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[Katrina Oniseki]

In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.

He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.

My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.

First, I want to clarify - Kaikka Peunato (the Guristas officer who was kicked out of the Caldari Navy) is not the Rabbit. I believe it's been hinted at in a couple places that The Rabbit (Korako Kosakami) and Fatal (Jirai Laitanen) may have been gay if not just incredibly close BFFs, but I've yet to see it stated anywhere as explicitly as in Kaikka's showinfo. (Verone would probably know in more detail, what with his massive hardon for Guristas stuff.)

As far as the State goes, the population issue seems like the most likely reason for a taboo on public homosexuality. Most PF I've read over the years has given off a vibe of "DO YOUR DUTY FOR THE STATE, CITIZEN" at varying levels of intensity; the notion that having one or more children through various means would constitute one of these duties seems reasonable.

I would also point out that in a society where efficiency is a prized trait - literally to the point where "who gives a fuck what it looks like as long as it does its job" seems to be the prevailing attitude among ship designers; just look at the Blackbird and Moa hulls - that even if methods of procreation for same-sex couples are available, they would be regarded as less efficient and not as cost-effective as normal intercourse: it's cheaper to provide incentives for heterosexual procreation than it would be to provide for same-sex couples.

I could also see something similar for the Republic for similar reasons, but then, I don't really dig too deep into Matari RP to have a good enough grasp on that.

For the Gallente, I'm assuming that the average policy is "nobody gives a fuck, do what you want with whoever you want as long as you're not breaking any laws."

The Amarr are where it seems to be a little more tricky. I expect a more widespread "don't ask don't tell" policy on most personal subjects; that is, nobody cares -that- much about who you sleep with or what your kinks are as long as you keep it behind closed doors and out of the public eye - and as long as it's not something illegal.

I'm fairly sure homosexuality is downright illegal/treason/heresy in the Amarr Empire. Anything that isn't married heterosexual intercourse probably is.

[Makkal]

That is what I had in mind.

But my point (that has been overlooked) remains. Is it about religion or something else anchored in traditions ? Does it comes from rational thought or irrational beliefs deeply rooted in minds ? Just a look at the Voluval and you can see that the tradition of exiling/mutilating/killing bad marks has no rational basis at all. Maybe it had something looking like it in the past, but now... Could be the same thing here, or for the Caldari. vOv

Not saying that it is, though.

I'm not sure what your point is. If your point is that the Amarr and Caldari likely are basing any anti-gay sentiment on tradition, I'd say people aren't overlooking your point, but that everyone else is assuming that's part of it.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I'm fairly sure homosexuality is downright illegal/treason/heresy in the Amarr Empire. Anything that isn't married heterosexual intercourse probably is.

Openly flaunting it? Probably. Quietly keeping it to yourself? The chronicle "Merely Disassembled" seems to suggest a kind of "if you keep it under control, we won't bother you" situation exists.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.

It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.

[Vikarion]

I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.

It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.

It's a stretch in the sense that the doctrine of a religion ten to twenty thousand years in the future is probably far removed from its original basis.

[Ghost Hunter]

I think there's a tendency to ascribe roman catholic dogma to Amarrians. I also think that is a mistake. This is also true for sex outside marriage, homosexuality and the like.

It's not a stretch, really. The settlers of Athra came from an extremist sect that was forced out of the Unified Catholic Church or whatever it was called.

I am still thinking on the Caldari homosexuality matter, but on this topic I find it very improbable. All the cultures original forms went through the dark ages for thousands of years, regressing massively/completely as extinction approached. Whatever existed of the original settler's religious teachings I think is long gone in those days, and what we have today is an off-shoot of what the survivors cobbled together. Even that is most likely to have completely changed in upon itself at least once over the course of the many thousand years (the theocratic reforms come to mind).

I do not know if Amarr theologians would reach the same vague 'homosexuality is a sin against God' for the same reasons we have them today. Much like I think about the Caldari currently, anti-homosexuality most likely arose during the dark days when everyone was on the brink. However, as the Amarr recovered and began their mass expansionism, I would think those reasons would drop fairly quickly as the 'chosen people of God' prospered. Contrast with the Caldari, who still possess a significant collective scar from their succession with the Federation.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Yah, people though don't even know what roman catholic dogma really is. For example: Celibacy isn't really a dogma, it's church rule and it's kind'a new within Christianity. Originally people of the cloth were free to decide whether they want to marry or live iun celibacy, as it's still the case within Orthodoxy.

Also, we don't know whether this Unified Catholic Church consisted only of Christian churches, or whether it was a merger of all the Abrahamic religions or maybe others as well. Zoroastrianism and Sikhism come to mind, e.g. We don't even know whether the roman catholic church was part of it. It's even thinkable that it wasn't.

Catholic is nowadays oftentimes used synonymously with the roman catholic church, but it merely means 'universal'. Before the roman catholic church started to exist as a seperate entity, the Christian church of the 2nd century AD was already called "Catholic Church" to signify it's univerality and the Nicene creed also speaks of a catholic and apostolic church, long before the formation of roman catholicism. Also the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists believe that their churches are "Catholic" in the sense that they are in continuity with the original universal church founded by the Apostles. Aside the roman catholics especially the Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches each maintain that their own denomination is the only original and universal (catholic) church, from which all other churches broke away.

Also, there've been times when and regions in the islamic world, in which pederastic practices have been quite accepted.

So, if one gives it a realistic look and isn't merely going by the stereotype, then well, yes, I think it's a stretch. Especially considering what Vikarion said.

[Casiella]

To anyone remotely connected with the Catholic Church, "unification" has a particular meaning vis-a-vis the eastern orthodox churches and the Roman church. But as linked above, we can point to part of the Amarrian Church's position on homosexuality without going to the well of Catholic teaching, because we have PF and an explanation from the CCP writer.

[lallara zhuul]

The problem with us ascribing any kind of nuances to Amarrian faith is the fact that it encompasses all sciences and all different aspects of life.

I think by now science has proven that homosexuality is genetic.

Hence, if the religion has in it that tidbit of information then God would be fallible if it would be against homosexuality since God has created homosexuals.

There is no 'it is a learned habit that can be overcome' that springs from willfully ignoring scientific data.

There is an aspect of the religion which kind of gives you bonus points with God if you know your sexuality and overcome the urges linked to it.
Well, if there is an ascetic aspect to the Amarrian religion.

You do not get bonus points for doing the opposite that your urges tell you though.

That would be a can of worms, going homo for God

[Malcolm Khross]

Trying to avoid getting into a very touchy debate (in today's world), I will try to provide a differing perspective.

The problem with the way you've expressed things is that you're basing your post on the assumption that the Amarr Empire has even bothered to conduct scientific research into the nature of homosexuality. The Amarr Empire is a theocracy, whatever the establishment says goes, without question. In this case, if the Theology Council says "homosexuality is a sin," for whatever reason, then that's the end of the story. That's the power of blind zealotry and the corruption that stems from being governed in a theocracy, a lot of evils are done in the name of faith and God.

Let us say, for instance, that research was done regarding homosexuality and its origins, you can bet that if that research threatened the establishment in the Empire, it would be filed away in dark, dark places never to be seen again and everyone who knew anything about it would be silenced.

[Makkal]

I think by now science has proven that homosexuality is genetic.

Not at all. The best we have are twin studies and those don't prove anything.

Not to mention that homosexuality isn't a biological concept, but a sociological one. A man who's never had sex can be gay. A man who's had sex with other men might be gay, but they could be straight or bisexual as well. When we refer to homosexuality, we're talking about an identity, not strictly a behavior, and identity is cultural.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

To anyone connected with the Lutheran Church, 'Unification' has a specific meaning in bregard to the Roman Catholic. To anyone living in Germany 'Unification' has a specific meaning, too. The same is true for Europe.

What I try to say is, simply because it has a special meaning to the Roman Catholic vis-a-vis the Orthodoxy churches (by the way not only the Eastern Orthodox, but as well the Oriental Orthodox Churches) it doesn't follow at all that a Unified Catholic Chruch would be the result of a unification of Roman Catholicism and Eastern & Oriental Orthodoxy.

I'd think we know too little about the circumstances of the story "Merely Disassembled" to infer that homosexuality in general isn't allowed and in no way. For example in Ottoman law, pederasty was - in itself- not expressly forbidden and it had a place in societey. None the less sodomy with non-consenting boys was a serious offense and those convicted faced capital punishment. Many people in ancient Greece approved of pederasty in one way or the other, but the huge majority of those that did didn't approve of anal intercourse. At the same time homosexual relationships between two 'bearded men' were oftentimes frowned upon, even while pederasty didn't face the same stigma.
And while woman weren't allowed to speak up about their sexual desires, there's some evidence for it being practiced among woman in the harems and elsewhere. For example in Pakistan woman are expected to marry men: they may, however, have intimate relations with other women as long as their wifely duties are met and their private matters are kept quiet.

So, maybe homosexuality is frowned upon in some parts of the Empire but not so much in others, and maybe it's also a question of the practices that take place. We don't hear a word that the practice had been forbidden by the theology council or in the Empire in general. We also know that the person that the protagonist is enamored with is a an acolyte and it's indicated that people of the cloth live in celibacy within the Empire. So, maybe it's not merely the homosexuality.

Now, given that I'd expect any displays of sexuality and sexual interest in public to be seen as highly inappropriate within the Empire, I'd think the usual way within it to get into a sexual relationship is a - probably arranged - marriage. I'd expect marriage to be something that's between man and woman and that's for the sake of the continuation of dynasties. Someone with homosexual desires would have a pretty hard time to get into contact with like minded people, without going against the rules against public display of his desires.

Also, I personally think that the story "Merely Disassambled" itself is based on the 'catholic priests have it with little boys (acolytes)' stereotype. I don't like that and I think it's a disservice to the Amarrian PF. What's very Amarrian though is the conclusion of the Protagonist. "There is a mindset where you achieve quiet and tranquility not by accepting things the way they are, but accepting that they are the way they are." It really is in place and just seems right for the Amarr, imho.

[Morwen Lagann]

Regarding the chronicle: given Abraxas only said "yes, he's gay" and nothing else on the matter, there's a question worth asking here. Is it that Perdan is gay, is it that he is a gay priest in particular, or is it a local taboo on either of the former?