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Author Topic: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)  (Read 24592 times)

Desiderya

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #90 on: 22 Mar 2012, 05:45 »

I feel for you lot. But I wouldn't say Amarrians are the space nazis. This is reserved for the caldari, since it is commonly known that everyone who is slightly patriotic is fascist and it's even more commonly known that said fascists do evil things like deport and detain people at random.
It's a bit tiring, to say the least.

Our most common issue we encounter is the ridiculous comparison to the Borg from Star Trek.
Yeh, the 'Everyone's a brainwashed slave, so what you are saying is worth nothing.' is indeed stupid when refering to you capsuleer lot ( and to some extent, the true citizen thing ).
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #91 on: 22 Mar 2012, 05:48 »

Well, I like to think that Nico has some good arguments for her keeping slaves. All in all, I tried to go a middle way with her between pro-slavery and contra-slavery. Reforms to the system? Yes, most certainly. Abolishing it? What the hell are you thinking?

Still, I left EVE. Which had several reasons:

1. SW:TOR - Quite honestly, I had neither time nor money to keep up the EVE account as well.
2. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Catholics".
3. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Nazis".

Especially the latter two are time and again immersion-breaking for me.
This starts with the "is that what the priest said when they raped you?" Lou mentioned and ends with people citing the Bible as Amarrian Scripture and people simply assuming that the Amarrian concept of God is just the same as catholic doctrine dictates (The three A's). Something experienced coming from both sides of the Amarr/Minmatar divide.

It's roughly the same with the "Space-Nazi" or the "Sansha=Borg" thing, though it's oftentimes more subtle. The fact that there are similarities doesn't mean they are the same or make the comparison any less ridiculous. I imagine Caldari get to hear that too, since Heth.

For me, it's not just a thing of "race to the bottom", dullness nonsense and resulting boredom. The immersion isn't broken because I'm bereft of meaningful replies to "is that what the priest said when they raped you?", but mainly, because I'm immediately pulled out of character and think to myself something like: "If you have quarrels with that, go argue with a catholic priest."

Religion, freedom, slavery, racism, Democracy vs Dictatorship are topics that are hot. All of them touch the Amarr to some degree. That what makes them so interesting. On the other hand, though, it really gets dull when people push those debates pertaining to these topics on you, which they should rather have with the people in RL they aim at.

P.S.: As far as I can tell "all those slavers", that are "gone", are IC'ly either minding their planetside business or went to Angels / turned to Sani Sabik-ism.

First nice summarisation, I for myself on a break of EVE. But I have still a activ account on SWTOR, totally forget that I got a free month, so I have some time left.

About:
"1. SW:TOR - Quite honestly, I had neither time nor money to keep up the EVE account as well."

I understand this point for me was it the time factor, when I have barely the time for one game, why should I play two. But... A huge but... I think most people forget that SWTOR is just a themepark mmo, which gets most likely boring when you hit lvl 50 and it starts to get work and people lost fun if it; because it just becomes to a daily rating-fest. Thats why have already said, that if Im tru the content I leave. So far I can say the game is fun, I love the Imperial Agent, BH, SW... the trooper is more for peolpe which like space mariens etc..... Long story short it isnt a game which can hold me for long, which isnt a problem, so a one-night-stamd from time to time can be fun.

About:
"2. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Catholics". and
3. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Nazis"."

I can feel you. I think, others and I have already mention this problem. And peolpe shouldnt forget Im a outsider on that issue and even I see that clear as a problem. Most likely you will see in months the first Minmatar RPlers, which than start to bitch that their enemys are just to one dimensional.



« Last Edit: 22 Mar 2012, 05:53 by Publius Valerius »
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #92 on: 22 Mar 2012, 10:43 »

The other thing is, in a lot of cases, it seems like the upright and reasonable slavers all face the issue of having morality argued at them endlessly. Eventually something has to give, and generally it gives with the Imperial player leaving the Empire and 'learning the error of his ways' in order to really get past that, they need to either have blinders on, be zealots who can't be reasonably argued with, or assholes who do it partly to be assholes.

I mean, I've found that when an new amarrian RPer comes onto the scene, the first conversation about them in corp chat generally ends up being about whether or not they could be talked down from their slaver ways.

There is a huge difference between reasonable slavers and amarrian anti slavers. The latter may eventually leave the Empire often, but not the former. Examples are legion, like Esna, Nicoletta, etc.
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Gottii

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #93 on: 22 Mar 2012, 11:50 »

Chiming in from the Sansha side :

Our most common issue we encounter is the ridiculous comparison to the Borg from Star Trek. While this doesn't stem from the same moral bucket scraping as 'priest rapists lolo', it can lead to the same levels of frustration and disinclination to be involved with non-Sansha people because they only see the Borg cardboard cut outs.

If it makes you feel better, Ive always thought youre way more Hugh than Locutus.   :D
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Faraelle Brightman

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #94 on: 27 Mar 2012, 13:01 »

My impression of Sansha RPers has always been less Borg, more Andrew Ryan-style transhumanists with an "above good and evil" worldview...and insidious propaganda to conceal the fact that the tech more or less Borgs you (Borg is still a terrible analogy but I can't think of an easy fictional parallel that's accurate.  Manchurian agent?). But my impression is very pre-Incursion and might be outdated. The propaganda worked when Sansha himself was dormant, presumed dead, I dunno how it would fly after he revealed himself and staged mass kidnappings.

(And yes, Faraelle the humanist was in there with the "this is insidious and dangerous propaganda, don't fall for it!" routine, and I may or may not have had some OOC friction with Sansha RPers over the subject of whether there was any PF basis for their playstyle. There's things I'll never know precisely because she's a humanist and would never get near enough to them to find out.)
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Merdaneth

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #95 on: 29 Mar 2012, 12:31 »

My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.

I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.

Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #96 on: 29 Mar 2012, 13:17 »

My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.

I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.

Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.

I wouldn't dream of counting Merdaneth in the 'super best friends' Amarrian category :)
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #97 on: 30 Mar 2012, 17:48 »

My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.

I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.

Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.

I wouldn't dream of counting Merdaneth in the 'super best friends' Amarrian category :)

I don't know. He kited some Imperial Navy slaver escorts for me once. I'd call that friendly.   :lol:

This was inside the Republic I hasten to add. He was there to witness navy involvement with illegal slave taking and didn't fire a shot.
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tarunik

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #98 on: 01 Apr 2012, 20:56 »

1) Tarunik comes from a rather...twisted political background in the first place, which wound up putting him in the "pragmatic Nefantar/very liberal Tash-Murkon" area the best I can tell: he is far more strongly opposed to Holders who abuse Amarrian theology to get a source of cheap menial labor (and with this Vitoc, physical abuse of slaves, ...) than he is to Amarrian theological "yoking" (to distinguish it from economic slavery), and wants the Amarrian governmental apparatus to be less effective with the foot-laser.  On the other hand, he believes that it's possible (and often a better choice) to convert someone religiously without completely overwriting their culture, which puts him at odds with quite a bit of Amarr philosophy regarding religious conversion.

2) He can't really go "RAWR, I hate you and want to make it so you no longer can exist in this cluster" to much of anyone short of Sanshas, EoM, and Blooders, due to the realities of WH life. (The bottom of the Angel Cartel barrel comes close, too.)  On the other hand, he's perfectly happy shooting at most stuff he comes across and thinks he can take, which means he winds up with "frenemies" in most cases.

3) He's relatively open-minded when it comes to hiring crew for his ships; more progressive Sabik, down-on-their-luck Caldari guri, Matari tribal outcasts, and even minor Holders are fair game for him in this regard.
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Makkal

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #99 on: 25 Jun 2012, 04:07 »

*Sung to the tune of Paula Cole's terrible 90's hit "Where have all the Cowboys Gone?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPR108kwNo4

Where have all the slavers gooooone?!

This thing with Cresthill / Manwe today...

I think there's about what, 4 Amarrians now that actually want to carry out the Reclaiming nowadays and not end slavery and hand roses out to their enemies? I really feel for you all.

Amarrians are -soft- these days.
I'd say that in modern, Western media, 'slaver' and 'pedophile' are the go-to ways to show a character is evil. If your character supports slavery, that's going to become the defining characteristic in people's eyes and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.
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Halete

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #100 on: 25 Jun 2012, 08:10 »

More aggressive Slaver Amarrians, please.

Yes, some people want to phase out and do some low-level RP. That isn't me, but I often make-do.

Personally, I'd like more RP between enemies that isn't just shallow mudslinging, tyvm.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #101 on: 25 Jun 2012, 10:03 »

... and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.

Frankly, I think it is this perception more than anything that harms the slaveholding RPers. Aside from the TonyG claptrap - which contradicts most other published PF - I don't think I can think of any "mass rapes", and quite a few instances of educated and relatively off slaves living in conditions that may not be "comfortable", certainly aren't "like animals".

This isn't to say that slaves AREN'T kept like animals or treated horrifically in some parts of the Empire - but the perceptions that there's no such thing as an unabused slave, or that 95% of Amarr are just in it for the kicks and don't really believe in enlightenment, etc, etc... These are, frankly, some of the hardest things for us to RP around. Esna's had to go to really extraordinary lengths in order to disabuse people (pun intended) of that notion.
« Last Edit: 25 Jun 2012, 10:05 by Esna Pitoojee »
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Gottii

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #102 on: 25 Jun 2012, 17:47 »

... and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.

Frankly, I think it is this perception more than anything that harms the slaveholding RPers. Aside from the TonyG claptrap - which contradicts most other published PF - I don't think I can think of any "mass rapes", and quite a few instances of educated and relatively off slaves living in conditions that may not be "comfortable", certainly aren't "like animals".

This isn't to say that slaves AREN'T kept like animals or treated horrifically in some parts of the Empire - but the perceptions that there's no such thing as an unabused slave, or that 95% of Amarr are just in it for the kicks and don't really believe in enlightenment, etc, etc... These are, frankly, some of the hardest things for us to RP around. Esna's had to go to really extraordinary lengths in order to disabuse people (pun intended) of that notion.

Here's my take on abuse and slavery within the Empire.

Gottii's slavery was pretty brutal, mostly because the PF I read about a lot if not most Brutor slaves were kept specifically for hard manual labor.  ( also pushing a mill in a circle makes for an easy time lapse transition)

Gottii's slaves died quite often.  High-gravity mining is hard and dangerous.  Slaves had a hideously high mortality rate.  From real life, I took inspiration from real life mining slavery in the Roman Empire and European sugar cane plantations in the Caribbean, which had life expectancies of months if not weeks.

The slaves were caught between their Holder (who wanted greater profit) and the priests watching over the flock so to speak (who were the True Believers for the most part, and actually bought into the belief they were trying to better the lives of the Matari).  This served (or will serve) as a central theme in a lot of the fiction I wrote.  Again, I tried to take inspiration from historical sources, in this case the Spanish New World colonies with the tension between the Crown and the Church in running say the Peruvian silver mines.

That said, I would imagine Gottii's slavery example to be pretty extreme.  Most slaves wouldnt have such conditions, indeed, the Matari race wouldnt be to numerous if they were.   I figured that rape of slaves is highly discouraged, both for religious reasons and for the more cynical and practical sense that it gets in the way of carefully constructed DNA-modifications wrought by the HEP.  (for example, Gottii's high gravity modifications required constant genetic tinkering to keep those traits "breeding true", overseers raping their charges would dilute those modifications, and cost their Holders money, so the Holders have a practical reason to keep it from happening, and punish it severely)

That said, of course there is sexual exploitation of slaves.  The Holder in the St. Arzad story is quoted as having a Matari "lover".  (which, as any sexual harassment seminar will tell you, its impossible to have a healthy and balanced relationship between two people of such disparate positions in their respective organization).  Sexual exploitation of slaves has always happened in the course of human history.  Its part and parcel of what slavery is. 

Is rape of slaves probably outlawed in the Empire?  Of course, for a variety of reasons, and not all of them cynical.  But rape is outlawed now, and it still certainly happens.  The problem is having such a defenseless underclass greatly enhances the opportunities for sexual predation, and a slave by definition almost always has little to no legal or social recourse.  So its certainly part of the Empire, but its likely not openly accepted or acknowledged.  Though behind closed doors or in an isolated slave camp is another matter.

But slaves are always abused, at least in this regard.  Its mentioned in the slavery PF that slaves within the Empire are kept in line with either drugs or the threat of violence.  Using violence, or the threat of violence, is always abusive.  Theres no way to threaten someone with physical harm in a non-abusive way.  Theres no such thing as "good slavery", just "subtly threatening slavery".  Slaves live in a constant state of fear of punishment, no matter how well treated.  They live in fear.  And that in itself is abuse.

So its about various degrees of control, of how overt the threat of physical harm is.  Not everyone is likely whipped, in fact I would imagine many slaves, particularly highly trained, assimilated and educated ones might go their whole lives without being physically punished.  Buts the threat is always there, even if its remote.   
« Last Edit: 25 Jun 2012, 17:57 by Gottii »
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #103 on: 25 Jun 2012, 20:31 »

Some questions:

Do we have any evidence that sexual contact with slaves requires consent? If we do, whose consent: the slave's or the slaveowner's? If a slave can give legal consent to sexual contact, how is that ascertained? Are there other things a slave can consent to? Are there other things a slave is required to consent to? ("Just take these healthy medicines.") 

I'd expect it to be more a property crime than a personal crime. I don't think slaves can give consent, pretty much by definition[1], which means that within the legal framework surrounding slavery I don't think "rape" has meaning.

Not all slaves were part of the HEP or other dedicated breeding programmes, although some were. Outside of those programmes (presumably) there seems to have been willingness to mix slave bloodlines:
For the next several centuries, the Amarr were left without a fresh source of slaves. During this time, the slave stock subsisted mainly on breeding programs, though the Empire also began to use slavery as punishment for criminal acts. In this way, even those of Amarr ancestry began to be enslaved and had their blood mixed with the Udorians, Khanid, and other minor races that made up the slave population.

I also don't think Amarrians are necessarily required to tie sex and fertility together, although so far I think the only evidence we have is that they do. We know from item write-ups that they do breed slaves the old way. I haven't heard about them using artificial insemination: we've assumed that it makes sense, but I don't know how it fits the culture. We also don't know the Amarrian take on non-reproductive sexual activities, contraception and abortion (which is pretty significant for the position of women in Amarrian society, among other things). I've assumed that they're capable enough at animal husbandry to be able to ensure that they don't waste valuable resources gestating the "wrong" offspring, but if they're feeding their slaves the future equivalent of RU486 once a month to take care of any unscheduled pregnancies I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that sex is an accepted overseer perquisite, and forced sex a means of discipline.

I also expect that there's the Amarrian equivalent of the SPCA, advocating for the humane treatment of slaves. And Holders who value discipline and proper focus.

... and that this all seems very normal, if that's the society you expect. And that one of the things some Amarrian roleplayers lament is that there aren't more people taking the view that that's no big deal and it's really rather gauche for these irritating outsiders to make such a fuss about it.

______
[1] There's scope for huge debate here about consenting to be freed, deciding rationally to trade sex for things you want, etc. In this instance I'm talking about legal consent, which strikes me as being one of the things that you don't get as a slave. Do educate me if I'm wrong.
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Casiella

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #104 on: 25 Jun 2012, 20:46 »

I don't know that the common law framework surrounding rape / consent issues translates directly to the fictional Amarrian culture. I get what you're saying and, if "rape" means the same thing there as it does here, then you're spot on.

But I could also envision a world in which the Amarrian ideal is that slaves are to be treated as humans needing to purge their sins through work and receive enlightenment, and that they can't do that if Holders et al. abuse them in ways that would incur God's disapproval.

In fact, we might be better off discarding the entire notion of rape as applied under legal frameworks with which we're familiar, and instead assuming that it means something that we would possibly recognize as "rape". Think, for example, of the ancient Hebrew laws about slavery and such, where slaves were more than simple property but certainly not equal subjects (the concept of "citizenry" didn't apply).
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