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[Lyn Farel]

/devil's advocate

I agree with your reasoning, but I think it is good to mention that in my humble opinion you are only trying to find rational reasonings where it can also be something very different too. For example, I am not even sure that the Amarr are homophobic because of their religion (Maybe ? I don't remember the chrons). We just assume they are because RL monotheistic religions are against it. But maybe instead it is just about traditions ? Like the Voluval exiles ? Something that does not make any sense but is still here either by ignorance, or sheer stupidity of the masses. Such cases are legion RL too.

[Morwen Lagann]

/devil's advocate

I agree with your reasoning, but I think it is good to mention that in my humble opinion you are only trying to find rational reasonings where it can also be something very different too. For example, I am not even sure that the Amarr are homophobic because of their religion (Maybe ? I don't remember the chrons). We just assume they are because RL monotheistic religions are against it. But maybe instead it is just about traditions ? Like the Voluval exiles ? Something that does not make any sense but is still here either by ignorance, or sheer stupidity of the masses. Such cases are legion RL too.

This is precisely why I expect that the Amarr don't have much, if anything, against it. What would be the justification for it beyond religious reasons? The Amarr are the biggest of the four Empires. To continue in the earlier vein, there's no population issue to speak of, so people pairing off in "unorthodox" ways hardly causes a problem there where such policies might be "needed."

While I could see it perhaps not being too common for people in positions of relative power (Holders, Heirs, etc.) to be in or open about such a relationship, as long as it's not being flaunted or rubbed in people's faces (ie, keep PDA to a minimum; holding hands in public is okay, making out in the town square not so much), I doubt there's actually anything against it. So the local Holder prefers a firm rod of human flesh up his tailpipe instead of the standard-issue Amarrian Stick. As long as it doesn't interfere with his duties as a Holder or disrupt the lives of his underlings, why should it matter to anyone else?

Of course, if it actually became a problem, I'd wager it's safe to assume that in those situations traditional Holder politics would resolve the issue in one way or another.

[Makkal]

What would be the justification for it beyond religious reasons?

In general, the Amarr don't seem to need anything else.

[lallara zhuul]

There is no PF references about Amarrians being gender oppressive or sexually bigoted in any way.

[Mithfindel]

As for Caldari negative attitude on homosexuality, it might indeed be because of their low population. It may also stem from the need to have a family to take care of you - or something on that direction that was needed in the past ages. If we look at real world history, there have been laws for having children - I think ancienne regimé in France was one: A person would be fined if s/he didn't have children before a given age. It is not completely impossible that the more aggressive Caldari tribes wouldn't have similar practices, but this is of course speculation. After such practice has been ingrained in tradition, the very traditional societies might not like something that is a threat to it - which, on the other hand, would mean that homosexuality might be overlooked as long as you have a traditional family, as well. Which, though, would reserve it as a "privilege" of the rich. There's one more source on this: The Electic Museum chronicle* hints that two execs from different corporations were once lovers.

On Tube Children ancestry: It is exactly that, ancestry. It does not necessarily mean that you are a product of Mad Science(tm), but it does mean that at least one of your ancestors was a Tube Child.

*) http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=04-06-07

[Makkal]

There is no PF references about Amarrians being gender oppressive or sexually bigoted in any way.

Holy Amarr is based on the Catholic church.

There's also the setting itself. It's a dystopian future that emphasizes what's wrong with various societies and ideals. Unless there's fiction that suggests the Amarrians are cool with free love, I'm going to assume religious based intolerance.

[Malcolm Khross]

There is the chronicle Merely Disassembled which references "forbidden love" quite often from an Amarr point of view but it never clearly states what it is. It could be love (at all) from a dedicated monk (as the main character appears to be) or it could be homosexual attraction or a number of other things, but it does point out that the Amarr have some societal restrictions and expectations regarding relationships and love.

[Casiella]

Well, yeah, but it's based on the Catholic Church 20k years from now. More specifically, a group excommunicated by the Unified Catholic Church and then mutated over millennia.  And yes, Merely Disassembled gave me the strong impression that the issue was homosexuality. IIRC that episode is referenced in TBL, but I'd have to dig it up.

Then again, high control groups often survive on enforced conformity - and when you have one pink monkey among the browns, that often leads to exclusion. Mind, I recognize this is pure speculation and could apply to a lot of different groups in EVE.

[Morwen Lagann]

IIRC that episode is referenced in TBL, but I'd have to dig it up.

It is. Heci was the friend of the second protagonist Ralea. The chron takes place while they were visiting the Empire, the second stop on their "vacation".

Edit - That it is left unclear what about the love is "forbidden", and that so many people jump to the assumption that the target of Parlan's affections is also male - when the gender of the person is never stated even once - is quite telling, both of CCP's awareness of the potential issues caused by revealing the important details, and of how polarized and/or focused people's perceptions of religion today.

I'm pretty sure the idea of men and women of the cloth being able to pursue a relationship with someone other than God is a new concept for many branches of Christianity - and it's something I think that has been overshadowed in the eyes of many people because of how big the issue of LGBTQ rights has become.

[Malcolm Khross]

Then again, high control groups often survive on enforced conformity - and when you have one pink monkey among the browns, that often leads to exclusion. Mind, I recognize this is pure speculation and could apply to a lot of different groups in EVE.

The Caldari being primary among them, I imagine.

[Mithfindel]

The main thing that irks me about people suggesting that the Amarr faith has anything to do with Christianity is the lack of Christ. By comparison on the time frame, we should be looking how the Catholic Church is related to the religious practice of stone age hunter-gatherers or something. Which, essentially, means that the Amarr faith could be anything.

As for Amarr and homosexuality, naturally in TEA, an example of the corruption at the highest level is Karsoth sexually abusing boys or whatever. However, if we look at what I feel is the main theme in Amarr religion - that is, religion used or abused to control a population - then we should likely ask how sexual habits can be used to control an individual or control a community. Then we might be able to figure out how the Amarr faith considers homosexuality.

[Casiella]

We have pretty solid confirmation of the issue, thanks to Kyber's sharp eye.

[Makkal]

The main thing that irks me about people suggesting that the Amarr faith has anything to do with Christianity is the lack of Christ. By comparison on the time frame, we should be looking how the Catholic Church is related to the religious practice of stone age hunter-gatherers or something. Which, essentially, means that the Amarr faith could be anything.

Yes, if CCP was interested in far future science fiction that has nothing to do our current world, they could have done that.

That's not what the setting seems to be though. Caldari megacorporations owe more to Brave New World and 1981 mixed with Jennifer Government than they do to Marooned In Realtime or Saturn's Children.

[Lyn Farel]

We have pretty solid confirmation of the issue, thanks to Kyber's sharp eye.

That is what I had in mind.

But my point (that has been overlooked) remains. Is it about religion or something else anchored in traditions ? Does it comes from rational thought or irrational beliefs deeply rooted in minds ? Just a look at the Voluval and you can see that the tradition of exiling/mutilating/killing bad marks has no rational basis at all. Maybe it had something looking like it in the past, but now... Could be the same thing here, or for the Caldari. vOv

Not saying that it is, though.

[Casiella]

Look, we know that homophobia has no rational basis, outside maybe out of survivalism in very small, closed societies. Once you've evolved culturally past that point, religion and tradition (and IMO that's a distinction without a difference) are the only real reasons for it anymore.