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Author Topic: Templar One [[Spoilers]]  (Read 40288 times)

Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #120 on: 08 Feb 2012, 11:15 »

I don't think his cultural bias has anything to do with the problems in that book really.
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Jekaterine

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #121 on: 08 Feb 2012, 11:49 »

I'd like to thank all those spoilering here in this thread.
I wasn't going to buy the book and haven't. it just so happens though that a friend had gotten a review copy that he passed to me.
Some thirty pages in and I'm already finding outright faults as to how the ingame reality works vis a vi the book.
« Last Edit: 08 Feb 2012, 12:56 by Jekaterine »
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Gottii

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #122 on: 08 Feb 2012, 12:48 »

Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.

For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.

Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too.  Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.

So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)

Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.

It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.

Thats not the point.  Its your fundamental points I find wrong.  As someone who has traveled in Europe, studied European history, has friends who live in Europe, has European clients, studied law in Europe for a time, and works for a European company, I can argue quite solidly that Europe has all kinds of issues on interacting with and integrating various cultures, easy as challenging as the US, if not more so.  (US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures, its why i can buy godawful mcdonalds and KFC in the US, Europe and China, if convincing other cultures to buy terrible terrible food isnt an example of skillful cultural interactions, I dont know what is)  To say that TonyGs terrible writing stems from a particular aspect of a particular culture is, in my eyes, quite ignorant.

Again, for you to say that Hollywood serves as the main thrust of American literature, as opposed to say Faulker, Hemmingway, Steinbeck, etc, is again, a very very ignorant position that most Literature scholars would likely snort at.  Its an influence, sure, no doubt, but if youre going to talk literature, talk literature.  If all you know of American literature is Hollywood ans fluff/pop sci-fi literature, then I would suggest you should broaden your world and read better books.

Keep in mind Hollywood makes 70% of their money overseas, for every one american who pays money to see an American film, two and a half non-Americans do as well (likely a lot more, given price differences and currency rates), they just dont make movies for US audiences.  Its not just Americans who pay for explosions and big breasts   Im not saying its not an influence, but its hardly the only one, or a uniquely American one. 

I mean, hell, youve said yourself Seri is influenced by Shepard from Mass Effect.  It used to be your profile pic  Youre telling me Mass Effect isnt basically a video game version of a blockbuster Hollywood sci-fi movie trilogy, and Shepard isnt your arch-typical Hollywood hero/anti-hero?  It literally plays to a vast number of Hollywood movie cliches, almost scene for scene and trope for trope.  Its not just TonyG whos been influenced by Hollywood when interpreting EVE (hint, you are too, lots and lots)

Its not that I think the point that authors write from a particular culture is wrong.  Its that I think youre biased and ignorant when it comes to cultural comparisons and literature, or even your own biases and influences.

That said, I dont really have any interest in arguing cultural problems and issues.  I have my own opinions and views, which no doubt upset some people on the forum.  We all do.  This isnt the place for them.  This is about EVE RP.  Im here to talk about TonyGs shitty writing.  So I keep such views to myself, for the good of the forum and the community.  I do so because (shockingly) I understand Im an American, and spouting off my views as truth to other people from other cultures is in fact a very poor way to interact with differing cultures.  To avoid being hypocritical. you should as well. 
« Last Edit: 08 Feb 2012, 13:55 by Gottii »
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #123 on: 09 Feb 2012, 07:53 »

Worth mentioning TonyG is from New Jersey. His upbringing/background may influence the way he approaches his writing, and the way he worldbuilds.

For example, the whole characterization and dialogue within Templar One is very American and Hollywood. Little considerations to the fact that different cultures talk and interact in different ways.

Yeah, Ive read a lot of really bad authors from England too.  Please take ridiculous cultural bias somewhere else.

So, all authors are completely immune to writing from their unique cultural perspectives? You'll notice the one thing I inferred regarding his origins from New Jersey is not his portrayal of woman, but a very Hollywood-esque style of exposition. It can be as mundane as using capital letters for military rank abbreviations (SSG for Staff Sergeant...that's US Army...other armies may use SSgt, S/Sgt, so forth)

Three of the four EVE factions arguably are not primarily influenced by the modern Western world, yet it's all written from a Western perspective.

It's not "ridiculous cultural bias"; you can't possibly think there's this imaginary Standard that all authors write from as a platform.

Thats not the point.  Its your fundamental points I find wrong.  As someone who has traveled in Europe, studied European history, has friends who live in Europe, has European clients, studied law in Europe for a time, and works for a European company, I can argue quite solidly that Europe has all kinds of issues on interacting with and integrating various cultures, easy as challenging as the US, if not more so.  (US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures, its why i can buy godawful mcdonalds and KFC in the US, Europe and China, if convincing other cultures to buy terrible terrible food isnt an example of skillful cultural interactions, I dont know what is)  To say that TonyGs terrible writing stems from a particular aspect of a particular culture is, in my eyes, quite ignorant.


First of all. I´m not in general on the opposite-side. But here have I to intervene. It is actually just the small point about companies as representation of the culture. I think, the doku "Amerika made in Hollywood" has made a good point about this... In short-form is, that a product alone can´t even define just elments of the culture like freedom or egalitarianism. Doesnt mean that companies sell it as a point to there products, see for example the World of Coca-Cola exhibition (sadly I cannt find a free link:(, but wasnt really funny, I would say just average  :lol:).

My point about the whole book was: See here. After re-read some parts, I even think it is better than TEA, less fantasy creatures, like elders etc... not that I have a general proplem with this theme, I like sci fi fantasy, it just that I saw EVE more in the cyperpunk corner. In the beginning, I was even close to make even a gallente char, because of the old race pic. So for me I was actually ready for everything when I start Templar One, thats why my fall was less hard  :P. Just joking, but for a game-book is it, between okay and meh...

About: "US companies are actually very very good at navigating and interacting with other cultures" I would say it has more to do with resources they spent. But most likely it is just me... because Im a little  homo economicus and not a homo sociologicus. I would say a company X is good in navigating and interacting with other cultures, because this company put resources in it (Labour, Capital). So the culturelle background of this black box doesnt really count for me (but Im a VWLer/Economics not a BWLer/Business economics). I think you both start more from the homo sociologicus, which I as a german can say...Is so german  :P .... (just joking) I try just to show, culture can have even a inpact in our little world, and it always started whan we go away form a positivistic/scientific view. So before we start with X or Y, we should define this points... for example I think Seriphyn had something like "´Jersey Shore" in mind, scripted reality TV with easy accessible characters and with a easy story-plot. I think Gottii had something, to have a modern example, something like "Beloved" in mind or ehm.... - to have a bestseller comparison to the jersey shore - "Game of Thrones". And I have to say you both are wrong. Sorry.... because both are elments of the same culture, its like colin quinn in long story short describe "American culture isnt just the enlightenment and wisdom of the founding fathers, it is also snooki on her phone (somewhere here).[...] And I hate to bring the news to you not everybody likes to have girls gone wild in their culture."  :P I know... I know he is just comedian etc...

The larger point is.... If some likes to say X or Y and/or just Y or X is american or german etc... I will come and hunt you people with popper and f**k your hippi-asses with your own homo sociologicus :P

P.S. Today is bullshit bingo... and I have already "hippi-asses"... I think today, I have a run.



« Last Edit: 09 Feb 2012, 08:31 by Publius Valerius »
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Yoshito Sanders

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #124 on: 11 Feb 2012, 12:45 »

So I finished Templar One last night. My overall impressions? It was better than Empyrean Age, but that's not saying much for the quality of Templar One. Templar One was, generally, a bit of a mess of a book and had numerous weaknesses from a pure writing standpoint. I'm not going to even delve into any continuity problems (I only noticed a few and at least one of them [the oft-denigrated Terran station from 14000 years before the EVE Gate collapsed] I can fairly confidently claim was a result of poor editing rather than Tony just not knowing better) or conflicts with EVE's style and tone (of which there were many, but others have covered in greater detail). Rather, I'm looking at it simply from the writing perspective.

The biggest issue was that there were no protagonists or antagonists and it had no real conflict. The novel was about a bunch of characters all working toward the same general goals. Mordu's Legion, the Federation, and Ishukone all had identical goals (getting Templar tech) and never worked against each other in any way; in the end, they all end up working together. About 2/3rds of the way through, the Amarr essentially had the same goals as well. The presence of other factions was minimal to the point of irrelevance. Heth and the State were background players who essentially only tacked on extra (unneeded) motivation for Mens, while the Republic was so absent from the narrative as to have been rendered irrelevant. The only group that may have been working slightly against the characters was CONCORD, but they also had virtually no effect on any of the plot. They were there, but ultimately nothing they did had the slightest impact.

A small case could be made that the Other was the antagonist, but it did nothing in the book aside from make Jamyl fall from the podium. Its actions, too, were ultimately irrelevant in the narrative. It set the plot in motion and has vaguely defined sinister motives (at least according to Grious), but it did little to actually advance those motives. It certainly did not actively work against any of the characters in the novel or attempt to prevent them from succeeding. It was just there. A bit of information that had no real relevance to the plot of the novel.

Finally, the pacing and plotting of the novel was jumbled and there was far too much unnecessary parts. For example, the background of Jacus Roden was entirely pointless. It added nothing to the story. Nothing presented impacted the plot in the slightest and it only presented a small expansion of Roden's personality, one that was utterly detached from Roden's portrayal in other parts of the novel (which does make sense, as 70 years had passed, so he should not be the same personality wise). There were other, similar sections that really had no point being in the novel and only served to make it longer. For the most part, these were sections that were prefaced by "XXX years ago", though some of them (such as the scene where Gable is captured by the Valklears) at least serve to set up other parts of the action. The novel could have been 100 pages shorter and been much tighter if such sections had been excised.

Now a novel without a central conflict or defined protagonists or antagonists can work, but it requires exceptional writing and characters to pull off. Templar One has neither of those things.

The characters themselves were all basically flat. No one had much beneath their surface, with a few small exceptions, and even those were not really explored much. Characters were all driven by one basic thought pattern and that was it. The actions of any individual were mostly predictable given the circumstances they were in. No one did anything surprising or unexpected or human. They were all clearly there to push forward a plot and little else.

The writing wasn't actually too bad. But there were numerous problems. One of the biggest ones was the frequent misuse of common sentence constructions. There were a lot of them, but there were two that particularly stuck out to me.

The first came early in the novel. The line goes something like "That was the honest truth, if not a pathetic one." This is not how the "It was XXX, if not XXX" works. That phrasing is supposed to be used to imply that the second clause is of greater magnitude, but may not be reached, than the first, which is definitely reached. Examples of proper usage are "It was a snow storm, if not a blizzard" or "He was the richest man in the world, if not the entire universe." The way it is written in the book makes no sense. What was intended (I believe) is the "The truth may or may not be pathetic, but it was at least honest." Instead, it comes across as "The truth is honest, but it probably hasn't reached pathetic yet."

The second came later in the novel. Two characters are standing next to each other, one is tall and one is short. I think it's Gable standing next to someone (I don't remember who). The line is roughly "Standing next to him, she was barely 150cm tall." This phrasing is intended as a comparison of two things, with the one in the second being compared in proportion to the one in the first, where generally the second is considered exceptional in some way. For example "Next to him, she seemed small" for someone who is normally tall or "Next to the Jove, the Caldari seemed primitive" or similar. In the sentence as given, the character is ALWAYS 150cm tall, it doesn't matter who she is standing next to. Her height does not change when different people stand next to her. Additionally, she would seem short next to almost anyone. At 150cm, she is short for any adult woman.

There was also a tendency in the text to be repetitive with the class or type of a thing, especially early on. If a ship was established as a Panther-class gunship, every action would be performed by "the Panther-class gunship" as opposed to simply "the gunship". The same thing with weapons and the like. The text was written as if the reader needed to be constantly reminded of facts presented a paragraph or two before. Or like it was ham-fisted product placement ("This is most awesome Dodge Charger I've ever seen! I'm going to take this Dodge Charger out on a spin around town. Everyone will be so impressed with my new Dodge Charger.") I'm not sure if this problem arose simply because it was assumed the readers would be idiots (which is a cardinal sin in writing, in my opinion) or if it was an attempt to create some sort of DUST 514 "brand recognition".  Either way, it was abrasive and jarring.

The dialogue was at least unobtrusive. I rarely read a line and groaned because of how much it sounded like something nobody would ever say. But at the same time, it was not particularly striking. There were a lot of predictable conversations, with dialogue that was essentially generic and could have come from any of the characters.

Finally, there's the issue of the portrayal of women and how they're all essentially shown as weak, incompetent, and in the subservient to men. Others have touched on it better than I could. Suffice to say, when the most powerful and important women in the novel all have scenes where they're passively submitting to mental and sexualized domination by men, there's a problem.
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Gottii

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #125 on: 11 Feb 2012, 13:28 »

....

Im very much from an economic background, especially in my current field of work.  I think that the creation of labor and capital in a foreign market is, by necessity, an example of skillful cultural interaction.  It takes more than just money.  By thats an argument way, way outside the scope of this thread (like most of what I've said, alas).

Mostly I was reacting to Seri's inane "American culture is to blame for TonyG's poor sci-fi writing".  He would like to believe that American culture precludes good literature in general, and sci-fi in particular.  American culture didnt really stop such sci-fi authors like Isaac Asimov,  Robert Heinlein,  Ray Bradbury,  Philip K. Dick,  Frank Herbert, Ursula Le Guin, Orson Scott Card, Fred Saberhagen, Larry Niven, Joe Halderman, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Kim Stanley Robinson, Carl Sagan, Dan Simmons (just off the top of my head), did it?  In fact you could argue that there is something about American culture that actually produces a high number of good sci-fi writers.

In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth).   I found it ridiculous. 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread! 
« Last Edit: 11 Feb 2012, 13:34 by Gottii »
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Graelyn

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #126 on: 11 Feb 2012, 13:36 »

Great review, Yoshi!
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #127 on: 11 Feb 2012, 14:40 »

Yoshito Sanders nice summarisation. I see it the same way... (I had the same thought about the Panther gunship).

....

Im very much from an economic background, especially in my current field of work.  I think that the creation of labor and capital in a foreign market is, by necessity, an example of skillful cultural interaction.  It takes more than just money.  By thats an argument way, way outside the scope of this thread (like most of what I've said, alas).

Mostly I was reacting to Seri's inane "American culture is to blame for TonyG's poor sci-fi writing".  He would like to believe that American culture precludes good literature in general, and sci-fi in particular.  American culture didnt really stop such sci-fi authors like Isaac Asimov,  Robert Heinlein,  Ray Bradbury,  Philip K. Dick,  Frank Herbert, Ursula Le Guin, Orson Scott Card, Fred Saberhagen, Larry Niven, Joe Halderman, William Gibson, Greg Bear, Kim Stanley Robinson, Carl Sagan, Dan Simmons (just off the top of my head), did it?  In fact you could argue that there is something about American culture that actually produces a high number of good sci-fi writers.

In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth).   I found it ridiculous. 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!

Sure, sure... And Im a fan of it... just add Stanislaw Lem (I was a little Ijon Tichy fan)...
About the first point... like I said... I see it more under the influenz of Popper... so Im more in numbers (and I just dont just linked it because Im german, I think you right... If you think... that this topic isnt just numbers, but in numbers "we" are a little ahead... and were even "Weltmeister"/"world champion" from 2002 to 2008 until China got "our" first place :cry:....I think next to the actual numbers you have "soft institutions" (sanctions, taboos, customs, traditions, code of conduct), which are also importent, but also not to measure) ... If not the homo sociologicus..... Ehm maybe a RREEMM Model.... But like you said... very off topic  :P

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread! 

I also find it weird that Jonas Varitec had a charakter-gap... I mean from TEA to Templar One.... TEA ends for him, that he gets a drake and goes to the Kingdom... and in Templar One is he in the legion (without a privat-owned ship... how it looks)... I know, I know a narrator doesnt need to explain all of the stuff.... but it was a little ...ehm k, moment for me.

Edit: But it is only a minor thing.
« Last Edit: 11 Feb 2012, 17:47 by Publius Valerius »
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #128 on: 12 Feb 2012, 11:17 »

In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth).   I found it ridiculous. 

I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #129 on: 12 Feb 2012, 12:42 »

I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
Ooooh...sick burn. +1
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Myyona

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #130 on: 12 Feb 2012, 13:08 »

Just got the book and am looking forward to reading it (seriously).

Had a peek into the "Acknowledgments" chapter in the back, though. Hm, no mention of Abraxas (Hjalti Danielsson) along with the rest of the Content team. Weird... or not.
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Yoshito Sanders

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #131 on: 13 Feb 2012, 18:10 »

Just got the book and am looking forward to reading it (seriously).

Had a peek into the "Acknowledgments" chapter in the back, though. Hm, no mention of Abraxas (Hjalti Danielsson) along with the rest of the Content team. Weird... or not.

I noticed that too and also thought it was an odd omission. I am unsure if it is particularly meaningful, however.
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Gottii

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #132 on: 13 Feb 2012, 18:27 »

In short, he made an utterly ignorant and biased argument against another culture without having put much, if any, thought or effort into his position. He acted very "American" (ignorant when talking about/to other cultures, mistaking uneducated bias as obvious truth).   I found it ridiculous. 

I totally forgot: He doesnt act "American", he acted "Gallente".... we both, you and me, you and me... man, we know how they are... :P
 

:)
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Seriphyn

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #133 on: 15 Feb 2012, 16:04 »

I noticed that too and also thought it was an odd omission. I am unsure if it is particularly meaningful, however.

I think it is...as IP manager, TonyG isn't obliged to communicate down the ladder. If he did, the Content/Storyline team saying Jamyl is 100+ years old and TonyG saying she is 27 wouldn't have happened.
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Publius Valerius

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Re: Templar One [[Spoilers]]
« Reply #134 on: 24 Feb 2012, 19:04 »

First of all. I´m not in general on the opposite-side. But here have I to intervene. It is actually just the small point about companies as representation of the culture. I think, the doku "Amerika made in Hollywood" has made a good point about this... In short-form is, that a product alone can´t even define just elments of the culture like freedom or egalitarianism. Doesnt mean that companies sell it as a point to there products, see for example the World of Coca-Cola exhibition (sadly I cannt find a free link:(, but wasnt really funny, I would say just average  :lol:).


Saw this today and most think on this diskussion.... I know very off topic.... but was actually funny :P

So I hope you all can forgive me. :lol:
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