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[Pieter Tuulinen]

White racially, maybe, but not culturally, at least in my opinion.

The Caldari sacrifice individual fulfilment for the greater good. That is so far and away from Western Culture that it would render the Caldari culture baffling to most of the West. Read the Demographics again - this isn't the lip service to cooperative goals and ideals that we practice at home, it's a very real commitment, to the point where openly displaying excessive wealth is seen as ostentatious and a large amount of policing in the State is done by peer norming.

[Aria Jenneth]

I was kind of hoping it wasn't the case, but I suppose I'll have to adjust my roleplay as well around the fact that the Achur culture is probably indominant and not very much respected even on their own homeworld.

Don't take it too hard. Stitcher's open-mindedness now makes him flat-out jaalan.

This throws another couple of piquant twists into Aria's background-- probably Gwen's, too. Also, check it out: we get to represent a minor cultural group distinguished largely by being, proportionally, overwhelmingly overrepresented as a percentage of Caldari capsuleers. And we took shameless advantage of the State to get here.

Bahh - I shouldn't go off topic, yet... Call it blending, but I confess it bothers me a bit OOCly that all eastern or far eastern inspired cultures in EVE are essentially submissive and in decline towards ones that are, predominantly, European. The Caldari are a mild exception, but their Japanese influence seems to be increasingly downplayed, and they're... Well, white, on top of that, to be frank.

Eh-- CCP named its only ethnicity of obvious African descent the "Brutor," a bit of flagrant race fail that I wish they would find some way to correct. I can think of ways to defend them on this, but I'm not sure I want to bother; it's pretty clear that they were thinking in a typically Eurocentric manner when they designed the core bloodlines.

Of course, in their defense (I guess I'll bother a little), they don't give any whiff of suggesting that this is the way it should be. They even made the game's most frequent and obvious racists a bunch of (frequently bald) white guys. Then again, the darker skinned folks only managed their revolt with the help of another group of white folks ... or maybe veinous folks, if you count the Jove.

Also, you may wish to consider the implications of large numbers of Achur infomorphs for the Caldari State before you write our culture off as in decline (at least irreversibly). This seems to have the makings of a resurgence, donchathink?

[Vikarion]

I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.

Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.

[Mithfindel]

White racially, maybe, but not culturally, at least in my opinion.

The Caldari sacrifice individual fulfilment for the greater good. That is so far and away from Western Culture that it would render the Caldari culture baffling to most of the West. Read the Demographics again - this isn't the lip service to cooperative goals and ideals that we practice at home, it's a very real commitment, to the point where openly displaying excessive wealth is seen as ostentatious and a large amount of policing in the State is done by peer norming.

There are "western" examples, with the specific one I linked to picked for rather obvious reasons. Also, talking about the Finnish voluntary community work, "the voluntary nature might be imaginary due to social pressure".

On non-European bloodlines, CCP just probably didn't even think about it, Iceland is pretty isolated. Example of cultural differences: Russians use "neger" (negro) to refer to black Africans. Exchange students who come to Finland (for example the university I work at) quickly notice that across the border, that's a no-no word used only by racists. Go forty years - or perhaps less - back, and it didn't have any negative meanings here, either. This makes some old TV commercials look hilariously racist by modern terms.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Don't take it too hard. Stitcher's open-mindedness now makes him flat-out jaalan.

This throws another couple of piquant twists into Aria's background-- probably Gwen's, too. Also, check it out: we get to represent a minor cultural group distinguished largely by being, proportionally, overwhelmingly overrepresented as a percentage of Caldari capsuleers. And we took shameless advantage of the State to get here.

That'd be a little closer to the truth if there were more people roleplaying as "Rural" Achur instead of mostly Caldari ones. Honestly, if you hadn't been pretty much for the first person to engage me in serious roleplay after I started, I might well have ended up pushing the same angle. (Due to lack of knowing better, I should clarify.)

Still, there's a certain something to be said for being one of the few with the desire and fortitude to hold onto the original culture, and the interesting conflicts that might grow out of that. After all, being part of a fairly weak and marginalized group can make for quite interesting roleplay, despite what grievances I might have OOCly for the fact it was written that way.

Eh-- CCP named its only ethnicity of obvious African descent the "Brutor," a bit of flagrant race fail that I wish they would find some way to correct. I can think of ways to defend them on this, but I'm not sure I want to bother; it's pretty clear that they were thinking in a typically Eurocentric manner when they designed the core bloodlines.

Amusing story, here. I tried to get a friend to play EVE online a bit after I started myself back in the summer, and after a few minutes of toying around with the character creator, she turned to me and said, "So... The only black people in the universe are tribal warriors called BRUTE-ors? ...Really? Why are all the leading races white? Was this game made by Nazis?"

Yeeeeaaah. She didn't end up playing. If they're going to retcon anything severe in the future, it should be that name.

Of course, in their defense (I guess I'll bother a little), they don't give any whiff of suggesting that this is the way it should be. They even made the game's most frequent and obvious racists a bunch of (frequently bald) white guys. Then again, the darker skinned folks only managed their revolt with the help of another group of white folks.

That's really what I meant. Good or bad, most of the notable stuff in the universe is both done and about Caucasians. I wouldn't, I should clarify, at all suggest that CCP is actively racist in any sense of the word. They just, probably without even thinking about it much, constructed a very "eurocentric" world, as you put it. Hopefully this'll shift with time. I know it already has, somewhat.

... or maybe veinous folks, if you count the Jove.

Funny you should mention that - Gwen, ICly, actually has a pet theory that Achura and the Jove are schisms from the same race. Which would provide a very interesting counterexample to my peeve, in a way. Though she rarely says it outloud, due to the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist.

I'll admit OOCly that it's unlikely, but there is some evidence to support it - Both highly introspective cultures in which the line between science and faith is thin (The SoCT idea of "Universal Truth" sounds like something an Achur would come up with), both incredibly prone to reclusiveness, both incredibly obsessed with gaining understanding in all it's forms... And both apparantly, judging by the Jovian ship names, with the penchant for stories about vengeful ghosts. (See the Achura section of the "Death" article.)

Not to mention that Saisio isn't too far off Jovian space.

Also, you may wish to consider the implications of large numbers of Achur infomorphs for the Caldari State before you write our culture off as in decline (at least irreversibly). This seems to have the makings of a resurgence, donchathink?

...Hmm. That's an interesting idea. Especially considering the implications of CCPs general intent with the storyline to make Capsuleers carry much more weight in the state of the Empires (or what's left of them) in the future. Could  be something worth approaching in roleplay at some point or another - Maybe some sort of venture or corp based around preserving the culture offworld.

Something to think about.

I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.

Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

One thing that I learned from roleplaying my Alliance character on WoW for several years was that, in MMO roleplay, you have to get used to rolling with the punches, even when it seems like a quite literal beatdown. Otherwise it's just not worth the bother, since you'll always be completely at the mercy of an often inexperienced, likely underpaid, and constantly shifting writing team.

It's the price you pay for playing in a really long-term setting with a huge pool of people. Build your sandcastles away from the established lore, accept the fact that they'll sometimes get knocked down, or just... Don't, at all, I think.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Hey lol, I am a Rural Achur.
I'm with Aria's (later) interpretation of how the culture is broken down. Pretty much explains my argument in IGS. Now that being said I also would say that whatever went down in the past it is likely that by this point there is little constant strife. Souchek's anger towards the Caldari is based less on their mutual history and more on recent events in his life that directly effected him. Also it is less that he advocates succesion and more a sort of equal rights to power.
As for the whole Caldari are evil thing, I think that once all the :TonyG: is pared away your still going to need some darkness. This seems an actual logical place for it.

[Shiori]

I was very pleased to discover the mentioned EVElopedia article while fleshing out Shiori a bit. It's quite good worldbuilding. I assumed it was older and more common knowledge, or I would've kicked up more of a fuss about it.

I very much like the notion of "rural" Achura becoming capsuleers en masse. It makes sense; even without the transhumanism and unity-with-everyghing angles, if your culture is very much oriented towards the stars, are you going to let little things like brain lock, clone death and invasive surgical procedures get in your way if you're told you can actually reach them?

Who's up for starting a native-Achura channel for us to be snooty about other, lesser capsuleers in?

[Utsukushi Shi]

I am in so many channels lol, but yeah start one up and I will jump in it for sure.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Just remembered this tidbit also.

 "Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State."

From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality

[Aria Jenneth]

I used to see the Achurans as sort of the Caldari's Pet the Dog moment, a "well, they can't be all bad, after all, the Achurans preferred them to the Federation and they've respected Achuran culture", but that's been quite obviously ret-conned.

Don't worry about causing my character any problems, Gwen - at this point, I can't say that I really give a damn about Eve's story or RP.

Pity. I rather liked roleplaying with you, and this article actually makes Achur RP abundantly more interesting. It screws with our quasi-canon, but that was always kind of a ramshackle structure of speculation. Further, this article does a fine job of threading the needle of what we DID have; there was always kind of a, "Wait, what? The Achura have leaders who aren't corporate?" whenever relations with the Achura as a group were mentioned.

The question of any given culture being "bad" or not doesn't really interest me-- after all, our own cultural outlook is very Gallente-ish, so we're bound to look at things largely from their (our own) perspective. Looking at Eve's worldbuilding as an experiment in "what if" rather than a grand melodrama strikes me as being what separates the core vision from Tony G. Passing judgment detracts from the exercise of putting ourselves in others' shoes.

Just remembered this tidbit also.

 "Wayism is not an evangelical religion, and most Caldari take it as simply a fact of the universe, not a truth to be spread. The general attitude of most Caldari to nonbelievers is that it is their right to believe in whatever god or gods they like, as Wayism is very much centered on the Caldari people themselves anyway. The Achura, and to a lesser extent the Intaki, are considered to have a different understanding of the same realities, which is one of the reasons that the Caldari were eager to incorporate both into the State."

From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality

Hm. On the face of it, there's some PF dissonance there. But ...

Okay. The Caldari don't seem to take the Way as something to evangelize-- but their culture (of which the Way is an aspect) is very strict about maintaining its own integrity. It may be that Intaki and Achura who conform in all other respects to the Caldari way of life are permitted to practice their faiths in private (a privilege, or oversight, otherwise reserved to the Khanid). There was also that weird bit with CCP hanging a lampshade on "the star" (the really bright one that appeared on every star field in New Eden at once and then went "poof" a year or so later), where there were obvious practicing Achura literally peddling lessons in communing with the star as a method of improving your career prospects.

So, here's an option. (1) Achura wishing to join State society must set aside their native culture and adopt the Caldari way of life both publicly and privately. This precludes maintaining old Achur roles, so the Achur culture is still relegated to the sticks. (2) However, the Achur and Intaki faiths are taken as "alternate versions" of the Way of the Winds; difference in this area is not seen as significant (or maybe even as actual difference), except by extremists. (3) The "mostly" in the note that the Elder Visionaries "mostly control the monasteries" may indicate that urban Achura still pay them some small amount of attention for the sake of refining their own understanding of their faith.

Conformity: maintained, within allowable limits.

Diversity of belief: allowed for, within allowable limits (other perspectives are okay so long as everybody's looking at the same object).

Cultural Achura: still marginalized outsiders, but that's maybe slightly less painful in this scenario since the Caldari recognize them as close relations in terms of faith.

[Vikarion]

It's the price you pay for playing in a really long-term setting with a huge pool of people. Build your sandcastles away from the established lore, accept the fact that they'll sometimes get knocked down, or just... Don't, at all, I think.

I think that the writing for WoW might be considered primae facie evidence that one shouldn't bother. 

Anyway, it's unwise to build sandcastles on a beach frequented by an ugly fat kid whose goal in life is the demolition of all sandcastles built in the style you like.

[Hamish Grayson]

* However, they are also deeply spiritual people and much less materialistic than the Caldari.

The new demographics info suggests that most Caldari spend their extra cash on gambling not bobbles.   Civre and Deties live a very spartan life, and are very un-materialistic.   One should also not forget Wayism, the Maker, the Starsmith* etc. which suggest a deep vein of spirituality within them.

*The Starsmith may be another name for The Maker, and explain the heavy use of steel, stars and steel stars in Caldari iconography.

Also something to consider; Given the domination of key executive positions by Achur within SuVee does SuVee's Practical lean influence the Achur culture or has the Achur culture influenced SuVee's Practial lean 

[Aria Jenneth]

Hamish: true. I made that statement based on the old "thriving consumer culture" language in the Caldari racial desc, and before I read the demographics article.

[Aria Jenneth]

On further consideration, the article on Wayism seems to cast the faith as (1) not evangelical but (2) core to Caldari culture. Atheists are tolerated, but usually go through the motions anyway. Considering that the Achura and Intaki both form client communities within the State, it seems likely that they are considered more than welcome to continue practicing their faiths within those communities, but not outside.

Eeeeeh. This bit be ambiguous, folks.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I think that the writing for WoW might be considered primae facie evidence that one shouldn't bother. 

Anyway, it's unwise to build sandcastles on a beach frequented by an ugly fat kid whose goal in life is the demolition of all sandcastles built in the style you like.

Hey now - I'm not ashamed of getting into WoW's story when that game came out and I was still a dumb teen. And as bad as it might've been, they made it a hell of a lot worse as time went on. Especially for the half of the population that the developers outwardly called (and I believe I quote the lead writer here) "losers" by virtue of their faction.

My point is, if one wants to roleplay a member of an established group in-setting that maintains those connections, regardless of the size or nature of said group, it pays to adopt a somewhat less invested attitude. As developers are rather prone to force heavy, sometimes-unpleasant changes upon you at a whim.

Also something to consider; Given the domination of key executive positions by Achur within SuVee does SuVee's Practical lean influence the Achur culture or has the Achur culture influenced SuVee's Practial lean 

Ahh - This I can clarify. It's actually established in the SuVee article. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sukuuvestaa_Corporation)

Since resettling in the Achura home system of Saisio after the evacuation of Caldari Prime, the corporation has become the sentimental favorite of the Achura population for both employment and purchasing decisions. Many of the corporation's high level positions are filled by Achura, and images from Achura culture are often used for corporate products. However, corporate philosophy is still dominated by SuVee traditions that date back to its origins on Caldari Prime, not Achura culture.

Not our fault!

About Caldari "Materialism", does the stuff about gambling really suggest that as a universal truth? I find it a bit odd that a society so based around, when you get past all the honor/loyalty/unity stuff, making lots of money would have no decadance on the fringes whatsoever.