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Author Topic: Re: Starting Over OOCly  (Read 11445 times)

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Starting Over OOCly
« on: 01 Oct 2014, 22:25 »

Amarr and Caldari are bad guy factions

u wot mate  :s
Is true!

While outside the topic of this thread, of the four factions (while all four have "dark sides" and "shades of grey"), Amarr and Caldari are the two most overtly 'bad'.  Amarr for their pro-slavery theocracy, Caldari for their 'motherfuck the individual and all his rights, State Above ALL' attitude.  Whereas Min/Gal are all like "Freedom!  Democracy!  Cake!"  We've been involved long enough and care enough about the little nooks and crannies of the PF to know the cake is a lie and they're both bad, too, beneath the veneer... but yeah, they're the good guy factions, ur in bad guy club so ur bad and u shuld feel bad, k?

Honestly not sure if srs.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Vizage

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #1 on: 03 Oct 2014, 14:18 »

@Miz: I've never been able to role play a character that doesn't have "pieces" of me in their makeup. In my short experience with Rp I've found there's usually two kinds of role playing happening. One is the very conscious act of "the love of the art"  interacting, conversing, just having fun with the medium. This can take tons of different forms, from parties to debates, sharing deep secrets, or fighting in Grand battles.

But behind all of that I've always been convinced of a therapy that goes on. Just like many of us share insecurities and doubts with friends and family, putting these "pieces" of ourselves into our characters can be deeply fulfilling and therapeutic to our human condition.

We can find comfort and yes sometimes face harsh truths, but looked at in the proper light I think there is value in most of it, and if things do get toxic, there are a lot more tools at our disposal to distance ourselves if needed.

@Hav: I disagree that Caldari are more "bad" as you put it. I have always viewed the Caldari philosophy as one akin to; "The sum is greater than the whole of its parts."  emphasizing a healthy proactive people that lauds it's achievements a pushes all to achieve their best.

I wouldn't necessarily consider this bad, just "different."


And finally on the subject of "feeling lonely" in a [Insert specialized/exclusive roleplay niche here], perhaps maybe instead of immediately specializing yourselves into these niche "population: you" communities, you could attempt to function in a wider community and make those specialities of character an aspect of your role play rather than a "defining feature."

I feel that way about exclusivity right up to faction level Rp. Segmenting this already small community into smaller sub groups to me at feels like it starves individual limbs till the whole body dies out.
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Jace

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #2 on: 03 Oct 2014, 19:07 »

@Hav: I disagree that Caldari are more "bad" as you put it. I have always viewed the Caldari philosophy as one akin to; "The sum is greater than the whole of its parts."  emphasizing a healthy proactive people that lauds it's achievements a pushes all to achieve their best.

I was only being partially sarcastic with my individualism snipe. It is very easy to see Cal as not being bad if you are not strongly attached to hyperindividualism.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #3 on: 04 Oct 2014, 01:35 »

Of course all factions all have "good" and "bad" traits to various degree, that some people will even fight "bad" and "good" because they see differently (cultural relativism and all that, the best thing to play in Eve RP ever imo), the point made I think was more that gallente/minmatar usual values are often closer to "good" than their counterparts compared to western IRL culture.
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Havohej

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #4 on: 04 Oct 2014, 02:19 »

@Hav: I disagree that Caldari are more "bad" as you put it. I have always viewed the Caldari philosophy as one akin to; "The sum is greater than the whole of its parts."  emphasizing a healthy proactive people that lauds it's achievements a pushes all to achieve their best.
That's well and good, I don't disagree with that point in and of itself.  But the Caldari culture is hardly a nation of "All for one, one for all" musketeers.  It's their overt and celebrated ruthlessness that puts them on the dark side of the Gal/Cal coin (Federal ruthlessness is more of an under-the-table, backroom, behind closed doors thing - on the face, all must be fair and just and egalitarian).
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Mizhara

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #5 on: 04 Oct 2014, 02:21 »

Of course Caldari are bad. They're space americans.
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Havohej

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #6 on: 04 Oct 2014, 03:34 »

But wait.  If the Caldari are Americans, what're the Gallente?
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Mizhara

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #7 on: 04 Oct 2014, 03:41 »

EU. Federation of different cultures etc, hypocrisy abounds, etc etc.

On a more serious note though, cases can be made for each of the empires to be good guys/bad guys (except for the Empire which is just flat out bads). The Caldari have an ordered and meritocratic society where everyone can prove their worth and rise in the ranks on their skill and intelligence alone, with the somewhat commendable outlook that benefiting the State means benefiting all within it and yourself as well. Of course, the bad guy bits come with the capitalistic ruthlessness, cultural xenophobia etc. The Federation have the usual "western good guy" thing with democracy and free culture but on the other hand represent a fairly nasty lie given what we know lurks beneath the veneer.

The interesting thing about the Republic to me is that they're only good guys by dint of getting abused and fucked over by worse bad guys (Empire/Federation). Otherwise it'd be a quite bad guy faction all on its own, with the inherently "corrupt" system of family > clan > tribe way of life, poor social systems, the outcast issues with the reliance on voluval marks etc etc. If the others weren't even worse, they'd never be "good guys".
« Last Edit: 04 Oct 2014, 03:48 by Mizhara »
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Vizage

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #8 on: 04 Oct 2014, 05:37 »

@Hav: I disagree that Caldari are more "bad" as you put it. I have always viewed the Caldari philosophy as one akin to; "The sum is greater than the whole of its parts."  emphasizing a healthy proactive people that lauds it's achievements a pushes all to achieve their best.
That's well and good, I don't disagree with that point in and of itself.  But the Caldari culture is hardly a nation of "All for one, one for all" musketeers.  It's their overt and celebrated ruthlessness that puts them on the dark side of the Gal/Cal coin (Federal ruthlessness is more of an under-the-table, backroom, behind closed doors thing - on the face, all must be fair and just and egalitarian).

I'm a little unconvinced that a splash of makeup is all that it takes to differentiate between bad and good.

If both are ruthless, while only one is openly so, both are still ruthless. If Caldari are bad for their unrequited efficiency in the boardroom, then the Gallente stand equal footing on the Senate floor.
« Last Edit: 04 Oct 2014, 05:46 by Vizage »
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #9 on: 04 Oct 2014, 05:43 »

the Gallente attitude towards social welfare is a lot more rightward leaning than a lot of people realise.

The fundamental thing about Gallente culture, is teh idea that you can "be who you want to be".

If you're poor, then, a substantial proportion of Gallente society believe that you are poor because you want to be poor.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #10 on: 04 Oct 2014, 06:47 »

Which of the factions one is going to categorize as 'good' and which as 'bad' is really a matter of perception/perspective. It depends on what catches ones eye and how it resonates with the hierachy in which one lines up the values one holds dear.

For example: I personally find that the Gallente are not more beningn because they hide their flaws so enthusiastically - rather that cultural dishonesty is something I find especially off-putting. On the other hand: Someone who IRL thinks that poor people bear the responisbility for being poor themselves won't have much of a problem with the Gallentean idea that 'poor people want to be poor' that lou points out, I guess.

So, while the categorization of the factions says something about our western cultural norms and how CCP characterized the factions (yah, there are tendencies there in relation to western standards - and they got more pronounced with EVE: Source, imho), it mostly says something about the person doing the characterization, imho.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #11 on: 04 Oct 2014, 07:43 »

TBH I personally think it's better to look at the sides from a thematic perspective rather than a good/evil one. Thematically the competing factions look primarily to have been designed as complimentary sides of the same coins. Both the Federation and the State are two different depictions of classic dystopian universes, one in which the average person is free from want and so society loses its deeper meaning as mass consumption and hedonism settles in, where democracy is a lie because only a very small percentage of people actually care enough to vote, and the other being the corporate state owned entirely by megacorporations that exploit and brainwash their workers and cast out anyone that doesn't follow the rules as threats to carefully tended social stability, where meritocracy is a lie because only those who do what society expects of them will have their merits acknowledged. The State may be overtly dystopian while the Federation is portrayed as overtly utopian, making the State appear the worse of the two at first, but both are dystopias in reality. Read dystopian novels and you will find similarities of societies in those books to both the State and the Federation.

On the southeast side of the cluster you instead have the conflict of spiritual and national identity and as a result a far more volatile conflict than Fed/State. Unlike the above dystopian factions, where materialism reigns and the absence or insincerity of spirituality and the human soul is a central flaw, both Amarr and Minmatar have a deep spiritual and cultural core that is so central to who they are that they eventually feel the need to force it on others. They have spiritual, moral, ethical mandates. Neither side is capable of 'leaving things be', because unlike the northwestern factions they have a inner drive to not leave things be. It is a sin for the Amarr to not Reclaim and it is a sin for the Minmatar to not rescue the rest of the Minmatar. Refusal to engage in these central points of dogma result in accusations of treason and faithlessness, this is why there will never be peace between the two until one is destroyed by the other (and this destruction must be cultural, physical destruction fails when the spiritual core lives. Hence why the Minmatar nation did not end with the Day of Darkness, and why it was ironically the Amarr in the position of rebellion in Immensea when they felt their spirituality was threatened). Amarr and Minmatar need meaning to their lives, they need to feel spiritually fulfilled, and in most cases this fulfillment requires the enforcement of their beliefs on those who represent a threat to them. Both look to conquer people who they feel should be theirs, who they feel must be saved. "We come for our people," though mostly used by Matari RPers, is a slogan that fits both sides, because their beliefs demand that they bring what they view as "the lost" back into their fold whether or not the target people have ever actually been in their fold. For the other factions, both the Amarr and the Minmatar represent inherently dangerous elements because they will both refuse to compromise and will actively work against you should you appear a threat to their core beliefs. They have goals that grip their hearts and souls, heaven forbid if you try and get in their way.

As a whole, I'd probably still personally classify the State and the Empire as the darker groups within their thematic pairs, primarily because they've been written with more overtly bad aspects by the modern western perspectives most of us hold, which I don't consider an issue personally. They are more often portrayed as the black half in black-and-white scenes by certain writers though (hello Tony G), which can be frustrating. But I really prefer to just avoid quantifying good and evil as it's ultimately a rather irrelevent distinction for RP (and sometimes leads to OOC harassment of players); I'd rather focus on what each faction represents and believes because these are the things we are seeking to emulate in our roleplay.


Also, I think this bit of the thread should be split. It's a very interesting discussion IMO, but very offtopic for this thread.
« Last Edit: 04 Oct 2014, 09:07 by Samira Kernher »
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Jace

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #12 on: 04 Oct 2014, 08:28 »

It seems to me that they fell short of the dystopian perspective they are hinting at with the Federation. Yes - hedonism, lack of interest in the public good, secret governmental organizations that are above the law, these are all things that are standard science fiction dystopian themes. But they put them so far in the background of the Federation that it doesn't take hold as 'what the Federation is' in the same way as the State, Empire, and Republic themes do. And I believe this is part of why Fed RP can be so much more difficult to do. The PF is all over the place as to what the Federation is, they have intentionally made it mercurial enough that these themes cannot take hold as the dominant Fed identity. The dominant Fed identity is that they have no identity. While that points toward underlying problems in a nation, it is not concrete enough for it to be overly characterized.

I love what Source did with the Federation and the story they put in, but it focused on the particular elements of the Federation I find the most interesting. It still left the underlying aspects very mercurial. Whereas with the other three, Source went back to solidifying their tropes. The Federation PF in recent years has only solidified a couple perspectives within the Federation without ever trying to define it as a whole. (For example, Source's bit on Caldari absolutely brings it back to its neofascist underpinnings - even with the imagery. Which I personally appreciate, because perhaps it can help kill once and for all the Knights In Space version of Caldari that was so dominant for a while.)
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #13 on: 04 Oct 2014, 09:04 »

(For example, Source's bit on Caldari absolutely brings it back to its neofascist underpinnings - even with the imagery. Which I personally appreciate, because perhaps it can help kill once and for all the Knights In Space version of Caldari that was so dominant for a while.)

Word.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Re: Starting Over OOCly
« Reply #14 on: 04 Oct 2014, 10:31 »

(For example, Source's bit on Caldari absolutely brings it back to its neofascist underpinnings - even with the imagery. Which I personally appreciate, because perhaps it can help kill once and for all the Knights In Space version of Caldari that was so dominant for a while.)

Word.

I'm nt quite sure if it is bringing it back to 'neofascist underpinnings'. The PF I read back then allowed for many perspectives and resulting interpretations. And I think that was a good thing: it allowed for a realisic diversity in RP.
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