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[Hamish Grayson]

My feelings are that when the Achur were introduced the intent was that they weren't especially oppressed and anyone claiming they were had zero support from PF.  However, the new crowd at the reigns in Iceland has other ideas.

[Hamish Grayson]

Since resettling in the Achura home system of Saisio after the evacuation of Caldari Prime, the corporation has become the sentimental favorite of the Achura population for both employment and purchasing decisions. Many of the corporation's high level positions are filled by Achura, and images from Achura culture are often used for corporate products. However, corporate philosophy is still dominated by SuVee traditions that date back to its origins on Caldari Prime, not Achura culture.

Ha!   I've raised this point many times in Achur threads over the last several years and I wonder if that bit was added to kill that line of deduction by Verone.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Judging by the edit history indicating it was put up in late 2011, I would personally guess no.

[Hamish Grayson]

SuVee's control over the media is a logical explanation for a lack of information on Achur dissent.  However, it's possible there are other reason or even other reason in combination with media control.

Is it possible that since the Caldari don't actually do much on planets that they've left Saiso untouched outside of concentrated zones?   Or alternatively, why would SuVee pick Saiso as their HQ?   Perhaps the reason is because the newly formed mega had some homeless Civire and Deties freshly evicted from Caldari Prime and the Achur had a nice lush, fertile planet with warm breezes and tasty songbirds to live on.    Could it be that they didn't want to turn their new secret paradise into a strip mine or industrial waste zone when they could strip mine the barren world next door for all the minerals they need and easily do all the industry in orbit?  Why muck up your new home if you don't have to?

Zero-G Research Firm is a small research firm that specializes in space habitats and other life support modules for humans. In its heyday Zero-G was hailed as the great hope of the Caldari people

That suggest that places with breathable air were of immense value to the Caldari at one point and I can see SuVee hording a paradise world like a precious gem.   This could explain why:

The Achura only become recognized and known to the rest of the cluster during the capsuleer era

.

Considering that the total combined population of Civire and Deties cluster wide right after the exodus was probably only in the tens of millions and SuVee's relatively tiny size when compared to the other mega's could mean that SuVee only had a couple of million (if even that many) non-achurians to house.  They would have had to spread that already thin population among other worlds as well as several space stations, meaning that the new arrivals, who were likely housed in newly built cities or even a single city, probably had little impact on the planet as a whole.   

For comparison the island of Manhattan is only 23 square miles and has a population of 1.6 Million people.

TLDR:   During the founding of the State, minerals were abundant while tropical beaches were priceless.  The Caldari probably chose to preserve them.

[Vincent Pryce]

Unsure if it's retconned or not but it used ot be that Saisio was ravaged by SuVee in tried and true neotokyo dystopia manner. This could have been changed ofc.

I imagine the the need for hedonistic enjoyment would have been viewed as a gallente trait and eschewed while running for your lives to rebuild your society, however amassing massive fortune to build a nation and ascertaining SuVee as one of the cornerstones of this fledgling nation as both political and military power. In that race to build societal infrastructure, well oiled warmachine and civilian industry the need or attention for recreational endeavours would fall short in the stereotypical "duty, loyalty, honor" trinity.

That's jsut my 0.02isk.

[Aria Jenneth]

I think it might be putting a particularly Gallentean-flavored gloss on things if we interpret this data to show that the Achura are oppressed.

* The SuVee takeover was a pretty straight-up uplift with a side-order of cultural assimilation arguably necessary for going straight from pre-industrial to post-warp drive. There's no indication that the process was violent or even particularly unwelcome; the Caldari threw their weight around a bit, but that was pretty much inevitable.

* The Caldari appear to recognize the Achur faith as close kin to Wayism. They've had three centuries of apparently unchallenged control to annihilate the indigenous Achur culture if they so desired. Implication: they do not so desire. Indeed, SuVee seems to enjoy living with such interesting neighbors and uses Achur cultural symbols in its marketing even if it, itself, is culturally Caldari. Achur sentiment re: SuVee, at least among the acculturated, bespeaks gratitude (of course, they're also heavily indoctrinated).

* The Caldari really hate the idea of being culturally influenced from outside (and traditional Achur culture is not wholly compatible with cutthroat megacorporate culture-- it's less about competition and more about understanding). The Achura are welcome to practice their own traditional culture and even exercise what seems to be a high degree of autonomy so long as they do it at home; entering the State proper comes at the cost of integration. The Achura are not cut off from interstellar contact; they're just not an interstellar power (and show minimal interest in becoming one).

It's not exactly apartheid South Africa, here, folks, even if there does seem to be more than a whiff of that about the relationship. The cultural groups are separate (and inherently unequal), but it doesn't seem like the Caldari are either trying to "civilize" the Achura or even holding themselves to be inherently superior. However, elements of both probably creep in.

Results probably vary, depending (for obvious example) on whether a traditional Achur is dealing with an integrated Achur who has relatives living in a monastic communities, a Civire who has several ethnic Achur dormatory-mates and is researching Achur symbolism to incorporate into a new SuVee advertising campaign, or a Templis Dragonaur who thinks that the whole "client people" thing was a big mistake and Achura as both ethnicity and culture should be treated as non-entities.

[Vikarion]

I'll try to give a care here.

I'd point out that the Caldari are very inconsistent on what they don't like. To me, this points to the Caldari as a culture that isn't xenophobic in the sense that we might call it, but rather has adopted a sort of willful xenophobia. What the Caldari appear to hate is being forced to adopt anything that they, collectively, dislike. So, for example, the Caldari loved the corporate idea, loved the idea of space flight, etc etc, but when the Gallente tried to pressure the Caldari into adopting other (possibly beneficial) ideas, the Caldari went nuts. Think of Caldari culture as a sort of water that may dissolve things into it, but turns to ice if something is imposed from without.

This would explain how the Caldari could enjoy Achuran traditions or allow Achuran and Intaki religions within the State: they aren't perceived as outside "impositions". In this sense, then, Caldari xenophobia would be largely a function of perceived coercion - i.e., the more you try to make me do something, the less I'm going to do it. So, when Suvee sets down on Saisio, the reaction might well have been not "obviously these people are inferior to our great Caldari culture", but simply "what can we get out of this?".

As such, to a certain extent, it might be quite possible for you to practice any religion you want in the State, so long as you do not actually try to proselytize.

I only use this idea as a different point of view, and probably not in line with PF, and certainly won't be in line with future PF, where I expect to see the Caldari herding Achurans into death camps.

And, derp, just read Jenneth's post. I suppose this was basically a pointless post. :-P

[Utsukushi Shi]

I would say I generally agree with you but would point out it does not even have to be about Caldari/Achur culture clash specifically. There was bound to be upheaval of all sorts just from the sudden advance in technology as an example. There is always going to be someone who loses out, and it is plausible that their descendants would hold a grudge. Whether truly justified or not.
I guess I just think there is room in the PF for it.

[Aria Jenneth]

Souchek:

I'm not saying otherwise, though a person with such motives would probably be well-advised to keep them hidden, even from rural traditionalists. Destabilization of the status quo can only end badly for the remaining traditional Achura.


Vikarion:

Heh. Sorry about that.

I actually think that the current PF is headed away from Provist control rather than into increasingly crazy depths. This bit we just looked over actually does an excellent job of "threading the needle" of existing PF. It caught us off guard in a couple specific ways: the traditional Achura are simultaneously weaker, fewer, and more autonomous than we understood. They're also more closely associated with the Achur capsuleer-- a primary source, not a rare "exotic" background.

Interesting stuff.

I don't think CCP is likely to do anything that would take Achura off the menu as capsuleers, such as rendering them a truly repressed minority, any more than it's going to mess up Gallente character creation by having Intaki actually secede from the Federation. They might surprise me, and I kind of hope they do, but they're not going to do it like this.

The pattern of current PF is to make the Caldari more distinct to strengthen and flesh out the existing cultural traits, not to vilify the whole culture. It makes them less "good," if "good" means Gallente, but it also makes them more vivid and interesting-- without making them any less human.

For my part, I quite like it: new information, new twists, and tired old arguments are all of a sudden fresh and crisp again.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I referenced this briefly earlier, but I was looking over the article again this morning, and I feel it's worth a direct mention since this thread has essentially become a discussion of all things Achur related.

They, as it turns out, are also a notable minority in the Federation - Despite never having been a member. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Achura

Funnily enough, it sounds like there are a lot more traditionalist/"Rural" Achur spread out over the Federation outside of their homeworld then the State, which I suppose makes sense, considering the lack of a demand for cultural conformity. (Although I wouldn't be too hasty to shower them with praise, considering the mention of mingling with Intaki culture. The "Old Ways" are probably getting a slow but stiff boiling in a melting pot.) It's kind of funny that their relationship with the wider Federation is basically exactly the same as the one they hold with the wider State, working quietly and apolitically as teachers and scientists and so fourth.

Also, as I said earlier, this sort of implies that there were at least some Achura who retained their original culture and faith - And therefore probably came directly from Saisio and weren't Caldari citizens - Who basically ditched the State wholesale at some point or another. I wonder what reasons they might've had...? Considering the established seclusionism and profound attachment to their homeworld, it must have taken some pretty major disillusionment for them to up and hop the border to their overseers worst enemy.

Or perhaps they simply recognize it's the only way to get offworld without submitting to Caldarification?

"Smallest major bloodline" is a neat tidbit, too.

[Hamish Grayson]

There is certainly plenty of room for that, but just because they've moved to the Federation doesn't necessitate them having negative feelings with the State either.   Being scientist, thinker, teacher philosopher types might motivate some to simply go walk among the Stars and see whats to be seen with no political motivations at all.   If they are generally apolitical then why let a little something like a war stop them from going out to observe a new culture?

[Horatius Caul]

They, as it turns out, are also a notable minority in the Federation - Despite never having been a member. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Achura

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4451.msg70232#msg70232

[Lyn Farel]

It does not surprise me to see a lot of Achura in the Federation too. "Petty political conflicts" and borders are less significant for their relaxed and spiritual way of life. They do not seem to care a lot for materialism and I think that most Achura actually being Caldari and part of the State are the leaders or the more involved kind of Achura. That's also probably why the Achura are usually considered part of the Caldari.

[Hamish Grayson]

The blurb about the Achur in the Federation demographics is quite brilliant actually.   It says nothing more than there are Achur living happy and well within the Federation and gives no reason for the why.   I think the intent was to give a sandbox tool that sets a preccident for players behind an Achurian character who want to either work out of Federation space or have a cback story tied to the Federation.   The tool is equally usable by a player who's character is Anti-Caldari, Pro-Caldari or neutral.    Elegant.

[Aria Jenneth]

Agreed.

Now about this whole "ruined biosphere" etc., etc. that I keep hearing about. Is that just people extrapolating based on SuVee's arrival on Achura, then repeating it because they've seen it used before? Or is that actually canon or quasi-canon from someplace?

It doesn't seem like it matches up with the story the Demographics article tells very well-- that rural Achura was mostly left alone except for a couple of mining sites, and plays into Gallentean presumptions WAY too well for me to trust it.

(As an aside: the Way of the Winds is very nature spirit-oriented, in fairly Shinto style. I have a little difficulty seeing the Caldari, corporate or not, as New Eden's swarm of locusts.)