Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Makkal on 26 Jun 2012, 16:24
-
Makkal chatted in the Summit the other day about transhumanism and a Minmater made two claims I thought were interesting.
(Paraphrased)
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.
Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures? That sort of strict attitude toward gender is something I expect in Amarrian culture but none of the others. Then I went into the character creator and noticed that Galletean men can't have long hair or wear make-up while even Caldari women default to high heels.
Likewise, if you read the original blurbs for the races, there's both strict racial and gender segregation in the descriptions.
-
You've got a lot of questions in there. Could you maybe pick a couple to clarify, so we can discuss those?
"The Republic" probably doesn't have much of a take on gender, although I expect that a child's main tribal affiliation would default to being that of its mother. The tribe write-ups from chargen show that some of the tribes have gender tendencies, roles or stereotypes. The clans and sub-tribes that I've worked with have tended to have defined gender roles, although those might not be what you think.
You can play pretty much what you like. Especially once you become a podder there's a whole realm of "I am not my body" that we haven't had the game tools to explore. Use story tools instead.
There seems to be a common belief that podder psychosis and body dysphoria are somehow dealt with by requiring you to maintain clones which look alike. I think that's going to get increasingly hard to justify. It does, however, make things easieR for game design, and players are apparently more likely to bond with a specific avatar and keep playing.
-
The fact that gender is irrelevant beyond superficial appearance attributes when you create a character is quite telling. So is the apparent gender equality when you look at agents, NPC corporation leadership, and the Empress. Maybe you shouldn't read too much into all of that, but is does appear on the surface that even the extremely traditionalist societies like the Republic and the Empire have a degree of gender equality that exceeds anything in our own societies.
-
You've got a lot of questions in there.
... I have one question in there. :)
-
You've got a lot of questions in there.
... I have one question in there. :)
One question mark: lots of issues. :)
-
"The Republic" probably doesn't have much of a take on gender, although I expect that a child's main tribal affiliation would default to being that of its mother. The tribe write-ups from chargen show that some of the tribes have gender tendencies, roles or stereotypes. The clans and sub-tribes that I've worked with have tended to have defined gender roles, although those might not be what you think.
I guess it might depend if that child is of a patriarchal or matriarchal tribe.
-
"The Republic" probably doesn't have much of a take on gender, although I expect that a child's main tribal affiliation would default to being that of its mother. The tribe write-ups from chargen show that some of the tribes have gender tendencies, roles or stereotypes. The clans and sub-tribes that I've worked with have tended to have defined gender roles, although those might not be what you think.
I guess it might depend if that child is of a patriarchal or matriarchal tribe.
Note that I said "The Republic" there. I don't think the Republic would get involved in such matters except in cases where the tribes couldn't work things out. (Mother's group is patrilineal; father's group is matrilineal, for instance.)
Given what we know of Minmatar society--from the situation in the refugee camps to the fancy nightclubs for ritual sex--I also expect there's a reasonable amount of "father unknown" in certain sectors. "Maternity is fact: paternity is conjecture", especially in an environment where making paternity testing freely available isn't a priority over vaccinations and other basic healthcare. Therefore, I expect that if things get to being decided at Republic level they will default to following the mother's affiliations.
-
I think I recall one of the smaller cultures (Ni-Kunni?) having marked differences in gender rights, though I don't recall where I saw this...
-
Jin-Mei have, at least. They are quite mysogenous in their traditions if i recall correctly.
-
I always imagined the Brutor Tribe had markedly differing gender roles, given their emphasis on martial, athletic and physical training, and their use as slaves for dangerous jobs in the Empire (i.e. if a Holder wanted to use the slaves for dangerous manual labor, you likely would use the male slaves for the actual physical labor, since theyre both generally stronger and also ultimately disposable, whiling holding back the female slaves to use as breeding stock to replenish any losses). I imagined that would create the idea of differing gender expectations and roles.
-
Gender and the empires: I presume less gender equality in the ones with more focus on "traditional" values: ethnic Gallentean culture most-enlightened; Caldari and Minmatar fighting for the mid-ranks; Amarrian conservatives bringing up the rear.
Notes: desperate times and "anything goes" tactics, as in a slave revolt, tend to equalize gender roles. Point, Minmatar. Overly-strong repression of women is impractical: point Caldari. Empress Jamyl was a potential Imperial Heir before she ever popped out of, um, death to save the Empire. Point, Amarr.
Every single player-character culture lets women be capsuleers-- a role of significant responsibility and prestige. Point everybody.
Transhumanism and gender: fun topic, which our characters are potentially on the bleeding edge of. The possibilities for, ah, diverse experiences with transgender or similarly experimental surgery applied to jump clones are quite interesting, though this might not do anything extra for a capsuleer's mental health.
Worth exploring. Haven't seen anybody try. Conservative little Aria will not be the first and might well be the last.
I'd recommend that those with an interest in giving it a go approach the topic with some nuance: fascinating new experiences crossed with serious identity issues sounds like a fun recipe.
Bear in mind also that the very concept will push the hell out of certain player buttons, so it's probably better to approach the topic with, again, nuance, and ideally not develop a reputation for cybering, since that will tend to reduce thoughtful musings on identity and gender into the reactions people have to a sexual fetish.
-
The fact that gender is irrelevant beyond superficial appearance attributes when you create a character is quite telling. So is the apparent gender equality when you look at agents, NPC corporation leadership, and the Empress. Maybe you shouldn't read too much into all of that, but is does appear on the surface that even the extremely traditionalist societies like the Republic and the Empire have a degree of gender equality that exceeds anything in our own societies.
This is kinda why I asked for more explanation about the question.
Does it take the testimony of four women to balance the testimony of one man? Spirits, no! How testimony is credited will depend on the relative mana and clan/social connections of the witnesses, not on their sex or gender.
Do you have equal opportunity to work as an agent, or in any of the official roles in registered CONCORD NPC corporations? Yep.
Do you have social or physical obligations tied to your sex and fertility that would normally affect your life path? If you're a baseliner I'd say "Maybe", inclining towards "Probably yes". If you're a podder, "Probably no" unless you choose to continue a social role as part of your connection with a clan that expects that. (I play that our so-called "clones" are infertile unless there's some consciously-chosen bio-gene-engineering stuff going on.)
Do you have default social roles or expectations about your character that are determined by your sex? Chargen and tribe write-ups say "Yes". Brutor women go out and get what they want; Brutor men endure. Vherokior women are often heads of small family businesses; the Voluval ritual is exclusively handled by Vherokior shamans who, from the placement of the write-up, appear to be always men.
In Mata's dirtside clan all youngsters were expected to earn their rifles. It was mostly the young men, however, who went off to earn money fighting in various wars; and mostly the young women who did their higher study, learnt to run the clan businesses, and popped out at least one child in their mid-to-late teens "for the clan to raise". Could you work around that if it was clearly in everyone's interests to train the mind of a particular young man or send a particular young woman into a combat role? Yes, although those would be marked as being not-the-usual-way-of-things.
And I'm still not sure if this addresses the initial question, which seemed to have a blend of "How do we construct gender?" and "Huh, CCP kinda gave some us some odd gender choices which can easily play to sexualised gamer stereotypes, didn't they?".
-
I think I recall one of the smaller cultures (Ni-Kunni?) having marked differences in gender rights, though I don't recall where I saw this...
Ni-Kunni were described as being polygamous in the old CC descriptions, but that's been removed (I think). It was claimed this colored gender relations, but didn't go into much detail. The Ni-Kunni article on the Fiction Portal expands this into saying "their kings and tribal leaders had many wives, their regular dudes didn't."
-
I think I recall one of the smaller cultures (Ni-Kunni?) having marked differences in gender rights, though I don't recall where I saw this...
When the Jin-Mei joined the Federation the social standings of Jin-Mei women were woefully inadequate for liberal democracy. Much has changed since then, not the least by Jin-Mei women themselves grabbing the torch of equal opportunities by both hands and carrying it forward with fervor.
-
Makkal chatted in the Summit the other day about transhumanism and a Minmater made two claims I thought were interesting.
(Paraphrased)
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.
Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures? That sort of strict attitude toward gender is something I expect in Amarrian culture but none of the others. Then I went into the character creator and noticed that Galletean men can't have long hair or wear make-up while even Caldari women default to high heels.
Likewise, if you read the original blurbs for the races, there's both strict racial and gender segregation in the descriptions.
If you believe that the different races in EVE have overt gender roles and quirks or that the character creator is a good indicator for/against these or present any kind of evidence then you have been missing a lot of clues. I might get back ot this later when not supposed to be sleeping if it has not been covered in great detail until then.
-
If you believe that the different races in EVE have overt gender roles and quirks or that the character creator is a good indicator for/against these or present any kind of evidence then you have been missing a lot of clues. I might get back ot this later when not supposed to be sleeping if it has not been covered in great detail until then.
I await your wisdom with bated breath.
And I'm still not sure if this addresses the initial question, which seemed to have a blend of "How do we construct gender?" and "Huh, CCP kinda gave some us some odd gender choices which can easily play to sexualised gamer stereotypes, didn't they?".
A Matari character said two things:
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.
Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures?
-
Gender and the empires: I presume less gender equality in the ones with more focus on "traditional" values: ethnic Gallentean culture most-enlightened; Caldari and Minmatar fighting for the mid-ranks; Amarrian conservatives bringing up the rear.
I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.
-
I think the Amarr must be considered as the most conservative on that precise point, but to me that would be like a doubled edged sword. With their very feudal society I bet their dynasties and families would be completely based on a full gender predominance over said family lineage. Put a male as the head of the family, and the woman will only be seen as the housewife (even if with all the social positions and responsibilities it will give her), but put up a matrilineal marriage and I am pretty sure that the roles will be switched and the female will become the allmighty ruler here.
To me it sounds more like a society where the roles of each gender is subject to extremes.
-
I agree to some extent, Lyn.
But it's also PF that Amarrian women are fiercely protective of their family name and heritage, very matronly (even matriarchal to that regard) while the males are more about conducting business and being the spiritual head of the house.
It seems like the Amarr are definitely a society with very defined gender roles akin to lords and ladies of the court in medieval times.
-
one of the amarr cosmos missions makes mention of a Lord being succeeded not by his eldest son, but by his eldest daughter. This is apparently uncommon.
But that is Kador region. Kador is fairly traditional.
Other places in Amarr are different of course. You have Catiz Tash-Murkon for example.
-
Feudal doesn't have to equate to patriarchal (even if most historical precedents in the real world have been patriarchal):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_cognatic_primogeniture#Absolute_cognatic_primogeniture
-
And I'm still not sure if this addresses the initial question, which seemed to have a blend of "How do we construct gender?" and "Huh, CCP kinda gave some us some odd gender choices which can easily play to sexualised gamer stereotypes, didn't they?".
A Matari character said two things:
1. You have breasts and a vagina, which is why you think you're a woman.
2. I know you're a woman because you wear make-up and have long hair.
Are these generally held ideas within the Minmatar cultures?
I can't speak for "the Minmatar cultures". I can speculate, though.
I expect that there are fundamental concepts of female and male. (For starters, they seem to have gendered pronouns relating to physical sex, which is usually a sign that sex is considered a basic categorisation of people. RL Finnish gender-neutral pronouns rock, by the way.)
I expect that the tribal definitions of female and male are related to the possession of primary sexual characteristics (genitals/apparent reproductive organs).
I expect that Minmatar cultures assume and are to some extent shaped around the old-fashioned biological reproduction which is the norm for most Matari. The ways they're shaped could vary greatly.
EVE-the-game puts quite a bit of emphasis on secondary sexual characteristics (breasts, shoulders, waist:hip ratios). I expect that there will be some variance in how Minmatar cultures consider, value and display these.
EVE-the-game puts quite a bit of emphasis on different social sexual characteristics, mostly designed to distinguish between sexes (different hairstyles, different cosmetic use, different shoes leading to different posture and presumably different gaits, coverage of female nipples but not male nipples). I expect there'd be a huge range of ways that Matari cultures handled these.
The chargen tools are such that, as a player, you can generally tell the assigned sex of a character. It's possible to play with this: CCP Seagull (https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/CCP%20Seagull) does a good example of an androgyne, for instance. If you want to play indeterminate gender, maybe try that and shrug at CONCORD's fuddy-duddy requirement that you tick one of their oh-so-limited sex options on the licence form.
Once you become a podder, I'd argue that all sex-and-gender stuff is optional. Some of us may stick with it because we come from clans with strong gender roles and we want to continue to relate to the clan in some semblance of a normal mode. For now--remembering that cloning pod pilots have been around only about a decade--there's still a legal/superstitious requirement that your meat bodies be shaped to look like the old biological "you", with arguments made that this helps you stay sane. "Realistically", I'd expect that to change over time, but whether it changes in-game will depend on what CCP's game designers think about players bonding with avatars.
But really? There's lots of potential for running with "That was my body then: I am no longer my body". There's also potential for others to glorify the enhanced physical aspects of pod experience and question whether someone slipped alcohol in your serum if you seem to be a perpetual misfit or grumpypants.
-
Now that was a wonderful answer. +1 Like.
-
one of the amarr cosmos missions makes mention of a Lord being succeeded not by his eldest son, but by his eldest daughter. This is apparently uncommon.
But that is Kador region. Kador is fairly traditional.
Other places in Amarr are different of course. You have Catiz Tash-Murkon for example.
It can depends on a lot of things. I would bet too that most holder families across the whole Empire are ruled by the standard patriarchal agnatic-cognatic primogeniture succession law. I bet it would also be the case of some merchants and rich commoners that tend to evolve more or less close to holders and noble circles, and probably in most modest families too. Arranged marriages might also be common.
Anyway under that kind of succession law it can definitly happen for a family to have for example only daughters, or that all the sons have died. In that case daughters will inherit.
And then yes, I would bet that a lot of the most liberal families would have succession laws based on true-cognatic or even fairer laws based on separation of the family goods between all the sons (and daughters). But in that last case I doubt it would be pretty common for Holders at least, since it implies the separation of the family lands and properties.
-
This has been touched on this thread before but I would like to emphasize it.
Changing bodies and sex is not easy as changing your pants even if you are a capsuleer.
Your body is the means that you experience your life with, altering it will change your worldview immediately in very concrete ways, changing your sex will alter it in a very dramatic way which ,as said before, could lead to mental problems.
A whole new set of hormones will do your head in pretty fast, not to mention the fact that you have no idea how to move in the body that is structurally different (bone structure) and with quite different capabilities (the difference of muscle tissue). Another thing is that the brain is different for the different sexes.
Also the social aspects that are around sexuality hit you immediately.
Of course the infomorph training that is based on the Reborn deals with these kinds of things to an extent, but I think it gives you the knowledge how to deal with it, not the actual application part of it.
A Reborn has a lifetime to deal with things like this (plus a special social status) unlike a body jumping capsuleer.
Equality of the sexes?
State probably has some built in gender roles, just because male and female have different natural aptitudes, brainwise and bodywise. Which on a societal scale would mean that males have a tendency to dominate some areas of the society while some areas are dominated by females. Segregation by gender in the State does not exist, it is just there.
The Republic is probably closest to the State in this respect, only that the gender roles are celebrated and glorified through ancestor worship, teaching by storytelling, traditional rituals and various minor deities.
I would argue that the Federation and the Empire are very alike in their approach to gender roles.
It is just the motivation and the cause behind the gender roles is different.
In Federation all genders are equal in the eyes of the law.
In the Empire all genders are equal in the eyes of God.
I believe that the same evolutionary pull that is in the State and the Republic is present in the Federation and the Empire, it is just constantly being fought by the indoctrinating tools of the cultures.
While in the Federation you could come across propaganda akin to that of the WW2-era States/Soviet Union, in the Empire you would come across stories about canonized Saints that overcame their evolutionary tendencies and found glory in God. (I believe that the Minmatar and the Amarr use storytelling as a primary tool of cultural indoctrination.)
-
Is there anything stopping ethnic Gallente culture(s) being matriarchal? The whole sexualization of women...for example, IRL, it can be said women sexualize themselves as a form of rebellion against the old guard of pre-1960s Christian morality. However, the Gallente never had anything like a Christian undertone to their society, and even if they did, it's been extinct for hundreds/thousands of years. Cultures are rarely decadent for the sake of it, I feel. There may be some far-back reaching reason for it. Might have something to do with the Caille goddess, for example.
Anyway, I too have always seen the Caldari genders as 'equal' but only because the genders are sort of asexualized, with little distinction between the two. On the other hand, the Gallente genders are 'equal' but are still distinct from one another. "Mars and Venus" thing as Matariki pointed out elsewhere.
-
Given what we know of Minmatar society--from the situation in the refugee camps to the fancy nightclubs for ritual sex--I also expect there's a reasonable amount of "father unknown" in certain sectors. "Maternity is fact: paternity is conjecture", especially in an environment where making paternity testing freely available isn't a priority over vaccinations and other basic healthcare. Therefore, I expect that if things get to being decided at Republic level they will default to following the mother's affiliations.
something about this, made me think.
It was along the lines of, a Minmatar woman would tend to have the idea that 3 children is something to aim for.
And the choices of fathers for them would be quite different.
This would not be frowned upon, because the culture has an entirely different view of "promiscuity".
Anyway, the idea was along the lines of:
1 child for the Tribe.
1 child for the Clan.
1 child for Me.
The child for the Tribe would have father suggested by the Tribal leaders, for overall benefit to the Tribe, to stir the gene pool, and whatnot. There may or may not be a Tribal ritual thing like a festival of fertility or whatever, for this sort of purpose. Random encounters with other Tribe members in the nightclubs could be another method of stirring the gene pool of the Tribe.
The child for the Clan would be to benefit the mother's Clan and its position in the Tribe.
The child for Me, would be mother's free choice.
And this would lend itself to various playground insults between children, depending on their ancestry. "Mum's child" could be used to suggest that the childs mother made a bad choice. "clanny" could suggest derogatory things about "social climbing" or other such things. "Tribey" may insinuate things too.
Children can be so cruel...
-
As for Kador being traditionalist, I can't help but to point out to the great third cousin of Emperor Heideran VII: Her royal holiness Temal, the Heir of Kador.
And oh, this Jamyl lass was a legit Heir, too.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Emperorship_Heirs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Emperorship_Heirs)
-
A Louella response to respond to: yay!
First, the usual disclaimers: It's a big cluster. The main tribes probably have trillions of members (certainly lots of billions). Tribal is not the same as primitive--one of the attractions of Minmatar is the chance to play high-tech tribal--but the economics of things mean the future is very unevenly distributed. There are people getting by (or not) in camps and shanty-towns. I know at least one podder from a very "nice" well-off urban clan who got her first civilian implants as an adolescent, was expected to study hard and succeed academically, and went to the local equivalent of ballet classes with other children from "nice" clans. There are lots of ways to play Minmatar.
So some of the things I'm going to talk about here, while they work for parts of society that Mata knows, would have some other Matari characters I know turn up their noses at the idea of sex or (spirits!) pregnancy with someone who wasn't an appropriate match for their social position.
Given what we know of Minmatar society--from the situation in the refugee camps to the fancy nightclubs for ritual sex--I also expect there's a reasonable amount of "father unknown" in certain sectors. "Maternity is fact: paternity is conjecture", especially in an environment where making paternity testing freely available isn't a priority over vaccinations and other basic healthcare. Therefore, I expect that if things get to being decided at Republic level they will default to following the mother's affiliations.
something about this, made me think.
It was along the lines of, a Minmatar woman would tend to have the idea that 3 children is something to aim for.
And the choices of fathers for them would be quite different.
This would not be frowned upon, because the culture has an entirely different view of "promiscuity".
Anyway, the idea was along the lines of:
1 child for the Tribe.
1 child for the Clan.
1 child for Me.
The child for the Tribe would have father suggested by the Tribal leaders, for overall benefit to the Tribe, to stir the gene pool, and whatnot. There may or may not be a Tribal ritual thing like a festival of fertility or whatever, for this sort of purpose. Random encounters with other Tribe members in the nightclubs could be another method of stirring the gene pool of the Tribe.
The child for the Clan would be to benefit the mother's Clan and its position in the Tribe.
The child for Me, would be mother's free choice.
And this would lend itself to various playground insults between children, depending on their ancestry. "Mum's child" could be used to suggest that the childs mother made a bad choice. "clanny" could suggest derogatory things about "social climbing" or other such things. "Tribey" may insinuate things too.
Children can be so cruel...
A simplified version of this is pretty much what I play as the norm for Mata's sub-tribe. I skip the "Tribe" level, though, because the tribe is just too big to comprehend in that way. Tribe is more like... an ethnicity, or a network of clan chieftains advising sub-tribe chieftains advising tribal councils advising the clan chief. The things that affect the direction of your life come from closer by; from the elders of your clan. In Mata's case that's from "the aunties".
One of the (many) things I threw into the character of Mata was a desire to play a Natalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalism). It's something I didn't "get" IRL and wanted to explore. So from Mata's cultural viewpoint having children is good. Having at least one child (in Mata's matrilineal clan particularly a daughter) to continue your line and to perform the ancestor rites for you once you die is Very Important. Having more, to strengthen the clan and bring you support and mana, is a Good Thing. The custom is to have your first child young, for the clan to raise, and to continue on with your studies and finding your place. (RL connection: one of my friends had a fight on her hands when her husband's mother expected to take the first grandchild to raise. Big clash of cultures.)
To support this practically, and because it tied in with the kind of communal living I wanted to explore, Mata's clan does communal child-rearing that draws on aspects of kibbutzim, marae and 1980s-NZ-communes.
Remember that up until about 12 years ago the clan was sending young people--mostly young men--into the meat-grinder that was the Vindication Wars. That's had a huge impact on its age profile and gender balance. (The current less-lethal level of military activity is probably going to cause some re-thinking of a few things. We really need to work out what to do with our men now that more of them are surviving to adulthood.)
Among Mata's people the main local "festival" you refer to would be the gathering of the clans of her sub-tribe that's called every few years. That contributes to a spike in the birth rate of the clans which defines the beginning of a new age-cohort of children. That's a political and cultural event as well as a chance to mix up the gene-pool, but I imagine that when it comes to trying to get the young women pregnant there's a blend of young hormones, elderly advice and machination, and some outright throwing of flowers before the sub-tribal leaders. It's generally not something Mata will talk about in front of outsiders, because they don't understand.
You can tell from the naming customs, by the way, which children have acknowledged fathers and which don't. "Festival" children get pretty words usually associated with natural or seasonal phenomena in the place where a father's clan-name would otherwise go. (Trinominal system: <given name> <father's clan name or festival name> <(mother's) clan name>.) Mata's choice of names to use on her CONCORD licence turns out to be significant.
-
I thought of another taunt/insult somewhat relating to this.
Someone with a lot of children, may be called something like "the Holder's prize cow", or similar. This is extremely insulting, naturally.
Child A and Child B are fighting, and Child A says "your mum's the prize cow!". Child B becomes angry as a result. Mother B is likely to have strong words with Mother A when she finds out.
-
For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
-
That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
Mmmm, Steak....
-
For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
What? Is this as perverted as it sounds?
-
For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8564/1314478615704.jpg)
-
For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/8564/1314478615704.jpg)
I lol'd so hard
-
I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.
How does this square with the strong suggestions in PF that the Caldari society is somewhat homophobic? I seem to recall discussing this in person with Dropbear as well, although I was somewhat into my cups at that point and could be remembering incorrectly.
-
I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.
How does this square with the strong suggestions in PF that the Caldari society is somewhat homophobic? I seem to recall discussing this in person with Dropbear as well, although I was somewhat into my cups at that point and could be remembering incorrectly.
I think the homophobic thing just plain doesn't jive with the rest of the PF about Caldari. Caldari PF seems to emphasize they keep their private lives private, so why would it matter what sexuality someone is in private?
The ONLY reason I can see the Caldari caring about homosexuality is because homosexuals do not reproduce. That would have been a big issue for the State shortly after evacuating their homeworld.
-
How does this square with the strong suggestions in PF that the Caldari society is somewhat homophobic? I seem to recall discussing this in person with Dropbear as well, although I was somewhat into my cups at that point and could be remembering incorrectly.
I think the homophobic thing just plain doesn't jive with the rest of the PF about Caldari. Caldari PF seems to emphasize they keep their private lives private, so why would it matter what sexuality someone is in private?
The ONLY reason I can see the Caldari caring about homosexuality is because homosexuals do not reproduce. That would have been a big issue for the State shortly after evacuating their homeworld.
Peunato, an extremely competent pilot, was forced out of the Caldari Navy when he revealed he was gay. Since joining the Guristas, Peunato has been instrumental in expanding their power and influence.
I have a vague sense that there may have been something in a chron, too, and maybe something in a broader write-up about the Guristas, saying that one of the reasons they grew so fast was that they didn't care about sexual orientation and provided a safe harbour for people who wouldn't be safe in the State.
-
I think the homophobic thing just plain doesn't jive with the rest of the PF about Caldari. Caldari PF seems to emphasize they keep their private lives private, so why would it matter what sexuality someone is in private?
One way of interpreting what we see is that people get punished for revealing that they're homosexual, not for being homosexual. That might be because if you tell people you're LGBT, you get ostracised because you're suddenly the square peg in a nation of round ... err, you know what I mean, right?
-
I think the homophobic thing just plain doesn't jive with the rest of the PF about Caldari. Caldari PF seems to emphasize they keep their private lives private, so why would it matter what sexuality someone is in private?
One way of interpreting what we see is that people get punished for revealing that they're homosexual, not for being homosexual. That might be because if you tell people you're LGBT, you get ostracised because you're suddenly the square peg in a nation of round ... err, you know what I mean, right?
That's more or less how I interpret it, yes. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" in a very real and widespread way.
-
I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.
How does this square with the strong suggestions in PF that the Caldari society is somewhat homophobic? I seem to recall discussing this in person with Dropbear as well, although I was somewhat into my cups at that point and could be remembering incorrectly.
I don't see how it's related at all, to be honest.
Sexual orientation =/= gender. My statement was that the Caldari don't concern themselves with gender when it comes to rights and merit. I made no comment at all regarding sexual orientation in the State.
Frankly, I imagine the issue with homosexuals in the State is that it's typically considered unproductive to society as they cannot reproduce. Furthermore, marriage in the State is very likely a contractual affair with most of them being arranged to some degree, a homosexual cannot typically be married off to increase political or economic gain or influence nor will they be able to provide future generations of the family name and generations of employees for their corporation.
-
I would have to disagree slightly. Caldari have absolutely no consideration for gender when it comes to rights, social standing and income. They don't concern themselves at all with superficial things like gender and appearance, it's about merit and capability with an emphasis on what can be provided for the whole not what the individual is. This viewpoint is also represented in "Views of the Caldari" and I believe I read it somewhere in PF as well.
How does this square with the strong suggestions in PF that the Caldari society is somewhat homophobic? I seem to recall discussing this in person with Dropbear as well, although I was somewhat into my cups at that point and could be remembering incorrectly.
I don't see how it's related at all, to be honest.
Sexual orientation =/= gender. My statement was that the Caldari don't concern themselves with gender when it comes to rights and merit. I made no comment at all regarding sexual orientation in the State.
Frankly, I imagine the issue with homosexuals in the State is that it's typically considered unproductive to society as they cannot reproduce. Furthermore, marriage in the State is very likely a contractual affair with most of them being arranged to some degree, a homosexual cannot typically be married off to increase political or economic gain or influence nor will they be able to provide future generations of the family name and generations of employees for their corporation.
Exactly. It would very much be a case of "You're choosing your preferences over the needs of the State." That typically doesn't go over well among the State.
-
@ Mata - there is definitely a chron about it. http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07
@ Kat and Malcolm: in a society with tube children, the link between sexuality and reproduction would be much less strong. Where did you read about Caldari marriage? I'd like to look it up, I can't recall reading anything that even indicates life-long pair-bonding is the norm.
-
Same-sex couple fertility options are already available at even our comparatively limited technology level IRL. If I'd venture a guess, it is that homophobia is one of the prototypical attitudes of an authoritarian (fascist/despotic) regime, so it fits in with the rest of the trope-riddled portrayals of the major powers that has taken shape over the years.
Yes, that should come off sounding as bitter as it did :9.
-
Same-sex couple fertility options are already available at even our comparatively limited technology level IRL. If I'd venture a guess, it is that homophobia is one of the prototypical attitudes of an authoritarian (fascist/despotic) regime, so it fits in with the rest of the trope-riddled portrayals of the major powers that has taken shape over the years.
Yes, that should come off sounding as bitter as it did :9.
Would you qualify that statement?
In general, I can see intolerance towards male homosexuality in the Caldari State because it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children. Our current understanding postulates with some certainty that female homosexuals can genetically reproduce with technological aid. The Caldari to my understanding have a great importance on having children, not in adopting or accepting vagabonds/unwanted.
This would mean male homosexuality in particular would be seen as vastly undesirable as it is a reproductive dead end. You're not doing your duty to the Caldari people, essentially.
-
For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?
Hey Aldy, if you want a prized bull, you know where to find me....
-
Same-sex couple fertility options are already available at even our comparatively limited technology level IRL. If I'd venture a guess, it is that homophobia is one of the prototypical attitudes of an authoritarian (fascist/despotic) regime, so it fits in with the rest of the trope-riddled portrayals of the major powers that has taken shape over the years.
Yes, that should come off sounding as bitter as it did :9.
Would you qualify that statement?
In general, I can see intolerance towards male homosexuality in the Caldari State because it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children. Our current understanding postulates with some certainty that female homosexuals can genetically reproduce with technological aid. The Caldari to my understanding have a great importance on having children, not in adopting or accepting vagabonds/unwanted.
This would mean male homosexuality in particular would be seen as vastly undesirable as it is a reproductive dead end. You're not doing your duty to the Caldari people, essentially.
But just as a female's genetic material can be put into a sperm, a male's can be implanted into an egg (that's my understanding). So both same-sex pairings can at least produce a zygote. Naturally males have the additional requirement of securing a surrogate (or an artificial womb, if such a thing were available) in order to bring the fetus to term.
-
it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children.
It's certainly known to the Caldari: in tubes. With the other tubeys.
-
@ Cia - Thanks for the link. Also, "Yuck".
@ A bunch of others - Do we need a guide to passing? The Caldari Closet Book, perhaps? Complete with suggestions for things to think about while doing your reproductive duty.
@ Syllara - It's not that simple. Look up mitochondrial DNA, for one thing. (I'm on the phone with a lousy connection, so no links from me.)
-
But just as a female's genetic material can be put into a sperm, a male's can be implanted into an egg (that's my understanding). So both same-sex pairings can at least produce a zygote. Naturally males have the additional requirement of securing a surrogate (or an artificial womb, if such a thing were available) in order to bring the fetus to term.
it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children.
It's certainly known to the Caldari: in tubes. With the other tubeys.
Admittedly, I am grasping at straws a fair bit. I am hoping to find some sticking point where Caldari homophobia isn't a straight export of our modern day values...
To my understanding, our modern science has realized / postulated that stem cells can be created into the appropriate sperm/zygote. 20,000 years of FutureTech most likely means this should be a very feasible process, getting over the hurdle of genetic material for reproduction. (Cloning in itself makes massive usage of stem cells if I recall that scientific article) There are two canon non-conventional human breeding techniques used (to my knowledge) : Caldari Tube Children and the Jovian Birthing Tubes/Pods/things.
The exact function of the Caldari Tube Children machines is beyond me, but let us presume they follow very basic principles. Sperm meets zygote, LIGHTNING BOLTS, the tube provides the needs for the growing fetus etcetra. The input for genetic material is from the sperm and zygote. That would appear to me as the problem zone.
To the extent of my knowledge, it should be feasible for homosexuals to artificially create a sperm/zygote from stem cells. One contributes what they natively possess, and the other follows stem cell magicraft and creates the corresponding genetic piece. Women have the choice of involving themselves in the process at this stage, with one or both partners becoming pregnant. Men cannot, so they have to use either surrogates or artificial alternatives (which I think we can safely agree exist).
[spoiler]I imagine there might be negative connotations to being a surrogate for someone who isn't your wife/husband/potato. The connotation would probably affect the surrogate the most (e.g, "oh you're carrying someone else's child and not your own"), and I am not certain how much it would affect the genetic provider(s). Presumably there would be shame in not having a conventional partner to procreate with? Food for thought as an aside.[/spoiler]
What is the social results of providing genetic material to the Tube Child Program, and are there problems with couples (homosexuals or otherwise) specifically using it to create their children? Is the Tube Child Program considered a giant communal DNA reservoir for mass producing people? Is it considered unCaldari to not take pro-active measures to procreate by doing the deed yourself?
That is the farthest I can logically take the Caldari homophobia. As the Caldari detest the homeless/vagabonds/vagrants/etcetra, not Doing The Deed is probably considered extremely lazy/dishonorable/unCaldari, and probably torpedoes careers and job advancement.
[spoiler]Or maybe the Caldari are really asshurt that the Ishukone CEO got rammed by a Nyx[/spoiler]
Edit :
Actually the most useful piece of information that I could use for Crystal Ball II usage would be : what happens when a homosexual pair, after Doing The Deed conventionally, are outted and have children the 'Caldari Way' ?
That could tell a lot.
-
I find it more plausible that the status of homosexuality in the State is an outgrown of specifically Caldari values, perhaps religious, rather than it having roots in the kind of 'explanation' often given for homophobia in our own societies - gender anxiety or reproductive fears. That, to me, is more of an export of our own contemporary values. If attitudes to homosexuality in the State aren't linked to 20th century fascist societies (where homophobia was generally paired with strong emphasis on gendered roles), or to fears of racial extinction, then what does it say about the State? What can we, as RPers, come up with in that gap?
-
@ Syllara - It's not that simple. Look up mitochondrial DNA, for one thing. (I'm on the phone with a lousy connection, so no links from me.)
It is "not simple" in the sense that it is on the bleeding edge of genetic/bio-science here in the real world 21st century.
In a setting where my character's consciousness can transport itself across the cluster into a waiting clone, it might well be "a simple procedure any 'genetics tech' can perform during their first year internship."
But in the overall, we're waaaaay out on a limb here, in general :9.
-
I would like to point out that the "Tube Child" program has been largely "privatized" in the State now, meaning that it's no longer State supported so the notion that homosexual couples can just have tube children is a little bit of a stretch since society as a whole isn't likely to see this as an option.
There's no canonical PF that explains how marriage works in the State, at least none that I could find. If we take into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari however, it's not hard to imagine that it's likely treated in a very contractual, business-like manner with less emphasis on love and emotion and more on corporate/familial gain and status.
Regarding homosexuality, beyond the reasons I provided, I imagine a large part of it is simply "this is what defines a strong Caldari male" and "this is what defines a strong Caldari female" stereotypes are very commonplace in a conformity society like the State. Homosexuality is likely frowned upon as being in opposition (or at least very different) from those expectations. Combined with the issues that have already been explained, the social pressure to "be all that you can be" and the Caldari mindset to conform and excel, you get the picture.
-
I would like to point out that the "Tube Child" program has been largely "privatized" in the State now, meaning that it's no longer State supported so the notion that homosexual couples can just have tube children is a little bit of a stretch since society as a whole isn't likely to see this as an option.
Specifically in reference to the idea that homosexuality is frowned upon because it is non-reproductive sexual behaviour, it is irrelevant whether artificial reproduction is run by the State (a nebulous concept at the best of times given Caldari social organisation) or the megas. My point is that the link between sexual activity and reproduction is broken, for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. And on that topic, what do we know about Caldari familial organisation, or the prevalence of 'traditional' conception and pregnancy? Would the megas leave their future generations' genetic makeup to the lottery of physical and romantic attraction?
There's no canonical PF that explains how marriage works in the State, at least none that I could find. If we take into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari however, it's not hard to imagine that it's likely treated in a very contractual, business-like manner with less emphasis on love and emotion and more on corporate/familial gain and status.
See, I would say that taking into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari, it's not hard to imagine that sexual relationships are an intensely private affair and completely separate from the public and corporate lives of the individuals concerned, and regarded as such so long as they do not raise any questions of conflict of professional interest. Reproductive matters, on the other hand, it's easy to imagine are a matter of duty to the corporation - both positive duty, to deposit your genetic material in the corporate bank, and negative duty, to not go getting recklessly pregnant to the 'wrong' person, either genetically or corporately.
Regarding homosexuality, beyond the reasons I provided, I imagine a large part of it is simply "this is what defines a strong Caldari male" and "this is what defines a strong Caldari female" stereotypes are very commonplace in a conformity society like the State. Homosexuality is likely frowned upon as being in opposition (or at least very different) from those expectations. Combined with the issues that have already been explained, the social pressure to "be all that you can be" and the Caldari mindset to conform and excel, you get the picture.
I agree that stereotypes are likely to be very commonplace in a society that values conformity. However, in our own history there are examples of societies which viewed male homosexuality as the epitome of male strength, and male heterosexuality as a weakness (wanting to spill your seed in a weak woman? What kind of limp-wrist are you?). Homosexuality being frowned on as different to the stereotypes prevalent in the State doesn't explain what those stereotypes are, or where they come from.
-
I can't answer any of your questions Ciarente because I'm not a writer of PF, I'm only a player going with what information I have and trying to draw conclusions from it.
As has been pointed it, PF suggests that public homosexuality is a bad thing in the State and it is likely kept private and quiet. All I can do is speculate from there.
-
Oh, I don't expect answers - I just find the questions more interesting (especially for RPing my Caldari characters) than the assumptions.
-
In that case, I don't imagine Caldari having male-to-male homosexuality being a good thing (specifically for the reason you listed) primarily because there's no indication at all that women are seen as "weaker" in Caldari society. There's a strong emphasis in Caldari society that an individual will succeed and excel based entirely on their individual qualifications and merit, regardless of gender, birth, etc.
Obviously this got obfuscated a bit when things became more of an aristocracy before Heth's rise to power (with birth and societal standing dictating a person's "place" instead of individual merit), but that has been being reformed out. Given the military traditions of the Caldari, it seems logical (to me, at least) that sexuality is something pretty much kept on the "down low" and being a very private affair.
I can't help but think that the opposition to public homosexuality is largely a matter of social expectations built upon the idea of family being the smallest measure of community in the State and PF hinting to family honor and position being highly important to Caldari citizens. A disfavorable outlook on what is seen as "non-traditional" families enforces conformity and the State could easily use its favorite weapon (propaganda) to explain how it's the duty of each citizen to contribute to a family, which contributes to a corp, which contributes to the State and largely frowning upon homosexuality as being outside of these expectations.
I think the majority of Caldari simply don't consider it a matter of public affair and when confronted with it will default to the State's conformity expectations and/or use the information to weaken the individual in order to gain their own advancement in the corporate ladder.
/shrug
-
A note in passing:
Tube Child
Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. While this program is no longer sponsored by the State, the Tube Children of today were raised in inhospitable, government-run orphanages. Many are fiercely independent, strong individuals loyal to the Caldari State.
I'd taken this to mean that the tube child programme had happened and had then stopped, rather than that it had once been State sponsored (I typoed "sponsired"...) and then went to the corps. I wouldn't die in a ditch over it, but I'd be interested in whether there's other info with bearing on that, since in this thread we seem to be heading in the direction of assuming that the Caldari somewhat-routinely separate sex and reproduction. Clearly they can, and they have: do they still?
I echo the question about family: could we do a PF dive for anything that mentions Caldari families?
And Malcolm, did you read the ending of the chron Cia linked? We're not talking about looking the other way so you can get on with something disapproved of, but walking away while you're crushed, and justifying it because you were, by definition, self-destructive.
Do we have anything on women-loving women in the State? The corp CEO who tended her creepy garden: anything there, either factual or in the threats made to her?
-
In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.
He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.
My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.
-
In that case, I don't imagine Caldari having male-to-male homosexuality being a good thing (specifically for the reason you listed) primarily because there's no indication at all that women are seen as "weaker" in Caldari society. There's a strong emphasis in Caldari society that an individual will succeed and excel based entirely on their individual qualifications and merit, regardless of gender, birth, etc.
How about "based on their individual qualifications and merit regardless of sexuality?"
I was also thinking how interesting it would be if artificial wombs were in much wider use, hey why have these qualified, productive women taken out of work for maternity leave? But that opens a whole other can of worms! *quietly sidesteps*
Obviously this got obfuscated a bit when things became more of an aristocracy before Heth's rise to power (with birth and societal standing dictating a person's "place" instead of individual merit), but that has been being reformed out. Given the military traditions of the Caldari, it seems logical (to me, at least) that sexuality is something pretty much kept on the "down low" and being a very private affair.
I can't help but think that the opposition to public homosexuality is largely a matter of social expectations built upon the idea of family being the smallest measure of community in the State and PF hinting to family honor and position being highly important to Caldari citizens. A disfavorable outlook on what is seen as "non-traditional" families enforces conformity and the State could easily use its favorite weapon (propaganda) to explain how it's the duty of each citizen to contribute to a family, which contributes to a corp, which contributes to the State and largely frowning upon homosexuality as being outside of these expectations.
Well, I accept that the question of ability to reproduce is unanswered, but assuming it is an available option, they are still able to "contribute" in the way you describe.
I think the majority of Caldari simply don't consider it a matter of public affair and when confronted with it will default to the State's conformity expectations and/or use the information to weaken the individual in order to gain their own advancement in the corporate ladder.
/shrug
But that again goes back to the point that someone is using prejudice and fear to advance rather than merit. Not that I'm saying it isn't possible, just one more example of how meritocracy might be the cultural ideal, but still isn't quite as purely practiced as the proponents would like.
-
But that again goes back to the point that someone is using prejudice and fear to advance rather than merit. Not that I'm saying it isn't possible, just one more example of how meritocracy might be the cultural ideal, but still isn't quite as purely practiced as the proponents would like.
I didn't think this was ever in question, to be honest. Nothing in New Eden happens according to the "ideal." It's always rife with corruption, back-dealing, nuance and shadiness - the State is no exception.
Yes, I read the article Mataraki but I think I've been misunderstood. I'm not saying people simply ignore it - I'm saying that people tend to keep it private and not make a deal out of their sexuality. The fact that The Rabbit made a big deal out of it (supposedly) would cause unwanted ripples in the society which would garner him negative attention REGARDLESS of what the source of those ripples was.
I can't speak for how the State views homosexuality and all of the finer details because I honestly don't know, I can only speculate (which I've said like four times now) and based on those speculations, I get the impression that the Caldari tend to have a very rigid, militant, conformity society that doesn't appreciate someon ruffling the feathers, so to speak. In the case of homosexuality, it's probably one of those "don't ask, don't tell" situations (as has been said in this thread already) and making a public deal out of it is considered a bad idea.
-
@ Mata - I'm not sure when the Tube Child program started, but my impression is that it was back when the State was new and underpopulated, and you can still roll a Tube Child character today, meaning that if it started in the early days of the Caldari-Gallente war it went on for a good long time - long enough to change attitudes, I would argue.
@ Kat - the chron "In the Electric Museum" suggests it goes a good bit deeper than that.
it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.
-
it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.
This is a very legitimate point.
-
it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.
That's what I was alluding to earlier, I was just being too lazy to go into the whole cultural control strategy of defining some "other" entity to ostracize as an "enemy image" to focus opinion against. So yeah, you're spot on :9.
@Malcolm: we're all speculating and I get the feeling we're all aware we're just speculating, I hope I haven't given the impression of challenging your thoughts as a lot of them are quite worth considering, I merely throwing more stuff at the wall until something sticks (or see if it also sticks because, hey, there's a lot of corps, systems and planets out there).
For example, while it always seems intuitive to take something from a chron, article or news story and extrapolate from it, sometimes I wonder if these things show up in those sources because they were shocking and out of the ordinary. The Hyasyoda employee being detained by CPD agents a few years back could be read either way...is this normal (even if it is a "new normal") or was this a gross over-reach by a central State entity that violated corporate sovereignty? I just like to study things from multiple perspectives and yours is appreciated. If I find it interesting, I pick at it, if I think it's silly I roll my eyes and move on. In text sometimes it can seem counter-intuitive because if I like it, sometimes it can seem like I'm attacking it :9.
-
I think it may go very well with the Caldari society, much like with the Amarrian one. There is the need for more demographics as suggested, but the Caldari culture is also a culture very oriented around the cult of the soldier/warrior. As silly as it may sound, you can look at it RL as well, it is not a coincidence if people use expressions that I personally despise to the highest level but that nevertheless exist, like "you do not have the balls to do it". It refers obviously to the male anatomy and virility, masculinity. It refers to a conservative view of society coming from our very biological roots where the male is a hunter/gatherer and the female a mother for the children. Maybe I am making shortcuts, and probably I am. But emancipation does not sound Caldari at all to me, who are very traditionnalists in their culture (vs their very liberal ways when it comes to science, etc).
And yes, I definitly agree that Caldari and Amarr do think that what happens in private remains in private. It is a strong feature of both cultures, but when it starts to spread in public, well... public outrage. I am not speaking about rationality here, at the contrary, but things in most cultures do not always make a lot of sense.
________
On a quick note, it is already possible these days RL to make two female gametes to produce an (obviously female) child. Japenese scientists did it with female mices. No sperm involved.
-
@ Mata - I'm not sure when the Tube Child program started, but my impression is that it was back when the State was new and underpopulated, and you can still roll a Tube Child character today, meaning that if it started in the early days of the Caldari-Gallente war it went on for a good long time - long enough to change attitudes, I would argue.
Hmmm... 'kay, I think it started more recently than that:
Tube Child
Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population.
That suggests it got started only last generation. I got the impression it went for maybe a decade or two, and that we happen to be in the window for that generation growing up. Again, I think there's a slightly more detailed write-up somewhere.
-
Eve wiki says "have for decades utilized artificial procreation ..."
I presume that's the old version of the char gen text which has been ret-conned?
-
who looks after the old in Caldari society?
it may stem from concepts of duty and family. Not having children, who would look after you in your old age, may be seen as very selfish, particularly for some socio-economic groups maybe more than others.
-
who looks after the old in Caldari society?
it may stem from concepts of duty and family. Not having children, who would look after you in your old age, may be seen as very selfish, particularly for some socio-economic groups maybe more than others.
This is also a good point. If a retired person has no family to take care of them, then it puts a burden on the corporation (and the rest of the community) to sustain them (and they would because the person has contributed to the whole and is considered "honored" in spite of their current state of dependence).
-
I would think they'd depend on their pensions (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Funds_Unlimited#Retirement_Fund_Management_and_Financial_Instruments).
-
I think we've all got a quite optimistic view of the EVE world here. Sure, ideally speaking, the Caldari might not care about who you roll around with in private. But even in the so-called "bastion of freedom" that is the Federation in EVE, you have ethnic-based and religious-based violence, particularly in impoverished areas with low levels of education. There is a trend in reality that the less developed a place is, particularly in education, the more prone to demographical instability it is. With that in mind, it's more than likely that among the 'worker class' of the State, they may be more prone to violence against homosexuals and non-Caldari.
I do not think the Caldari State is some meritocrat's utopia where everyone keeps their head down and works dutifully, minding their own business and seemingly incapable of the prejudices we see IRL. It's as erroneous as spinning the Federation as some gleaming citadel of freedom and self-determination, since it has this very broad-sweeping underbelly of questionable moral acts and behaviour that the government doesn't do one bit to dispel. If some Amarr rape their slaves, if some Minmatar outcast their kin, if some Gallente don't care about morality, then similarly, some Caldari might not like homosexuals. It's a grimdark universe (even if it's a bit forced some times); the Caldari won't be exempt from human nature (those who are different are the enemy) just because their government system is radically alien to anything IRL.
The problem, however, is that none of us are Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar. However, some of us ARE gay or lesbian. This makes for very sensitive writing material that I think CCP is very reluctant to expand upon. The best approach is looking at it from two angles; ideally and realistically. Ideally, the Caldari may not care what you do in private. Realistically, many may Caldari do, and make an issue of it. If there's a lesser emphasis on esoteric education amongst the worker classes (all they need to do is learn how to man a factory post, perhaps; why would they need a broad social education? waste of money etc.), then they may suffer from the "narrow mindedness" that we unfortunately see in numerous parts of the world.
Each faction has their instabilities within the lower class. Race/sexuality might be the chosen flavour for the Caldari.
Regarding familes in the State, they apparently do not like children growing up in single parent households (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Enemies_Closer_%28Chronicle%29), and take half-orphans to creches. And those who refuse...
-
Good link Casiella, I had actually never read that page.
Interestingly enough, it seems that retirement planning is pretty common in the State then (as in, it's basically a given that most, if not all, Caldari invest into retirement). This would take the burden off of the family and corporation upon retirement as well as provide some measure of "safety net" in case of a corporate collapse for a person.
It also suggests that the State view on homosexuality has little to do with long-term financial planning.
-
In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.
He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.
My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.
First, I want to clarify - Kaikka Peunato (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=13589) (the Guristas officer who was kicked out of the Caldari Navy) is not the Rabbit. I believe it's been hinted at in a couple places that The Rabbit (Korako Kosakami) and Fatal (Jirai Laitanen) may have been gay if not just incredibly close BFFs, but I've yet to see it stated anywhere as explicitly as in Kaikka's showinfo. (Verone would probably know in more detail, what with his massive hardon for Guristas stuff.)
As far as the State goes, the population issue seems like the most likely reason for a taboo on public homosexuality. Most PF I've read over the years has given off a vibe of "DO YOUR DUTY FOR THE STATE, CITIZEN" at varying levels of intensity; the notion that having one or more children through various means would constitute one of these duties seems reasonable.
I would also point out that in a society where efficiency is a prized trait - literally to the point where "who gives a fuck what it looks like as long as it does its job" seems to be the prevailing attitude among ship designers; just look at the Blackbird and Moa hulls - that even if methods of procreation for same-sex couples are available, they would be regarded as less efficient and not as cost-effective as normal intercourse: it's cheaper to provide incentives for heterosexual procreation than it would be to provide for same-sex couples.
I could also see something similar for the Republic for similar reasons, but then, I don't really dig too deep into Matari RP to have a good enough grasp on that.
For the Gallente, I'm assuming that the average policy is "nobody gives a fuck, do what you want with whoever you want as long as you're not breaking any laws."
The Amarr are where it seems to be a little more tricky. I expect a more widespread "don't ask don't tell" policy on most personal subjects; that is, nobody cares -that- much about who you sleep with or what your kinks are as long as you keep it behind closed doors and out of the public eye - and as long as it's not something illegal.
-
I would think they'd depend on their pensions (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Funds_Unlimited#Retirement_Fund_Management_and_Financial_Instruments).
yes, in the modern age of caldari culture.
However, in centuries past, things may have been quite different.
-
Thanks Morwen, you've pretty much said exactly what I was thinking and trying to relay, just much simpler and clearer than me.
-
/devil's advocate
I agree with your reasoning, but I think it is good to mention that in my humble opinion you are only trying to find rational reasonings where it can also be something very different too. For example, I am not even sure that the Amarr are homophobic because of their religion (Maybe ? I don't remember the chrons). We just assume they are because RL monotheistic religions are against it. But maybe instead it is just about traditions ? Like the Voluval exiles ? Something that does not make any sense but is still here either by ignorance, or sheer stupidity of the masses. Such cases are legion RL too.
-
/devil's advocate
I agree with your reasoning, but I think it is good to mention that in my humble opinion you are only trying to find rational reasonings where it can also be something very different too. For example, I am not even sure that the Amarr are homophobic because of their religion (Maybe ? I don't remember the chrons). We just assume they are because RL monotheistic religions are against it. But maybe instead it is just about traditions ? Like the Voluval exiles ? Something that does not make any sense but is still here either by ignorance, or sheer stupidity of the masses. Such cases are legion RL too.
This is precisely why I expect that the Amarr don't have much, if anything, against it. What would be the justification for it beyond religious reasons? The Amarr are the biggest of the four Empires. To continue in the earlier vein, there's no population issue to speak of, so people pairing off in "unorthodox" ways hardly causes a problem there where such policies might be "needed."
While I could see it perhaps not being too common for people in positions of relative power (Holders, Heirs, etc.) to be in or open about such a relationship, as long as it's not being flaunted or rubbed in people's faces (ie, keep PDA to a minimum; holding hands in public is okay, making out in the town square not so much), I doubt there's actually anything against it. So the local Holder prefers a firm rod of human flesh up his tailpipe instead of the standard-issue Amarrian Stick. As long as it doesn't interfere with his duties as a Holder or disrupt the lives of his underlings, why should it matter to anyone else?
Of course, if it actually became a problem, I'd wager it's safe to assume that in those situations traditional Holder politics would resolve the issue in one way or another. ;)
-
What would be the justification for it beyond religious reasons?
In general, the Amarr don't seem to need anything else.
-
There is no PF references about Amarrians being gender oppressive or sexually bigoted in any way.
-
As for Caldari negative attitude on homosexuality, it might indeed be because of their low population. It may also stem from the need to have a family to take care of you - or something on that direction that was needed in the past ages. If we look at real world history, there have been laws for having children - I think ancienne regimé in France was one: A person would be fined if s/he didn't have children before a given age. It is not completely impossible that the more aggressive Caldari tribes wouldn't have similar practices, but this is of course speculation. After such practice has been ingrained in tradition, the very traditional societies might not like something that is a threat to it - which, on the other hand, would mean that homosexuality might be overlooked as long as you have a traditional family, as well. Which, though, would reserve it as a "privilege" of the rich. There's one more source on this: The Electic Museum chronicle* hints that two execs from different corporations were once lovers.
On Tube Children ancestry: It is exactly that, ancestry. It does not necessarily mean that you are a product of Mad Science(tm), but it does mean that at least one of your ancestors was a Tube Child.
*) http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07 (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07)
-
There is no PF references about Amarrians being gender oppressive or sexually bigoted in any way.
Holy Amarr is based on the Catholic church.
There's also the setting itself. It's a dystopian future that emphasizes what's wrong with various societies and ideals. Unless there's fiction that suggests the Amarrians are cool with free love, I'm going to assume religious based intolerance.
-
There is the chronicle Merely Disassembled (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Merely_Disassembled_(Chronicle)) which references "forbidden love" quite often from an Amarr point of view but it never clearly states what it is. It could be love (at all) from a dedicated monk (as the main character appears to be) or it could be homosexual attraction or a number of other things, but it does point out that the Amarr have some societal restrictions and expectations regarding relationships and love.
-
Well, yeah, but it's based on the Catholic Church 20k years from now. More specifically, a group excommunicated by the Unified Catholic Church and then mutated over millennia. And yes, Merely Disassembled gave me the strong impression that the issue was homosexuality. IIRC that episode is referenced in TBL, but I'd have to dig it up.
Then again, high control groups often survive on enforced conformity - and when you have one pink monkey among the browns, that often leads to exclusion. Mind, I recognize this is pure speculation and could apply to a lot of different groups in EVE.
-
IIRC that episode is referenced in TBL, but I'd have to dig it up.
It is. Heci was the friend of the second protagonist Ralea. The chron takes place while they were visiting the Empire, the second stop on their "vacation".
Edit - That it is left unclear what about the love is "forbidden", and that so many people jump to the assumption that the target of Parlan's affections is also male - when the gender of the person is never stated even once - is quite telling, both of CCP's awareness of the potential issues caused by revealing the important details, and of how polarized and/or focused people's perceptions of religion today.
I'm pretty sure the idea of men and women of the cloth being able to pursue a relationship with someone other than God is a new concept for many branches of Christianity - and it's something I think that has been overshadowed in the eyes of many people because of how big the issue of LGBTQ rights has become.
-
Then again, high control groups often survive on enforced conformity - and when you have one pink monkey among the browns, that often leads to exclusion. Mind, I recognize this is pure speculation and could apply to a lot of different groups in EVE.
The Caldari being primary among them, I imagine.
-
The main thing that irks me about people suggesting that the Amarr faith has anything to do with Christianity is the lack of Christ. By comparison on the time frame, we should be looking how the Catholic Church is related to the religious practice of stone age hunter-gatherers or something. Which, essentially, means that the Amarr faith could be anything.
As for Amarr and homosexuality, naturally in TEA, an example of the corruption at the highest level is Karsoth sexually abusing boys or whatever. However, if we look at what I feel is the main theme in Amarr religion - that is, religion used or abused to control a population - then we should likely ask how sexual habits can be used to control an individual or control a community. Then we might be able to figure out how the Amarr faith considers homosexuality.
-
We have pretty solid confirmation (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1289132&page=1#16) of the issue, thanks to Kyber's sharp eye.
-
The main thing that irks me about people suggesting that the Amarr faith has anything to do with Christianity is the lack of Christ. By comparison on the time frame, we should be looking how the Catholic Church is related to the religious practice of stone age hunter-gatherers or something. Which, essentially, means that the Amarr faith could be anything.
Yes, if CCP was interested in far future science fiction that has nothing to do our current world, they could have done that.
That's not what the setting seems to be though. Caldari megacorporations owe more to Brave New World and 1981 mixed with Jennifer Government than they do to Marooned In Realtime or Saturn's Children.
-
We have pretty solid confirmation (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1289132&page=1#16) of the issue, thanks to Kyber's sharp eye.
That is what I had in mind.
But my point (that has been overlooked) remains. Is it about religion or something else anchored in traditions ? Does it comes from rational thought or irrational beliefs deeply rooted in minds ? Just a look at the Voluval and you can see that the tradition of exiling/mutilating/killing bad marks has no rational basis at all. Maybe it had something looking like it in the past, but now... Could be the same thing here, or for the Caldari. vOv
Not saying that it is, though.
-
Look, we know that homophobia has no rational basis, outside maybe out of survivalism in very small, closed societies. Once you've evolved culturally past that point, religion and tradition (and IMO that's a distinction without a difference) are the only real reasons for it anymore.
-
In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.
He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.
My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.
First, I want to clarify - Kaikka Peunato (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=13589) (the Guristas officer who was kicked out of the Caldari Navy) is not the Rabbit. I believe it's been hinted at in a couple places that The Rabbit (Korako Kosakami) and Fatal (Jirai Laitanen) may have been gay if not just incredibly close BFFs, but I've yet to see it stated anywhere as explicitly as in Kaikka's showinfo. (Verone would probably know in more detail, what with his massive hardon for Guristas stuff.)
As far as the State goes, the population issue seems like the most likely reason for a taboo on public homosexuality. Most PF I've read over the years has given off a vibe of "DO YOUR DUTY FOR THE STATE, CITIZEN" at varying levels of intensity; the notion that having one or more children through various means would constitute one of these duties seems reasonable.
I would also point out that in a society where efficiency is a prized trait - literally to the point where "who gives a fuck what it looks like as long as it does its job" seems to be the prevailing attitude among ship designers; just look at the Blackbird and Moa hulls - that even if methods of procreation for same-sex couples are available, they would be regarded as less efficient and not as cost-effective as normal intercourse: it's cheaper to provide incentives for heterosexual procreation than it would be to provide for same-sex couples.
I could also see something similar for the Republic for similar reasons, but then, I don't really dig too deep into Matari RP to have a good enough grasp on that.
For the Gallente, I'm assuming that the average policy is "nobody gives a fuck, do what you want with whoever you want as long as you're not breaking any laws."
The Amarr are where it seems to be a little more tricky. I expect a more widespread "don't ask don't tell" policy on most personal subjects; that is, nobody cares -that- much about who you sleep with or what your kinks are as long as you keep it behind closed doors and out of the public eye - and as long as it's not something illegal.
I'm fairly sure homosexuality is downright illegal/treason/heresy in the Amarr Empire. Anything that isn't married heterosexual intercourse probably is.
-
That is what I had in mind.
But my point (that has been overlooked) remains. Is it about religion or something else anchored in traditions ? Does it comes from rational thought or irrational beliefs deeply rooted in minds ? Just a look at the Voluval and you can see that the tradition of exiling/mutilating/killing bad marks has no rational basis at all. Maybe it had something looking like it in the past, but now... Could be the same thing here, or for the Caldari. vOv
Not saying that it is, though.
I'm not sure what your point is. If your point is that the Amarr and Caldari likely are basing any anti-gay sentiment on tradition, I'd say people aren't overlooking your point, but that everyone else is assuming that's part of it.
-
I'm fairly sure homosexuality is downright illegal/treason/heresy in the Amarr Empire. Anything that isn't married heterosexual intercourse probably is.
Openly flaunting it? Probably. Quietly keeping it to yourself? The chronicle "Merely Disassembled" seems to suggest a kind of "if you keep it under control, we won't bother you" situation exists.
-
I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.
-
I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.
It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.
-
I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.
It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.
It's a stretch in the sense that the doctrine of a religion ten to twenty thousand years in the future is probably far removed from its original basis.
-
I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.
It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.
I am still thinking on the Caldari homosexuality matter, but on this topic I find it very improbable. All the cultures original forms went through the dark ages for thousands of years, regressing massively/completely as extinction approached. Whatever existed of the original settler's religious teachings I think is long gone in those days, and what we have today is an off-shoot of what the survivors cobbled together. Even that is most likely to have completely changed in upon itself at least once over the course of the many thousand years (the theocratic reforms come to mind).
I do not know if Amarr theologians would reach the same vague 'homosexuality is a sin against God' for the same reasons we have them today. Much like I think about the Caldari currently, anti-homosexuality most likely arose during the dark days when everyone was on the brink. However, as the Amarr recovered and began their mass expansionism, I would think those reasons would drop fairly quickly as the 'chosen people of God' prospered. Contrast with the Caldari, who still possess a significant collective scar from their succession with the Federation.
-
Yah, people though don't even know what roman catholic dogma really is. For example: Celibacy isn't really a dogma, it's church rule and it's kind'a new within Christianity. Originally people of the cloth were free to decide whether they want to marry or live iun celibacy, as it's still the case within Orthodoxy.
Also, we don't know whether this Unified Catholic Church consisted only of Christian churches, or whether it was a merger of all the Abrahamic religions or maybe others as well. Zoroastrianism and Sikhism come to mind, e.g. We don't even know whether the roman catholic church was part of it. It's even thinkable that it wasn't.
Catholic is nowadays oftentimes used synonymously with the roman catholic church, but it merely means 'universal'. Before the roman catholic church started to exist as a seperate entity, the Christian church of the 2nd century AD was already called "Catholic Church" to signify it's univerality and the Nicene creed also speaks of a catholic and apostolic church, long before the formation of roman catholicism. Also the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are "Catholic" in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. Aside the roman catholics especially the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their own denomination is the only original and universal (catholic) church, from which all other churches broke away.
Also, there've been times when and regions in the islamic world, in which pederastic practices have been quite accepted.
So, if one gives it a realistic look and isn't merely going by the stereotype, then well, yes, I think it's a stretch. Especially considering what Vikarion said.
-
To anyone remotely connected with the Catholic Church, "unification" has a particular meaning vis-a-vis the eastern orthodox churches and the Roman church. But as linked above, we can point to part of the Amarrian Church's position on homosexuality without going to the well of Catholic teaching, because we have PF and an explanation from the CCP writer.
-
The problem with us ascribing any kind of nuances to Amarrian faith is the fact that it encompasses all sciences and all different aspects of life.
I think by now science has proven that homosexuality is genetic.
Hence, if the religion has in it that tidbit of information then God would be fallible if it would be against homosexuality since God has created homosexuals.
There is no 'it is a learned habit that can be overcome' that springs from willfully ignoring scientific data.
There is an aspect of the religion which kind of gives you bonus points with God if you know your sexuality and overcome the urges linked to it.
Well, if there is an ascetic aspect to the Amarrian religion.
You do not get bonus points for doing the opposite that your urges tell you though.
That would be a can of worms, going homo for God :D
-
Trying to avoid getting into a very touchy debate (in today's world), I will try to provide a differing perspective.
The problem with the way you've expressed things is that you're basing your post on the assumption that the Amarr Empire has even bothered to conduct scientific research into the nature of homosexuality. The Amarr Empire is a theocracy, whatever the establishment says goes, without question. In this case, if the Theology Council says "homosexuality is a sin," for whatever reason, then that's the end of the story. That's the power of blind zealotry and the corruption that stems from being governed in a theocracy, a lot of evils are done in the name of faith and God.
Let us say, for instance, that research was done regarding homosexuality and its origins, you can bet that if that research threatened the establishment in the Empire, it would be filed away in dark, dark places never to be seen again and everyone who knew anything about it would be silenced.
-
I think by now science has proven that homosexuality is genetic.
Not at all. The best we have are twin studies and those don't prove anything.
Not to mention that homosexuality isn't a biological concept, but a sociological one. A man who's never had sex can be gay. A man who's had sex with other men might be gay, but they could be straight or bisexual as well. When we refer to homosexuality, we're talking about an identity, not strictly a behavior, and identity is cultural.
-
To anyone connected with the Lutheran Church, 'Unification' has a specific meaning in bregard to the Roman Catholic. To anyone living in Germany 'Unification' has a specific meaning, too. The same is true for Europe.
What I try to say is, simply because it has a special meaning to the Roman Catholic vis-a-vis the Orthodoxy churches (by the way not only the Eastern Orthodox, but as well the Oriental Orthodox Churches) it doesn't follow at all that a Unified Catholic Chruch would be the result of a unification of Roman Catholicism and Eastern & Oriental Orthodoxy.
I'd think we know too little about the circumstances of the story "Merely Disassembled" to infer that homosexuality in general isn't allowed and in no way. For example in Ottoman law, pederasty was - in itself- not expressly forbidden and it had a place in societey. None the less sodomy with non-consenting boys was a serious offense and those convicted faced capital punishment. Many people in ancient Greece approved of pederasty in one way or the other, but the huge majority of those that did didn't approve of anal intercourse. At the same time homosexual relationships between two 'bearded men' were oftentimes frowned upon, even while pederasty didn't face the same stigma.
And while woman weren't allowed to speak up about their sexual desires, there's some evidence for it being practiced among woman in the harems and elsewhere. For example in Pakistan woman are expected to marry men: they may, however, have intimate relations with other women as long as their wifely duties are met and their private matters are kept quiet.
So, maybe homosexuality is frowned upon in some parts of the Empire but not so much in others, and maybe it's also a question of the practices that take place. We don't hear a word that the practice had been forbidden by the theology council or in the Empire in general. We also know that the person that the protagonist is enamored with is a an acolyte and it's indicated that people of the cloth live in celibacy within the Empire. So, maybe it's not merely the homosexuality.
Now, given that I'd expect any displays of sexuality and sexual interest in public to be seen as highly inappropriate within the Empire, I'd think the usual way within it to get into a sexual relationship is a - probably arranged - marriage. I'd expect marriage to be something that's between man and woman and that's for the sake of the continuation of dynasties. Someone with homosexual desires would have a pretty hard time to get into contact with like minded people, without going against the rules against public display of his desires.
Also, I personally think that the story "Merely Disassambled" itself is based on the 'catholic priests have it with little boys (acolytes)' stereotype. I don't like that and I think it's a disservice to the Amarrian PF. What's very Amarrian though is the conclusion of the Protagonist. "There is a mindset where you achieve quiet and tranquility not by accepting things the way they are, but accepting that they are the way they are." It really is in place and just seems right for the Amarr, imho.
-
Regarding the chronicle: given Abraxas only said "yes, he's gay" and nothing else on the matter, there's a question worth asking here. Is it that Perdan is gay, is it that he is a gay priest in particular, or is it a local taboo on either of the former?