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[DeadRow]

Or maybe we offer content beyond textboxes.

[Julianni Avala]

Speaking on the point of what Charles said regarding smaller groups, I have to agree that they should be cherished. Many of the serious roleplayers that compose stories quite well, I've found, lie in smaller organizations. My opinion is based on I suppose a "first impression" of the community; I've had more welcome and open arms as a new player from smaller groups than large ones.

This isn't the say that larger groups are necessarily bad, of course. Forgive me for plugging in the Alliance I'm a part of (IRED). But I know we try to create content as well. It's just a matter of if people actually take part in it or not.

Overall, my opinion really isn't worth that much in this discussion, but I did at least want to point out that smaller organizations are, in my opinion, precious.

[Kasuko]

Overall, my opinion really isn't worth that much in this discussion, but I did at least want to point out that smaller organizations are, in my opinion, precious.

What makes your opinion worth less than anyone else's?

[Julianni Avala]

Being new and much less knowledgeable of factors that may have influenced people's own opinions. It could be said that I have a very naive view on the roleplay community here.

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

The biggest thing you (the collective "you") can do to kickstart Caldari RP is to do things out in space.  Obviously, I'm trying a new approach with Faded Light, and you have the traditional FacWar loyalist corps and organizations out there.  Apart from I-RED, in whatever state it's currently in, and the Heiian Conglomerate, I'm not really sure what other groups there are out there that serve to draw people interested in Caldari RP into their fold.  Arataka, perhaps?  Depends on whether Makoto and co. view it more as a Caldari or multinational group, I guess.

To that end, engage with each other on the forums, in-game, and try to bring fresh blood into the fold.  Don't be an asshole to the new people, don't hit them with a wall of lore and tell them to "memorize it by Saturday"... just be flexible, make RP fun for them, and do things in space.  Do this, and I'll bet that good things will come from it.

This pretty much the "recipe" for SFRIM.  Hope to see more Caldari rpers and good luck!

[Charles Cambridge Schmidt]

Being new and much less knowledgeable of factors that may have influenced people's own opinions. It could be said that I have a very naive view on the roleplay community here.

I've been here for a few years and I still feel like "the new guy." I wouldn't worry about it.

Your opinion is just as valid, if not more so (in my eyes), for this specific argument. As someone new to the community, you personally went through the processes of becoming acclimated and introduced to the lore, the RP, and the Caldari bloc more recently than anyone else here. What you went through and how is absolutely relevant information.

[Ayallah]

Here is another perspective for you guys:

I am a pvper, I always have been.  From day 1 newbie I was overly aggressive and now I absolutely am at the top of the 'e-peen' pile in PL with my Nyx and all my Theraboi/wilderness friends and knowledge of the game and shit. 

Like I have literally won every single 1v1 or even 1v3 I started or finished by some IC actions over the years.  Aya is virtually unchallenged by anyone anymore because either people got tired of arguing the same shit (hurr ur not a kameira) or I went out in space and killed them, or mostly because people generally came around to accepting her as a character.

Guess what?  I am not living in some candy land place where I have ultimate authority and get all the RP I want because I main a pvp char.  There isn't some special victory and for the overwhelming majority of the "totally awesome killing in space because of RP reasons" the people involved quit or just didn't care. 

All RP circles are quiet and 'dead' or dying.  It is because there is a small population of us playing this game.  We have old drama and factional reasons to not speak with each other or interact, we all have real lives and live in different timezones.   

Being able to pvp never seemed to win me any RP at all, just win me fewer people who dared to speak up and speak out against my character.

From an IC or eve is a pvp game perspective: I won a long time ago.  No one has called Aya a liar in years, very few people dare to insult her or talk shit around her, very few people will come at her to start new drama. 

But in Roleplay all those things are content.  If I play a contentious or maybe even villainous character and no one is willing to argue with me or hate me anymore then I am just as starved of interactions.   

There isn't a lot of focus to my rants, there never is especially as my mind has gone more these last few years but I guess I am just trying to say that PvP is not related in any way I can see to the state or RP one way or the other. 

If people who don't want to PvP feel that they can't rp and people who pvp feel like they can't rp because no one wants to with them, then isn't really just the problem people not wanting to rp?   Honestly I think CC's point on page 1 was best: eve lore has a huge learning curve.  I know I got into a lot of drama and felt ostracized when older players rpers were 'shitting' on my rp because I didn't know all the information. 

I know that as someone now 4 years deep into rp that its super fucking difficult to rp with people who don't know the lore well enough.  The change in perspective never solved the actual problem though.

This is another tangent but, I just think the problems with RP are tied to RP and the physical limitations of a small population roleplaying divisive factions and the expected rl feelings people catch and not the influence of pvp one way or another.

The point can be made that I don't have to work as hard IC to convince someone of the reality of my character and immerse them in *my* story if I can just fly to their space and kill them and immerse them that way? 

I just really don't think things are any greener on the pvp in space killer side for roleplay.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Absolutely right, Aya. I still remember trying to celebrate my thousandth kill in the IGS, expecting the announcement to cause drama and contention (content) with Amarr and Caldari celebrating with me and Gallente and Matari being all stern about it.

The response was apathy or a very muted reaction. The RP crowd don't like to talk about PvP, is my experience.

[Lunarisse Aspenstar]

Obviously you aren't talking to Maria, Pieter *she pouts*

More seriously, I've seen rps related to PVP....

One of my favorite all time scenes remains the chat and in space roleplay where luna escaped a pirate gang in a failed bash on a Sansha POS (glances innocently at ValDLM) and was hole up in a station where vincent pryce ran into her,  Luna pretended there was nothing wrong while the pirates smack talked in local trying to wait her out (like she's normally be found in a dive bar in the middle of low sec) until she caved and Vincent helped her escape by escorting her battlecruiser out of low sec to high sec.

I've seen memorial services or bar commiseration due to ganks or hard losses.  Luna has a cemetary where those crews who were recovered from wrecks or in a damage ship when it returns to dock are buried.

I've seen small gang or bash celebrations (or mourning!) after particularly memorable space fights (including local rps in the course of them) .
PIE routinely rps in local with rpers and confused non-rp community recipients, some whom end up getting into the spirit of things!

Both luna and maria will roleplay the aftermath of being podded and the spiritual emotional tangles that can be involved (especially if it is among the first times).  Even though Maria gets podded more routinely, she generally changes hair/appearance to reflect a new clone.

Dunno.. guess my experience is different?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

You're like me, though, Luna - a PvP'er that RPs. I meant that there's a seriously huge number of RP'ers that do not.

[Karmilla Strife]

I don't think PVP should be the only in space activity that matters to RP. It's probably the most exciting. One of my characters is an Ammatar geologist, guess what she does in space? I've had fun in the past with IC mission running fleets or even just sightseeing trips to New Eden "landmarks". I think anything done in game can give your character something to talk about and interact with other characters about. In my own case look at all the drama and rp that resulted from a poorly handled informal courier contract.

If anything I RP crowd that does not PVP, or the RPers who don't undock are looked down upon those of us who do things in space.

Trying to get back on topic: Is Heiian College active at all? Is there an alternative channel similar to "The Good Word" for Caldari business? As an Amarr RPer I've found it easier to RP with Gallente and Minmatar than my factional allies because they have (or had) channels to communicate in.

[Rinai Vero]

Pieter,

I definitely know what you're talking about with mixed reactions from RPers to PVP content. One of the most fun RP/PVP events I ever did in FW was organizing a campaign to retake the Ladistier system for the FDU.  It was done as a completely in character deal, motivated by the presence of the President Bureau station there and the idea that with it in Caldari hands the surrounding region was cut off from effective representation in government.

The reaction to it on the IGS was less than awesome.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=406290

The first response is pretty much the definition of OOC trolling, imo... and it keeps going from there.   Does Ping Pong exist in New Eden?

The Pendulum War meme has some validity to it, but I really question how far some characters have taken it.  Diana Kim's topic on the subject definitely has a point.  It strains credulity that actual people living in the setting would be quite so dismissive of the conflict.

[Teinyhr]

It strains credulity that actual people living in the setting would be quite so dismissive of the conflict.

Normally you would be right, but player characters are capsuleers. We shoot each other with thermonuclear weapons and worse for fun or because we're bored. In my books capsuleers being dismissive of empire wars that go nowhere is nothing but realistic.

As for ping pong, well, we don't know if anything from current earth exists in new eden, but that doesn't stop people from having pet cats and dogs and panthers and eating everyday foods from 20,000+ years ago.

In the same vein calling Gallente frogs is a very OOC insult (because they're french lul), nobody seems to care. I mean I'm sorta on your side here, but it's just easier for everyone to not nitpick all the things you or I feel don't belong in the setting.

[Rinai Vero]

Nah, I appreciate what you're saying.  That's why I started out saying that the "Pendulum War" meme is somewhat valid.

I think the RP/PVP tension, and the specific flavor of it that relates to FW, is an example of the good and bad of how people handle OOC/IC.  Part of me thinks that the "Pendulum War" idea was actually a really clever way for us to handle the reality of FW's stagnant game mechanics from an IC perspective.  The problem is when its overused as a bludgeon to denigrate people for participating in content they enjoy.  OOC I'm as frustrated as anyone that FW mechanics are so stagnant, but Rinai can hardly tell someone ICly "hey, fuckoff, you know as well as I do that CCP has been working on nullsec this whole time."

OOCly, the platonic ideal is that everyone who's RPing wants other RPers to have good RP, even the ones they are "opposed to" IC.  It gets messy when people, and I'm guilty of this as well, are naturally mixing the metagame of their competitive internet spaceship PVP / propaganda with their IC actions and statements.  EVE's cutthroat nature is always there.

Which brings us back to the whole "doing stuff in space" issue, and what Pieter's talking about with some RPers who don't like to talk about, or who even disparage, PVP content.

[Aradina]

Trying to get back on topic: Is Heiian College active at all?

It has a few people lurking in it(like me), but there isn't any conversation.

Eves gameplay doesn't really translate well to RP in my experience. When I was looking for a new corp(with a focus toward RP corps) I checked their killboards as part of considering them. Pvp is an important aspect of the game for me, and even if a corp looks nice from an RP perspective I can't really just accept that I'd have to solo a lot(I'm bad at solo, from my limited experience with it) or find other groups to run around shooting things with. I ended up with Alexylva Paradox because pvp is a main aspect of WH life(I also wanted to move into wormholes) and there's an RP connection. I never ended up getting into any corp related RP but the people are nice so that's good.

The RP communities relationship with pvp is mixed, at best. I'm not a huge fan of the unfortunately common "your argument is invalid because the ships you destroy have crews!" thing. It makes it difficult for me to RP because I have to choose between my character being a massive hypocrite or an unrepentant psychopath. The expectation of being IC 100% of the time in space is a harsh one to say the least and I feel like it punishes pvpers. Why does Aradina gank that random explorer? "Protecting Origin" is a good hand-wave, since that's a large part of the OOC reason. Intel is valuable in WH so that 3 day old character could be a seed, and should be removed via Caldari Navy Antimatter, but the other part of the OOC reason is simply that I want killmarks on my raptor. Aradina doesn't hunt down some random for the sake of it, but I do because I want to ruin the game for other people apparently enjoy hunting stuff.

Considering the low population, trying to limit RP groups to corps feels like a poor plan. Everyone just makes their own with blackjack and a copy of Source. The same is true of channels too, and no one wants to be in a million different channels just to find RP. The big world mixed with very limited direct in-game interactions makes RP difficult. I don't really have any solutions to this problem beyond "obtain more roleplayers".

I was cooking food while writing this and adding stuff between checking on that, so if it seems rambling and pointless that would be why. Blame food. I promise I had a point.

Walking in stations would of course fix everything and make us all happy no I don't overuse strikethrough why do you say that.