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[Malcolm Khross]

But that again goes back to the point that someone is using prejudice and fear to advance rather than merit.  Not that I'm saying it isn't possible, just one more example of how meritocracy might be the cultural ideal, but still isn't quite as purely practiced as the proponents would like.

I didn't think this was ever in question, to be honest. Nothing in New Eden happens according to the "ideal." It's always rife with corruption, back-dealing, nuance and shadiness - the State is no exception.

Yes, I read the article Mataraki but I think I've been misunderstood. I'm not saying people simply ignore it - I'm saying that people tend to keep it private and not make a deal out of their sexuality. The fact that The Rabbit made a big deal out of it (supposedly) would cause unwanted ripples in the society which would garner him negative attention REGARDLESS of what the source of those ripples was.

I can't speak for how the State views homosexuality and all of the finer details because I honestly don't know, I can only speculate (which I've said like four times now) and based on those speculations, I get the impression that the Caldari tend to have a very rigid, militant, conformity society that doesn't appreciate someon ruffling the feathers, so to speak. In the case of homosexuality, it's probably one of those "don't ask, don't tell" situations (as has been said in this thread already) and making a public deal out of it is considered a bad idea.

[Ciarente]

@ Mata - I'm not sure when the Tube Child program started, but my impression is that it was back when the State was new and underpopulated, and you can still roll a Tube Child character today, meaning that if it started in the early days of the Caldari-Gallente war it went on for a good long time - long enough to change attitudes, I would argue.

@ Kat - the chron "In the Electric Museum" suggests it goes a good bit deeper than that.

it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.

[Malcolm Khross]

it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.

This is a very legitimate point.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

it's also possible this is a 'top down' prejudice - one strategy often employed by authoritarian regimes in Earth history is to stigmatise a minority to unite the bulk of the population. There may be no underlying reason for Caldari prejudice against homosexuality other than that at some point in the past, homosexuals were the minority chosen to be the 'out group'.

That's what I was alluding to earlier, I was just being too lazy to go into the whole cultural control strategy of defining some "other" entity to ostracize as an "enemy image" to focus opinion against.  So yeah, you're spot on :9.

@Malcolm: we're all speculating and I get the feeling we're all aware we're just speculating, I hope I haven't given the impression of challenging your thoughts as a lot of them are quite worth considering, I merely throwing more stuff at the wall until something sticks (or see if it also sticks because, hey, there's a lot of corps, systems and planets out there).

For example, while it always seems intuitive to take something from a chron, article or news story and extrapolate from it, sometimes I wonder if these things show up in those sources because they were shocking and out of the ordinary.  The Hyasyoda employee being detained by CPD agents a few years back could be read either way...is this normal (even if it is a "new normal") or was this a gross over-reach by a central State entity that violated corporate sovereignty?  I just like to study things from multiple perspectives and yours is appreciated.  If I find it interesting, I pick at it, if I think it's silly I roll my eyes and move on.  In text sometimes it can seem counter-intuitive because if I like it, sometimes it can seem like I'm attacking it :9.

[Lyn Farel]

I think it may go very well with the Caldari society, much like with the Amarrian one. There is the need for more demographics as suggested, but the Caldari culture is also a culture very oriented around the cult of the soldier/warrior. As silly as it may sound, you can look at it RL as well, it is not a coincidence if people use expressions that I personally despise to the highest level but that nevertheless exist, like "you do not have the balls to do it". It refers obviously to the male anatomy and virility, masculinity. It refers to a conservative view of society coming from our very biological roots where the male is a hunter/gatherer and the female a mother for the children. Maybe I am making shortcuts, and probably I am. But emancipation does not sound Caldari at all to me, who are very traditionnalists in their culture (vs their very liberal ways when it comes to science, etc).

And yes, I definitly agree that Caldari and Amarr do think that what happens in private remains in private. It is a strong feature of both cultures, but when it starts to spread in public, well... public outrage. I am not speaking about rationality here, at the contrary, but things in most cultures do not always make a lot of sense.

________


On a quick note, it is already possible these days RL to make two female gametes to produce an (obviously female) child. Japenese scientists did it with female mices. No sperm involved.

[Matariki Rain]

@ Mata - I'm not sure when the Tube Child program started, but my impression is that it was back when the State was new and underpopulated, and you can still roll a Tube Child character today, meaning that if it started in the early days of the Caldari-Gallente war it went on for a good long time - long enough to change attitudes, I would argue.

Hmmm... 'kay, I think it started more recently than that:

Tube Child

Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population.

That suggests it got started only last generation. I got the impression it went for maybe a decade or two, and that we happen to be in the window for that generation growing up. Again, I think there's a slightly more detailed write-up somewhere.

[Ciarente]

Eve wiki says "have for decades utilized artificial procreation ..."

I presume that's the old version of the char gen text which has been ret-conned?

[Louella Dougans]

who looks after the old in Caldari society?

it may stem from concepts of duty and family. Not having children, who would look after you in your old age, may be seen as very selfish, particularly for some socio-economic groups maybe more than others.

[Malcolm Khross]

who looks after the old in Caldari society?

it may stem from concepts of duty and family. Not having children, who would look after you in your old age, may be seen as very selfish, particularly for some socio-economic groups maybe more than others.

This is also a good point. If a retired person has no family to take care of them, then it puts a burden on the corporation (and the rest of the community) to sustain them (and they would because the person has contributed to the whole and is considered "honored" in spite of their current state of dependence).

[Casiella]

I would think they'd depend on their pensions.

[Seriphyn]

I think we've all got a quite optimistic view of the EVE world here. Sure, ideally speaking, the Caldari might not care about who you roll around with in private. But even in the so-called "bastion of freedom" that is the Federation in EVE, you have ethnic-based and religious-based violence, particularly in impoverished areas with low levels of education. There is a trend in reality that the less developed a place is, particularly in education, the more prone to demographical instability it is. With that in mind, it's more than likely that among the 'worker class' of the State, they may be more prone to violence against homosexuals and non-Caldari.

I do not think the Caldari State is some meritocrat's utopia where everyone keeps their head down and works dutifully, minding their own business and seemingly incapable of the prejudices we see IRL. It's as erroneous as spinning the Federation as some gleaming citadel of freedom and self-determination, since it has this very broad-sweeping underbelly of questionable moral acts and behaviour that the government doesn't do one bit to dispel. If some Amarr rape their slaves, if some Minmatar outcast their kin, if some Gallente don't care about morality, then similarly, some Caldari might not like homosexuals. It's a grimdark universe (even if it's a bit forced some times); the Caldari won't be exempt from human nature (those who are different are the enemy) just because their government system is radically alien to anything IRL.

The problem, however, is that none of us are Amarr, Caldari, Gallente, and Minmatar. However, some of us ARE gay or lesbian. This makes for very sensitive writing material that I think CCP is very reluctant to expand upon. The best approach is looking at it from two angles; ideally and realistically. Ideally, the Caldari may not care what you do in private. Realistically, many may Caldari do, and make an issue of it. If there's a lesser emphasis on esoteric education amongst the worker classes (all they need to do is learn how to man a factory post, perhaps; why would they need a broad social education? waste of money etc.), then they may suffer from the "narrow mindedness" that we unfortunately see in numerous parts of the world.

Each faction has their instabilities within the lower class. Race/sexuality might be the chosen flavour for the Caldari.

Regarding familes in the State, they apparently do not like children growing up in single parent households, and take half-orphans to creches. And those who refuse...

[Malcolm Khross]

Good link Casiella, I had actually never read that page.

Interestingly enough, it seems that retirement planning is pretty common in the State then (as in, it's basically a given that most, if not all, Caldari invest into retirement). This would take the burden off of the family and corporation upon retirement as well as provide some measure of "safety net" in case of a corporate collapse for a person.

It also suggests that the State view on homosexuality has little to do with long-term financial planning.

[Morwen Lagann]

In any case, drawing attention to someone's homosexuality is considered extremely bad form among the Caldari. Whether you're calling them out, or they're running around being flamboyant... that's probably what got The Rabbit kicked out of the Caldari Navy - being flamboyant. He clearly says he REVEALED he was gay, and thus was discharged.

He may not have been discharged because he was gay. He may have been discharged because he started putting rainbows and pink ribbons on his uniform. This is an exaggeration of course, but who's to say The Rabbit wasn't doing something that is considered such bad form and insubordinate that they simply couldn't allow him to make the Navy look bad? Who's to say he wasn't sexually harassing other men, or otherwise being inappropriate about his sexuality? Sometimes people just like to rock the boat, and more often than not, doing that in the State can get you in a lot of trouble. It's worth keeping that in mind when you talk about someone who ended up starting an entire pirate organization.

My point is that we shouldn't assume that passage states being gay is a bad thing. We should assume that REVEALING you're gay while serving in the extremely rigid military is a bad thing.

First, I want to clarify - Kaikka Peunato (the Guristas officer who was kicked out of the Caldari Navy) is not the Rabbit. I believe it's been hinted at in a couple places that The Rabbit (Korako Kosakami) and Fatal (Jirai Laitanen) may have been gay if not just incredibly close BFFs, but I've yet to see it stated anywhere as explicitly as in Kaikka's showinfo. (Verone would probably know in more detail, what with his massive hardon for Guristas stuff.)

As far as the State goes, the population issue seems like the most likely reason for a taboo on public homosexuality. Most PF I've read over the years has given off a vibe of "DO YOUR DUTY FOR THE STATE, CITIZEN" at varying levels of intensity; the notion that having one or more children through various means would constitute one of these duties seems reasonable.

I would also point out that in a society where efficiency is a prized trait - literally to the point where "who gives a fuck what it looks like as long as it does its job" seems to be the prevailing attitude among ship designers; just look at the Blackbird and Moa hulls - that even if methods of procreation for same-sex couples are available, they would be regarded as less efficient and not as cost-effective as normal intercourse: it's cheaper to provide incentives for heterosexual procreation than it would be to provide for same-sex couples.

I could also see something similar for the Republic for similar reasons, but then, I don't really dig too deep into Matari RP to have a good enough grasp on that.

For the Gallente, I'm assuming that the average policy is "nobody gives a fuck, do what you want with whoever you want as long as you're not breaking any laws."

The Amarr are where it seems to be a little more tricky. I expect a more widespread "don't ask don't tell" policy on most personal subjects; that is, nobody cares -that- much about who you sleep with or what your kinks are as long as you keep it behind closed doors and out of the public eye - and as long as it's not something illegal.

[Louella Dougans]

I would think they'd depend on their pensions.

yes, in the modern age of caldari culture.

However, in centuries past, things may have been quite different.

[Malcolm Khross]

Thanks Morwen, you've pretty much said exactly what I was thinking and trying to relay, just much simpler and clearer than me.