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[Pieter Tuulinen]

I've noticed, though, that a group can either do things in space or be welcome in RP circles. As someone else pointed out, in order to get the numbers or the quality you need to be really effective in space, you wind up attracting a band of brothers who have very little IC reason to hang together.

Pyre was the ultimate expression of this. Matari rebels. Caldari Corporatists. Gurista. Angels. Blooders. SANSHA.

I was effectively given the choice of flying with my space friends or participating in RP. I certainly didn't pay my premium to RP in channels, so I wound up a gritty Spaec Merc instead of the Loyalist I always intended Pieter to be.

Loyalist groups tend to be tiny and therefore not terribly effective in space. Effective groups wind up being mostly non-RPers with a hardcore of RPers. Witness Morlag spluttering and scrambling because her non-IC spacefriends decided to try and kill the Empress!

Several Caldari RPers wound up hoist by our shorts when boisterous ex-Pyre elements decided to show some RPers the back of their hands. Some of the stuff  our Spacefriends do just isn't defensible in-character, and some of the RP community relishes this infighting and likes to put the boot in there, instead.

Maybe the key is to start RP alts? I dunno. Does anybody manage to successfully RP anything other than a gangster thug while doing things in space?

[Sakura Nihil]

I'll toss another possibility out there - bring in non-RP people, and convert them into RPers.

Before you toss a frying pan at me for the suggestion, I'd like to point out that for the first year or two of my EVE career I was definitely not an RPer.  But I joined the Star Fraction because it was a place to get cheap ships, and fight good uphill battles, and over time I tried it out and enjoyed it.  In short, it was a gateway corporation, and now I'll probably be RP4Lyfe (that was bad, I know!) .

But everyone in EVE loves a good story.  And many people might be up for RPing their character into the story, and just don't know it yet.  In short - stop treating EVE RP like a zero-sum game, in my opinion.  Try and grow the RP base, and bring on people who are up for it.  Prime reason why Faded Light's RP-only (albeit light), so that there's no inherent RP/non-RP divide internally.  I've seen what happens when that divide exists, the non-RPers grow faster than the RP segment of the corp, and eventually dominate it (see also: Stimulus).

[John Revenent]

The Heiian College kinda fell flat, mostly because the others who were involved have been dragged off due to RL. I've managed to write up the foundation and several projects, made attempts to outreach to the Caldari RPers for help with making the project cohesive but it never happened.

That said, I'm still puttering away with the initiative but one man is still one man.

As for the non-RPers turning into RPers, this was I-RED's goal throughout my Executorship. I-RED in its current state has turned to a more RP centric organization that can still continue the operations I once put forth by using IC means such as hiring mercenaries like RDC/404/Akagi to name a few. Does it make them 'weak', sure. Do they have fun running a corporate atmosphere and still do space-relevant things? I think they do. Some people like heavy RP and commit to the consequences actions or affiliations may have, thats their right. The otherside has the same right though they can't handwave it to everyone. Specifically groups like I-RED, ILF and PIE (Who try to adhere to the lore as much as possible to keep their status as full on loyalists).

[Olga_Drottning]

Does anybody manage to successfully RP anything other than a gangster thug while doing things in space?

I've done a bit of anti ganking, as an in character activity. It's been surprisingly successful, and it gives me something to wave around and say "look what I did". Ultimately it's not really made me space relevant, but I get killmails and Dodixie was a slightly better place for a few days. I should get back to it when I have time.

People in space is good. I don't know why there seems to be this perceived negativity when talking about the "in space" side of RP. Maybe there's some history there to be put to bed.

[Teinyhr]

People in space is good. I don't know why there seems to be this perceived negativity when talking about the "in space" side of RP. Maybe there's some history there to be put to bed.

Negativity I'd guess comes from an age old source - rather strikingly elitist attitudes that some of the people who do it shove on people who don't. I remember seeing a discussion where a newbie roleplayer was practically shat on for trying to help slaves, because he didn't "physically" go free (read:buy) slaves from Amarr space and fly them to Minmatar space. I could hardly believe what I was seeing.

As for why "in space RP" is also hard is that it requires IMO quite a bit of creativity and imagination since our ways of interacting with the game world is quite limited - mainly we can just blow stuff up, go somewhere and probe stuff out (and blow stuff up there), and that's about it. That is not to say you can't do anything, yet another thing I remember was seeing people go survey Arzad II, one of those people being of Starkman descent. There was a thread on it on IGS when said Starkman character was shot down in orbit by was it some PIE -pilot.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I'm not sure how much you have to do to be 'relevant' in space. Pieter does mostly Anti-Drifter ops with Arc and Seraph these days - because that's a level of commitment that gets me undocked and shooting at least once a week without dominating my life.

I'm aware that my PvP record is pretty non-existent this year - maybe that means I'm no longer space relevant. I dunno!

John is totally right about the problems with combining IC and OOC players within the same Corp, though. You wind up with about three RPers in a Corp of 30 to 50 pilots. Those pilots shoot what they want. Fac War corps actually have it easiest - because that structure at least ensures that the Corps non-RPers don't shoot the faction that they're putatively loyal to.

As to where the fracture lies between those who like pew with their RP and those who don't? I'd say it's the non-consensual nature of in-space RP. It's non-negotiable and it doesn't matter what sort of in-character role you've parleyed for yourself if you can't back it up with assets on the board when the faeces strikes the oscillating device. Sir Isaac Newton still being the deadliest son of a bitch in space and all that.

I think some RPers view it as God Modding. Others use it as a blunt instrument to get their way. It's certainly a polarising issue.

[Rinai Vero]

Interesting topic, good luck motivating more activity!

On the subject of "in space" RP, one thing I noticed about FW is that when you're involved in a fast paced PVP environment that tends to dominate your attention.  It was hard for me to pull myself away from non stop opportunities for pew and sit down long enough to get into the mindframe for RP, except for space-bragging on the IGS of course.

Since I've been away for the last year+ I've thought a lot more about the RP side of things.  I'm hoping in a month or so after i'm done with finals (disappeared due to law school) I'll be able to do some fun RP stuff.  Including space things!

[Sakura Nihil]

Since I've been away for the last year+ I've thought a lot more about the RP side of things.  I'm hoping in a month or so after i'm done with finals (disappeared due to law school) I'll be able to do some fun RP stuff.  Including space things!

Faded Light is recruiting

[The Rook]

John, my fucking sides.
I remember OOC contacts with you to cut down on the loud, annoying and above all not very entertaining internal caldari squabbles that mostly just lead to Diana Kimesque noise on the IGS, explicitly trying to find a way to get people back on the same side of actually engaging in inter-intra-factional (it's a word now, deal with it) RP beyond the aforementioned shouting matches. You told me, IC and OOC, to just kick "pirates" from my corporation and then we may get somewhere. Quite ironical that this is now much easier with that more strict rp focus.

But this is just one example of taking the own RP line too serious and being unable to even consider OOC consensus that over time leads to folks peacing out into their own cycles. Add in a lower population and you get less social individuals connecting these cycles. I get it. We're all playing with different goals and standards in mind, and some prefer to connect everything they do to the game engine, others prefer to just play in channels or even completely separate their IC actions from their EVE actions ('I'm not ICly farming 5000 orcs here').

So, yeah, maybe that lack of OOC desire for co-operative play doesn't make everyone involved happy over time. Just based on some observations and experiences over the last six years or so.

[Rinai Vero]

Faded Light is recruiting

Hah, sorry, dedicated GalFed partisan here.  Cool concept though!

[Jev North]

I've noticed, though, that a group can either do things in space or be welcome in RP circles. As someone else pointed out, in order to get the numbers or the quality you need to be really effective in space, you wind up attracting a band of brothers who have very little IC reason to hang together.

Pyre was the ultimate expression of this. Matari rebels. Caldari Corporatists. Gurista. Angels. Blooders. SANSHA.

I don't know, Pieter. Way I see it, there's a world of difference between "IC reasons" and shallow faction stereotypes. If you'd ask the individual pilots involved, rather than pass judgement from the outside, and at least the ones who still cared about RP after being browbeaten time and time again with this kind of bullshit, they'd have at least somewhat coherent stories about how they ended up where they did.

Weren't you there?

I was effectively given the choice of flying with my space friends or participating in RP. I certainly didn't pay my premium to RP in channels, so I wound up a gritty Spaec Merc instead of the Loyalist I always intended Pieter to be.

Congratulations! You've interacted meaningfully with the world, and experienced this thing called "character development" as a result.

If you want to have "arcs" untouched by outside influence, consider writing novels instead.

Several Caldari RPers wound up hoist by our shorts when boisterous ex-Pyre elements decided to show some RPers the back of their hands. Some of the stuff  our Spacefriends do just isn't defensible in-character[..]

The formal casus belli was in-character, it was wrapped up in-character, and MITGs in-space actions don't happen in some kind of void separate from consensus reality. They might have been reasons and actions people disagreed with, but seeing the knee-jerk dismissal as "out of character," or, fuck me, "OOC harrassment" has been severely disappointing. (Maybe ask some people what actual OOC harassment looks like.)

[John Revenent]

John, my fucking sides.
I remember OOC contacts with you to cut down on the loud, annoying and above all not very entertaining internal caldari squabbles that mostly just lead to Diana Kimesque noise on the IGS, explicitly trying to find a way to get people back on the same side of actually engaging in inter-intra-factional (it's a word now, deal with it) RP beyond the aforementioned shouting matches. You told me, IC and OOC, to just kick "pirates" from my corporation and then we may get somewhere. Quite ironical that this is now much easier with that more strict rp focus.

But this is just one example of taking the own RP line too serious and being unable to even consider OOC consensus that over time leads to folks peacing out into their own cycles. Add in a lower population and you get less social individuals connecting these cycles. I get it. We're all playing with different goals and standards in mind, and some prefer to connect everything they do to the game engine, others prefer to just play in channels or even completely separate their IC actions from their EVE actions ('I'm not ICly farming 5000 orcs here').

So, yeah, maybe that lack of OOC desire for co-operative play doesn't make everyone involved happy over time. Just based on some observations and experiences over the last six years or so.

I'm not sure why you're taking offense (or maybe I'm misreading the response). I did on several occasions refuse to involve myself or I-RED in diplomatic meetings with PYRE for IC reasons. Everyone has their own RP styles, some like me view actions in space as IC (This is something some of us will have to agree to disagree on I'm sure). OOC cooperation is fine and should be welcomed, though it shouldn't change how a person would react ICly. If I reacted against cooperative measures OOCly it was likely because I thought it had the possibility to change my IC decision.

In all honesty there shouldn't be OOC grudges because of IC actions or words. Over the past few years I've learned to let them go, because I had a few just like everyone else does.

[Charles Cambridge Schmidt]

          WALL OF TEXT INBOUND, FC WHAT DO

As it comes to roleplay and EVE, there are many issues that follow the gameplay mechanics of the game, the implied gameplay mechanics of the game, and many things that need to be reliably handwaved in order to contain consistency between those two things properly. As writers, it is our job to, as we roleplay, weave a story that follows along the characters in question in addition to being mindful of the other characters that are included within this story, friend or foe alike.

The consideration for furthering the community of writers must be remembered, as well! This falls, I feel, firmly into the EVE concept of "content creation." Everyone supposedly loves content creators, they love finding content for themselves, all sorts of these things. With the actual gameplay, content is unlimited (even if repetitive, most of the time) and can always be found. There is always a site to warp to, there is always an item to purchase, there is always a fit to imagine up.  This is always true.

However, with regards to roleplay, there is none that naturally exists within the EVE universe. All roleplay is a product of the players involved; there is a reason market bots don't shittalk in local chat while they 0.01 everyone. Channels are made, channels are populated, people reside in them and RP all sorts of physical, verbal, implant-based scenes here and there, and that's fine, that's dandy. It's like a MUD, almost, most of the time.

So where am I going with this obnoxiously horrific text wall worthy of the IGS? Buckle up, fucker, you'll find out soon.

The intermingling of these two concepts proves a problem. There are players who swear on complete orthodoxy; that everything that happens in space happens ICly and that Prime Lore is the Absolute Truth, and anything that deviates too obviously from the concepts provided thusly is an invalid way of interpreting roleplay. In addition, there is another type of "orthodoxy," as well: that EVE, at its absolute core, is specifically nothing more than a game, and as such, the consequences of all actions within EVE are meaningless due to the fact that EVE is Not Real, I Was Not There.

Which is fucking ass. Entirely fucking ass. There's an inherent fucking responsibility that aligns with the actions one takes both in roleplay and in OOC action, and it's beyond frustrating that RP groups are completely blown off because their players inadvertantly either do not fly or have inadequate fliers. This happens many people in every faction (oohoho, one man corp! OH HO HO, your KB is red! you mine all day!) and it is one of the many fucking reasons the Caldari block, among most, is dead as shit. Why? Because almost every person who tries to be Cal Loyal and not be filtered straight into the XBOX HEUG Caldari corps / Merc corps, or are ignored because they have not the punch that's required to just trash other people in space.

(Because, apparently, if you don't have power projection, you may as well just fucking die.)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that leeway needs to be given and if you (non-specific third person plural) are in a position of power, it's your responsibility as one who lives within the roleplay environment to not disenfranchise those without as much power, or any at all. This same shit happens in FW space, too. Powerful groups need to let the smaller groups flourish for furthered content or else you end up with shit like what happens now.

words words words

I feel like if you spoke in a way that was not inherently condescending, you'd be able to reach a wider audience with your ideas.




edit -- took out specific names 'cuz I don't want to accidentally start somethin

[kalaratiri]

I will continue to point out that MITG as a whole is about as far from a 'Caldari' group as is possible.

There are Caldari members, but there's certainly no concerted effort to recruit Caldari roleplayers.

[Charles Cambridge Schmidt]

I will continue to point out that MITG as a whole is about as far from a 'Caldari' group as is possible.

There are Caldari members, but there's certainly no concerted effort to recruit Caldari roleplayers.

Very true. There's a habit of many ending up there, though, from what I've seen. Maybe that's just a hold-over from PYRE exodus?