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[Malcolm Khross]

I've been a bit of an political economy nerd recently (as exhibited by my IC posts about structural violence and poverty >_>), so with that in mind, are we sure the Disassociated are exclusively criminal underworld stuff?

No, no. The Disassociated are really anyone who doesn't claim an identity to one of the megacorporations. It could be someone who has been passed between corporations, someone who has fallen out of the system (for whatever reason) or criminals.

Like, the Homeless item. How are the homeless/poor in the State organized, and where do they live? I've pictured it as a bit of a have/have-not situation (versus the more subjective and varying definitions of social class in the Fed). Shanty towns? Do the Disassociated only become tied to the criminal underworld because people like the Guristas move in to control these shanty towns?

I imagine most of the homeless live in the 10% of the State not owned by the megacorporations, with stragglers living here and there in the various megacorporate regions. It isn't hard to suspect that opportunistic profit-seekers would capitalize on the desperation of the homeless and Disassociated in the 10% region with meager housing offers in exchange for "under the table" work and so on.

Secondly, how do the Practicals justify their actions to their populace? Pure out propaganda? Same as Fed coating their actions in principle. As players we have a LOT of OOC knowledge that might be sheltered from the actual inhabitants of EVE. For example, with the Protein delicacy fiasco, the fact that they were made from biological waste was just not told to the SuVee public, so they could paint the Fed people as being reactionary for no reason. To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.

The PF suggests that literally every Caldari is indoctrinated with their corporation pretty heavily (and seemlessly), with the exception of the Disassociated. I imagine the white-washing propaganda from the corporations is pretty heavy in every bloc, with each corporation appealing to the general feel of its politics. (Patriots using patriotic and militaristic propaganda, Practicals using market efficiency and state of living improvement propaganda, Liberals using international realtionship and open market gain propaganda).

The "honor" bit of the Caldari derives mostly from their concept of honor. It is an honor to serve in the community. It is an honor to sacrifice oneself in service to the whole. It is an honor to do all you can for the State. It is an honor to do as you told as best as you are able. Etcetera, etcetera.

Perhaps the honour bit is a player-construct, because of all the Japanese influences? Potentially, the Caldari moral system is radically different from ours as players (for example, not caring about those who are seen as 'weak')

It's different, sure, but not amoral. For example, it's not about "not caring about those seen as weak" it's about understanding the need to let the weak perish in order for the strong (and contributing) to survive. Remember where they are from (Caldari Prime) and the conditions under which they lived for so long. Conditions which required that everyone work together in order for the majority to survive and prosper, those that are unable to contribute or choose not to are seen as a taxing burden that will cost the whole if they are not simply severed. (Think on a "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" mindset).

[Ken]

I've been a bit of an political economy nerd recently (as exhibited by my IC posts about structural violence and poverty >_>), so with that in mind, are we sure the Disassociated are exclusively criminal underworld stuff?

No, and I have missed something, but I don't think that's been the consensus in this thread.

Like, the Homeless item. How are the homeless/poor in the State organized, and where do they live? I've pictured it as a bit of a have/have-not situation (versus the more subjective and varying definitions of social class in the Fed). Shanty towns? Do the Disassociated only become tied to the criminal underworld because people like the Guristas move in to control these shanty towns?

It's a big cluster.  How are they organized and where do they live?  There are a million good answers to the question, not just a few, and all of them are valid.  You shouldn't look at the "disassociated" as a class or bloc.  It is a term to describe individuals and corporations that have fallen from favor/influence.  You're a young Caldari (with average evaluations and no family connections) who decides to take a risk and sign on to a new mining firm at age 16, but by the time you turn 20, a few accidents have stalled production, the investors have pulled out, and the stock has tanked. 

Your firm's parent mega, let's say... Ishukone, can't justify a buy-out and the company you signed your life to goes bankrupt to be broken up and auctioned off.  Even though you're a healthy and level-headed young 20-something, you now have the misfortune of having worked for a failing company.  Maybe you didn't work hard enough?  Since your corporation tanked, the management must have been sub-par... and they hired you.  Your shot at advancement isn't looking to good as you try and find another corporation to call home.  And if you can't find a place willing to sign you, where's the room and board (and professional development) going to come from?

Your career has stalled and you'll probably end up working below your potential at a no-name subsidiary for a long while yet.  Them's the breaks.  You could have gone crawling to Mama Mega on your 16th birthday and begged for a life-contract and all the stability that comes from a life of administrative/factory/maintenance/janitorial work, but you wanted to see space first and live more adventurously.  It was a risk that might have paid off, but it didn't, and now you're in line with the rest of the disassociated, every one of you with their own story to tell, waiting to see what you can get out of a second-hand life.

This is one simple example, but the point is that you would be wrong to assume "disassociated" means a gaggle of dirty homeless in rags waiting in a queue to be scooped up by the Guristas.

Secondly, how do the Practicals justify their actions to their populace? Pure out propaganda? Same as Fed coating their actions in propaganda.

FTFY.  And, yes, of course.

As players we have a LOT of OOC knowledge that might be sheltered from the actual inhabitants of EVE. For example, with the Protein delicacy fiasco, the fact that they were made from biological waste was just not told to the SuVee public, so they could paint the Fed people as being reactionary for no reason.

Keep in mind the general public can see the IGS.  If it's been discussed there, they know about it.

To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.

Define honor.

Perhaps the honour bit is a player-construct, because of all the Japanese influences? Potentially, the Caldari moral system is radically different from ours as players (for example, not caring about those who are seen as 'weak')

It doesn't have anything to do with not caring for the "weak".  It has to do with ostracizing those who are seen as selfish or who aren't doing their part (as much as they are able).  See the below?

The notion of individuality, so prized by the Gallente, tended to be viewed by the Caldari as little more than selfish blindness to the grander scheme of things, and was frowned upon by the vast majority of their leaders as well as the industrious masses that made up the civilian populace. After the first Gallente-Caldari war, the Chief Executive Panel – the corporate heads making up the Caldari State’s ruling body – went even further with this ideology, soon enough taking their seat as polar opposites to their hated nemeses. While it may seem tempting to ascribe this to the ideological rubberbanding sometimes experienced by newly independent states, there is a great deal of historical data that suggests that even as far back as the time of the Raata-Oryioni empire thousands of years ago, the people who would later become the Caldari were already highly collectivistic in outlook and action.

[Seriphyn]

Thanks, both very helpful posts.

To push the grimdark boundaries a bit, how does the State treat the mentally impaired (and physically impaired assuming that's not screened before birth)? I imagine families will pay for their support, but if they can't support them...

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Syylara, my view of it has always been that corporations serve a cultural purpose at least as much as a business one. As part of that, I have always felt that publicly, and as a general situation, (that is, what people view as the 'normal' employee-corporation relationship) involves a social contract between employee and company. Keeping in mind that these are not just businesses, but also essentially governments in and of themselves, from a local, to a planetary and interplanetary level.

I'm quite on board with that, I view the State as something of a confederacy of interwoven nations.  I also prefer the idea that the corporations compete to some degree to attract the best talent, which means that changing which mega you work for should be possible.

So, as long as you take care of the corporations (uphold its interests, etc), the corporation takes care of you. Other ways of doing things might work for a business, but they don't work for a society (and that's basically what each corporation is, in and of itself). Also, since to a large degree, on the level of individual Caldari, the local economy is probably also going straight back to the corporation (your disposable income is probably mostly corporate scrip you spend with your own corporation, you pension fund is run by your corporation, your hairdresser works for a wholly-owned corporate subsidiary, etc.) the corporate has an incentive to keep workers happy and well paid. Their financial health is in part the way countries stay financially healthy (money moving around a lot, workforce/productivity is a major asset) in addition to selling products and services.

Now, this is just a general - and maybe even idealized - case. Obviously they will have people around the edges, dirty dealing in private, etc. But that's where I think the expectation is for most Caldari.

In the overall, I agree and this was highlighted in the YC110 May Revolution that swept through the State

The Caldari Constructions Armor Forge on Piak III was not unique in experiencing a worker's protest on the second day of May. Facilities in the Aikantoh and Lituria systems were also the scene of revolts and a general shut-down as workers employed by Caldari Constructions coordinated a protest against working conditions and the general lot of the Caldari wage-worker...As news of the revolutionary events on Piak III spread through the Caldari State, worker revolts broke out in the territories of all the mega-corporations – with a notable exception being the Ishukone Corporation's holdings, where little civil disorder was experienced.

I think that "contract" rite of passage as you say, when a Caldari grows up and has to find a place in the society (most often in the parent's megacorporation for vaious obvious reasons as said above), might not be a lot more than what we already have today in most countries in terms of administration. When you end up being an adult RL - well, I do not know how it works in other countries but it is probably similar - you have some paperwork to fill to get on the public records, for taxes, voting rights, etc etc. I doubt that the Caldari do it a lot differently, the only main difference is that you "finalize" your life contract with one of the megas instead of the state.

I certainly think that there would be an equivalent to a Social Security Number which keeps track of your work history and other employment matters (I'd imagine voting rights comes more through owning stock).  I just don't see the lifetime part fitting in with a highly competitive, meritocratic culture.

It seems also obvious that some Caldari work for unaligned entities like the CPD, house of records, etc. What do you think of that ? Are these people still hosted by their native mega while working for a "public" corporation ? Or do these public corporations work like any mega and provide everything the employee needs ? Also, we have the specific case of the Navy for the state military.

Well, like the linked/quoted Evelopedia articles above discussed, CEP representatives most certainly still work for their mega while CBT figures are expected to move towards impartiality.  HoR I'd see as being nonpartisan, though organized in divisions which each interface with a particular mega (along with one that transcribes and records CEP and CBT panels, hearings, etc).  The CEP does "determine the budgets for the State's few government agencies, such as the Navy and the Tribunal" so it would make sense that this includes all of the same expected levels of compensation as would be true of a normal employee.

With the CPD, I seem to recall some consternation over the idea that it was packed with patriot-aligned members, though I can't find that at the moment.  So it seems that in this case, it is perceived at least by some that members are retaining their loyalty to their respective megas or at least their partisan factional interests.

[Ken]

Thanks, both very helpful posts.

To push the grimdark boundaries a bit, how does the State treat the mentally impaired (and physically impaired assuming that's not screened before birth)? I imagine families will pay for their support, but if they can't support them...

Mmm, that is a good one.  I prefer a fairly :grimdark: view wherein eugenics is accepted and applied widely.  Certainly there are a great many common defects and deficiencies that can be remedied with prostheses (consider also the possibility of genetic and memetic "prosthetic" therapies).  If nothing can be done, however, well...

It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks and become one with all the people.

These are the same people who started mass producing babies in labs because they wanted to improve their demographic stats after all.

[Malcolm Khross]

Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.

[Ken]

Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.

And to sacrifice through service if possible.

"You'll never be a great worker or leader, son, but you will be remembered as a hero for volunteering to go into the radiation zone  and help recover the corporation's assets. Your mother and I and the whole work unit are so proud of you. For the State, my boy!"

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Going to have to agree with Ken on this one. I imagine that if a family is incapable of (or chooses not to) supporting a handicapped or otherwise debilitated person, then it would be ingrained into a Caldari's thought process that it is their honorable and noble final duty to the people to sacrifice them.

However, do take into account that as society becomes more and more advanced, more fields of employment open up which rely less on physical labor capacity.  Stephen Hawking has certainly contributed a great deal to humanity despite his significant disabilities, for example.  This is partly a result of increased capacity to support an individual in overcoming mobility and other limitations (powered wheelchair, speech generator) as well as the far more active fields of astrophysics and thermodynamics than existed in say, the 16th Century.

Could he have realistically been a contemporary of Copernicus, Galileo or Newton?  Not likely.

On the other hand, there might be a lot less confusion and controversy over issues such as traumatic injury putting someone on indefinite life-support in a coma.  It would be the "honorable" thing to do to relieve them from being a burden and to focus on the life they led without a long and mournful epilogue to their life.

[Katrina Oniseki]

To me, I find it confusing how the Caldari are possibly honorable (though it says they are 'more unscrupulous than the Gallente') but have a so-called "unethical" corporation.

As I said to you in steam chat, it's not the same kind of honor as us Westerners might assume. It's not talking about being a white knight, complete with chivalry and feeding the poor your own dinner.

It's honor in the manner of loyalty to your word, loyalty to your corp and family. Diligence and determination to do what must be done, to never give up just because something is hard or might make you feel uneasy doing it. Making sacrifices for the good of the whole, etc...

That's the kind of honor I think of when I think of the Caldari. You don't have to be a good guy to be honorable.

[Hamish Grayson]

Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?

[Ken]

Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?

None I can think of, but being civil and providing active assistance/welfare are different things.  Was there an opinion here that made you think someone feels the Caldari are unkind to the less fortunate?

[Seriphyn]

Well, I pointed out that there's lesser concept of charity in the State. If it's an organized meritocracy, if you're at the bottom and poor, apparently it's seen as deserving.

[Ilsenae Alexandros]

Actually Caldari culture reminds me most of the Japanese.

[Ken]

Can anyone point to a real culture were not being kind to those less fortunate than yourself is valued?

America?

Wow, that's a cynical viewpoint.  Do you really believe that?

Re: Seriphyn --

Charity is less necessary and thus less important/valued in a society where the basic needs of law-abiding citizens are provided by the government (corporation in this case). I think the numbers of undeserving poor in a functioning meritocracy would be lower by a significant margin than in any nation modeled on a modern Western democratic republic.  That this was not the case in the State up to YC110 could be seen as a big reason for the Provist movement's initial success and survival up to the present.  According to the guiding political philosophy of the State, there shouldn't be *undeserving* disenfranchised or disassociated people.  We can appreciate the naivety of that idea, but it is nevertheless the fundamental principle of meritocracy.

[Mithfindel]

I wrote a longpost but then decided the better of it (too tired, I likely get incoherent).

Just a quick rhetorical question: The Big Eight are the megas that were left after the Morning of Reasoning and survived the War as independent corporations*. Are they a corporate state running a military-industrial complex or a military dictatorship organized as corporations?

I heavily favour the interpretation that the Caldari State is a confederation of dictatorships, which just happen to be administrated as corporations and little by little have taken on board more and more corporate traits. It may be something similar to the relatively recent issue between the (ex-)President and Gallente megas - except that the Caldari megacorps didn't just resist government orders, but took advantage of the strong Caldari national spirit to outright secede from the Federation permanently. The long period of war must have molded them significantly. The apologist version of this would indeed suggest that the Caldari are a confederation of independent states run as corporations.

Also, tradition and nationalism. Even if the corporations took lead - probably even stronger after the population was evacuated from Caldari Prime to corporate colonies - I'd argue that someone losing employement with the Big Eight can still remain as a nominal Caldari citizen both culturally (bound by the national spirit) and on paper (via other contracts than "working for life"). Caldari citizens not employed by a mega or direct subsidiaries may include:
- Pensioners (who are still likely associated to a specific ideology, and may even have some kind of an optional contract with their parent corp)
- Unemployed (Disassociated)
- Short-time workers (part time working with a corp, part unemployed)
- Rented workers (people who are not directly employed to their parent mega, but are employed by an at least nominally independent corporation)
- Small business (either disassociated or strongly aligned with a parent corp)
- Freelancers (people who have a skills and resources to whom it is profitable to go independent - while being an anathema to the Caldari, they are a necessary part)

This necessitates that there likely is a citizenship contract. I would assume there to be three types of contracts:

(1) Citizenship of a megacorporation via proxy (i.e. Armor Forge Bar & Grill isn't actually part of Caldari Constructions, but it has no possibility of being anywhere else - so their employees are members of an "independent" corporation with a contract with CC which is a subsidiary of the KK which is, in turn, a full member of the State.
(2) Citizenship of an independent corporation. Employee is a "citizen" of the corporation, which is a silent/non-voting partner in the State.
(3) Independent citizenship. Either their field must be small enough (such as keeping a one-man kiosk), or a niche that is best not organized into a bigger corp ("we need your services - but only one month a year") or then the individual must be so exceptionally talented (and individual-minded) that negotiating contracts is possible. (Part-time workers would, I feel, be more likelyl to be of case (2), employees of an outsourcing corp.) The independent citizenship may be more de facto than de jure, though at least some things would require registration. Such as those exceedingly rare individuals who can afford to travel and require something equivalent to a passport.

*) Can't find the source, but if I remember correctly, Nugoeihuvi is actually a conglomerate of several smaller corporations which banded together to launch a media business after noticing a market opportunity as there was no media-focused corporations amongst the megacorps which left the Federation.

P.S. Also, before being smoked out by the Provists, we have to remember that Quafe used to be the ninth corporation of the Big Eight - a Gallente mega having full membership rights in the State. There are multiple references to independent corporations in the State, but life's pretty difficult for them - they must stay profitable enough not to fall from the society, but if they're too profitable, they'll end up "acquired" by bigger corporations. (Whee, we've got an excuse to slack and take things casually at ASKO. Though we have had our questionably profitable moments.)