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[Katrina Oniseki]

There seems to have been a massive upswing in the number of violent duels conducted in person (not ship duels) in recent weeks. It got me thinking on what cultures actually respect the concept of challenging someone else to a duel, and which cultures would laugh at it or grimace at it. I'd like to hear from other players what they think of the cultural opinions of Trial By Combat to resolve personal disputes.

Amarr Empire - Culturally Demanded, Legally Enforced.
Duels are a time honored and traditional method of resolving personal disputes. It may even be illegal to decline a challenge for a duel, or result in severe social loss otherwise. Duels are likely protected by a series of laws and guidelines, and there may be a special regulatory body to oversee them.

Minmatar Tribes - Culturally Acceptable, Legal.
Fist fights are a common method of resolving disputes. Probably legal to engage in a mutually voluntary duel with witnesses, strictly assuming both parties agree to it. May be illegal if one party doesn't agree or is coerced into it? Tribal leaders may act as regulatory bodies.

Pirate Factions - Culturally Endemic, Variable Legality.
Fighting is a de facto way of determining social pecking order, or simply beating the snot out of those who wronged you. Some pirate factions might encourage duels, while others forbid it. Some areas within pirate factions might even be different from each other.

Caldari State - Culturally Tolerated, Illegal.
Fighting to see who is correct is not highly regarded, but is tolerated as a viable method. May result in prosecution by authorities who see duels as civil disturbances or worse. Civire might regard dueling better than Deteis or Achura.

Gallente Federation - Culturally Intolerant, Illegal & Prosecuted.
Violence to resolve disputes is seen as barbaric and uncivilized. Probably illegal in every locality, classified as voluntary assault or whatever. Authorities likely actively seek out or patrol areas where duels are likely to be occurring

This is a basic list, of how I see things, that shows how a culture might treat the demand for a duel by a wronged party. So, while an Amarr would be committing a huge mistake by ignoring a challenge, a Federal might be committing an equally huge mistake by accepting. For the other factions, there are variations of in between.

I'd also like to point out that ship and personal dueling would be regarded mostly the same in my version of the list.

[spoiler]I don't know enough about any of this. I'm making assumptions about all of those categories, and I made the thread to start discussion so I can educate myself and others with the content that results. Please understand this thread is intended for discussion. I'm not trying to write out PF here. I'm just stating how it seems to me at this point in time, and I welcome differing opinions... even if I might not agree with all of them.
[/spoiler]

[Steffanie Saissore]

A part of me would be inclined to think that within the Federation, duels of honor might still exist, a carry-over from Gallente past, but I could also be wrong.  Of the four major nations, they do seem less inclined to settle things through contests of martial skill/prowess.

[lallara zhuul]

There is no indication that the Amarrian society has lost the rule of law during its dark ages, which would be the prerequisite for evolution for a duel tradition based on judicial duels.

There could be some obscure old laws in the judicial system reserved for only the high clergy where one could appoint a defender against a Hand of God if a death sentence should be avoided, but even the Speakers of Truth chron pretty clearly shows that death sentence is rarely used.

They could be used with those within the effect of Godflesh taboo, but I doubt there would ever be any need.

When you have the nobility living for centuries, then having even a slight chance of having a violent death thrust upon you would turn into a certainty, statistically speaking, if dueling would be part of the culture.

I would think that the ruling class would make certain that the rule of law would keep any chance of accidental death out of their lengthened lifetimes.

The threat of slavery and your family losing its Name is enough to keep such silliness in check.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd expect dueling in the Federation a matter of the national governments, not the federal.

I'd expect that in the Empire dueling and it's legality depend to a good degree of ones standing in society. Maybe it's quite okay between nobles, but not so much among commoners. Similarly, I think it'd get quite differentiated in regard to who is challenging whom. A noble challenging a commoner might be seen as picking on someone out of a less than equal liege, so a commoner might have little problem in not accepting the challenge. A commoner would probably, in turn, get laughed at if he'd challenge a noble, under normal circumstances. If the commoner is part of the navy, that might be another thing again, though...

Also, I think that death by duel will be rather rare as an accident, given the medical technology available to Holders.

[Samira Kernher]

Amarr Empire - Culturally Demanded, Legally Enforced.
Duels are a time honored and traditional method of resolving personal disputes. It may even be illegal to decline a challenge for a duel, or result in severe social loss otherwise. Duels are likely protected by a series of laws and guidelines, and there may be a special regulatory body to oversee them.

Anselm says: "I'm sure you have several questions for me, but I'm afraid they'll have to wait. It seems Taphos caught wind of your investigation. I know because he has challenged you to trial by combat. It hasn't been common for years, but Taphos considers himself an old-fashioned true Amarr, and blue laws still allow it. Luckily, this provides the perfect opportunity for us. With the information we've uncovered, namely this cipher, we have enough to bring Taphos on charges. Doing so, however, would cause a huge political uproar, the kind that we frankly don't have the time for. I want you to go out there, meet Taphos, and kill him in combat. We've shut off access to his clones, so he won't be coming back. As you were challenged by a noble you'll suffer no consequences, legal or otherwise. His family line gets to keep their good name, and everyone can then go back to their nice, safe lives, confident that Imperial secrets are still safe." - The Blood-Stained Stars, Mission Arc

Dueling is out of fashion, but blue laws (blue as in blue-blood, nobility) allow it.

[Silas Vitalia]

For Amarr:

I'd only see duels ever happening between people of the same social standing.  People on the bottom do not get to challenge people on the top in any way save speakers of truth sorts of things.

I do however see social elites using 'stand-ins' to fight for them.  The great and noble duke or so and so isn't going to get his hands dirty, but maybe he sends his champion fencing man to fight the other great and noble duke's man (or woman).  Just like the trials for the leadership of the Empire.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Nico pretty much got to what I was going to say first: While Holders may have dueled more commonly in the distant past (and more rarely in current days), duels between all but the highest-tiers of commoner families would probably be seen more as silly fighting than anything else. Slaves probably only get to participate as gladiators for their Holders.



I have to wonder something about the Federation, though: The Jin-Mei still operate a largely insular, also-feudal society. I very much suspect duels would have been a part of Jin-Mei society as well, and likely still are to some degree.

[Karmilla Strife]

Others have hit on my opinion toward duels in Amarr. I think in the Fed, it would depend on the world. As I understand local governments get tremendous leeway with their local laws and customs as long as their citizens are all able to vote. I could see duels being more common on the less developed or advanced worlds.

[Sepherim]

I think the Caldari would do more than frown on duels. None of the societies usually set as example of the State currently use duels in any way (Japan, for example) and it would probably be ineffective as a way to solve issues as the boss would lose one of his workers each time a duel came. Instead, with a centralized zaibatsu, it would be best for the superiors to judge on each situation.

So, I'd say the spot used for the Caldari in the OP should be swept for the Gallente. I can picture circles in the Federation were duels could be used for entertainment or as a "classy" or "old fashioned chic" way of solving conflicts. It would be very small thing, though, probably more of a subcultural thing.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Historically, though, Japan used duels a LOT.

I'm not sure about Finnish culture, but nearby Scandic nations used trial by combat.

[lallara zhuul]

Yeah.

Duels we're used when there was no police force to talk of.

After nations developed so that they had rule of law and the police they became universally illegal IRL.

After a transition period of roughly 200 years they disappeared altogether.

Why would it be any different in New Eden?

[Makkal]

Because EVE has elements of space opera in it.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Duels and judicial duels aren't quite the same thing, Lall.

Dueling as a honor practice, without any judicial component, outlasted judicial dueling by centuries. All you need for that is a gentry class with an overdeveloped sense of honor and dishonor.

The comments about caste for Amarr really matter. If you are a commoner and you insult a holder, a duel is not what you are going to be facing. If you are a holder and insult a commoner, nothing is going to happen. I would expect that duels among holders are rare, why engage in a personal duel when you own a private army? I expect the empire would be pretty worried that duels among holders would escalate to wars pretty quickly. I would expect a "Duel" between holders would involve troop movements, imperial politics, theological inquisitions, and so on.

Where I expect Amarrian duels is among the True Amarr wealthy commoners and the Khanid. There you have your Amarrian gentry equivalent. People whose honor is not secure at all but who have a great deal of military training and/or wealth. When your claim to being above the normal commoner is paper thin, then you have a huge incentive to loudly and aggressively respond to any insults to your status.

[Lyn Farel]

I think the Caldari would do more than frown on duels. None of the societies usually set as example of the State currently use duels in any way (Japan, for example) and it would probably be ineffective as a way to solve issues as the boss would lose one of his workers each time a duel came. Instead, with a centralized zaibatsu, it would be best for the superiors to judge on each situation.

So, I'd say the spot used for the Caldari in the OP should be swept for the Gallente. I can picture circles in the Federation were duels could be used for entertainment or as a "classy" or "old fashioned chic" way of solving conflicts. It would be very small thing, though, probably more of a subcultural thing.

From what I recall the bushi culture used to put a very high value on duels, where they were considered to be a divine way of dealing with justice. It was a good way to settle disputes between two samurai or more (but never between differing castes, the higher was systematically considered more worthy, and so, the lesser was always guilty as he couldn't put into question the wisdom of the higher caste, even if in his right : they just had to suck it up). But like in some western duelling systems, it was forbidden unless specifically allowed by a daimyo.

Of course, they rarely went to death, it was mostly first blood/hit. Cf various classics like Eiji Yoshikawa's works on Musashi.

However I don't think the whole celestial order deal of the japanese lore and Shinto really fit to the Caldari in general, more to the Ashura or the Amarr tbh. It is pretty contradictory with the caldari system without any castes and valuing meritocracy, which is totally alien to the japanese bushido.

The standard Caldari (not Ashura) can be inspired from modern Japan, probably, but not so much from previous eras I think. Too many contradictory facets. It probably starts at the Meiji Era (past Edo, Heian and the likes).

[Anslol]

A part of me would be inclined to think that within the Federation, duels of honor might still exist, a carry-over from Gallente past, but I could also be wrong.  Of the four major nations, they do seem less inclined to settle things through contests of martial skill/prowess.

I kind of agree with Steff. Dueling is probably out of date but still happens. It might just be used as a form of sparring or training to hone skills and such.