really a matter of perception/perspective. It depends on what catches ones eye and how it resonates with the hierachy in which one lines up the values one holds dear.

For example: I personally find that the Gallente are not more beningn because they hide their flaws so enthusiastically - rather that cultural dishonesty is something I find especially off-putting. On the other hand: Someone who IRL thinks that poor people bear the responisbility for being poor themselves won't have much of a problem with the Gallentean idea that 'poor people want to be poor' that lou points out, I guess.

So, while the categorization of the factions says something about our western cultural norms and how CCP characterized the factions (yah, there are tendencies there in relation to western standards - and they got more pronounced with EVE: Source, imho), it mostly says something about the person doing the characterization, imho.

Absolutely. The problem then becomes generalising personal perception that tries to colonise others (using real life discourses in an act of epistemic violence). EVE actually enables us to be someone else. What I love is when someone or a group creates meaningful content, something immersive, something that is organic and grounded in the world, something that does not make me think of real life discourses, but something that gives me the impression to stand on its own footing.

Maybe I should just delete my account here and go completely IC. No OOC anymore. I'll give it a thought.

[Lyn Farel]

The Theocracy is an issue but merely a lesser one. It's the expansionist imperialism, thought police (heresy!) etc that are real scary. Well, oh yeah... and that tiny little thing where they turn people into belongings and can't see what's wrong with that. Having good sides (I'd argue against "for Purity" being one of them) does not make up for the faction being entirely and utterly a bad guy when there's something that horrifyingly wrong with them. There is no way to mitigate something as horrifying as that. Every "good side" sprinkled on top is like pissing in a black hole and hoping that'll turn it shining white somehow.

I don't see how it's different from other factions, which all have shocking negative sides if we really are going to speak with humanitarian virtues in mind.

The only thing I see is that you personally find the Amarr ones despicable OOCly, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make a general fact.

[Havohej]

The only thing I see is that you personally find the Amarr ones despicable OOCly, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make a general fact.

Are you trolling, Lyn?  Because it really, really seems like you're implying these aspects of the Amarr Empire aren't objectively and decidedly bad.  I mean, if the Amarr Empire were a real place, with the laws and policies they have, you would want to live in an expansionist imperial state complete with inquisitors and state- and religiously-sanctioned slavery?

The entire modern world finds these things despicable.  You don't?

[Samira Kernher]

The Theocracy is an issue but merely a lesser one.

This is definitely one of those subjective cases. I personally don't see theocracy making a nation any more evil than any other form of government; there's plenty of evil democracies in the world. Depending on the religion, a theocracy could potentially be better (in an ideal world, at least. Corruption happens everywhere).

It's the expansionist imperialism, thought police (heresy!) etc that are real scary.

Imperialism is a pretty common sin as nations go, though, and something Amarr doesn't do anymore due to international treaties. What makes Amarr's scary, and what I assume you were referring to, is that the religion can be interpreted to make violent conquest a divine mandate, which threatens the long term viability of those treaties. That's definitely scary, though something that can be changed at the cultural level and certainly was being changed by Heideran and Doriam. The lore afterall established that non-violent conversion is the preferred method by most everyone except the Sarum Family. So as far as imperialism goes I'd say this is a potentially dangerous aspect but not one that's very likely with the modern Pax Amarr.

I won't deny the thought police though. "Book of Emptiness" and EVE Source do however both describe an Amarr that tends to be rather lax about it unless it's something seriously dangerous to society, since Amarr can usually rely on "the deadening weight of cultural inertia" to counter most forms of deviancy. Even in the case of heresy, when it's not something seriously disruptive the Empire tends towards lighter punishments (as shown in "Book of Emptiness"). The most aggressive actions are against those groups that are actively working as a subversive element.

Well, oh yeah... and that tiny little thing where they turn people into belongings and can't see what's wrong with that. Having good sides (I'd argue against "for Purity" being one of them) does not make up for the faction being entirely and utterly a bad guy when there's something that horrifyingly wrong with them. There is no way to mitigate something as horrifying as that. Every "good side" sprinkled on top is like pissing in a black hole and hoping that'll turn it shining white somehow.

You have a very strong opinion on this. I am wondering (and this is an honest question), do you consider the same about RL societies that have employed slavery? (America definitely, as it was probably the most horrifying implementation of it, but would also need to consider nations like Rome, Greece, Ancient Egypt, Britain, China, Russia, and others, as well as Islamic states which retained slavery until just a few decades ago).

I may be misrepresenting my opinion.  When I mentioned everyone (that is, all four "Empires") having their shades of grey, I mean to say that all four are "bad".  In their own, special little way.  As Miz points out in his post - if not for the Amarr, the Minmatar would be a bad guy faction themselves, based on what they've been doing.  When I call two bad guy factions and the other two good guy factions, I'm only talking about the veneer all four factions have.  Without actually reading any of the PF beyond the descriptions you see at Chargen, a new player would be pretty convinced as to who's who in the alignment of good vs. evil.

Definitely. I won't deny that I gravitated towards Amarr and Caldari originally because they both stood out at first as the dark factions. I still view Caldari as dark, there's very little about them that comes across positively to me, though my opinions on the other three have become more nuanced.

[Jace]

(For example, Source's bit on Caldari absolutely brings it back to its neofascist underpinnings - even with the imagery. Which I personally appreciate, because perhaps it can help kill once and for all the Knights In Space version of Caldari that was so dominant for a while.)

I'm nt quite sure if it is bringing it back to 'neofascist underpinnings'. The PF I read back then allowed for many perspectives and resulting interpretations. And I think that was a good thing: it allowed for a realisic diversity in RP.

People will have different interpretations. I was always very frustrated with a lot of the past interpretations of Caldari and the State that ran amok. In my opinion, it is the least interpretable and variable of all of the factions but somehow got hijacked by RPers in a very nonsensical direction. Caldari have always had a strong neofascist (note the neo part - people somehow miss it a lot) feel to me. But others have disagreed with me. It is part of why I am spending very little time with Caldari RP recently.

The Caldari are not samurais, knights, or conservative small business owners. Being surrounded by Caldari RPers that have jumped on those bandwagons drives me crazy, so I have largely done the peaceable thing and moved on to other factions for myself instead of trying to ruin their fun.

[Mizhara]

I most certainly apply it to real life nations that employed it, but there is a mitigating factor there in that they didn't have quite a few thousand years more of development and time to get to grips with such questions of ethics and morality. Every nation that actively engage in slavery goes beyond the pale. This includes human trafficking and in certain respects I'd even include the way certain penal systems are designed practically as for-profit slave labor. They are inexcusable failures of ethics and morality, no matter what society we're talking about and does overshadow any "good" sides. The Empire in Eve makes every real life example look positively saintly by comparison.

It definitely is an opinion I hold strongly and I'd seriously question the ethical and moral capacities of those who do not.

[Louella Dougans]

everyone that rp's amarr has damaged ethical and moral capacities. you read it here first.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The only thing I see is that you personally find the Amarr ones despicable OOCly, which is perfectly understandable but doesn't make a general fact.

Are you trolling, Lyn?  Because it really, really seems like you're implying these aspects of the Amarr Empire aren't objectively and decidedly bad.  I mean, if the Amarr Empire were a real place, with the laws and policies they have, you would want to live in an expansionist imperial state complete with inquisitors and state- and religiously-sanctioned slavery?

The entire modern world finds these things despicable.  You don't?

I don't think Lyn means to troll: What he is saying, as I understand him, is that Amarr doesn't stand out that much more than the other factions, if you look at it:

First, thought police isn't so much athing in the Empire. No, really. It isn't: They are more concerned about orthopraxy than orthodoxy. You think God doesn't exist? Fine, as long as you keep it to yourself and go about your daily business as if he would exist. Actually, thought policing is something that happens more in societies where freedom of action is stressed. Of course you can do what you want, but you can't want what you want! EVE wise thought policing is, I think, much more common in the State and probably the Republic then the Empire. And prolly also in the Federation, where, at the end of the day, you aren't allowed to deviate from the ideas of 'freedom', 'plurality' and so on.

In regard to expansivist imperialism the federation is not at all a second to the Empire. The Gallente Federation is every bit as imperialist as the Amarr. They just wrap it in some nice gift package.

In the Gallente Federation wage slavery abounds. They might not be slaves on paper and ofc they are free to leave (and die)! But de facto economic necessities binds them to their employer as the slave to its master. Similar arrangements exist in the State, no doubt: The corp decides about your education, your position in life... they really own you for all intents and purposes. And in the Republic people are practically owned not by another person, but by their clan. Their fate is not in their hand, but oftentimes depends on the oracle of the voluval, up to people being expulsed from society or even killed not because of their actions, but simply because the voluval lottery assigned them with the wrong mark.

In all these cases there is no way to mitigate something as horrifying as that. Every "good side" sprinkled on top is like pissing in a black hole and hoping that'll turn it shining white somehow.

This isn'tonly true for the Amarr, but all four factions. The Amarr aren't the arch-evil of New Eden, that can't possibly been found in the other factions. Nor are they naturally and necessarily evil, while all other factions are only bad accidentally.

The important point Lyn makes is: "I don't see how it's different from other factions, which all have shocking negative sides if we really are going to speak with humanitarian virtues in mind."

I don't see how one could deny that point and I'm curious why one would, just to brand the Amarr as exceptionally evil.

[Mizhara]

@Lou

Wonder who would say something as ridiculous as that? Didn't see it once in this thread.

[Jace]

Oh, and about the Amarr aspect. It is considered evil by people for two reasons: slavery and the contemporary association of theocracy with people like ISIL or the Hollywood stereotypes about the RCC during the Inquisition and Crusades.

Slavery is a no-brainer and it always seems to get people going faster in science fiction because this is supposed to be the future - the notion that someone stayed that backwards for that long is rather horrifying to people (even Aristotle was aware of abolitionist arguments). I think someone above mentioned this aspect, but I am too lazy. But it is the only major element of any of the big four that can't be argued for in offline terms. You can make an argument for hedonism, censorship, tribalism, theocracy, corporate control, nationalism, surveillance, and every other potentially objectionable element of the four empires in EVE. But literal slavery no longer has any arguments in its favor in the offline world, so it makes Amarr de facto bad in many people's eyes.

Edit: as for my own personal opinion, I think the entire topic is not only pointless but nonsensical. Nation-states are not moral actors. To say that a nation is 'evil' or 'good' is a misuse of terms.