Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Ember Vykos on 10 Dec 2016, 20:59
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So yeah...as stated I decided to try to remake the Heiian College channel since it is a bit out of date and Dex...to my knowledge doesn't play anymore.
The channel will be called Heiian Institute, and is currently open.
We'll call this a soft opening while we try to get more mods than myself and John Revenent.
Any interested parties please let one of us know here or in game.
Official IC post on IGS soon to follow.
Also working on recreating the Heiian Society and a few other things as well.
Same thing with interested parties in any of that goodness :D
Yes I do suck at posting...but hope this gets the point across.
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Join up! Get involved!
No more complaining that Caldari RP is dead, lets do something about it! Yeah! More exclamation marks!!!!!!11!1
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I shall wibble on over tomorrow!
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I joined! :yar:
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I enjoy exclamation marks also!
(join the channel, for the glory of the State!)
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I joined the channel too :D
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Endorsing this product and/or service, with minimal sarcasm.
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Sweet, I will jump in right now. I get a bit lonely in Heiian College channel all on my own.
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Very nice to see :)
Sadly got alot of irl work and might not be as active I want to be.
And yes Dex dont play anymore, only spoked with him of FB on occasions.
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\o/
Good initiative
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*plants State Protectorate flag*
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I'm gonna necro this thread to point out that actual RP doesn't seem to have actually happened out of this initiative. I'm still RPing in the same, small, circles that I have been for years - barring the new Drifter stuff.
How do we defeat the problem of Caldari RP tending to happen within certain corporate or political silos?
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Are there other Caldari channels around besides the ones mentioned above?
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I'm gonna necro this thread to point out that actual RP doesn't seem to have actually happened out of this initiative. I'm still RPing in the same, small, circles that I have been for years - barring the new Drifter stuff.
How do we defeat the problem of Caldari RP tending to happen within certain corporate or political silos?
One thing I believe to have observed and tends to happen not only with some other games I play/have played but also EVE is that for a lot of factions similar to the State, it seems to be a very intensive sort of vetting process that can burn a lot of people out very, very, very quickly.
RPing as a Federal has really shined the light on how many fucking people don't read lore, or disregard lore, or simplify lore or have lore simplified to them. I imagine this problem persists with the Caldari side of things, too; many people simply try to RP as specific corp-loyal, not knowing fun specifics or ramifications behind the megacorporation they supposedly pledge under, and that seems to generate a lot of friction...? Maybe? A similar problem lies with the ignorance of said lore, too: I've spoken with a lot of newbeans who think that a lot of the Cal RP has to be megacorp related. Seriously.
To me, I could probably never manage RPing a Caldari. Rather, a State loyal one. From seeing how things are discussed on the forums, how allegiances are touted about or critiqued... I don't know, I've been RPing around here for years and have a lot of people who enjoy me and I'm still intimidated by the fucking concept of trying to keep up with a lot of the more experienced Statespeople.
I've even heard the light-hearted term thrown about of the "Professional Arguers."
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The biggest thing you (the collective "you") can do to kickstart Caldari RP is to do things out in space. Obviously, I'm trying a new approach with Faded Light, and you have the traditional FacWar loyalist corps and organizations out there. Apart from I-RED, in whatever state it's currently in, and the Heiian Conglomerate, I'm not really sure what other groups there are out there that serve to draw people interested in Caldari RP into their fold. Arataka, perhaps? Depends on whether Makoto and co. view it more as a Caldari or multinational group, I guess.
To that end, engage with each other on the forums, in-game, and try to bring fresh blood into the fold. Don't be an asshole to the new people, don't hit them with a wall of lore and tell them to "memorize it by Saturday"... just be flexible, make RP fun for them, and do things in space. Do this, and I'll bet that good things will come from it.
As an aside, I've been quite enjoying the thread on the IGS for Faded Light, at least until the last page or so. There was genuinely interesting back-and-forth between people on different sides, assumptions challenged, and all that. Good stuff.
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I've noticed, though, that a group can either do things in space or be welcome in RP circles. As someone else pointed out, in order to get the numbers or the quality you need to be really effective in space, you wind up attracting a band of brothers who have very little IC reason to hang together.
Pyre was the ultimate expression of this. Matari rebels. Caldari Corporatists. Gurista. Angels. Blooders. SANSHA.
I was effectively given the choice of flying with my space friends or participating in RP. I certainly didn't pay my premium to RP in channels, so I wound up a gritty Spaec Merc instead of the Loyalist I always intended Pieter to be.
Loyalist groups tend to be tiny and therefore not terribly effective in space. Effective groups wind up being mostly non-RPers with a hardcore of RPers. Witness Morlag spluttering and scrambling because her non-IC spacefriends decided to try and kill the Empress!
Several Caldari RPers wound up hoist by our shorts when boisterous ex-Pyre elements decided to show some RPers the back of their hands. Some of the stuff our Spacefriends do just isn't defensible in-character, and some of the RP community relishes this infighting and likes to put the boot in there, instead.
Maybe the key is to start RP alts? I dunno. Does anybody manage to successfully RP anything other than a gangster thug while doing things in space?
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I'll toss another possibility out there - bring in non-RP people, and convert them into RPers.
Before you toss a frying pan at me for the suggestion, I'd like to point out that for the first year or two of my EVE career I was definitely not an RPer. But I joined the Star Fraction because it was a place to get cheap ships, and fight good uphill battles, and over time I tried it out and enjoyed it. In short, it was a gateway corporation, and now I'll probably be RP4Lyfe (that was bad, I know!) :P.
But everyone in EVE loves a good story. And many people might be up for RPing their character into the story, and just don't know it yet. In short - stop treating EVE RP like a zero-sum game, in my opinion. Try and grow the RP base, and bring on people who are up for it. Prime reason why Faded Light's RP-only (albeit light), so that there's no inherent RP/non-RP divide internally. I've seen what happens when that divide exists, the non-RPers grow faster than the RP segment of the corp, and eventually dominate it (see also: Stimulus).
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The Heiian College kinda fell flat, mostly because the others who were involved have been dragged off due to RL. I've managed to write up the foundation and several projects, made attempts to outreach to the Caldari RPers for help with making the project cohesive but it never happened.
That said, I'm still puttering away with the initiative but one man is still one man.
As for the non-RPers turning into RPers, this was I-RED's goal throughout my Executorship. I-RED in its current state has turned to a more RP centric organization that can still continue the operations I once put forth by using IC means such as hiring mercenaries like RDC/404/Akagi to name a few. Does it make them 'weak', sure. Do they have fun running a corporate atmosphere and still do space-relevant things? I think they do. Some people like heavy RP and commit to the consequences actions or affiliations may have, thats their right. The otherside has the same right though they can't handwave it to everyone. Specifically groups like I-RED, ILF and PIE (Who try to adhere to the lore as much as possible to keep their status as full on loyalists).
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Does anybody manage to successfully RP anything other than a gangster thug while doing things in space?
I've done a bit of anti ganking, as an in character activity. It's been surprisingly successful, and it gives me something to wave around and say "look what I did". Ultimately it's not really made me space relevant, but I get killmails and Dodixie was a slightly better place for a few days. I should get back to it when I have time.
People in space is good. I don't know why there seems to be this perceived negativity when talking about the "in space" side of RP. Maybe there's some history there to be put to bed.
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People in space is good. I don't know why there seems to be this perceived negativity when talking about the "in space" side of RP. Maybe there's some history there to be put to bed.
Negativity I'd guess comes from an age old source - rather strikingly elitist attitudes that some of the people who do it shove on people who don't. I remember seeing a discussion where a newbie roleplayer was practically shat on for trying to help slaves, because he didn't "physically" go free (read:buy) slaves from Amarr space and fly them to Minmatar space. I could hardly believe what I was seeing.
As for why "in space RP" is also hard is that it requires IMO quite a bit of creativity and imagination since our ways of interacting with the game world is quite limited - mainly we can just blow stuff up, go somewhere and probe stuff out (and blow stuff up there), and that's about it. That is not to say you can't do anything, yet another thing I remember was seeing people go survey Arzad II, one of those people being of Starkman descent. There was a thread on it on IGS when said Starkman character was shot down in orbit by was it some PIE -pilot.
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I'm not sure how much you have to do to be 'relevant' in space. Pieter does mostly Anti-Drifter ops with Arc and Seraph these days - because that's a level of commitment that gets me undocked and shooting at least once a week without dominating my life.
I'm aware that my PvP record is pretty non-existent this year - maybe that means I'm no longer space relevant. I dunno!
John is totally right about the problems with combining IC and OOC players within the same Corp, though. You wind up with about three RPers in a Corp of 30 to 50 pilots. Those pilots shoot what they want. Fac War corps actually have it easiest - because that structure at least ensures that the Corps non-RPers don't shoot the faction that they're putatively loyal to.
As to where the fracture lies between those who like pew with their RP and those who don't? I'd say it's the non-consensual nature of in-space RP. It's non-negotiable and it doesn't matter what sort of in-character role you've parleyed for yourself if you can't back it up with assets on the board when the faeces strikes the oscillating device. Sir Isaac Newton still being the deadliest son of a bitch in space and all that.
I think some RPers view it as God Modding. Others use it as a blunt instrument to get their way. It's certainly a polarising issue.
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Interesting topic, good luck motivating more activity!
On the subject of "in space" RP, one thing I noticed about FW is that when you're involved in a fast paced PVP environment that tends to dominate your attention. It was hard for me to pull myself away from non stop opportunities for pew and sit down long enough to get into the mindframe for RP, except for space-bragging on the IGS of course.
Since I've been away for the last year+ I've thought a lot more about the RP side of things. I'm hoping in a month or so after i'm done with finals (disappeared due to law school) I'll be able to do some fun RP stuff. Including space things!
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Since I've been away for the last year+ I've thought a lot more about the RP side of things. I'm hoping in a month or so after i'm done with finals (disappeared due to law school) I'll be able to do some fun RP stuff. Including space things!
Faded Light is recruiting
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John, my fucking sides.
I remember OOC contacts with you to cut down on the loud, annoying and above all not very entertaining internal caldari squabbles that mostly just lead to Diana Kimesque noise on the IGS, explicitly trying to find a way to get people back on the same side of actually engaging in inter-intra-factional (it's a word now, deal with it) RP beyond the aforementioned shouting matches. You told me, IC and OOC, to just kick "pirates" from my corporation and then we may get somewhere. Quite ironical that this is now much easier with that more strict rp focus.
But this is just one example of taking the own RP line too serious and being unable to even consider OOC consensus that over time leads to folks peacing out into their own cycles. Add in a lower population and you get less social individuals connecting these cycles. I get it. We're all playing with different goals and standards in mind, and some prefer to connect everything they do to the game engine, others prefer to just play in channels or even completely separate their IC actions from their EVE actions ('I'm not ICly farming 5000 orcs here').
So, yeah, maybe that lack of OOC desire for co-operative play doesn't make everyone involved happy over time. Just based on some observations and experiences over the last six years or so.
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Faded Light is recruiting
Hah, sorry, dedicated GalFed partisan here. Cool concept though!
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I've noticed, though, that a group can either do things in space or be welcome in RP circles. As someone else pointed out, in order to get the numbers or the quality you need to be really effective in space, you wind up attracting a band of brothers who have very little IC reason to hang together.
Pyre was the ultimate expression of this. Matari rebels. Caldari Corporatists. Gurista. Angels. Blooders. SANSHA.
I don't know, Pieter. Way I see it, there's a world of difference between "IC reasons" and shallow faction stereotypes. If you'd ask the individual pilots involved, rather than pass judgement from the outside, and at least the ones who still cared about RP after being browbeaten time and time again with this kind of bullshit, they'd have at least somewhat coherent stories about how they ended up where they did.
Weren't you there?
I was effectively given the choice of flying with my space friends or participating in RP. I certainly didn't pay my premium to RP in channels, so I wound up a gritty Spaec Merc instead of the Loyalist I always intended Pieter to be.
Congratulations! You've interacted meaningfully with the world, and experienced this thing called "character development" as a result.
If you want to have "arcs" untouched by outside influence, consider writing novels instead.
Several Caldari RPers wound up hoist by our shorts when boisterous ex-Pyre elements decided to show some RPers the back of their hands. Some of the stuff our Spacefriends do just isn't defensible in-character[..]
The formal casus belli was in-character, it was wrapped up in-character, and MITGs in-space actions don't happen in some kind of void separate from consensus reality. They might have been reasons and actions people disagreed with, but seeing the knee-jerk dismissal as "out of character," or, fuck me, "OOC harrassment" has been severely disappointing. (Maybe ask some people what actual OOC harassment looks like.)
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John, my fucking sides.
I remember OOC contacts with you to cut down on the loud, annoying and above all not very entertaining internal caldari squabbles that mostly just lead to Diana Kimesque noise on the IGS, explicitly trying to find a way to get people back on the same side of actually engaging in inter-intra-factional (it's a word now, deal with it) RP beyond the aforementioned shouting matches. You told me, IC and OOC, to just kick "pirates" from my corporation and then we may get somewhere. Quite ironical that this is now much easier with that more strict rp focus.
But this is just one example of taking the own RP line too serious and being unable to even consider OOC consensus that over time leads to folks peacing out into their own cycles. Add in a lower population and you get less social individuals connecting these cycles. I get it. We're all playing with different goals and standards in mind, and some prefer to connect everything they do to the game engine, others prefer to just play in channels or even completely separate their IC actions from their EVE actions ('I'm not ICly farming 5000 orcs here').
So, yeah, maybe that lack of OOC desire for co-operative play doesn't make everyone involved happy over time. Just based on some observations and experiences over the last six years or so.
I'm not sure why you're taking offense (or maybe I'm misreading the response). I did on several occasions refuse to involve myself or I-RED in diplomatic meetings with PYRE for IC reasons. Everyone has their own RP styles, some like me view actions in space as IC (This is something some of us will have to agree to disagree on I'm sure). OOC cooperation is fine and should be welcomed, though it shouldn't change how a person would react ICly. If I reacted against cooperative measures OOCly it was likely because I thought it had the possibility to change my IC decision.
In all honesty there shouldn't be OOC grudges because of IC actions or words. Over the past few years I've learned to let them go, because I had a few just like everyone else does.
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WALL OF TEXT INBOUND, FC WHAT DO
As it comes to roleplay and EVE, there are many issues that follow the gameplay mechanics of the game, the implied gameplay mechanics of the game, and many things that need to be reliably handwaved in order to contain consistency between those two things properly. As writers, it is our job to, as we roleplay, weave a story that follows along the characters in question in addition to being mindful of the other characters that are included within this story, friend or foe alike.
The consideration for furthering the community of writers must be remembered, as well! This falls, I feel, firmly into the EVE concept of "content creation." Everyone supposedly loves content creators, they love finding content for themselves, all sorts of these things. With the actual gameplay, content is unlimited (even if repetitive, most of the time) and can always be found. There is always a site to warp to, there is always an item to purchase, there is always a fit to imagine up. This is always true.
However, with regards to roleplay, there is none that naturally exists within the EVE universe. All roleplay is a product of the players involved; there is a reason market bots don't shittalk in local chat while they 0.01 everyone. Channels are made, channels are populated, people reside in them and RP all sorts of physical, verbal, implant-based scenes here and there, and that's fine, that's dandy. It's like a MUD, almost, most of the time.
So where am I going with this obnoxiously horrific text wall worthy of the IGS? Buckle up, fucker, you'll find out soon.
The intermingling of these two concepts proves a problem. There are players who swear on complete orthodoxy; that everything that happens in space happens ICly and that Prime Lore is the Absolute Truth, and anything that deviates too obviously from the concepts provided thusly is an invalid way of interpreting roleplay. In addition, there is another type of "orthodoxy," as well: that EVE, at its absolute core, is specifically nothing more than a game, and as such, the consequences of all actions within EVE are meaningless due to the fact that EVE is Not Real, I Was Not There.
Which is fucking ass. Entirely fucking ass. There's an inherent fucking responsibility that aligns with the actions one takes both in roleplay and in OOC action, and it's beyond frustrating that RP groups are completely blown off because their players inadvertantly either do not fly or have inadequate fliers. This happens many people in every faction (oohoho, one man corp! OH HO HO, your KB is red! you mine all day!) and it is one of the many fucking reasons the Caldari block, among most, is dead as shit. Why? Because almost every person who tries to be Cal Loyal and not be filtered straight into the XBOX HEUG Caldari corps / Merc corps, or are ignored because they have not the punch that's required to just trash other people in space.
(Because, apparently, if you don't have power projection, you may as well just fucking die.)
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that leeway needs to be given and if you (non-specific third person plural) are in a position of power, it's your responsibility as one who lives within the roleplay environment to not disenfranchise those without as much power, or any at all. This same shit happens in FW space, too. Powerful groups need to let the smaller groups flourish for furthered content or else you end up with shit like what happens now.
words words words
I feel like if you spoke in a way that was not inherently condescending, you'd be able to reach a wider audience with your ideas.
edit -- took out specific names 'cuz I don't want to accidentally start somethin
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I will continue to point out that MITG as a whole is about as far from a 'Caldari' group as is possible.
There are Caldari members, but there's certainly no concerted effort to recruit Caldari roleplayers.
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I will continue to point out that MITG as a whole is about as far from a 'Caldari' group as is possible.
There are Caldari members, but there's certainly no concerted effort to recruit Caldari roleplayers.
Very true. There's a habit of many ending up there, though, from what I've seen. Maybe that's just a hold-over from PYRE exodus?
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Or maybe we offer content beyond textboxes.
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Speaking on the point of what Charles said regarding smaller groups, I have to agree that they should be cherished. Many of the serious roleplayers that compose stories quite well, I've found, lie in smaller organizations. My opinion is based on I suppose a "first impression" of the community; I've had more welcome and open arms as a new player from smaller groups than large ones.
This isn't the say that larger groups are necessarily bad, of course. Forgive me for plugging in the Alliance I'm a part of (IRED). But I know we try to create content as well. It's just a matter of if people actually take part in it or not.
Overall, my opinion really isn't worth that much in this discussion, but I did at least want to point out that smaller organizations are, in my opinion, precious.
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Overall, my opinion really isn't worth that much in this discussion, but I did at least want to point out that smaller organizations are, in my opinion, precious.
What makes your opinion worth less than anyone else's?
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Being new and much less knowledgeable of factors that may have influenced people's own opinions. It could be said that I have a very naive view on the roleplay community here.
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The biggest thing you (the collective "you") can do to kickstart Caldari RP is to do things out in space. Obviously, I'm trying a new approach with Faded Light, and you have the traditional FacWar loyalist corps and organizations out there. Apart from I-RED, in whatever state it's currently in, and the Heiian Conglomerate, I'm not really sure what other groups there are out there that serve to draw people interested in Caldari RP into their fold. Arataka, perhaps? Depends on whether Makoto and co. view it more as a Caldari or multinational group, I guess.
To that end, engage with each other on the forums, in-game, and try to bring fresh blood into the fold. Don't be an asshole to the new people, don't hit them with a wall of lore and tell them to "memorize it by Saturday"... just be flexible, make RP fun for them, and do things in space. Do this, and I'll bet that good things will come from it.
This pretty much the "recipe" for SFRIM. Hope to see more Caldari rpers and good luck!
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Being new and much less knowledgeable of factors that may have influenced people's own opinions. It could be said that I have a very naive view on the roleplay community here.
I've been here for a few years and I still feel like "the new guy." I wouldn't worry about it.
Your opinion is just as valid, if not more so (in my eyes), for this specific argument. As someone new to the community, you personally went through the processes of becoming acclimated and introduced to the lore, the RP, and the Caldari bloc more recently than anyone else here. What you went through and how is absolutely relevant information.
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Here is another perspective for you guys:
I am a pvper, I always have been. From day 1 newbie I was overly aggressive and now I absolutely am at the top of the 'e-peen' pile in PL with my Nyx and all my Theraboi/wilderness friends and knowledge of the game and shit.
Like I have literally won every single 1v1 or even 1v3 I started or finished by some IC actions over the years. Aya is virtually unchallenged by anyone anymore because either people got tired of arguing the same shit (hurr ur not a kameira) or I went out in space and killed them, or mostly because people generally came around to accepting her as a character.
Guess what? I am not living in some candy land place where I have ultimate authority and get all the RP I want because I main a pvp char. There isn't some special victory and for the overwhelming majority of the "totally awesome killing in space because of RP reasons" the people involved quit or just didn't care.
All RP circles are quiet and 'dead' or dying. It is because there is a small population of us playing this game. We have old drama and factional reasons to not speak with each other or interact, we all have real lives and live in different timezones.
Being able to pvp never seemed to win me any RP at all, just win me fewer people who dared to speak up and speak out against my character.
From an IC or eve is a pvp game perspective: I won a long time ago. No one has called Aya a liar in years, very few people dare to insult her or talk shit around her, very few people will come at her to start new drama.
But in Roleplay all those things are content. If I play a contentious or maybe even villainous character and no one is willing to argue with me or hate me anymore then I am just as starved of interactions.
There isn't a lot of focus to my rants, there never is especially as my mind has gone more these last few years but I guess I am just trying to say that PvP is not related in any way I can see to the state or RP one way or the other.
If people who don't want to PvP feel that they can't rp and people who pvp feel like they can't rp because no one wants to with them, then isn't really just the problem people not wanting to rp? Honestly I think CC's point on page 1 was best: eve lore has a huge learning curve. I know I got into a lot of drama and felt ostracized when older players rpers were 'shitting' on my rp because I didn't know all the information.
I know that as someone now 4 years deep into rp that its super fucking difficult to rp with people who don't know the lore well enough. The change in perspective never solved the actual problem though.
This is another tangent but, I just think the problems with RP are tied to RP and the physical limitations of a small population roleplaying divisive factions and the expected rl feelings people catch and not the influence of pvp one way or another.
The point can be made that I don't have to work as hard IC to convince someone of the reality of my character and immerse them in *my* story if I can just fly to their space and kill them and immerse them that way?
I just really don't think things are any greener on the pvp in space killer side for roleplay.
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Absolutely right, Aya. I still remember trying to celebrate my thousandth kill in the IGS, expecting the announcement to cause drama and contention (content) with Amarr and Caldari celebrating with me and Gallente and Matari being all stern about it.
The response was apathy or a very muted reaction. The RP crowd don't like to talk about PvP, is my experience.
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Obviously you aren't talking to Maria, Pieter *she pouts* :(
More seriously, I've seen rps related to PVP....
One of my favorite all time scenes remains the chat and in space roleplay where luna escaped a pirate gang in a failed bash on a Sansha POS (glances innocently at ValDLM) and was hole up in a station where vincent pryce ran into her, Luna pretended there was nothing wrong while the pirates smack talked in local trying to wait her out (like she's normally be found in a dive bar in the middle of low sec) until she caved and Vincent helped her escape by escorting her battlecruiser out of low sec to high sec.
I've seen memorial services or bar commiseration due to ganks or hard losses. Luna has a cemetary where those crews who were recovered from wrecks or in a damage ship when it returns to dock are buried.
I've seen small gang or bash celebrations (or mourning!) after particularly memorable space fights (including local rps in the course of them) .
PIE routinely rps in local with rpers and confused non-rp community recipients, some whom end up getting into the spirit of things!
Both luna and maria will roleplay the aftermath of being podded and the spiritual emotional tangles that can be involved (especially if it is among the first times). Even though Maria gets podded more routinely, she generally changes hair/appearance to reflect a new clone.
Dunno.. guess my experience is different?
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You're like me, though, Luna - a PvP'er that RPs. I meant that there's a seriously huge number of RP'ers that do not.
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I don't think PVP should be the only in space activity that matters to RP. It's probably the most exciting. One of my characters is an Ammatar geologist, guess what she does in space? I've had fun in the past with IC mission running fleets or even just sightseeing trips to New Eden "landmarks". I think anything done in game can give your character something to talk about and interact with other characters about. In my own case look at all the drama and rp that resulted from a poorly handled informal courier contract.
If anything I RP crowd that does not PVP, or the RPers who don't undock are looked down upon those of us who do things in space.
Trying to get back on topic: Is Heiian College active at all? Is there an alternative channel similar to "The Good Word" for Caldari business? As an Amarr RPer I've found it easier to RP with Gallente and Minmatar than my factional allies because they have (or had) channels to communicate in.
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Pieter,
I definitely know what you're talking about with mixed reactions from RPers to PVP content. One of the most fun RP/PVP events I ever did in FW was organizing a campaign to retake the Ladistier system for the FDU. It was done as a completely in character deal, motivated by the presence of the President Bureau station there and the idea that with it in Caldari hands the surrounding region was cut off from effective representation in government.
The reaction to it on the IGS was less than awesome.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=406290
The first response is pretty much the definition of OOC trolling, imo... and it keeps going from there. Does Ping Pong exist in New Eden?
The Pendulum War meme has some validity to it, but I really question how far some characters have taken it. Diana Kim's topic on the subject definitely has a point. It strains credulity that actual people living in the setting would be quite so dismissive of the conflict.
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It strains credulity that actual people living in the setting would be quite so dismissive of the conflict.
Normally you would be right, but player characters are capsuleers. We shoot each other with thermonuclear weapons and worse for fun or because we're bored. In my books capsuleers being dismissive of empire wars that go nowhere is nothing but realistic.
As for ping pong, well, we don't know if anything from current earth exists in new eden, but that doesn't stop people from having pet cats and dogs and panthers and eating everyday foods from 20,000+ years ago.
In the same vein calling Gallente frogs is a very OOC insult (because they're french lul), nobody seems to care. I mean I'm sorta on your side here, but it's just easier for everyone to not nitpick all the things you or I feel don't belong in the setting.
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Nah, I appreciate what you're saying. That's why I started out saying that the "Pendulum War" meme is somewhat valid.
I think the RP/PVP tension, and the specific flavor of it that relates to FW, is an example of the good and bad of how people handle OOC/IC. Part of me thinks that the "Pendulum War" idea was actually a really clever way for us to handle the reality of FW's stagnant game mechanics from an IC perspective. The problem is when its overused as a bludgeon to denigrate people for participating in content they enjoy. OOC I'm as frustrated as anyone that FW mechanics are so stagnant, but Rinai can hardly tell someone ICly "hey, fuckoff, you know as well as I do that CCP has been working on nullsec this whole time."
OOCly, the platonic ideal is that everyone who's RPing wants other RPers to have good RP, even the ones they are "opposed to" IC. It gets messy when people, and I'm guilty of this as well, are naturally mixing the metagame of their competitive internet spaceship PVP / propaganda with their IC actions and statements. EVE's cutthroat nature is always there.
Which brings us back to the whole "doing stuff in space" issue, and what Pieter's talking about with some RPers who don't like to talk about, or who even disparage, PVP content.
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Trying to get back on topic: Is Heiian College active at all?
It has a few people lurking in it(like me), but there isn't any conversation.
Eves gameplay doesn't really translate well to RP in my experience. When I was looking for a new corp(with a focus toward RP corps) I checked their killboards as part of considering them. Pvp is an important aspect of the game for me, and even if a corp looks nice from an RP perspective I can't really just accept that I'd have to solo a lot(I'm bad at solo, from my limited experience with it) or find other groups to run around shooting things with. I ended up with Alexylva Paradox because pvp is a main aspect of WH life(I also wanted to move into wormholes) and there's an RP connection. I never ended up getting into any corp related RP but the people are nice so that's good.
The RP communities relationship with pvp is mixed, at best. I'm not a huge fan of the unfortunately common "your argument is invalid because the ships you destroy have crews!" thing. It makes it difficult for me to RP because I have to choose between my character being a massive hypocrite or an unrepentant psychopath. The expectation of being IC 100% of the time in space is a harsh one to say the least and I feel like it punishes pvpers. Why does Aradina gank that random explorer? "Protecting Origin" is a good hand-wave, since that's a large part of the OOC reason. Intel is valuable in WH so that 3 day old character could be a seed, and should be removed via Caldari Navy Antimatter, but the other part of the OOC reason is simply that I want killmarks on my raptor. Aradina doesn't hunt down some random for the sake of it, but I do because I want to ruin the game for other people apparently enjoy hunting stuff.
Considering the low population, trying to limit RP groups to corps feels like a poor plan. Everyone just makes their own with blackjack and a copy of Source. The same is true of channels too, and no one wants to be in a million different channels just to find RP. The big world mixed with very limited direct in-game interactions makes RP difficult. I don't really have any solutions to this problem beyond "obtain more roleplayers".
I was cooking food while writing this and adding stuff between checking on that, so if it seems rambling and pointless that would be why. Blame food. I promise I had a point.
Walking in stations would of course fix everything and make us all happy no I don't overuse strikethrough why do you say that.
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I so hear you.
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This is a very interesting thread for a new player like me to read, thank you.
I'm hoping to learn to be a PvPer (since my primary motivation is to enjoy the game) and the choices I have to make to do this and develop a character I can RP with (which is a big part of a MMORPG for me) are difficult. My first attempt felt rather shot down on the IGS when my choice of learning corp (Pandemic Horde) was rather ridiculed when I tried to open my character's story there. (I've since learned that the IGS is perhaps not the best place for such beginnings, but it is the first place new players to the game look if they are interested in RP).
Since RL is not very predictable for the next couple of months, I have determined to a bit of faction war as it sits the character and, though I will get blown up a lot, should give some PvP learning too. The points raised in this thread about the characterisation of FW as the Pendulum War (and in a current IGS thread, even worse as the Toy War) underline my experience - that as a new player, it all feels really difficult to establish even a foothold with the more experienced people. Instead of being an interesting hook for someone like me to develop an in game backstory, it's made out by veterans as pointless, stupid and participants made to look a bit foolish.
I know the FW mechanics are supposed to be flawed, and of course long time players will feel annoyed, if not burnt out by the apparent futility, but all this makes getting into RP without being totally clued up on the lore and past interactions extremely daunting.
I'm sure you all have have seen this perspective before, and I don't want to seem whiny. I'll find a way, I'm sure, especially since people here have been so helpful. :)
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IGS can be a pretty rough place for a new character. I would recommend the in-game channels (such as the one mentioned in the OP). There are channels that are fairly faction neutral such as The Summit and the IGS in-game channel (not sure of the exact spelling used). There are also IC and OOC channels that are geared more toward the various factions. Those could be great places for a new RPer to bounce their ideas around and get to know other RPers as well.
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Bitter vets be bitter vetting is about what sums up a lot of the noise over facwar. I can freely admit to having engaged in some frustrated posting to the same affect after my own experience, but I've mostly just been trying to keep my head down while I consider my future options.
It's a bit of a cycle you see, as people burn out a vacuum is needed to be filled, but the hangers on tend to do most of their interfactional RP interaction on the IGS. It all leads to lots of shouty, wordy threads, full of good points to an older player, but pretty hostile to someone new.
My advice? Get your chops wet with the game, have fun and don't sweat about trying to make an impact or be noticed in RP. Just put your content and IC opinions out there in a natural fashion and keep plodding along till you find the rythme and style that suits you (and your character). Listen to feedback and reply to IGS posts as you like, but take it for what it is. Grumbly veterans grumbling.
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IGS is a very daunting and dare I say hostile place for genuinely new players. And yes, large PvP alliances have a bad rep among roleplayers, and typically for a reason (e.g. large scale harassment on/of RP channels). EVE is not the only game where this is true though, roleplayers are often treated with derision in almost any MMO by the "real players" (even though I've met very few people who do nothing but roleplay in MMO's, almost all PvP or PvE like everyone else). I remember RP-PvP realms in WoW being exceptionally bad about this in the past. Anyway, that is not to say there can't be some very good people in these groups - Ayallah, Arrendis come to mind first - but someone in such a group will have to work harder to prove themselves not a troll. I'm not saying it's fair, mind you.
As for the derision of Faction Warfare - again, IMO even in character it should be kind of a bad joke by now. It has gone on for years without anything resulting from it but tens of millions of lives lost, tying up resources and ruining economies of the planets in such zones, which probably weren't too robust to begin with. It honestly serves no sensible purpose other than to keep capsuleers busy, as it has often been called out for. In the more recent developments factions have again grown a bit warmer towards each other, the Sanmatar was invited to the Empress' coronation and he attended, without a huge fleet to protect him which shows more trust than just courtesy. The new Empress is expected to be also more inclined for peaceful relations, altough time will tell.
Out of character it is, to my understanding considered a PvP training ground for larger scale fleets and ops and indeed a good choice to cut ones teeth in terms of PvP if one is not ready to jump off in the deep end right away.
I know it also attracts budding roleplayers for visibility and ease of access reasons, and conflict is one of the more exciting and "easier" things to RP out, but it isn't the only way to get in to RP. When I started, FacWar was one of those things on CCP's Soon™ lists. What got me into RP was the backstory itself - four different, distinct human civilizations with no clue about their ancestry, 21,338 years in the future? Imagine the possibilities!
I don't mean to deride those who wish to RP and do FW, at all. It is as perfectly valid way to play as any. But I think it is also unreasonable to expect that those who have noticed how futile it is to not say anything about it. People have opinions, and different viewpoints. If someone thinks CONCORD Emergency Militia War Powers Act is still serving its purpose, and another thinks its just a load of hooey, neither of them is really wrong.
And to say once again - if a game has a lot of history, it is always daunting to jump in as a new player. I had the same feeling with WoW, and if I were to jump on board with EVE now, I'm sure i'd have the same with it too. Heck, I find EVE's RP scene daunting still even though I've been here for what, 11 years now?
What can I say to new players but to tough it out, don't rush it, get into it at your own leisure and pace that feels right for you. And have fun! There's loads of room for "silly" RP if you need a break from posturing.
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Loved the post Teinyhr!
I think you bring up a really good point. Yes, some of the angst against FacWar is bitter-vet in nature, but some of it is also us trying to make in-character sense of an OOC game design phenomenon.
Because we are trying so hard to find a way to IC rationalize the management decisions of CCP, who have found their efforts better spent outside of FacWar, many of us are left with little other than "pointless war" as an explanation for what is really just a damn tricky game design situation. I've spent a lot of time lately trying to find in game/in cannon reasons for programmer decisions and I just don't want people to just assume that a character's disillusionment with the FacWar is bittervetting. Also, many 'bitter vets' are trying to rationalize their characters too. Those that have stayed in Fac war, with the same character, all this time tend to play rather static characters who 'have always been here' because that's part of aligning a character's story with the stagnant FacWar realities. My character's opinions of the war are heavily clouded by my decision to try to place Origin, story wise, and a refuge from the wars (and from mainline faction ideologies). I play Xeph as more opposed to those wars because they provide a foil for what we try to do in Origin. Origin isn't exactly perfection, but as long as Xeph keeps using the 'horrors' of the FacWars as one of the other alternatives.... Xeph gets to be a hero of his story and not a villain. (Though, I have no trouble with some seeing Xeph as a villain either.)
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In my experience there are the concepts that are lore based and pretty much universally accepted and the ones that regardless of popularity are still just player consensus. The "Pendulum War" perspective is the latter. The faction wars exist. What is the reasoning behind them, how are they viewed in universe, is up to you to decide. Obviously it's a good idea to be aware what that consensus opinion is so you are ready to rp with it but don't let it dissuade you from concocting your own take. I flew in two war zones for years and have my own perspective on the conflict. Feel free to hit me up in game.
Most of all the best advice I can give is do something you find fun and figure out the rationale later. It is rarely all that difficult to cook up a story to explain whatever ooc choices you need to make.
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This is all wonderful advice. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts and experience.
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The IGS pvp is real. I definitely enjoy it for the most part, and have participated off and on for years. It can be really fun when there's a big CCP event in game, or when players come up with their own content that sparks a genuine debate. My favorite period on the IGS, speaking of Caldari RP, was the prelude to the Battle of Caldari Prime and Heth's downfall.
I remember the whole "audit" of Wyrkomi Honor Guard / the formation of PY-RE was a really fun topic where the Caldari players got to RP "nothing to see here, normal corporate stuff" and other players were like "Uh, wut? Looks pretty fascist to us!" I-RED's various efforts in Syndicate were also good opportunities for them to RP "see! good Caldari good economic development!" and other people to be appropriately skeptical about what was happening to "undesirable elements" or whatever.
That and the typical squabbling about how terrible the other guy's faction is in the news of the day is mostly good fun.
What's annoying is when people do a thing and the response is basically "you're shit, and your playstyle is shit" which is what a lot of the FW hostility amounts to.
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Some work has been completed in regards to the Heiian Institute. We're wrapping up the charter for the project and have begun setting up the guidelines for the Heiian Committee. The Committee will encompass the major political blocs, acting as the main body overseeing/endorsing projects and push for the completion of the society goals, while promoting Caldari ideals and culture.
All-in-all it will act along the same lines as the Society of past, with a few iterations to bring some more cooperative (or uncooperative) factionalism.
Another interesting project in the works for the Heiian Institute is the Heiian Event Consortium [HEC]. Which would conduct small scale combative events, while creating a updated roster of pilots and ranking system.
I'm sure much of the details will be released in the coming days.
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I'm gonna necro this thread to point out that actual RP doesn't seem to have actually happened out of this initiative. I'm still RPing in the same, small, circles that I have been for years - barring the new Drifter stuff.
How do we defeat the problem of Caldari RP tending to happen within certain corporate or political silos?
I'm sure given the military ethos of the State there would be some adherence to the old Navy Wardroom rules of: No sex, No politics, No religion can apply as regards discussion and interaction.
I remember some RP with you a few months back during Lunarisse Aspenstar's wedding and it's how I imagined how Caldari are among themselves: Lots of joking banter, subtle and not so subtle taking the piss out of themselves, the situation, and the damn foreigners etc.
Just looking at Caldari as normal human beings I'm not sure why all discussion has to be driven by SUPER IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT SPACE POLITICS IN SPACE. Sure there's a time and place for it, but sometimes you've just got to hang back and be able to talk about non-serious topics if and when they arise. Unless you want to be that guy who just talks about politics all day when everyone just wants to drink beers and watch the competitive Splinterz matches.
That and while for me, sure, there's probably significant and different ways the Caldari Megas each try to define themselves as the One True Caldari as regards how they sell media and historical narratives to their citizens, the net result of that to me is just creating a situation akin to astrology among State citizens:
Oh, you're from Kaalakiota you must be a really stubborn, imperious, and pragmatic kind of person.
Oh, you're from Wiyrkomi you must be a staunch traditionalist with strong family values.
Oh, you're from SuVee you must be a really ruthless and capricious kind of person.
And those stereotypes will likely vary from the different viewpoints of which Mega your character came from.
As for it being a case of: Oh no you're not from MY Megacorp I can literally never talk to you now? I don't think so.
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How do we defeat the problem of Caldari RP tending to happen within certain corporate or political silos?
I'm sure given the military ethos of the State there would be some adherence to the old Navy Wardroom rules of: No sex, No politics, No religion can apply as regards discussion and interaction.
I remember some RP with you a few months back during Lunarisse Aspenstar's wedding and it's how I imagined how Caldari are among themselves: Lots of joking banter, subtle and not so subtle taking the piss out of themselves, the situation, and the damn foreigners etc.
It will have to be something like that, I feel. With old loyalist corporations fading, faction warfare moribund, and in-game events and fiction not offering much in the way of hooks beyond news articles to smart-arse about on the IGS, there's not a lot of meat on the bones of loyalism these days.
There's plenty of Caldari characters around, though. Wherever they grew up or whichever mega they're still carrying a torch for, there'll be some common ground, or shared experiences and ideals, or at least the vague idea that they should have some things in common with other Caldari.
I'm not particularly fond of BarP, but the lowest common denominator is still a common denominator, so I say try to give a single, physical venue our blessing as the hotspot for Caldari RP. The Gariushi Lounge, wherever, as long as it's a location; I think Heiian College and Institute's aims are admirable, but as discussion channels for an abstract topic, are doomed to be relatively infertile.
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There's plenty of Caldari characters around, though. Wherever they grew up or whichever mega they're still carrying a torch for, there'll be some common ground, or shared experiences and ideals, or at least the vague idea that they should have some things in common with other Caldari.
I don't disagree, but I'll probably just cede the floor to the majority of Caldari interpretations with the deeply ingrained Japanophile/Anime translations of the State. Only a matter of time before all the Zaibatsu starts getting thrown around like vertically integrated companies were somehow invented in Japan and not with the big Steel/Oil monopolies in the late 19th century US before they got broken up by anti-trust laws or the fact that the biggest vertically integrated companies today -- Apple and Google -- have sweet fuck all to do with Japan.
Either that or some transliteration of Heiian with Bushido mastery of the blade while ignoring that the Samurai were quite fond of oppressing the shit out of rice farming peasants so they could afford all their fancy gear while finding any excuse to go ahead and put their training to use by killing each other at every opportunity.