Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Grr on 05 May 2010, 13:30
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I'd like to think most here feel that corp theft is unacceptable in most instances other than a genuine IC act. No doubt there are some who may disagree and I'd love to hear their views especially.
For example somebody emptying a hanger before defecting to the enemy I would consider perfectly acceptable behaviour that you would expect anybody defecting to consider. (although I'd always consider it fairly lame OOC it has to be said) Somebody skimming the wallet or hanger supplies to pass to a cause they sympathise with could be another fine example.
For many incidents that I've felt have crossed a line from good RP to genuine disrespectful tactics I've gone as far as passing IP, email and other details around to enemy organisations for offending pilots whenever we've encountered spies or corp thieves. On many occasions I've been only too happy to assist U'K, EM, PIE and many other organisations who agree that these tactics are not acceptable and cross referenced details with them to kill of several spies in the past. So I know that most of the groups I deal with feel the same as myself. However there are many others here who I have limited or no dealings with on these issues.
Let me hear your thoughts and I know it goes without saying but please keep this potentially flammable topic constructive ;)
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IC reasons for corp thief? Hm... that is a though one to answer, especially as corp thief is such an OoC thing to do: I move this pile from here to here and suddenly nobody than me have access to it, though it is supposedly still located within the same space station.
Could be fun if somebody actually were skimming corp funds and spend them on small arms and militants.
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Generally, I'm fine with it when its strictly kept to in-game assets and the like.
I don't think its acceptable when you hack out of game assets like forums, TS/Vent, etc. They're two different beasts.
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Corp theft sucks when it happens to you, but when you go and make people directors/give them roles you better really know these guys well and be prepared to lose your stuff.
It's just how the game works I guess. I've heard people working for several years to get trusted and respected to steal from an alliance. Those guys are really freaking patient/hardworking spais and that's what makes EVE pretty awesome.
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Generally, I'm fine with it when its strictly kept to in-game assets and the like.
I don't think its acceptable when you hack out of game assets like forums, TS/Vent, etc. They're two different beasts.
Yeah, I don't mind in-game shenanigans but out of game hacking of forums and 3rd party stuff is going too far. :/
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Considering two different scenarios:
1) Corptheft used as a weapon (or even simply asset acquisition :P) against a hostile or neutral corporation.
Thats always acceptable in my opinion.
2) Emptying the hangars because you are ragequitting a corporation, due to boredom or something, tenuous IC reason or not..
Robbing old friends is a bit lame, but if they aren't your friends then whatever..
In response to Ghost, theres a big difference imo between "hacking" ventrilo or forums and just getting access. Plus, it IS hilarious :D
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Simply put, yes. I operate on a pure "means to an end" principle.
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Oh sure, if you're given access or someone slips up their information then that's somewhat fine.
I'm talking about actual, real hacking attempts.
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Generally, I'm fine with it when its strictly kept to in-game assets and the like.
I don't think its acceptable when you hack out of game assets like forums, TS/Vent, etc. They're two different beasts.
This, with the proviso that copying out information you're given legitimately is another matter. I mean, if a spy is given a forum and voice account, then that's okay. If somebody steals a password, then it's not.
Also, only information relating to game stuff. Personal things about other players (names, addresses, deep dark personal secrets revealed to your corp mates) are just a dick move.
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In response to Ghost, theres a big difference imo between "hacking" ventrilo or forums and just getting access. Plus, it IS hilarious :D
So true.
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I don't have any particular problem with it in general. It's an accepted part of the game. Personally I don't (or wouldn't) engage in it without a good IC reasoning for doing so however. EVE would be less interesting if it didn't have proper rogues like Istvaan.
It's kind of lame to use throwaway alts to steal the stuff and never implicating whoever is actually pulling the strings. As that means there aren't any real consequences (besides a bigger wallet anyway) to their actions. It's more interesting if that is avoided, but as it isn't outside of game mechanics to do so I'm not particularly bothered by it in the end. Just a lost opportunity for some storylines.
Generally, I'm fine with it when its strictly kept to in-game assets and the like.
I don't think its acceptable when you hack out of game assets like forums, TS/Vent, etc. They're two different beasts.
This, with the proviso that copying out information you're given legitimately is another matter. I mean, if a spy is given a forum and voice account, then that's okay. If somebody steals a password, then it's not.
Also, only information relating to game stuff. Personal things about other players (names, addresses, deep dark personal secrets revealed to your corp mates) are just a dick move.
This really fits into a different topic, spying and infiltration, not corp theft. They are tied together, but discussing the spying aspect will lead this thread away from what I think Grr was aiming to discuss.
That said, in total agreement with what Casiella said above.
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Who gets to dictate if the corporate theft was rp motivated or not and why can't greed be roleplay?
Just curious.
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I think corp theft is perfectly acceptable RP wise. The end result (if successful) leads to your character being branded a thief. The use of throwaway alts for this purpose would signify to me that you are not RPing a legitimate character and are just a douche. Using a character and keeping them afterwards shows promise, even more so if you continue to pull it off after the first time.
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I would counter that the use of alts is perfectly in character. Capsuleers can switch bodies and take on an alter ego if so desired.
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Or have accomplices that disappear...
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I think this is probably one of those topics where the 'line' is going to be different for different people.
For me, the OOC aspect to corp-theft as a RPer is a bit :ugh:
Unless you have absolutely no OOC contact with your corpmates at all, at least some of the trust you're building up from them is going to be OOC as well as IC: to get to a position where you can steal from them, you're going to have to lie to them, by omission at least. The deception is not just by your character, but by you, the player.
Personally, I don't think I could do that, although I know others do, and it's part of the rich tapestry of Eve.
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Anything goes, IMHO, as long as it's not illegal in RL. In game actions are in-game actions, and spying on voice comms, etc, is part of that.
That said, I don't do it myself, because I value being trusted over the occasional bit of loot.
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Yeah. As long as it violates neither RL law nor (more importantly) CONCORD law, it's fine. :D
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Corp theft is the reason I play EVE (The Ubiqua Seraph story - <3 GH-SC). Funny that I've never actually done one...
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Corp theft is the reason I play EVE (The Ubiqua Seraph story - <3 GH-SC). Funny that I've never actually done one...
Not yet.
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:yar:
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/me removes all assets from places where Du'uma Fiisi has a corphangar. Also keeps checking activity status in-game to find out when would be a good place to empty the hangars and corpquit.
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We didn't give you director roles already, did we? :eek:
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As someone who's been the CEO of a corp that was the target of a fairly well-planned and pervasive infiltration and corp theft, I say it's acceptable when you can get away with it.
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We didn't give you director roles already, did we? :eek:
Well, Der's got full hangar access, and access to some of the corp wallet. Miz got access to some hangars. I just need to tally up how much it's worth, so I can tell whether it's profitable to grab it all and move them all into TBR and TWR.
/me shifty eyes.
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Never.
I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.
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That must be a rhetorical...or something, because I don't see a question mark, nor would I dare want to make assumptions about why you do...anything. I can tell you that not everyone wants to play the same moral standard they have in the real world. That said, playing a certain way will render its own consequence one way or another.
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Never.
I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.
Because neither you nor the person you are taking the pixels from actually own them?
To me, it comes down to the fact that it is a game, and "stealing" is part of it.
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I would counter that the use of alts is perfectly in character. Capsuleers can switch bodies and take on an alter ego if so desired.
I actually don't believe in that. There is certainly no precedent for it in game mechanics. You are telling me unskilled alts deliberately lose their skills and change core attributes like memory and intelligence? Also, in most cases, the player simply continues controlling the main. I don't think they are continually switching bodies across the stars. Also, there is no chance of discovering body switches in-game.
I also dislike the incorruptible spies. The alt will never betray his main and their sharing of information is near-perfect.
Using actual spies, great. Using alt spies, not so great.
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I look at it this way: if you allow into your corp someone who is willing to infiltrate an enemy and rip them off, what do you think will happen if and when they get pissed off with you?
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I look at it this way: if you allow into your corp someone who is willing to infiltrate an enemy and rip them off, what do you think will happen if and when they get pissed off with you?
I sure hope that doesn't go for shooting enemies too? ;)
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While I think that, IC, a "corptheft with reason" is more or less acceptable, I supremely despise the idea of a "corptheft of opportunity". Meaning that while it's kinda okay to plan and execute corpthefts and related stuff like GHSC does, I don't like petty thieves who steal for no obvious reason just out of greed.
Though I'm inclined to believe these people usually don't even try to find an IC reason for it.
Taking Misan's corptheft as an example, I'm actually quite happy with how things evolved. As far as I'm concerned he did it out of an in character grudge against Jade (I might be mistaken here, please correct), which is, even should it be misguided (again, don't know all facts, hence the vague wording), a perfectly viable reason. And while I don't really like the idea of using alts for it, it's good that he openly claimed responsibility with Misan as his main, because I think it would have damaged his viable IC motive if he hadn't.
Below the line, I don't like corptheft and wouldn't do it myself for OOC reasons, as I like to believe I respect the people I'm playing with - but it is under certain circumstances acceptable, yes.
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Never.
I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.
I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.
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Frankly RP wise, if I ever were to do it, I'd go the whole haul. Act it out, slip up, plant those clues in peoples head. I don't think you can really implant social grace and the ability to lie undetected is very much a skill. Someone catches on and you found yourselves a dirty rat, good RP. Someone doesn't and you get away, they can look back and see what they failed to pick up on, also good RP.
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Casi-p (me!) doesn't have much OOC ability to lie, so it's sort of academic for me. I wish I could get into this angle of the game more, but I'm not entirely unhappy about the fact that I can't deceive people very well... ;)
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Yes it's difficult to translate social character traits when you yourself, don't have those traits. But I can give some advice to some would be ne'er-do-wells.
I've said the best lie is so close to the truth that you can't tell the difference. Take facts already known and twist them slightly, or omit one. A single detail missed or warped can give an entirely different impression then the barebones facts. Done this way, you might not even be confronted if they find out differently. Your human, you remember things slightly differently then anyone else. The more you have to make up, the less likely people are to believe you. This is doubly important if under scrutiny, as the person being lied to has an expected "True" answer already. If you know what their looking for, you can make up something close to that, but kicks out, or lessens your implication.
Basically just take what they, or you, already know to be true, and use that to create an impression other then what is true. Be calm, be reasonable, and don't be crazy.
Also, never reflex lie when caught in some wrongdoing. (Unless your character is nervous and would do so) Even a regular moral person does this sometimes, and it's stupid. Not only will what you say be stupid, but any further attempt to lie might prove pointless once you've already been caught lying.
In game it would be easier. You have time to think, and people can't see your face or body language. RP wise, this can be inserted as needed to give the clues. This is compensated somewhat by Eve's rampant paranoia. For RP purposes, remember that not many people can lie well, and a lot less can hide the body language the gives it away. On the flip side, aside from clashing facts, most people can't tell when their being lied to by someone who knows what they are doing.
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Never.
I would not steal in real life, why would I change that part of my moral standards for a video game.
I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.
Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics. But the concept of entrusting somebody else with something you put value in, and them have them break that trust by taking it for themselves, is very well supported. Trust is a real element in EVE, death is not.
As such, it is perfectly valid to keep up ones moral standards regarding theft even when it comes to "virtual" theft. What one set as his moral standard is a personal thing which others cannot dismiss, it can change how much we want to associate with that person, though.
I personally do not really care for my virtual stuff in EVE, it is the property of CCP after all. But I do care if people can be trusted or not, as I want to have little association with those that can not.
I hope that came out right. :)
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Corp theft is clearly within the rules and is acceptable play in that sense.
I personally do not think it is socially acceptable to engage in corp theft for OOC reasons. I also remain to be persuaded that corp theft can be an entirely IC action when it is unilateral. The interface between IC and OOC is in this area very fuzzy and permeable indeed.
This boils down to me regarding unilateral corp theft as pretty much unacceptable socially and therefore having justifiable social consequences.
I will add that ever since POS came into the game things have gotten rather more complicated.
In the old days, when the only corp theft was emptying corp office hangars, it was rather more clear cut to me.
These days, with POS, which are assets hanging in space, it seems possible to query whether or not sabotage and theft of a corporate POS is 'corp theft' in the classical sense.
Personally, I think that if someone uses accesses given and accepted in good faith without them having set out to engage in an infiltration, it is still within the ambit of classical corp theft. I honestly haven't entirely made my mind up on other cases.
One of the problems with viewing things beyond classical corp theft as socially unacceptable may be the flaws with certain aspects of EVE game design.
There are cases in EVE where for players operating at a certain scale (often quite a large group in itself) the only way to affect an enemy materially may be the sabotage and theft option. When that's the case the question opens somewhat and it may be difficult to make an absolute judgement.
This is really a problem of scaling opportunities in EVE (for instance, Sov 2 has somewhat addressed the issue of 'things for raiders to do' but it falls far, far short - indeed, I suspect some can't believe how lightly territorialists have got off in Sov 2).
Ultimately, while I and those I play with will infiltrate to gain intelligence, we take the decision as players not to do so for purposes of sabotage and theft.
Cosmo
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I also dislike the incorruptible spies. The alt will never betray his main and their sharing of information is near-perfect.
From my experience, sometimes an alt will betray the main.
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Seen it happen. Very recently, even. Some people manage to do it quite nicely, roleplaying two different characters with two very different mindsets. Which of course, will have to clash sometimes.
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I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.
Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics.
Yes, it is. Not all crew of a capsuleer ship makes it out alive. NPC ships are non-pod captains, they lose almost all hands when suddenly torn apart by a capsuleer's superior ships and weapons. There is plenty of real death in EVE. It's just not 'highlighted'.
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I don't think any of my characters in any other game, be it fps, rts, rpg or whatever... have ever managed to rack up the killcount any of my combat characters in Eve has.
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I think the problem with corp theft is that it an OOC thing usually.
If people agree with the corp theft OOC but disagree with it IC, its usually fine, no hurt feelings either way. The other way around though tends to aggravate players. Thou shalt not steal from your corp is apparently an OOC agreement made when joining a corp, and hence violating it opens up players to OOC retribution.
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I don't kill in real life, either. But I do in a game.
Very flawed analogy, and I bet you know it, as the concept of taking somebody's life for real is not supported by the EVE game mechanics.
Yes, it is. Not all crew of a capsuleer ship makes it out alive. NPC ships are non-pod captains, they lose almost all hands when suddenly torn apart by a capsuleer's superior ships and weapons. There is plenty of real death in EVE. It's just not 'highlighted'.
To be fair, I didn't think Myyona meant that quite like you might've understood it. I thought of it as pointing out that betraying trust in an IC sense almost always involves doing so OOCly as well, and that killing people IG doesn't directly translate into doing so IRL.
Which is a good point, I think. As I said, I've never been able to do this because I don't lie very well. That seems like a bit of a chicken and egg problem: I don't lie well because I don't like to do it, but I dislike doing it because (among other reasons) I don't do it well.
I still think, though, that someone can do so in a game without that making them a "bad" person morally, even if it's not via RP. CCP has made it quite clear that they consider this part of the game and within the rules, so if somebody's playstyle doesn't match mine, that doesn't mean they're somehow "evil".
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Yes, I wanted to highlight that in the case of corp theft it is more the breach of trust that upset people than the fact that virtual goods have been stolen.
Oh, and I do not think bad of the person who do corp thefts in EVE. They just do things differently than me and as long as it is within the rules of the game I am fine with it. I just do not want to give director roles to somebody who is known to be a bit weak on the trustworthy side. :)
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Director roles are a bad idea anyway... it's like giving somebody root. :(
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I realize much time has passed, however what my weigh-in is is this.
I find that this (bolded parts specifically):
For many incidents that I've felt have crossed a line from good RP to genuine disrespectful tactics I've gone as far as passing IP, email and other details around to enemy organisations for offending pilots whenever we've encountered spies or corp thieves.
is far less acceptable than ingame corp theft.
Corp theft just is. It's no different than scamming people out of isk. It's part of the game. Not only is it part of the game, but CCP endorses it. Like someone else here mentioned, the GH-SC really set the stage for what is and isn't acceptable in EVE, with the Goons taking it to the next level.
The joy of EVE is that it's a completely cut-throat environment. There is no PvE in this game in the grand scheme of things. You're competing for markets. You're competing for salvage. You're competing for 'roids. You're shooting each other out of the skies.
Corp theft is just a prime example of corporate and personal greed. It happens irl in a cut-throat capitalist society. It happens in game. It's realistic and there's nothing wrong with it, so long as it all stays in the game.
As Ghost (I believe) put it, the line is drawn for me at the edge of the gamespace. Hacking accounts/tracing people/giving out personal information is, imo, crossing the line.
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Actually, as an addendum, I would like to put forth a question to the OP.
As one who is of the mindset that corptheft is unacceptable - even when entirely ingame, how do you conversely justify internally the OOG datamining?
This is not a flame or anything, this is a legitimate question that I am curious of. What makes the two things different that makes one (completely ingame) unacceptable and the other (which is primarily OOG) acceptable as a response?
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For many incidents that I've felt have crossed a line from good RP to genuine disrespectful tactics I've gone as far as passing IP, email and other details around to enemy organisations for offending pilots whenever we've encountered spies or corp thieves.
I've bolded the part of the quote which answers your question. We've only done it for genuine assholes who would have no issue actually hacking our accounts if they could and who have crossed the line from an ingame decision (which we agree is part of eve) to being a real asshat.
And yes I've passed details to allies AND enemies you will note. I take great pride in trying to protect the RP community from those who would seek to harm it. I've done it for years and have no plans to stop.
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/me hugs Grr.
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For many incidents that I've felt have crossed a line from good RP to genuine disrespectful tactics I've gone as far as passing IP, email and other details around to enemy organisations for offending pilots whenever we've encountered spies or corp thieves.
I've bolded the part of the quote which answers your question. We've only done it for genuine assholes who would have no issue actually hacking our accounts if they could and who have crossed the line from an ingame decision (which we agree is part of eve) to being a real asshat.
And yes I've passed details to allies AND enemies you will note. I take great pride in trying to protect the RP community from those who would seek to harm it. I've done it for years and have no plans to stop.
I don't feel it answers my question. Would that have no issue actually hacking your accounts or have they done it? To me the line of reasoning could be reworded as "We are justified in torturing prisoners at GitMo because they are suspected terrorists."
What constitutes crossing the line to "being a real asshat"?
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Case by case basis but one sure way is if I feel lets say that they might do it again to somebody else. Those who know me will know that I'm a sensible enough person with the RP community at heart so guess you will have to just trust me (or not, neither way matters to me really)
It should be pointed out that this isn't some solitary crusader either. Some of the biggest RP corps and alliances in eve have worked with me to eliminate troublemakers before.
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Of course they might do it again, they're corp thieves. A burglar is very likely going to rob someone again. Working in the gamespace is one thing - informing people of offenders. Datamining their IP address? Sharing emails? You mean to tell you mean don't see that as equivocal if not worse than the initial offense of the corp theft within the gamespace?
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No I don't.
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I do. A whine thread on C&P or IGS to 'out' a corp thief is one thing, passing out someone's personal information is entirely another and quite inappropriate. It's a game... if someone steals some pixels, they're easy enough to replace.
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No I don't.
I agree with Havohej.
Also I would adore to hear the justification that one uses to bridge that little bit of cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
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Grr, I hope I misunderstand.
Do you think that IG "enemies" (corp thieves and spies), playing according to CCP's rules, should have their IP & email addresses and other RL identifying information passed around, in possible violation of the laws of many jurisdictions (particularly in Europe and the US)?
Can you explain what would qualify a person for this sort of treatment, if not simply stealing from hangars or passing on intel from forums, chat, and voice?
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If your looking for a specific set of conditions you're out of luck, as I said its on a case by case basis. I could name an example however.
Angelonico, posted pictures of overstretch anus's on the Amarr faction warfare forums. After some heavy modding details were promptly sent to a number of RP corps (enemies and friends) who took precautions to ban him from their vent and forums. It didn't solve the problem of course as many here know you can change emails and even IPs but certainly I feel protected part of the RP community from offensive material.
Worst I remember doing to actual corp thieves is warning corps who they have joined.
I think this is being blown out of proportion somewhat or a few people are suddenly realising what steps we've had to take to protect this community over the years. Either way I make no apologies especially when I've played a tiny part in activity done by some of the biggest RP corps and alliances in eve, some that have been doing this for near 7 years.
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That sounds like you had to handle a situation that didn't really have much to do with corp theft or espionage, which probably would have avoided a lot of the "OMG DRAMAZ" posts earlier in this thread (including mine :) ).
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To go back to an earlier part of the discussion: It's true for most corp theft that OOC parts are required. I don't think that means that because it requires OOC parts, it is impossible for corp theft to be IC.
Most parts of the game involve both IC and OOC components. Is it the fault of the infiltrator that most (all?) RP corps involve an OOC measure of trust? I think it is more that the system just isn't perfect. It's unfortunate, but looking at it another way: If OOC and IC could be separate enough (Not sure how possible that is. Would take some serious commitment to it on all sides) it wouldn't be an issue. If corp hangars etc are IC, then corp theft should be possible entirely IC too. It is the character that is doing it. That doesn't mean you don't kick them, and tell any new corp they try to join about it. In an ideal world, the player behind a corp thief would be able to give people an OOC heads up, maybe. But there aren't many corps where the OOC trust extends that far. :)
My opinion would be that if someone has solid IC motivation for their betrayal, it's a legitimate path to take. Obviously in this case it can be hard to seperate IC and OOC - fair enough. Closing the door on it, though, removes some interesting RP possibilities.
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I'm of the opinion that if someone has a score to settle IC and a grudge against someone, then it's perfectly fine.
I'll never advocate hacking forums or ventrilo, or malicious stuff like shoutcasting people's voice comms or DDOSing the shit out of people's forums or voip.
If someone acts IC, has a score to settle and rips someone off then it's perfectly acceptable in my own opinion. However if someone's just throwing a wobbler because they had a bad day or an argument with their CEO then it's pretty lame.
Pre-meditated in character theft is fine, so long as it has a motive and it's not taken out of character with malicious intent.
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I think that's the most respectable opinion yet.
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I could go along with it too.
Sadly, I think it's quite rare that it is truly the case that a corp theft is of that genuinely IC character.
Definitely a respectable position though.
Cos
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It's not entirely surprising that roleplayers find corporate theft respectable as long as it tells a good story, but certainly adds a sense of ambiguity to the matter. Who decides what act is roleplay and isn't?
And more importantly, for those of you who do find the act tolerable, provided a thief had (in your eyes) a respectable motivation for performing their dastardly act and share your ideology, would you hire them and trust them?
As a player that roleplays a character, I don't differentiate theft as in-character or out-of-character because it's not my place to insinuate whether they are roleplaying the act or not. However, when they interrupt my gameplay, I respond to it both as a player (annoyance) and a character (hatred).
Hypothetical scenario : A corp thief gains moderate level access in a corporation, including as a moderator of a forum that they use to plan and strategize for wars and ops. A corporation of significant threat declares war on said corporation, and simultaneously the corp thief strikes, stealing valuable strategic assets, providing vital corporate intel to the enemy. They also delete every post on the forums or maybe make private forums visible to the public.
Because the forums are used for in-game purposes, and access was given, is the act of disrupting their forums a valid disruption tactic?
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I'm okay with the intel piece of that. Deleting the posts or making it public to all seems like vandalism to me, and I'm not comfortable with that.
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My problem would primarily be that they did it the dumb way, the smart way would be to edit someone's account and give them access to the forums that was a member of the attacking corp (the person would have had to have registered before the war a bit though).
Otherwise, deleting the posts is a bit douchey, making it public not as douchey (easy enough to fix), also would depend on what content was deleted. I wouldn't have an issue so much if the content they deleted was strategic, but if it was like "how to" guides or some shit that were there to help new members or whatnot that would kinda irritate me.
That makes for an interesting (and entertaining) conundrum.
The theft itself I still wouldn't have a problem with - I don't even give two shits about the IC/OOC motivations. If someone steals from me, then it was my own damn fault for trusting them really, since I don't really talk to most players OOG unless I have already known them from another venue, save for maybe 4-5 of you and these forums. If I feel a bit of opportunism and opt to yoink some shit from a corp and high-tail it out, then I will do so.
I could even be motivated in the right circumstances (were I in a large alliance for instance) to make an alt on a different account, infiltrate a corp I am already in, rob that corp's assets with the alt, funnel them into the main, and delete the alt.
Just because I felt like it.
It's a game.
Granted -- I come from a place where even prior to EVE in any of my MMO/Gaming-In-General you didn't hand people sensitive shit. There's no reason for everyone to have access to your top-end T2 BPOs that are now an even greater rarity. There's no reason for everyone to have access to all your T2 and T3 ships/modules.
There's no valid reason that even a moderate number of people get to get their grubby little mitts on anything of value. That's the fault of the leadership if they get all their shit stolen, given the layers upon layers upon layers upon layers of security the game offers.
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Now I will ask you to consider, what if the corp theft was done by a corp/alliance that had a ROE with that it won't use spies/corp thieves etc.
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The whole idea of having ROE is moronic.
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Now I will ask you to consider, what if the corp theft was done by a corp/alliance that had a ROE with that it won't use spies/corp thieves etc.
I think that I agree in part with Cyshade. Though only in part. That part being that I think having RoE for any reason other than to look better than you are (much like a nation IRL) is a bit silly. Holding to it tightly will cause you to lose battles.
The only RoE that I think is of any value is the NBSI/NRDS so long as you are in an area that it is actually enforced. Those are pretty uncommon. (Also, NRDS when you have more money than God, for instance like the Fraction, also makes sense. Because losing a single ship then setting the corp/alliance Red doesn't really cost you a damn thing.)
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The whole idea of having ROE is moronic.
Most of the oldest and biggest roleplay corps and alliances in eve will disagree with you but this is a separate argument.
I happen to think a ROE that says you wont use spies and corp thieves says a lot about your corp/alliance and would earn it trust and respect both IC and OOC.
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I happen to think a ROE that says you wont use spies and corp thieves says a lot about your corp/alliance and would earn it trust and respect both IC and OOC.
...as does saying that you won't commit to unknown tests on the population of your country, and that anyone who lives within your borders has the benefit of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
None of that, however, means you actually do those things.
That's why RoEs are stupid. They're stupid because of the same reason that politician saying "No new taxes!" or "We will cut pork barrel spending!" is stupid.
Sure, it's great and it's respectable, but the fact of the matter is everyone knows that in the proper circumstances you're just going to chuck that aside, and the proper circumstances in a game like EVE could be as simple as "I didn't have any cheese to eat with my wine today. . ."
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That's where the respect comes from, sticking to the ROE.
We had a ROE with Electus Matari for our year long war in Vigilia Valeria for example. Both sides respected each other partly because of it and it eliminated many of things that might cause OOC hostilities or ill feeling. Most importantly it allowed us to focus on the stuff we found fun, the story based RP and the fighting.
To each his own however.
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[admin]Please refrain from calling policies 'stupid' as it isn't constructive. Feel free to describe alternatives that you feel are more effective.[/admin]
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That's where the respect comes from, sticking to the ROE
No, the respect comes from not getting caught.
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Honestly, the game lets you do these things, and CCP has clearly stated that corporate theft is part of the social engineering game that many "Get rich quickly" players do. There are also the roleplayers who choose to do so in order to satisfy an IC goal or storyline.
Is it wrong? Yes. Is it against the rules? No. Since this is entertainment software that we're all playing, there doesn't need to be an in-game committee that acts as a watchdog for corporate theft. It's up to the CEO to determine if his or her newest employee is trustworthy, acceptable, etc. Anything out of the realm of EVE Online is different, and should be treated as such.
EDIT: Then again, after seeing some of the other posts here, I do think corp theft due to OOC hate is pretty messed up.
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How about corp theft due to pure griefing? e.g. "for the lulz"?
I want to reiterate, in case I'm ever in the same corp as any of you in the future, I'm not really good at deception so I don't really even bother with it. Fear not. :halo: