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[Svetlana Scarlet]

I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Silphy_en_Diabel

Single-handedly took over the Syndicate, if that impresses anyone.

You realize you're picking nits, right? Especially since she's been in maybe one or two chrons at most. And wasn't there some titillating lesbianism thrown in there for good measure too?

[BloodBird]

The origin story for Karin Midular was impressive too, and look what happened to her.

The only reason Silphy has not been whored out yet is the fact there are only about 2 stories that are about her; her origin story and Ante, IIRC. She shared that one with another toon people hardly hear about either; The only member of the Sarpathi family of any value. (Can't recall exact name atm, you all know who it is.)

Frankly the misogyny is another one of those factors that makes one wonder if CCP has any fucking idea what they are doing with their own story or if anyone in that company cares anymore. There are a few examples of the opposite, luckily, but it still makes one wonder...

[lallara zhuul]

The misogynistic aspects of EVE are quite odd, because as far as I can tell CCP folks are scandinavians and the culture itself is pretty gender equal (in the harsh conditions of the north, you need both sexes to work hard so that you can prosper.)

Unless they are part of some internet hate cult that thinks its a great big eL-Oh-eL to disrespect 'bitches'.

Well, when you actually think of it... the HTFU video and all that...

[Gottii]

Templar One bothers me because it tries hard to tell the story of Eve, rather than a story in EVE. 

An MMO, and certainly a sandbox one, is at its best when there are innumerable various storylines and narratives working together, creating a living universe.  Templar One reduces all those stories to rather meaningless background noise.

[Seriphyn]

Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.

For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.

[Gottii]

Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.

For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.

Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too.  Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Templar One bothers me because it tries hard to tell the story of Eve, rather than a story in EVE. 

An MMO, and certainly a sandbox one, is at its best when there are innumerable various storylines and narratives working together, creating a living universe.  Templar One reduces all those stories to rather meaningless background noise.

Yeah, I tend to agree with this too. I think I made that point about TEA and then I wrote a blog post about the difference between narrative, background, and metaplot -- I think CCP, or at least Tony, has confused metaplot with narrative. Not to go back to an oft-plumbed well, but I think Shadowrun's Burning Bright shows how you can write a personal narrative that shows off your metaplot, without making the metaplot the actual story. Players want to see how they can fit into the bigger events happening around them, they don't want to hear about your GM PCs being super awesome and ultrapowerful and showing how they are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The main characters in Burning Bright are a private detective, his ally spirit, a corporate secretary, and an Ares special forces soldier, not the CEO of Ares, the President of the UCAS, and Lofwyr the Great Dragon.

[Matariki Rain]

Svetlana, yeah....

Is there anything I could do to help you find/make/visit a corner of the EVEworld that was engaging for you? Throw a young and questioning Caldari at your feet, wanting to know how it should all fit together?

Also noting that I've found myself making guesses about the backgrounds of the writers of various parts of the fiction wiki. Now if only I had a way to find out if my guesses are correct.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

Svetlana, yeah....

Is there anything I could do to help you find/make/visit a corner of the EVEworld that was engaging for you? Throw a young and questioning Caldari at your feet, wanting to know how it should all fit together?

At this point, I don't think so. I love Eve as a game -- especially what I've seen these days, I think it still about the only MMO that really embraces the potential of the medium. But I've been so wrapped up in the story for so long that it's hard for me to separate the two now, and story and setting are a big part of what draw me to games. The fact that what I've written about the Caldari appears to be quite different from what CCP wants to portray these days doesn't help my excitement over the game either, considering it basically means I wasted a lot of time on what comes down to mental masturbation. I love the stuff in the fiction portal, but it feels like there was way more effort put into making that really good only to have the metaplot (well, in this case Templar One, which I admit I only have people's posts here to go on about) written with far less effort put into making the world consistent and interesting. The fiction portal is only useful if the people actually doing the writing use it (and, preferably, have someone editing their work whose job is to make sure it is consistent with that information).

I really don't want to bag on the CCP folks too much -- I don't think any of them are bad people, and I actually think Abraxas, Gnauton, and Dropbear are good writers, if not always to my taste -- but the universe they are writing about one is not one that I am interested in much at all anymore. Certainly not one that I feel passionate enough about to want to devote a good chunk of time playing in and writing about.

[GoGo Yubari]

Wow, just read the OP and parts of the thread.

Way to go to completely get me disassociated with a setting that I used to love. I just can't recognize what I initially got hooked on from what we're seeing here. I mean, I've been feeling more and more like that as time went on and the setting was getting fleshed out by new folks, but seems like the latest Eve novel just utterly describes something I'm not at all interested in.

Oh well, too bad. Good job recapping all that to everyone here, though!

[Myyona]

If any of that stuff ever came up in the game, I'd probably be more excited. Instead it's either Abraxas' torture porn or Tony's...whatever. The game has come down to capsuleers being the TEH AWESOEM except not really because they don't affect anything and the rest of the universe being filled with characters I hate (and not in the good way). So...yeah. From the sound of Templar One, the casual misogyny I gritted my teeth through in TEA appears to be alive and well too, which makes me think I'm just not part of the intended audience for this game anymore either.

You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.

[Senn Typhos]

I can't think of one female character in the entire Eve pantheon I have even the least bit of respect for at this point, frankly.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Silphy_en_Diabel

Single-handedly took over the Syndicate, if that impresses anyone.

You realize you're picking nits, right? Especially since she's been in maybe one or two chrons at most. And wasn't there some titillating lesbianism thrown in there for good measure too?

I was picking no nits, I was offering hope. D:

Maybe the next writer CCP finds will be less of a tragedy? vOv

[Svetlana Scarlet]

You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.

I do not think there are any women in TEA who are not portrayed as either pathetic victims or sex objects at some point during the book (and both isn't out of the question either). There's no woman who is portrayed as competent and as a person throughout the whole thing. The CEO of a megacorporation is so incompetent as to lose her giant company to a forklift operator for no apparent reason, the Prime Minister of the Republic has members of her own security staff who try to rape her and throws tantrums when dealing with her political opponents, and the future Empress is a barely-legal sexpot that's a crying little girl being possessed by some Jovian that does all the important stuff. A Gallente officer sleeps with her subordinates because, hey, whatever, and the woman on the stupid frigate stays on board with a drunken, abusive whoremonger as captain because...I have no idea why.

Midular's one moment of defiance was refreshing because it the one time a woman actually made a choice for herself that didn't seem to be just going along with the plot of the book. So much so that I almost wondered if someone else had stuck it in there as metacommentary.

[Gottii]

You know, I could not put my finger on it, but I always felt there was something I strongly disliked in the way women were portrayed in TEA. In fact to such a degree that if I ever get the possibility I am going to utterly destroy the Minmatar Elders no matter how much "forced-down-the-throat" heroes they are supposed to be.

I do not think there are any women in TEA who are not portrayed as either pathetic victims or sex objects at some point during the book (and both isn't out of the question either). There's no woman who is portrayed as competent and as a person throughout the whole thing. The CEO of a megacorporation is so incompetent as to lose her giant company to a forklift operator for no apparent reason, the Prime Minister of the Republic has members of her own security staff who try to rape her and throws tantrums when dealing with her political opponents, and the future Empress is a barely-legal sexpot that's a crying little girl being possessed by some Jovian that does all the important stuff. A Gallente officer sleeps with her subordinates because, hey, whatever, and the woman on the stupid frigate stays on board with a drunken, abusive whoremonger as captain because...I have no idea why.

Midular's one moment of defiance was refreshing because it the one time a woman actually made a choice for herself that didn't seem to be just going along with the plot of the book. So much so that I almost wondered if someone else had stuck it in there as metacommentary.

I agree that TonyG has problems writing for female characters.  They're more plot objects than human beings.

That said, its not like he's particularly good at writing decent or well rounded male characters either.

Edit:  Thats unfortunately a trend in a lot of sci-fi, even nominally good sci fi (Heinlein for instance was flat out terrible at writing female characters).  Actual human characters and development take a backseat to the setting

[Seriphyn]

Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.

For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.

Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too.  Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.

So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)

Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.

It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.