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[Casiella]

As noted in the Minmatar party thread, Casiella's snark is entirely IC and I plan on making some RP changes to be able to interact a little more with the community ICly soon.

[Lyn Farel]

Kat, im in a really similar boat. A lot of Amanda bleeds into Ava, and it makes it difficult for me to maintain IC/OOC seperation at times. It dosent help that, like me, Ava isnt particularly bright, and that she cant participate in 75% or so of RP that happens in public channels simply because she (and I) dont understand whats even going on. When I feel myself getting upset, I usually just try to step away for a while. Parts of Ava are very "not" Amanda, so I try to focus on those a bit more, so responses wont seem so personal.

Im drifting into sarcastic bittervet/rage about RP territory too. After the last dogpile on Ava on IGS by my own alliance mates, Im debating just saying fuck RP in general. I RP with Kala and Tabor, and ocassionally Esna, Rin, and Aldrith outside of the Summit. That's it. I have a Minmatar toon that only two minmatar players seem to want to talk to or have anything to do with. It sucks. I'm with you here, and hey, if you wanna RP, im here. Best I Can offer with regards to that I guess.

Short answer? Find  a group of people you like and stick with them. Im about to say the hell with "IC reasons" and just start playing with whoever I want, as maintaining that IC/OOC divide hasnt done any good anyway. Great. Ava sticks to her guns. And Amanda plays a RP character with no one to RP with.

Unless the RP community in EVE gets a little more open and willing to interract with each other (As friends, enemies, whatever) I dont see it lasting long.

Somewhere I find myself guilty of what happened for a good part of it since I, the player, and then, Lyn, the character, intended from A to Z to actually provoke Ava, the character, to see her alliance mates for what they really are, since Lyn knows them quite well dating back to 2007 and occasionally here and there on the timeline coming after. So, yes, it was perfectly calculated and it... seemed somehow to have worked ? But only ICly, since OOCly it did not went well at all it seems. And I do not know what to say other than I probably missed the picture of the OOC human potential drama that could ensue.

It is always the issue with that game when you fight against someone, be it in a conventionnal war or anything else. The best way to win is not through weapons and ingame actions contrary to the common belief that actions speak louder than words. Well, I may be the only one (and Lyn too) to believe in the opposite too ? Not sure, but divide and conquer all the way on the IGS, its what works best here. Not that I deny the first one either, but I think people put too little value on the power of words, relations, manipulation, etc. Play on people's feelings, sometimes it works amazingly well. Lyn used the exact same lever to move things in the way she wanted when she was in kotmc, but with a mitigated success at best. It was not totally calculated and conscious OOCly and ICly, but she really looked for a confrontation with PIE Inc and was ready to answer to Silas' BS duel. Here it is more or less the same idea behind it : her enemies are Minmatar supporting the Elders and Minmatar hardliners, in short, everything that is not midularist more or less. Trying to point out their differences is the best way to weaken an enemy. Why enemies ? Because she is a fervent CONCORD zealous supporter and will do anything to hunt the Elders down for great justice.

I am not really at ease to admit that Lyn is far from being the innocent thing she pretends to be and that her character has to have hidden agendas she has never even spoken about to anyone. She is SoCT and a bit wicked after all. But considering that I hate betraying anyone OOCly (and I think it is the first time it happens like that), well, I really feel sorry. And this may be because of that fact that I tell you that. So I wanted to apologized and also tell you not to give up.

I am drifting into sarcastic bittervet rage about RP territory too, but in a different way, where I see everyone trying to be buddy with everyone else and perfectly knowing it is because we lack of critical mass and at the same time I can't resolve to do the same and that makes me rage inside.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

TBH this is an extremely relevant topic for all of us as players and RP'ers, not just for you specifically, Kat.

I agree with what Lyn just said, especially about us being against each other. We are playing a game, and our characters are pitted against each other. We as PLAYERS are too. We are not pitted against each other as PEOPLE however. We should be a bunch of friends sitting at a table, on opposite sides of the board but all having fun no matter who is losing or winning. Besides, there is no end to this game, so you can never truly win or lose. Make friends, laugh, and poke fun in the OOC channels, but in character and in-game, we are allowed (nay, encouraged) to be as ruthless as we want. Welcome to EVE. Have fun.

[Gottii]

I have a Minmatar toon that only two minmatar players seem to want to talk to or have anything to do with. It sucks. I'm with you here, and hey, if you wanna RP, im here. Best I Can offer with regards to that I guess.

You could stop by the Lutinari public channel. Lots of Minmatar talk there generally. 

[Gottii]

TBH this is an extremely relevant topic for all of us as players and RP'ers, not just for you specifically, Kat.

I agree with what Lyn just said, especially about us being against each other. We are playing a game, and our characters are pitted against each other. We as PLAYERS are too. We are not pitted against each other as PEOPLE however. We should be a bunch of friends sitting at a table, on opposite sides of the board but all having fun no matter who is losing or winning. Besides, there is no end to this game, so you can never truly win or lose. Make friends, laugh, and poke fun in the OOC channels, but in character and in-game, we are allowed (nay, encouraged) to be as ruthless as we want. Welcome to EVE. Have fun.

Nonsense, Im against you Aldy, and your hippie hair.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

@_@ HOW DO YOU KNOW I HAVE HIPPIE HAIR IRL?!

[Syagrius]

This is a very interesting post!  On some level I think it is impossible to play something you are not, however removed or remote from the “real you” that something may be.   Building positive, or at least stable, relationships in Eve can be complicated and frustrating, just like in “reality”.  Occasionally it is difficult to overcome the desire to interact with characters “you” like, but with whom the “other you” would not.  What dealings I have had with you IC'ly and OOC'ly have been appropriate to the storyline and fun as a bonus, so don’t be so hard on yourself.  Oh, and my apologies for all the “”’s.

[Jev North]

I'm going to echo earlier advice and say that some distance between yourself and your character is a good thing. It lets you pause, think and find poise when Kat's getting attacked, too, rather than instinctively going on the defensive. There's an art to this, though, because too much is denying yourself what I feel is one of the main draws of roleplaying - living through your character a little. I think that roleplay should be fun, not just dispassionate performance art.

A similar balancing act comes with characterization. You'd want your character to be self-consistent, and to some degree fitting other people's notions of how a capsuleer of the stripe you've chosen should act; fitting in with others creates instant kinship, and having recognizable hooks and quirks helps streamline all sorts of interactions. On the other side of the coin, these things can become straightjackets that impede your character's development, and your own fun. One of the more toxic ideas I've noticed in the roleplay venues I frequent is the notion that once you've come up with a character concept, or committed to one idea, you're not allowed to deviate from it significantly even if it's obviously become maladaptive. People, real or imagined, can and do change their ideas and approaches to things.

[Bastian Valoron]

The following is what I usually recommend to people when the IC/OOC question comes up and might be relevant to Katrina as well.

-Role-models, research and writing. Take someone you know, or a fictional character, or a celebrity, and try to think through their eyes. Try to choose people who are easy to emulate. How do they speak, walk or meet new people?  What phrases do they use? Long or short sentences? What annoys them and why? What things do they support and why? Build small scenes, just 5-20 lines long, where the role-model explains something to an audience. Can you make every phrase and action support the personality of the character? It helps with IC/OOC divide if your character's personality is based on research, built up methodically and you know what has gone in them.

-Design more characters and play alts. If this is a problem for your main, make them short-lived or unknown to anyone else. Make them all different from each other. Knowing the differences between the characters helps you to create distance between them and you.

-Make a conscious attempt to avoid including anything from your RL personality to the character. Negate your own traits and do research on how to be coherent with these traits. The attempt will inevitably fail, since you made up the whole thing, but it's going to fail ever more otherwise. Trying to choose what to include and what not to include from yourself doesn't seem to work well in my opinion. Your IRL self will win more ground over time and you're likely to drop the role under pressure. Easier to start with coherence and consistency than patchwork.

[Valdezi]

Kat,

First, I love RPing with Kat and think that she comes across very well on the IGS. Bear in mind I have a character in both I-RED and the FCO and I thought you did very well in the IC discussion with Bastian.

Like you, parts of me bleed into all my characters and I think that's inevitable. I think both Mammal and Val represent different sides of my personality, though it's become less fun to RP Mammal of late because most of the flaws and insecurities appear in Val. Mammal is starting to feel like glorious wish fulfillment.

I still however, get invested even in alts when arguing on the IGS.

I remember an occasion when playing one of those alts, delivering a deliberately inflammatory opinion with which I OOCly didn't agree at all, but still becoming annoyed when people disagreed. I had to remind myself that not only was I posting with this character to explore ideas I hated and to try to humanise them, but that I shouldn't become upset when ideas I hate are hated by others.  It just means that my RP experiment is working.

So, that level of investment is normal, I think, even with characters that aren't at all like you.

[Streya]

I think Kyber pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. When making a character, you will in general always throw in some of your own out of character personality traits into the mix. This is not a bad thing out of hand, though. You can make your character unique and entirely different from you by putting spin on these traits and watching where the roleplay leads them. For example, I amplify my real-life tendency to whiteknight when playing Rek to the point that he gets into scenarios that simply would not happen to me in reality, and this leads to events which shape him in a way that makes him entirely different to me after some months. I'm sure you can do the same with Katrina!

As far as wanting happy-story RP, I'm in the same boat as you. EVE is not a game you can "win", and after finally getting around to reading Templar One I've realized CCP pretty much wants the EVE universe to be grimdark-flavored with extra grimdark. As has been said by others though, in smaller more private scenes you can definitely have some heartwarming stuff!

[Rhiannon]

RE: Grimdark with a side of grimdark

Like this? Pretty sure this is a huge influence for EVE's setting.

[Sakaane Eionell]

Wall o' text!

It's been a long time since I was on Backstage. This thread was suggested to me today as something to look at to potentially help me out because I just recently had an IC/OOC issue too. Thank you for starting this thread where others can see, and for everyone else for posting such a variety of feedback. There's a great deal here I will endeavor to keep in mind.

I'd like to offer my thoughts too, because the event I experienced pushed me to where I almost quit EVE entirely, which would have been sad for me. You don't sound like you're at that point, but even so it's not something I'd wish on other people.

• There is too much of OOC me in IC Katrina's personality. When someone attacks her, it bleeds through.

I can appreciate where you're coming from. I just can't fathom not being at least partially close to Sak. If I can't empathize with what she's going through, how will I ever know how she would realistically react? Maybe this also has something to do with the fact I still feel like an RP n00b after a year and a half of RPing, who knows.

But the downside to investing in your character is definitely that things bleed through. If Sakaane is pissed, I'm often pissed too. If she's hurting, I'm hurting. On the other hand, when she's happy, I'm happy too, and generally, she's happy a lot, so maybe I've found some of that escapism you're looking for. But I can (and do) push the envelope with her, where she feels fine but I feel a little guilty about something she did. So, really, ultimately Kat is your character. Play her how it feels natural for you to play her, even if that means adjusting some of her established mannerisms to make it easier or more fun for you going forward. If you can only go so far with her before drawing the line, that's perfectly fine.

Dealing with bleedthrough takes practice, as I've learned. You may not be able to ever get rid of it. Most people want to be liked and accepted by everyone else, perhaps particularly by other players we admire (or whose characters we admire). There was talk about "buddy-buddy RP", and while EVE isn't (or shouldn't be) a popularity contest, it's still a community. A community where people hate each other forever and thrive on conflict is something I feel goes against our basic nature. We wouldn't really form corporations or alliances otherwise, even though sometimes these things do exist solely because it's convenient.

But through conflict we usually want an outcome that is better than before the conflict, so an inherent desire does exist to get along. Yes, it is a game, and 100 years from now it won't matter, so try to have fun with your reaction!

• Katrina is being played as a well educated and composed Caldari, but I am neither formally well educated nor composed. It is difficult for me to pretend to be either.

Even though I've had only very little exposure to Kat I have to agree with everyone else: you do very well at characterizing her. There is a difference between being book-smart and having intelligence. Regardless of how book-smart you think you are, you are obviously an intelligent person, and that comes through to Kat. In my opinion I think this is much better than having her be a talking encyclopedia.

• I keep looking for happy-story escapism RP, where EVE is more about conflict RP.

Lots of people suggested private settings with friends for this. I'd like to add something different: use a different venue like IC blogging or writing an actual story. (Maybe you've done this already, but based on other's comments the impression I have is that you spend most of your time RPing on forums and in chat channels.) Happy-story escapism RP might still need a conflict to start it that Kat can overcome to achieve that happiness, but this can be conflict you create against yourself, so there will be no bleedthrough. Your friends can contribute by guiding you on how their characters would act within the narrative, but ultimately the one in control of the plot is you.

• Katrina both as a character and me as a player may suffer from several of these issues: http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

Flaws are good. Flaws make people real. You don't want to be a cardboard cutout.

When I was feeling my worst about how RP stuff was going, taking a break was the best thing. I only left for a month. I didn't distance myself from my character; I took her with me and distanced myself from the situation. That gave me a chance to think about everything that was going on with a lot less pressure to do anything about it, because IC she was also "away". It let me think more objectively about her, my own behavior through her, and what I could do about it IC and OOC. Coming out of it I probably have a bit more IC/OOC divide than before, but I'll always be invested in her. And I'm okay with that. If you can be okay being as invested in Katrina as you are it might help lighten the burden you feel. You might still fall on your face now and again (I fully expect I will) but like I said: it'll take practice. But hopefully you can still enjoy your character and her story in the meantime.

Hope it helps.

[Bastian Valoron]

In contrast to what many people here seem to be advising, I'd like to state that bleed through is not acceptable. Keeping the IC/OOC division up is not easy, but it does matter. When out of character issues take over, a fun RP discussion turns into a therapy session. It completely spoils the idea. It's not just about your character and your experience, you're affecting the immersion of the people you are playing with. No one is perfect, there is always room for improvement and sometimes bleed through is just too difficult to avoid but heavens forbid it should not be presented as the new standard of role-playing.

Also, taking the setting into account is helpful. It's not just about the costume but how the character is from the inside. New Eden is a dark, harsh universe where nothing comes easily. The unambitious and gullible are exploited and stomped to the ground. Capsuleers are members of its elite, with access to unfathomable resources, capable and guilty of killing thousands without punishment. Can you see them whining about nice tones of voice and friendship, just for the sake of it? All EVE's character types are antagonists, they have attributes which most players would consider repulsive. These attributes help you to keep reality and fiction separated, they give your character depth and realism and it's generally not good for role-playing to leave these aspects out. They are there for a purpose.

Again, what I'm suggesting here is not really directed to Katrina. I'm a big fan of the grey shades she was casting in the latest I-RED thread and I hope we'll see more of that sort in the future.

[Kybernetes Moros]

In contrast to what many people here seem to be advising, I'd like to state that bleed through is not acceptable. Keeping the IC/OOC division up is not easy, but it does matter.

I'd agree that bleed-through can undermine RP; I'd stop short of saying "unacceptable" since in mild instances I've not noticed it, and would add that taking elements of your own personality as a starting point doesn't immediately invite it.