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[Gottii]

For a Ni-Kunni, this may be a compliment since they like having big families. That said, is it weird that Aldy would find the thought of making Mitara into a prized cow extremely arousing?

Hey Aldy, if you want a prized bull, you know where to find me....

[Syylara/Yaansu]

Same-sex couple fertility options are already available at even our comparatively limited technology level IRL.  If I'd venture a guess, it is that homophobia is one of the prototypical attitudes of an authoritarian (fascist/despotic) regime, so it fits in with the rest of the trope-riddled portrayals of the major powers that has taken shape over the years.

Yes, that should come off sounding as bitter as it did :9.

Would you qualify that statement?

In general, I can see intolerance towards male homosexuality in the Caldari State because it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children. Our current understanding postulates with some certainty that female homosexuals can genetically reproduce with technological aid. The Caldari to my understanding have a great importance on having children, not in adopting or accepting vagabonds/unwanted.

This would mean male homosexuality in particular would be seen as vastly undesirable as it is a reproductive dead end. You're not doing your duty to the Caldari people, essentially.

But just as a female's genetic material can be put into a sperm, a male's can be implanted into an egg (that's my understanding).  So both same-sex pairings can at least produce a zygote.  Naturally males have the additional requirement of securing a surrogate (or an artificial womb, if such a thing were available) in order to bring the fetus to term. 

[Ciarente]

it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children.

It's certainly known to the Caldari: in tubes. With the other tubeys.

[Matariki Rain]

@ Cia - Thanks for the link. Also, "Yuck".

@ A bunch of others - Do we need a guide to passing? The Caldari Closet Book, perhaps? Complete with suggestions for things to think about while doing your reproductive duty.

@ Syllara - It's not that simple. Look up mitochondrial DNA, for one thing. (I'm on the phone with a lousy connection, so no links from me.)

[Ghost Hunter]

But just as a female's genetic material can be put into a sperm, a male's can be implanted into an egg (that's my understanding).  So both same-sex pairings can at least produce a zygote.  Naturally males have the additional requirement of securing a surrogate (or an artificial womb, if such a thing were available) in order to bring the fetus to term. 

it is, physically speaking, not practical/known to us how men can birth children.

It's certainly known to the Caldari: in tubes. With the other tubeys.

Admittedly, I am grasping at straws a fair bit. I am hoping to find some sticking point where Caldari homophobia isn't a straight export of our modern day values...

To my understanding, our modern science has realized / postulated that stem cells can be created into the appropriate sperm/zygote. 20,000 years of FutureTech most likely means this should be a very feasible process, getting over the hurdle of genetic material for reproduction. (Cloning in itself makes massive usage of stem cells if I recall that scientific article) There are two canon non-conventional human breeding techniques used (to my knowledge) : Caldari Tube Children and the Jovian Birthing Tubes/Pods/things.

The exact function of the Caldari Tube Children machines is beyond me, but let us presume they follow very basic principles. Sperm meets zygote, LIGHTNING BOLTS, the tube provides the needs for the growing fetus etcetra. The input for genetic material is from the sperm and zygote. That would appear to me as the problem zone.

To the extent of my knowledge, it should be feasible for homosexuals to artificially create a sperm/zygote from stem cells. One contributes what they natively possess, and the other follows stem cell magicraft and creates the corresponding genetic piece. Women have the choice of involving themselves in the process at this stage, with one or both partners becoming pregnant. Men cannot, so they have to use either surrogates or artificial alternatives (which I think we can safely agree exist).

[spoiler]I imagine there might be negative connotations to being a surrogate for someone who isn't your wife/husband/potato. The connotation would probably affect the surrogate the most (e.g, "oh you're carrying someone else's child and not your own"), and I am not certain how much it would affect the genetic provider(s). Presumably there would be shame in not having a conventional partner to procreate with? Food for thought as an aside.[/spoiler]

What is the social results of providing genetic material to the Tube Child Program, and are there problems with couples (homosexuals or otherwise) specifically using it to create their children? Is the Tube Child Program considered a giant communal DNA reservoir for mass producing people? Is it considered unCaldari to not take pro-active measures to procreate by doing the deed yourself?

That is the farthest I can logically take the Caldari homophobia. As the Caldari detest the homeless/vagabonds/vagrants/etcetra, not Doing The Deed is probably considered extremely lazy/dishonorable/unCaldari, and probably torpedoes careers and job advancement.

[spoiler]Or maybe the Caldari are really asshurt that the Ishukone CEO got rammed by a Nyx[/spoiler]

Edit :

Actually the most useful piece of information that I could use for Crystal Ball II usage would be : what happens when a homosexual pair, after Doing The Deed conventionally, are outted and have children the 'Caldari Way' ?

That could tell a lot.

[Ciarente]

I find it more plausible that the status of homosexuality in the State is an outgrown of specifically Caldari values, perhaps religious, rather than it having roots in the kind of 'explanation' often given for homophobia in our own societies - gender anxiety or reproductive fears. That, to me, is more of an export of our own contemporary values. If attitudes to homosexuality in the State aren't linked to 20th century fascist societies (where homophobia was generally paired with strong emphasis on gendered roles), or to fears of racial extinction, then what does it say about the State? What can we, as RPers, come up with in that gap? 

[Syylara/Yaansu]

@ Syllara - It's not that simple. Look up mitochondrial DNA, for one thing. (I'm on the phone with a lousy connection, so no links from me.)

It is "not simple" in the sense that it is on the bleeding edge of genetic/bio-science here in the real world 21st century.

In a setting where my character's consciousness can transport itself across the cluster into a waiting clone, it might well be "a simple procedure any 'genetics tech' can perform during their first year internship."

But in the overall, we're waaaaay out on a limb here, in general :9.

[Malcolm Khross]

I would like to point out that the "Tube Child" program has been largely "privatized" in the State now, meaning that it's no longer State supported so the notion that homosexual couples can just have tube children is a little bit of a stretch since society as a whole isn't likely to see this as an option.

There's no canonical PF that explains how marriage works in the State, at least none that I could find. If we take into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari however, it's not hard to imagine that it's likely treated in a very contractual, business-like manner with less emphasis on love and emotion and more on corporate/familial gain and status.

Regarding homosexuality, beyond the reasons I provided, I imagine a large part of it is simply "this is what defines a strong Caldari male" and "this is what defines a strong Caldari female" stereotypes are very commonplace in a conformity society like the State. Homosexuality is likely frowned upon as being in opposition (or at least very different) from those expectations. Combined with the issues that have already been explained, the social pressure to "be all that you can be" and the Caldari mindset to conform and excel, you get the picture.

[Ciarente]

I would like to point out that the "Tube Child" program has been largely "privatized" in the State now, meaning that it's no longer State supported so the notion that homosexual couples can just have tube children is a little bit of a stretch since society as a whole isn't likely to see this as an option.

Specifically in reference to the idea that homosexuality is frowned upon because it is non-reproductive sexual behaviour, it is irrelevant whether artificial reproduction is run by the State (a nebulous concept at the best of times given Caldari social organisation) or the megas. My point is that the link between sexual activity and reproduction is broken, for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. And on that topic, what do we know about Caldari familial organisation, or the prevalence of 'traditional' conception and pregnancy? Would the megas leave their future generations' genetic makeup to the lottery of physical and romantic attraction?

There's no canonical PF that explains how marriage works in the State, at least none that I could find. If we take into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari however, it's not hard to imagine that it's likely treated in a very contractual, business-like manner with less emphasis on love and emotion and more on corporate/familial gain and status.

See, I would say that taking into account the society, mindset and character of the Caldari, it's not hard to imagine that sexual relationships are an intensely private affair and completely separate from the public and corporate lives of the individuals concerned, and regarded as such so long as they do not raise any questions of conflict of professional interest. Reproductive matters, on the other hand, it's easy to imagine are a matter of duty to the corporation - both positive duty, to deposit your genetic material in the corporate bank, and negative duty, to not go getting recklessly pregnant to the 'wrong' person, either genetically or corporately.

Regarding homosexuality, beyond the reasons I provided, I imagine a large part of it is simply "this is what defines a strong Caldari male" and "this is what defines a strong Caldari female" stereotypes are very commonplace in a conformity society like the State. Homosexuality is likely frowned upon as being in opposition (or at least very different) from those expectations. Combined with the issues that have already been explained, the social pressure to "be all that you can be" and the Caldari mindset to conform and excel, you get the picture.

I agree that stereotypes are likely to be very commonplace in a society that values conformity. However, in our own history there are examples of societies which viewed male homosexuality as the epitome of male strength, and male heterosexuality as a weakness (wanting to spill your seed in a weak woman? What kind of limp-wrist are you?).  Homosexuality being frowned on as different to the stereotypes prevalent in the State doesn't explain what those stereotypes are, or where they come from.

[Malcolm Khross]

I can't answer any of your questions Ciarente because I'm not a writer of PF, I'm only a player going with what information I have and trying to draw conclusions from it.

As has been pointed it, PF suggests that public homosexuality is a bad thing in the State and it is likely kept private and quiet. All I can do is speculate from there.

[Ciarente]

Oh, I don't expect answers - I just find the questions more interesting (especially for RPing my Caldari characters) than the assumptions.

[Malcolm Khross]

In that case, I don't imagine Caldari having male-to-male homosexuality being a good thing (specifically for the reason you listed) primarily because there's no indication at all that women are seen as "weaker" in Caldari society. There's a strong emphasis in Caldari society that an individual will succeed and excel based entirely on their individual qualifications and merit, regardless of gender, birth, etc.

Obviously this got obfuscated a bit when things became more of an aristocracy before Heth's rise to power (with birth and societal standing dictating a person's "place" instead of individual merit), but that has been being reformed out. Given the military traditions of the Caldari, it seems logical (to me, at least) that sexuality is something pretty much kept on the "down low" and being a very private affair.

I can't help but think that the opposition to public homosexuality is largely a matter of social expectations built upon the idea of family being the smallest measure of community in the State and PF hinting to family honor and position being highly important to Caldari citizens. A disfavorable outlook on what is seen as "non-traditional" families enforces conformity and the State could easily use its favorite weapon (propaganda) to explain how it's the duty of each citizen to contribute to a family, which contributes to a corp, which contributes to the State and largely frowning upon homosexuality as being outside of these expectations.

I think the majority of Caldari simply don't consider it a matter of public affair and when confronted with it will default to the State's conformity expectations and/or use the information to weaken the individual in order to gain their own advancement in the corporate ladder.

/shrug

[Matariki Rain]

A note in passing:

Tube Child

Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. While this program is no longer sponsored by the State, the Tube Children of today were raised in inhospitable, government-run orphanages. Many are fiercely independent, strong individuals loyal to the Caldari State.

I'd taken this to mean that the tube child programme had happened and had then stopped, rather than that it had once been State sponsored (I typoed "sponsired"...) and then went to the corps. I wouldn't die in a ditch over it, but I'd be interested in whether there's other info with bearing on that, since in this thread we seem to be heading in the direction of assuming that the Caldari somewhat-routinely separate sex and reproduction. Clearly they can, and they have: do they still?

I echo the question about family: could we do a PF dive for anything that mentions Caldari families?

And Malcolm, did you read the ending of the chron Cia linked? We're not talking about looking the other way so you can get on with something disapproved of, but walking away while you're crushed, and justifying it because you were, by definition, self-destructive.

Do we have anything on women-loving women in the State? The corp CEO who tended her creepy garden: anything there, either factual or in the threats made to her?

[Katrina Oniseki]

In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.

He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.

My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

In that case, I don't imagine Caldari having male-to-male homosexuality being a good thing (specifically for the reason you listed) primarily because there's no indication at all that women are seen as "weaker" in Caldari society. There's a strong emphasis in Caldari society that an individual will succeed and excel based entirely on their individual qualifications and merit, regardless of gender, birth, etc.

How about "based on their individual qualifications and merit regardless of sexuality?"

I was also thinking how interesting it would be if artificial wombs were in much wider use, hey why have these qualified, productive women taken out of work for maternity leave?  But that opens a whole other can of worms! *quietly sidesteps*

Obviously this got obfuscated a bit when things became more of an aristocracy before Heth's rise to power (with birth and societal standing dictating a person's "place" instead of individual merit), but that has been being reformed out. Given the military traditions of the Caldari, it seems logical (to me, at least) that sexuality is something pretty much kept on the "down low" and being a very private affair.

I can't help but think that the opposition to public homosexuality is largely a matter of social expectations built upon the idea of family being the smallest measure of community in the State and PF hinting to family honor and position being highly important to Caldari citizens. A disfavorable outlook on what is seen as "non-traditional" families enforces conformity and the State could easily use its favorite weapon (propaganda) to explain how it's the duty of each citizen to contribute to a family, which contributes to a corp, which contributes to the State and largely frowning upon homosexuality as being outside of these expectations.

Well, I accept that the question of ability to reproduce is unanswered, but assuming it is an available option, they are still able to "contribute" in the way you describe.

I think the majority of Caldari simply don't consider it a matter of public affair and when confronted with it will default to the State's conformity expectations and/or use the information to weaken the individual in order to gain their own advancement in the corporate ladder.

/shrug

But that again goes back to the point that someone is using prejudice and fear to advance rather than merit.  Not that I'm saying it isn't possible, just one more example of how meritocracy might be the cultural ideal, but still isn't quite as purely practiced as the proponents would like.