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Author Topic: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)  (Read 23147 times)

Silas Vitalia

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Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« on: 14 Mar 2012, 13:30 »

*Sung to the tune of Paula Cole's terrible 90's hit "Where have all the Cowboys Gone?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPR108kwNo4

Where have all the slavers gooooone?!

This thing with Cresthill / Manwe today...

I think there's about what, 4 Amarrians now that actually want to carry out the Reclaiming nowadays and not end slavery and hand roses out to their enemies? I really feel for you all.

Amarrians are -soft- these days.
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Rin Kaelestria

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #1 on: 14 Mar 2012, 13:55 »

*hands over a bunch of screws*  Here, I think these belong to you. <.<  *j/k*

The two you mentioned, I think are the same guy behind the screen. Either way I dunno where they all went. Maybe bored of the game and on break, or they don't like what Tony G. did to PF. Can't really say. Just know that RP in general has been quiet as of late.
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BloodBird

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #2 on: 14 Mar 2012, 15:53 »

Welcome to RL morality inspired IC decisions and actions.

The only thing that bothers me more about this than all the face-heel-turn Amarr are all their enemies either being huggy-kissy all of a sudden if any Amarr decide to drop slavery (not just the opponents of Amarrians towards them, but it's a great example) or raging mad at them at all times if not. Everyone constantly project their toon's morality (and it often feels like that morality is RL-morality based) at their opponents and judge them based on their ideas and morals, ignoring the fact they speak to someone who might as well have been an alien, because they live in a society alien to their own.

Where did the "respect for my worthy enemy" go? It's getting tiresome to read about toon X bitching at Y for standing up for their way of life and keeping in line for their nation defense then in the next post/paragraph/breath defending their right to do the same. Arrrrg.

Late, I'm off. More detail and clarity on this another day.

And yeah, that guy smells of sacrificial alt. No offense intended, but he does.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #3 on: 14 Mar 2012, 16:04 »

It's the disciples of Ston guy's alt, but that's a whole other topic of "RP alts" that I'm sure we can dump on in another thread :)

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Jakiin

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #4 on: 14 Mar 2012, 17:06 »

Speaking as someone whose char is pretty tame, it's mostly because the reclaiming tactics of old are no longer possible. If all of the Amarr in the cluster had enough military might to hold off both the Federation and the Republic without State aid, then you might get a few more people willing to play Reclaimers (Not that the state would stand by, mind you, but it's a relatively small delusion to have). As it is, anyone who wants to play something resembling a sane character has to admit that diplomacy is right now the only possible way of getting things done.

Besides which, Reclaimers are more boring to RP with non-Amarrians. Then both sides are just saying "I'm right and you're wrong" over and over again.*

*:P
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #5 on: 14 Mar 2012, 17:17 »

The players willing to play slavers have always been a minority among the Amarrians.

It would not be a problem to be a religious Reclaimer and just have verbal jousting with the filthy heathens, try to convert them or just have a jolly good fun watching the monkeys dance.
It turns into a problem when pretty much all the RP interaction that you get is from other players that cannot handle the fact that Amarrians are what they are, so they corrupt the whole culture into something... bland.

This is pretty much going into the urdoingitwrong category, but after you have seen the umpteenth time that an Amarrian has played out an arc with some heathen that performs some minor lip service to the Amarrian culture and religion and treats them as equal after that... you kind of lose the will to even try to portray the mainstream of the culture.

The Amarrian culture/religion was so watered down by OOC stuff when I walked away from EVE, that I abhor to think what it is now.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #6 on: 14 Mar 2012, 17:31 »

First off - confirming that to my knowledge, Manwe/Ston/Theobar are all the same person.

I think it's a combination of things, unfortunately none of which are really condusive:
A: Templar One most recently, but a lot of other things in the past as well derping up our faction's PF.

B: Shrinking community size; it's hard to take an unpopular position if all it gets you is grief and no other people taking the position willing to RP with you.

C: Some of the few remaining slavers who are about are either criminals/hostiles in PF or the "slaves aren't people, they're just property" archetype. Again, it's hard to rationalize support for a religious reclaiming to "save" or "uplift" people when you're lumped in with either someone who is talking in terms of human cattle or people your character has to codemn IC because under canon, they are the enemy. Don't want to be included with them? Fine, but then you run smack into point B again.

D, sweet lord the rape trope. Working from the idea that "rape is a special kind of evil", it seems to be a common thing now for slaves to be raped everywhere. Again, it seems really, really hard to me to rationalize support of a system when it seems like every days someone is subjected to crime that, in PF, the first Emperor himself explicitely prohibited. "That's against the law" or "That's not supposed to happen" kind of falls on deaf ears when in both PF and player-created stuff, slaves are being raped everywhere.

E, as Bloodbird said, RL morality. Welp. That's a thread in and of itself.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #7 on: 14 Mar 2012, 18:22 »

I think my issue is just one more of representation.  When 90% of the Amarrian RPers are reformers/liberals, something doesn't add up.

This isn't to say I don't want variety and diversity of characters. I happen to quite like the idea of liberal Amarrians trying to change the system and bring it into the modern age... but that sort of thing would be a rarity, or at -least- not a majority opinion.

There's no real way around this as we are all RL people and not many are that interested in investing RP time being the 'bad guy.'

It's just.... how would the Matari RPers feel if 90% of the Minmatar RPers were super friendly with Amarrians and had no issues with slavery? It's immersion-breaking for me sometimes.



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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #8 on: 14 Mar 2012, 18:25 »

Jak I'm not so sure, there's plenty of room for -interesting- interaction between conservatives and others, it just has to be thought-out and well done, or heaven forbid, actually limit the amount of interaction between certain RPers. 

You don't see Blake, etc showing up to Matari bars or events. EVER. They hold the line and I absolutely salute them for it.

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Ulphus

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #9 on: 14 Mar 2012, 18:43 »

how would the Matari RPers feel if 90% of the Minmatar RPers were super friendly with Amarrians ...

Been there, done that. Get grief occasionally for things like walking out of a RP party because Esna showed up, or not being interested in social events with KotMC peeps at, being accused of intolerance and all that.

You might not see it from your angle, but some of the complaints by various Amarrian RPers recently seem very familiar to me from about a year or two back. It just feels like Minnie RP is now flavour of the month.
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Adult to 4y.o "Your shoes are on the wrong feet"
Long pause
4y.o to adult, in plaintive voice "I don't have any other feet!"

Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #10 on: 14 Mar 2012, 18:48 »

Silas did her best to give KOTMC grief as best she could for those same reasons :P

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Ulphus

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #11 on: 14 Mar 2012, 18:57 »

Silas did her best to give KOTMC grief as best she could for those same reasons :P

Good for you! I approve... wait, I mean, Boo, you ebil slaver...

:p
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Adult to 4y.o "Your shoes are on the wrong feet"
Long pause
4y.o to adult, in plaintive voice "I don't have any other feet!"

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #12 on: 14 Mar 2012, 19:22 »

Hehe, and we thoroughly enjoyed it, coming from you. Or I did, at least. :P

But no, seriously - I think it's all the things I layed out earlier, brewed together to form a toxic brew where those who want to be aggressive slaveholding reclaimers find themselves defending a system which in both PF and common interaction is full of violations literal and metaphorical, while taking grief from virtually every other faction out there and not able to find someone who they can really agree and cooperate with...

Well, that's an aweful lonely place to RP from, and while conflict is all good and fun, constant unending conflict just becomes painful.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #13 on: 14 Mar 2012, 20:51 »

I'm sure being a staunch slaver works if there are plenty of other characters that won't ostracize you for taking that position. I imagine this was the case in ye olde days when the Amarrian RP player base was larger and more unified. By the time I got to the game, a week before Empyrian Age, that was apparently dwindling though. Originally I wanted to play a liberal because I thought it would be a nice contrast to the majority of Amarrian characters since the PF was so extreme, but it turned out that by the time I had quit most Amarrians were as you say. And I thought only Aldy would be like that!

However, I've thought about this phenomenon before, and I think it could be reasonably explained as a realistic outcome of how capsuleering and the Empire work. First off, consider how Imperial society would view capsuleering and cloning. Holders have to give up their titles due to Sacred Flesh, immortality and eternal youth seems to go against nature and God, then couple that with the inherent lack of morality the vast majority capsuleers exhibit and you can assume that Imperial society would not look well upon the position. One would likely have to be more open-minded (or ruthlessly pragmatic) enough to even consider becoming one. Then consider that only rich and well-educated individuals are likely to become capsuleers in the first place. Both education and affluence afford people a wider array of choices when considering world-views, making the pool of capsuleer candidates also be more likely to be liberal than the Empire at large. Then, once an individual becomes a capsuleer, consider the sudden and absolute freedom they then have, both in social interaction and lifestyle choices. They are no longer constrained by Imperial laws about blasphemy and loyalty, and can interact with whomever they wish, wherever they wish. That in itself would be a draw for liberal-minded Imperial citizens looking for an out and would also end up opening the minds of more conservative Amarrians who ended up signing on to a capsuleer program.

These factors, to me at least, make is seem like it would actually be perfectly normal so many Amarrian capsuleers would be so liberal. Also, consider that being a capsuleer is a lot like being in high-school. Popularity for a capsuleer is arguably equivalent to power, as many things are dictated on how many other capsuleers you can sway to do things as you see it. Sucking up to a foreigner or two is not just a pleasant way to pass the time, it is a powerful tool used to gain real influence. A diplomatic and charismatic liberal Amarrian will thrive where a stodgy old battle-axe of a slaver will find himself alone and scorned, except by other stodgy old battle-axes. This is a problem when you want to take down a POS somewhere.

That said, I do find it unfortunate that there are less conservative Amarrians as my time trying to be a liberal lark in PIE was some of the most fun I've ever had in RP, especially when the battle-axe Mitara fell in love with it! The conflict caused truly is fun to play out, and I've also had a desire to play the other side as well. They also technically have it right as the Evelopedia article on slavery states: "Rare is the individual Amarr who desires the end of slavery in the Empire and these are typically ostracized at best, declared heretics as the norm." However, it seems to be the natural progression of things at the moment.
« Last Edit: 16 Mar 2012, 12:05 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Where have all the Slavers gone? (Woe is Me)
« Reply #14 on: 14 Mar 2012, 21:37 »

I think I'd take the opposite point in that it would actually be -less- likely for a liberal / reformist to become a capsuleer. With Imperial institutions being as -highly- controlled by the autocracy as they are, (The military, the top universities) I find it hard to believe that anyone but the most ardent supporters of the system would be allowed to progress through capsuleer training.

I think some eccentric liberal/wealthy holders could maneuver their supporters into those roles, but the rank-and-file capsuleers are all going to be supporters of the system at its basic levels at least. 

My 2 isk.



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