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[Kohiko Sun]

Interesting, I seem to remember reading a discussion on achur history somewhere and there was an item description that had some interesting PF. Trying to find it but google-fu is failing me lol.

    \o/  *points down at the amazing powers of Morwen!*

[Morwen Lagann]

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1445151#post1445151

The "Ceremonial Brush" item still exists ingame in the database, so it can be linked. As far as I know, however, it and most other items like it still do not drop anywhere.

[Aria Jenneth]

I see alot of what the Achur face as in many respects being similar to minority ethnic or religious communities in communist China. It's Caldari culture that remains dominant in the State and it is Caldari corporations that have all the power, control and authority but most importantly the access to force. Achur that disagree with Caldari corporate authority or express an opinion counter to what the big posters saying, "Caldari-Achur Friendship Forever" face the risk of persecution, discrimination, being branded as dissidents or having the corporate paramilitary deployed into their village to pacify the unrest caused by seditionists, insurrectionists and spies who have to be put down to ensure Peace & Order so that villagers can be relocated and the greater good served with the next new and exciting Sukuuvestaa development and investment opportunity.

I sometimes have a little chuckle when Caldari characters decry the Federation for cultural imperialism when the Caldari State is but a few degrees removed from the 19th century British Empire in its sense of cultural superiority, destiny and ability to use private companies to give the shaft to the natives as they are provided with the benefits of Caldari civilization.

And yet, again, the Achura do not seem to share, for example, the Tibetan sense of their status as an oppressed minority (or local majority). There is no indication of significant (barely even insignificant) Achur discontent or separatism. None.

Which is fascinating, actually. Most societies subject to that kind of domination chafe under the yoke.

One thing I wonder a lot about is what being a "client" of SuVee means, as applied to a pre-industrial civilization. As a thought, it probably means an introduction to knowledge and trade, acting as an intermediary between that culture and the rest of the cluster-- and hundreds of years have passed since.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Morwen, your awesome.

[Gesakaarin]

And yet, again, the Achura do not seem to share, for example, the Tibetan sense of their status as an oppressed minority (or local majority). There is no indication of significant (barely even insignificant) Achur discontent or separatism. None.

Which is fascinating, actually. Most societies subject to that kind of domination chafe under the yoke.

One thing I wonder a lot about is what being a "client" of SuVee means, as applied to a pre-industrial civilization. As a thought, it probably means an introduction to knowledge and trade, acting as an intermediary between that culture and the rest of the cluster-- and hundreds of years have passed since.

It's a function of available of information, there's nothing to say that there cannot exist unrest in Saisio but SuVee is just great at repressing that information and ensuring it doesn't get a mention in State media. The State was meritocratic, stable and ordered society externally until worker's revolts and the Brothers of Freedom which lead to the rise of the CPD could not be contained. Just because the storyline team has not mentioned Achuran separatism does not invalidate it as a viewpoint or as a plausible perspective Achurans may form as a minority population in the State.

Perception is reality in Eve due to the inability to access any actual hard data or bodies of work. The Achur being a well-integrated and tolerated culture and society in the State is just as true as their being a repressed minority facing discrimination and persecution in addition to everything inbetween dependent on how a player or character views the issue.

It's a rather simple affair for any player or character to substitute another perspective on reality with their own and still remain consistent within the PF and lore because consensus isn't required for fictional interaction.

[Aria Jenneth]

Just because the storyline team has not mentioned Achuran separatism does not invalidate it as a viewpoint or as a plausible perspective Achurans may form as a minority population in the State.

Against a backdrop of extremely strong PF surrounding, say, Intaki separatists, the farthest I will go is conceding that it is perfectly valid to play an individual Achur separatist. Claiming something larger, such as widespread support for secession among the Achura, strikes me as a bridge too far.

I watched Boma Airaken try for years to inspire CCP to take the "Achur separatists" ball and run with it. They never did, and he did very well developing his character around these frustrated attempts, becoming increasingly bitter and alienated IC.

The State was meritocratic, stable and ordered society externally until worker's revolts and the Brothers of Freedom which lead to the rise of the CPD could not be contained.

The State was actually portrayed as riven with discontent for years before the Brothers of Freedom. There was a constant rumble from dissidents, and there were ongoing storylines hinting at Gallentean efforts to undermine State culture. Corporate abuses were widely publicized and much debated. That was the time during which the Guristas developed their patina of respectability as kinda-sorta rebels with a cause, thanks partly to TonyG before the melodrama became too obvious. (Believe it or not, there was a time when "Ruthless" was considered required reading for Caldari loyalists.)

It was coming for ages.

The Achura? The largest rumbling of discontent we've gotten as far as I can recall was a minor fit of controversy over the White Song. That and the apparently no longer canonical "Creator's Rod" mission cycle.

CCP's setting thrives on conflict. Where they want it, it tends to get at least hinted at. What we get for the Achura casts their relationship to the world around them less in terms of their sense of grievance and more in terms of their sense of curiosity.

Play as you see fit, Gesakaarin, but a poem does not mean whatever the reader decides it does. It's entirely possible to be simply, flatly wrong, and I say that as someone who is going to have to retroactively adjust a pile of character background and accompanying attitudes on account of this article. Separatism is too important a topic for us to take the lead on where there is no preexisting thread to follow, nothing to extrapolate from.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I hope no ones getting the impression that my character is pushing any sort of seperatist agenda with her contributions to the thread - Disrespect from Caldari characters has just finally pushed her to the point where she's no longer willing to completely avoid speaking her mind about how her people seem to be generally regarded. It's sort of an interesting dynamic having her be one of the only Achura not having been exposed to enough State culture to avoid feeling alienated.

In fact, in my opinion, seperatism seems a political platform that would sort of conflict with the Achur's "keep to your own affairs and don't leave big ripples in the pond" worldview. If there's a group of Achura that feel discontent with the State, it seems more probable that they would simply up and depart then attempt to make some sort of awkwardly forceful and painful fuss in an attempt to completely change their races place in the cluster.

And if the Demographics article for the Federation is any suggestion (with some Achura having been established as holding onto their original culture in small pockets quite adamantly) then this can already be assumed to have taken place on several occasions.

Edit: Also - I should say, I really don't envy anyone having to revise their characters in response to all this. My apologies is dragging this into the limelight has caused any stress.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I've always played Pieter as being ignorant of the Achur rather than dismissive. And HE was decanted in the Abagawa system and later stationed in the Saisio system - where he would have had more exposure to Achur than most Caldari.

But the Achur are notoriously insular. I doubt many of them (until lately) even bothered to take the shuttles to the up port. Heck, I bet they're even outnumbered around  the down ports!

[Gesakaarin]

Play as you see fit, Gesakaarin, but a poem does not mean whatever the reader decides it does. It's entirely possible to be simply, flatly wrong, and I say that as someone who is going to have to retroactively adjust a pile of character background and accompanying attitudes on account of this article. Separatism is too important a topic for us to take the lead on where there is no preexisting thread to follow, nothing to extrapolate from.

Of course I play as I want, which I would say that given the vast scale and size of New Eden and its factions I feel absolutely no need to enter into PF canon legalism which I find leads only to arbitrariness, pedantry and doctrinaire discussion which stifles creative ability in attempting to dictate to others based on a fictional body of work that is both contradictory and insufficient. The background fiction to me exists solely to provide the basis for constructing in-character perspective, opinion and worldview that should entirely be up to a player to decide and define for themselves.

For me to say otherwise would be like saying I objectively know everything there is to know about a society and culture because I happened to read a travel guide about it -- and that to me is an apt analogy given the gulf between the Eve fiction and lore as provided by CCP and the realization that it will always be insufficient given the fact the very societies they describe are vast interstellar factions encompassing billions to trillions of people.

That is besides the point that trying to base interactions solely upon what little information does grant leads to nothing more than trying to build castles upon foundations of sand because CCP has the prerogative to do as they please with their fiction and it's all always going to be a very real possibility that just because a viewpoint has not been elaborated at present that it won't be in the future - to use the current topic as an example, just because CCP has not released any information regarding potential Achuran separatism is no guarantee that they won't in the future.

Now, whilst I can give thanks to the content and storyline team for their continued work and efforts in bringing to life the rich tapestry of New Eden I don't need CCP approval for the creation of conflict in RP, because that conflict should arise out of competing and adversarial perspectives, opinions and worldviews defined by players for their characters that is plausible and believable within the fictional framework. To deprive players of that ability leads to nothing more than potentially waiting an eternity spinning ships for CCP Godot to hold people's hands and to provide special validation instead of trusting one's own creativity to provide the interaction, developments, and complexities required.

Because in a game which offers so much freedom and scope such as Eve has to offer, it's amazing at times for me to see roleplayers pre-occupied more with PF dogmatism instead of seeking to create their own content and define their own destinies. Sometimes I think Eve RP has lost that ability to openly discuss differing interpretations on the fiction instead preferring to wait for CCP to spoonfeed content in order to browbeat each other over points of canon doctrine worse than a bunch of cardinals in Rome.

[Aria Jenneth]

Okay, so having read the Demographics article with more detail and care, a few patterns emerge-- including why there is no substantial Achur separatist movement.

Most Achura do indeed remain on their homeworld as corporate subjects of SuVee. These subjects have been assimilated into Caldari society-- they are not Achura living in Caldari cities; they are Caldari. Presumably, they persist as a separate ethnic group mostly because of the Caldari practice of arranged marriages between individuals of similar appearance (the way the Deteis and Civire have remained ethnically and culturally distinct). "Half-breeds" (like almost every Achur PC I know of, for some reason) (no, I'm not an exception) are looked down on.

The Achura living in rural, monastic communities are a relatively small minority of their own bloodline, and largely isolated from the State. These are the Achura ruled over by what seems (by cross-referencing sources) to be an exceptionally disorganized theocracy made up of dozens of sects led by the Elder Visionaries. As a client state, they are considered "protected," but must effectively convert to the Caldari way of life, religion, etc., if they wish to live in the cities, enter corporate employment, etc.

Extremely interestingly, this seems to be the community that produces most Achur capsuleers.

This answers several questions.

First of all, the Achura do not rebel because they haven't got the fading ghost of a prayer of succeeding. SuVee has been on Achura for at least two hundred years, and the "indigenous" Achur people are a minority on their own world. Most of the planet's population are Achura by blood only. They're good little SuVee citizens, functionally Caldari. If the remaining Achura rebel, they stand to lose their protected status and become nonentities-- legal "nonpersons" within the State. This would be tantamount to cultural suicide, entitling SuVee to brush them aside at will or to wipe them out if it saw fit.

Also, ironically, they're also more fully independent of State control than any of us anticipated or appreciated. As a client community of the Caldari, they are expected to mostly keep to themselves, and apparently have been content to do so.

Secondly, references to Achur leaders in various places do, in fact, refer to leaders outside of the megacorporate structure: the Elder Visionaries. Presumably the monasteries are not their only domain, if only because not all rural Achura need live in one. A lot of details about the lives of rural Achura remain unexplored, such as how high the local technological level is, but we can maybe get a few ideas from the "background" notes, because ...

Thirdly, we're all rural Achura now. All of the possible backgrounds for the Achura bloodline find their foundation in some aspect of the highly-inquisitive, intellectual Achur culture-- which is extinct in the cities. The Stargazers look for answers (or at least metaphors) externally, in the heavens; the Monks look within themselves through martial practice, seeking the perfection of their souls; and the Inventors pluck ideas from the mind of the universal consciousness. Individual characters can, of course, claim to be from other backgrounds, and fair play to them. However, it appears that virtually all Achur capsuleers were drawn to the capsule by Achur cultural traits-- and, ironically, adopted the Caldari culture to obtain capsuleer access.

EEEEEEEEE!

It's freaking fascinating! CCP hasn't given us an info dump this good since they wrote the bloodline up for character creation! This, right here, THIS is worth rewriting a character background for.

[Ché Biko]

The Achura strike me as people that might choose the path of least resistance. That there is no visible discontent may be because if one desires to not be assimilated, there are ways to avoid that. The quotes from the demographics article indicate to me that the Achura culture as a whole is not threatened, and while you might not call the rural areas of Achur seperatist, they can practically be considered seperate from the state, in my opinion. Perhaps while the entire rural area of Achur may cover a lot of the planet, it could still be considered a "small client community" within the state, where plenty of Achura can live the way they desire. I think the State-Rural Achur situation is a bit like the Amish communities within the USA, both in relative size and interaction between the cultures, and possibly even with the relatively low-tech way of life.

[Aria Jenneth]

I think the State-Rural Achur situation is a bit like the Amish communities within the USA, both in relative size and interaction between the cultures, and possibly even with the relatively low-tech way of life.

Well-- I'm not sure the Amish get to make their own laws, for example. Perhaps a better example would be the Native American tribes in the US-- only with most of the planet as their reservation? And probably without the active attempts (forty or so years ago, yes yes) to destroy their culture?

I'm not sure about the low tech. Perhaps relative to the highly tech-focused Caldari, but remember that Inventors are one of the respected Achur backgrounds, and they're certainly not wholly ignorant of interstellar culture. Also, apparently they're routinely capable of producing individuals fit for capsuleer training in the State. I'm guessing the candidates for such positions need a higher than "pre-industrial" level of technical sophistication.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

A quick word on your assessment, Aria - Where does it say that Achura living in the cities have been forced to completely abandon their own culture? I took the "corporate subjects" statement to refer to all the Achur on the planet, with the Elder Visionaries being an entity that is recognized throughout the planet, but only practically control the rural areas where SuVee's influence is extremely weak. I didn't read the distinction as a hard line between two that you seemed to, where the Achura in the cities are all universally "Caldari", and those in the countryside are not.

...That also wouldn't make a great deal of sense in regard to cultural development and osmosis.

I'm also not sure about them being the "majority" of the people on the planet, but I suppose that's entirely subjective/not actually very important.

[Aria Jenneth]

Tch. Note to self: show your work.

Where are those quotes....

Most ethnic Achura are subjects of SuVee.

The vast majority of Achura can be found on their homeworld as corporate subjects of the Sukuuvestaa corporation.

Corporate citizens must be culturally Caldari.

Caldari are often mistaken to be racist, as they are extremely intolerant of individuals practicing non-Caldari customs in the State, commonly foreigners and expatriates. Caldari society is not pluralistic, meaning any individual who wishes to become a full citizen (even ethnic Caldari born in the Federation) must abandon all previous marks of identity and adapt to the State’s meticulous standard.

Originally I had doubts about the implications of "citizen" versus "subject," but further reading shows the Caldari practicing a strict policy of cultural (not racial) apartheid. The Achura are not an exception. Those in the cities were assimilated. Those in the rural areas remained reclusive introverts.

Their pre-industrial Achura Empire ... was uprooted and replaced by minority Caldari rule. This mostly affected major population centers, which were modernized to become full cities according to the Caldari standard. The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted.

The phrasing surrounding which category of Achura were not assimilated implies that they were in the rural areas. The "Caldari standard" practiced in the cities appears, then, to mean culturally Caldari, as well as architecturally. In order to be properly part of the State, one has to accept its culture. For the Achura living in Caldari cities to differ culturally, they would have to move out.

The remaining 1-5% of the registered State population is primarily made up of the Achura, with a handful of Intaki and Khanid. They are expected to either shed all previous hallmarks of their identity (both publically and privately) and adapt to the Caldari way, or keep to themselves in small client communities isolated from the wider State.

Emphasis mine. This is exactly what the rural Achura do. The Caldari would not tolerate a culturally-distinct group living in their cities.

Note that Achura must adopt Caldari culture to be considered for capsuleer training.

As the capsuleer training process is ostensibly Caldari in the State, their Achura identities and culture would be removed and replaced by the Caldari way. Because the wider Caldari put more emphasis on cultural compliance over ethnic origin, these encultured Achura are considered full citizens in equal standing.

That's us. Happily, we can revert.

However, the independence granted to capsuleers means that many Achura after graduation choose to revert back to their original culture.

The "introverted" Achura mentioned in our bloodline description are the ones who maintain the old culture in the rural areas of the homeworld. This is the domain of the Achura as a "client people," as opposed to "Caldari of Achur ethnicity."

The rural areas were mostly ignored, dotted with thousands of Achura monasteries. Some were displaced for mining operations, but for the most part, Achura who had not been assimilated remained reclusive and introverted....

While there is an autonomous Achura government known as the Elder Visionaries, they mostly control the monasteries in the rural areas of the homeworld. The Elder Visionaries are as reclusive and introverted as an entity can be whilst still participating in cluster affairs, primarily in the areas of interstellar religion.

The alternative to formalized, protected isolation, however, is infinitely worse.

Like with every interstellar empire in New Eden, there are numerous minor races and civilizations that exist in Caldari borders. Unless they choose to enter a client agreement with a State megacorporation, which very few do, these groups are treated as non-entities and are not accounted for in the system. They have no rights or protections, meaning they are frequently displaced or otherwise removed should a megacorporation require it. As the Caldari code of honor typically only applies to fellow Caldari, these incidents are not regarded as an ethical consideration in the State. The utilitarian outlook of the Caldari megacorporations means that they will not sacrifice majority gain for the rights of an obscure non-Caldari minority.

Cheery stuff, no?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Erk. Well, that about does it, then. I'd been taking "corporate subjects" to not necessarily mean actual members of the corporation, merely people living largely at their mercy, but if you link those statements together I must admit it doesn't appear paticularly likely.

C'est la vie. I was kind of hoping it wasn't the case, but I suppose I'll have to adjust my roleplay as well around the fact that the Achur culture is probably indominant and not very much respected even on their own homeworld.

...

Bahh - I shouldn't go off topic, yet... Call it blending, but I confess it bothers me a bit OOCly that all eastern or far eastern inspired cultures in EVE are essentially submissive and in decline towards ones that are, predominantly, European. The Caldari are a mild exception, but their Japanese influence seems to be increasingly downplayed, and they're... Well, white, on top of that, to be frank.