Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

blueprints are required for manufacture of everything from shuttles to dreadnoughts because of strict anti-copyright infringement laws enforced by the SCC.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10

Author Topic: Caldari / Achur relations  (Read 15987 times)

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Caldari / Achur relations
« on: 17 May 2013, 12:30 »

Okay, so ... this is a very good IGS topic, right here.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=236349&p=2

It is, however, also one running on a bare minimum of PF.

This sort of gray zone is an area where CCP has been known to just adopt player-created canon wholesale, so we should be careful how we approach it.

A few initial thoughts:

* We have little to no indication that the Achura are or have historically been a repressed minority. They joined the State voluntarily, apparently on account of largely shared values.

* Though they joined the Caldari, they were part of the Federation first-- so they knew the Gallente, and chose to side with the Caldari. This bespeaks a deeply conservative culture suspicious of individualism.

* However, they are also deeply spiritual people and much less materialistic than the Caldari. I've explained this in my own (naturally subject to change) quasi-canon as being a result of Saisio's tendency to "break things." The Caldari came of age on a snowball; the Achura came of age amid tectonic instability and fierce storms, rendering property transient. What an Achur knows in more important than what an Achur owns.

* In spite of which, their homeworld appears to be in SuVee's corporate fiefdom. SuVee is Practical, meaning more materialistic than the average mega, not less. This is not a recipe for peace and harmony unless SuVee is being very careful in its dealings with the Achura.

Gwen's interpretation, that SuVee's initial involvement on the Achur homeworld was a wee bit ham-fisted, would make a certain amount of sense canonically (and would mesh well with Aria's general opposition to SuVee's continued involvement with her homeworld-- the Achura, like the Caldari, have long memories). There are hints of tension between the Achura and Caldari, largely surrounding the (retconned?) Creator's Rod and the White Song. More specific accounts are lacking, but Gwen's version of events is plausible.

An interesting possibility (since Achur White Songbirds are apparently a "politically-correct" thing to have for lunch on Jita 4-4) is that the real threat to the White Song was habitat destruction-- megacorporate interests going, "Hm. Nice forest, but, nicer minerals underneath, so...." and the Achura going, "Wait, what? Sacred animal habitat! Keep your stinking materialistic hands OFF!" Then somebody says, "Hey, wait. We want you to leave White Song habitat alone, but we don't have a problem with people eating them so long as their population doesn't plummet. Haven't you Caldari guys been looking for an answer to the hanging long-limb?"

SuVee goes, "Ooo, profit-- and better relations with the natives. Eh, probably for the best." And a new Caldari delicacy is born.

Moving on:

* Exactly how high up the corporate totem pole Achura climb is a little ambiguous. It's also a little ambiguous how many of them want to; their starting Charisma is rock-bottom and most of the PF suggests that they admire teachers and scientists more than businesspeople.

* Exactly how well Achur underlings are treated by megacorporate superiors is also a little ambiguous. This was a big problem among the ethnic Caldari before Heth's rise, but we don't get much sense that the Achura were really taking sides there. Possibly, SuVee (and any other employers) has worked out that the Achura tend not to care too much about the pay as long as they get to go home to their families at night, the company treads lightly on intellectual property issues (I wouldn't put it past them to basically own the whole intellectual ferment of Saisio, permitting Achur scientists to publish their work freely among their own-- the whole planet's scientific dialog is all in-house), and nobody goes stomping on their religious practices.

* Actually, that's one important note: I (anti-corporate so-and-so that I am) tend to regard corporate entities OOC as psychopaths at worst, smart psychopaths at best. This does not, however, mean that even a truly ruthless corporation might not notice the value of keeping a society of scholars and scientists happy.

The Achura are like a little conclave of academia tucked in the middle of a massive corporate sea-- they're a goose that lays golden eggs. Give them research grants, high-tech toys, room to breathe, enough money to live comfortably on, and just generally stay out of their lives, and they'll occasionally hand you miracles. Even for the Practicals, that's got to sound like a pretty good deal.

The question, if that's an accurate read, is how long it took them to notice. It does seem likely that SuVee, when it first turned up, barely knew who the Achura were-- hardly anybody did. They kept to themselves. Likely, SuVee was sharpening up its cutlery and tying a napkin around its neck, and it probably took a few bites before noticing that the meal before it was substantially more interesting than the average ball of resources.

* One more thing to consider before I bring my little bit of brain-spillage to a close here: religion is ubiquitous on Achura. It is pervasive. Offworld, however, it is rare-- I know of maybe four practicing Achura in game right now, and one of those is a convert (if Vikarion is still practicing). There's got to be some reason for this, and the best I can think of right now is that religion on Achura is very much a community activity. Most Achura off-world feel cut off from their faith, and (being more than a little conformist) tend to adopt the beliefs of those around them, whether those be the Way of the Winds or a flatly secular outlook.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 12:54 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #1 on: 17 May 2013, 13:31 »

  "Influenced by Sukuuvestaa, the Achura decided to join the Caldari in their secession as a client state. Their pre-industrial Achura Empire had been discovered by SuVee during the secret colonization many decades prior, and was uprooted and replaced by minority Caldari rule. This mostly affected major population centers, which were modernized to become full cities according to the Caldari standard. The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted[4]."

  "The rise of Tibus Heth and the Caldari Providence Directorate in YC110 would put emphasis on ethnic identity regardless of cultural compliance, the two being defined as synonymous with one another by the Provists. Hundreds of thousands of Federation expatriates were quarantined and unlawfully incarcerated/expulsed[6], while full State citizens of Gallente origin found themselves at the violent end of angry mobs[7]. Even Achura who were fully established as corporate citizens were targeted by radicals due to their distinct ethnic appearance, although this has since subsided following corporate action."

     -from the Demographics of the Caldari State.


  Thats what I have been going off of, I suspect Gwen as well.
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #2 on: 17 May 2013, 13:36 »

Couple other choice bits of possible relevance.

  "The remaining 1-5% of the registered State population is primarily made up of the Achura, with a handful of Intaki and Khanid. They are expected to either shed all previous hallmarks of their identity (both publically and privately) and adapt to the Caldari way, or keep to themselves in small client communities isolated from the wider State."

  "As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing. However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture."

Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #3 on: 17 May 2013, 14:09 »

Excellent. Source on those last two?

Also, can we get a link to the Demographics article? I haven't read it, and I suspect many of us (Vikarion included) have not.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 14:12 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #4 on: 17 May 2013, 14:11 »

Ah sorry, they are from the same article just further down. To be fair to any older RP dudes I think that article is pretty new, some of the big content dump that happened when the new lore/live-event guys started doing their thing. I remember being so happy when I read it since it was pretty much the direction I was already going with Souch lol.

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 14:14 by Souchek Lehman »
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #5 on: 17 May 2013, 14:45 »

Hm. Well, that's going to require a little RP-tinkering. Several bits of old RP effectively retconned, etc.-- that's okay.

Okay. So-- no Gallente Federation membership; first contact was with SuVee (and what a lovely group to establish contact with). Achura is considered a client nation; individual Achura are NOT automatically granted State citizenship.

By implication, much of rural Achura (I kind of wish CCP would give us an easier time distinguishing between the people and the planet) is likely still pre-industrial. Aria's knives are probably not so out of date as all that.

Hmm ... the Elder Visionaries. It's curious-- the Achur religion is described elsewhere as not actually very organized. Perhaps the Visionaries are a sort of conclave of monastic sect leaders? Regardless, they don't seem to be all that bothered about SuVee's influence, perhaps because SuVee hasn't actually gone trying to off the Achur culture and faith. Still, Aria's belief that the State is a protective "shell" around her home culture begins to seem a bit more like drinking the proverbial Kool-Aid.
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #6 on: 17 May 2013, 15:19 »

I am inclined to believe that Souch is being overly cynical and the others overly optimistic. That the historical truth lies somewhere between the two. When thinking about backstory I pictured early Achur being composed largely of city-states, each with their own monastry connected to it. An annoying difficulty is having no idea where the Achur were in their development when they met the Caldari. Little technological development so some kind of late Renaissance? 20th century early space age? No idea lol.
How the whole thing went down would be interesting as well. A joyous meeting of long lost space bros that went a little one-sided when corporate interests got involved? Did the Elder Visionaries sell their people out to preserve their religious beliefs in the face of an impossible foe from space? Was there in fact no existent world government at the time and the EVs are a Caldari creation or a reaction to meeting them? Again, no idea lol.
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #7 on: 17 May 2013, 16:26 »

Well, the article does indicate that the Caldari supplanted the existing Achur empire and reshaped the cities in their own image. (Now that's the SuVee I know and loathe.) This implies the existence of, likely, a global empire, possibly rivaling the Raata in its grandeur ...

... except that the Achura don't seem to mourn it much. Sic transit gloria mundi. Now if somebody can just translate that into Chinese..
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #8 on: 17 May 2013, 17:06 »

Good point, forgot about that.
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Gwen Ikiryo

  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #9 on: 17 May 2013, 17:26 »

I was going to cite my sources for Gwen's arguement here, but Souchek seems to have mostly beaten me to it. Not that I think everything coming out of her mouth is pure PF - She's highlighting the worst aspects of the Caldari's approach to the Achur and playing them up to the extreme for the sake of the arguement, and because her own negative personal experience casts them in such a light.

Regarding the Elder Visionaries, I always assumed they were sort of a consulate of spiritual leaders of various forms in a rather disoragnized structure. Heads of prominent monastaries, philosophers, respected regional figures... Wisdom and insight seem to be the qualities the Achur value the most highly - It stands to reason their own little meritocracy (And I assume it's a meritocracy, I'd be baffled that they'd associate with the State if they elect their leaders democratically) would be based on these attributes rather then more Caldari ones like loyalty, efficiency, diligence, etc.

My own little bit of fanon that I wouldn't dare incorporate into roleplay, since it has no basis, is that they were sort of an advisory group to the ancient Imperial Family that would handle more trivial aspects of administration delegated to them, before SuVee came and knocked the proverbial head off the serpent and planted their own... And they continue to serve that role, in a sense, with the autonomy SuVee now grants them.

And about the "Achura Empire", this article provides a little (And by little, I mean literally a tiny bit) more information that I have been going off from. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Achuran_songbird

There's more I want to say, but I'm a bit preoccupied, so I'll come back to this topic later.

Sic transit gloria mundi. Now if somebody can just translate that into Chinese..

Rì luò xī shān. Roughly: "The sun falls beyond the western hills." An era has come to it's natural end, as all things must.

...What? I've done a lot of roleplay in eastern settings.
« Last Edit: 17 May 2013, 17:41 by Gwen Ikiryo »
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #10 on: 17 May 2013, 17:30 »

Interesting, I seem to remember reading a discussion on achur history somewhere and there was an item description that had some interesting PF. Trying to find it but google-fu is failing me lol.
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Gwen Ikiryo

  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #11 on: 17 May 2013, 17:35 »

Whoops. Meant to modify my post and quoted it instead!
Logged

K_Wiroshoda

  • Clonejack
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #12 on: 17 May 2013, 18:11 »

I was wondering if it was good or bad form to simply link the Demographics of the Caldari State article on the IGS thread when asked to provide sources. I am of two minds about it, mostly because of the perception of trying to "win" something In-Character that is not necessarily an In-Character source.

Also, I thought the Achurans were a Japanese derivative like the Caldari? Mandarin Chinese nomenclature seemed in the realm of the Jin-Mei (Mei-ha, Tei-Su, Hulang, Sang Do, Saan Go, Jing Ko, etc.)
Logged

Gwen Ikiryo

  • Omelette
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 316
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #13 on: 17 May 2013, 18:39 »

I was wondering if it was good or bad form to simply link the Demographics of the Caldari State article on the IGS thread when asked to provide sources. I am of two minds about it, mostly because of the perception of trying to "win" something In-Character that is not necessarily an In-Character source.

Also, I thought the Achurans were a Japanese derivative like the Caldari? Mandarin Chinese nomenclature seemed in the realm of the Jin-Mei (Mei-ha, Tei-Su, Hulang, Sang Do, Saan Go, Jing Ko, etc.)

Achura culture seems to have a lot more in common with that of Ancient China/Tibet then of Japan - Their defining quality has always been established to be their spiritualism and their lack of great interest in material affairs and the outside world... Wheras Japan has always been a society very much rooted in military tradition. Not very Achurly (pardon the awful coinage) at all.

And while there does seem to be a bit of Shinto flavour amongst the Buddhist and Taoist tones to the Achur faith, I wouldn't take it far enough to say it's truly utterly rooted in it.

Honestly, though, Jin-Mei and Achura both seem to effectively be hodgepodges of far eastern cultures with slightly different flavours, without much real in depth exploration. So the only real thing to tie them to one of the other is language, and with the way people roleplay a million and one dialects coming from any given origin world, well... I don't think it really makes much difference, to be honest.
Logged

Gesakaarin

  • Guest
Re: Caldari / Achur relations
« Reply #14 on: 17 May 2013, 18:41 »

I see alot of what the Achur face as in many respects being similar to minority ethnic or religious communities in communist China. It's Caldari culture that remains dominant in the State and it is Caldari corporations that have all the power, control and authority but most importantly the access to force. Achur that disagree with Caldari corporate authority or express an opinion counter to what the big posters saying, "Caldari-Achur Friendship Forever" face the risk of persecution, discrimination, being branded as dissidents or having the corporate paramilitary deployed into their village to pacify the unrest caused by seditionists, insurrectionists and spies who have to be put down to ensure Peace & Order so that villagers can be relocated and the greater good served with the next new and exciting Sukuuvestaa development and investment opportunity.

I sometimes have a little chuckle when Caldari characters decry the Federation for cultural imperialism when the Caldari State is but a few degrees removed from the 19th century British Empire in its sense of cultural superiority, destiny and ability to use private companies to give the shaft to the natives as they are provided with the benefits of Caldari civilization.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10