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[Merdaneth]

I look at it this way: if you allow into your corp someone who is willing to infiltrate an enemy and rip them off, what do you think will happen if and when they get pissed off with you?

I sure hope that doesn't go for shooting enemies too? 

[Darveses]

While I think that, IC, a "corptheft with reason" is more or less acceptable, I supremely despise the idea of a "corptheft of opportunity". Meaning that while it's kinda okay to plan and execute corpthefts and related stuff like GHSC does, I don't like petty thieves who steal for no obvious reason just out of greed.
 
Though I'm inclined to believe these people usually don't even try to find an IC reason for it.

Taking Misan's corptheft as an example, I'm actually quite happy with how things evolved. As far as I'm concerned he did it out of an in character grudge against Jade (I might be mistaken here, please correct), which is, even should it be misguided (again, don't know all facts, hence the vague wording), a perfectly viable reason. And while I don't really like the idea of using alts for it, it's good that he openly claimed responsibility with Misan as his main, because I think it would have damaged his viable IC motive if he hadn't.

Below the line, I don't like corptheft and wouldn't do it myself for OOC reasons, as I like to believe I respect the people I'm playing with - but it is under certain circumstances acceptable, yes.

[Casiella]

Never.

I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.

I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.

[Goshien]

Frankly RP wise, if I ever were to do it, I'd go the whole haul. Act it out, slip up, plant those clues in peoples head. I don't think you can really implant social grace and the ability to lie undetected is very much a skill. Someone catches on and you found yourselves a dirty rat, good RP. Someone doesn't and you get away, they can look back and see what they failed to pick up on, also good RP.

[Casiella]

Casi-p (me!) doesn't have much OOC ability to lie, so it's sort of academic for me. I wish I could get into this angle of the game more, but I'm not entirely unhappy about the fact that I can't deceive people very well...

[Goshien]

Yes it's difficult to translate social character traits when you yourself, don't have those traits. But I can give some advice to some would be ne'er-do-wells.

I've said the best lie is so close to the truth that you can't tell the difference. Take facts already known and twist them slightly, or omit one. A single detail missed or warped can give an entirely different impression then the barebones facts. Done this way, you might not even be confronted if they find out differently. Your human, you remember things slightly differently then anyone else. The more you have to make up, the less likely people are to believe you. This is doubly important if under scrutiny, as the person being lied to has an expected "True" answer already. If you know what their looking for, you can make up something close to that, but kicks out, or lessens your implication.

Basically just take what they, or you, already know to be true, and use that to create an impression other then what is true. Be calm, be reasonable, and don't be crazy.

Also, never reflex lie when caught in some wrongdoing. (Unless your character is nervous and would do so) Even a regular moral person does this sometimes, and it's stupid. Not only will what you say be stupid, but any further attempt to lie might prove pointless once you've already been caught lying.

In game it would be easier. You have time to think, and people can't see your face or body language. RP wise, this can be inserted as needed to give the clues. This is compensated somewhat by Eve's rampant paranoia. For RP purposes, remember that not many people can lie well, and a lot less can hide the body language the gives it away. On the flip side, aside from clashing facts, most people can't tell when their being lied to by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Myyona]

Never.

I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.

I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.

Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics. But the concept of entrusting somebody else with something you put value in, and them have them break that trust by taking it for themselves, is very well supported. Trust is a real element in EVE, death is not.

As such, it is perfectly valid to keep up ones moral standards regarding theft even when it comes to "virtual" theft. What one set as his moral standard is a personal thing which others cannot dismiss, it can change how much we want to associate with that person, though.

I personally do not really care for my virtual stuff in EVE, it is the property of CCP after all. But I do care if people can be trusted or not, as I want to have little association with those that can not.

I hope that came out right.

[The Cosmopolite]

Corp theft is clearly within the rules and is acceptable play in that sense.

I personally do not think it is socially acceptable to engage in corp theft for OOC reasons. I also remain to be persuaded that corp theft can be an entirely IC action when it is unilateral. The interface between IC and OOC is in this area very fuzzy and permeable indeed.

This boils down to me regarding unilateral corp theft as pretty much unacceptable socially and therefore having justifiable social consequences.

I will add that ever since POS came into the game things have gotten rather more complicated.

In the old days, when the only corp theft was emptying corp office hangars, it was rather more clear cut to me.

These days, with POS, which are assets hanging in space, it seems possible to query whether or not sabotage and theft of a corporate POS is 'corp theft' in the classical sense.

Personally, I think that if someone uses accesses given and accepted in good faith without them having set out to engage in an infiltration, it is still within the ambit of classical corp theft. I honestly haven't entirely made my mind up on other cases.


One of the problems with viewing things beyond classical corp theft as socially unacceptable may be the flaws with certain aspects of EVE game design.

There are cases in EVE where for players operating at a certain scale (often quite a large group in itself) the only way to affect an enemy materially may be the sabotage and theft option. When that's the case the question opens somewhat and it may be difficult to make an absolute judgement.

This is really a problem of scaling opportunities in EVE (for instance, Sov 2 has somewhat addressed the issue of 'things for raiders to do' but it falls far, far short - indeed, I suspect some can't believe how lightly territorialists have got off in Sov 2).

Ultimately, while I and those I play with will infiltrate to gain intelligence, we take the decision as players not to do so for purposes of sabotage and theft.

Cosmo

[Saxon Hawke]

I also dislike the incorruptible spies. The alt will never betray his main and their sharing of information is near-perfect.

From my experience, sometimes an alt will betray the main.

[Mizhara]

Seen it happen. Very recently, even. Some people manage to do it quite nicely, roleplaying two different characters with two very different mindsets. Which of course, will have to clash sometimes.

[Havohej]

I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.

Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics.

Yes, it is.  Not all crew of a capsuleer ship makes it out alive.  NPC ships are non-pod captains, they lose almost all hands when suddenly torn apart by a capsuleer's superior ships and weapons.  There is plenty of real death in EVE.  It's just not 'highlighted'.

[Mizhara]

I don't think any of my characters in any other game, be it fps, rts, rpg or whatever... have ever managed to rack up the killcount any of my combat characters in Eve has.

[Merdaneth]

I think the problem with corp theft is that it an OOC thing usually.

If people agree with the corp theft OOC but disagree with it IC, its usually fine, no hurt feelings either way. The other way around though tends to aggravate players. Thou shalt not steal from your corp is apparently an OOC agreement made when joining a corp, and hence violating it opens up players to OOC retribution.

[Casiella]

I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.

Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics.

Yes, it is.  Not all crew of a capsuleer ship makes it out alive.  NPC ships are non-pod captains, they lose almost all hands when suddenly torn apart by a capsuleer's superior ships and weapons.  There is plenty of real death in EVE.  It's just not 'highlighted'.

To be fair, I didn't think Myyona meant that quite like you might've understood it. I thought of it as pointing out that betraying trust in an IC sense almost always involves doing so OOCly as well, and that killing people IG doesn't directly translate into doing so IRL.

Which is a good point, I think. As I said, I've never been able to do this because I don't lie very well. That seems like a bit of a chicken and egg problem: I don't lie well because I don't like to do it, but I dislike doing it because (among other reasons) I don't do it well.

I still think, though, that someone can do so in a game without that making them a "bad" person morally, even if it's not via RP. CCP has made it quite clear that they consider this part of the game and within the rules, so if somebody's playstyle doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean they're somehow "evil".

[Myyona]

Yes, I wanted to highlight that in the case of corp theft it is more the breach of trust that upset people than the fact that virtual goods have been stolen.

Oh, and I do not think bad of the person who do corp thefts in EVE. They just do things differently than me and as long as it is within the rules of the game I am fine with it. I just do not want to give director roles to somebody who is known to be a bit weak on the trustworthy side.