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That naturalist cafes on space stations go to great lengths to create the illusion that one is not in space? (The Burning Life, p. 62)

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Author Topic: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr  (Read 10814 times)

Graelyn

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My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« on: 01 May 2015, 03:19 »

(This has nothing to do with that other thing involving devs and players. If you think for a moment it does, then you're a dumbdumb, stop it)

It's not often I look for people to disuade me from possibly batshit thinking. So let's do that!

Amarr roleplay has had a few extremely badform moments that people don't notice much anymore, but the doomsaying part of my mind, sometimes seeing patterns that aren't there, perceives a possibility now, and it makes me :grumpyface:

In 2003, BoB/Evolution lost the Amarr Championship to Kor-Azor, resulting in the death of Jamyl. BoB pilots immediately took to their own forums to assure people 'we were supposed to win that, whoops, don't worry, Jamyl has to return'. They said this not as RPers who cared about the lore, but to provide a 'told you so' point to display one of the most prized labels in gaming/mmo's; "We have the script from our friends inside! :D"

As most any player from the time can tell you, BoB never exerted much effort to hide corruption...

The moment Doriam Kor-Azor was assasinated, Istvaan Shogaatsu of Guiding Hand Social Club, a man whose name is literally printed in the original EVE manual due to his contributions to the original lore, just happened to be parading his Imperial Apocalypse around Emperor Academy Station, the only time this has ever happened before or since. He wouldn't answer questions of why he was there, and as news began to come out of what was happening on the surface, he got to "Goodness, how shocking!", and giggle and play coy to his heart's content. He swears to this day he didn't know anything, and was 'just there at random'. No matter what the real case was, everyone who witnessed this (me among them) pinned him with the same label that BoB showed off years before.

Now, I'm watching the Drifter thing get all Ammar-y.
I'm also watching the CFC, (an Alliance that, admittedly among several others, tend to profit greatly by adapting to changes in the game...that haven't happened yet) suddenly get interested in Amarr RP (or at least their own fucky flavor of it).

...

NAH, That's just too fucking much. That would be.....just...no goddamn way.
I mean, I've seen worse (AM's own Mirial used inside knowledge for years to steer 3 entire event ARCS to a desired resolution), but there's no damn way that would fly in the modern post-CSM EVE.

Right?
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 03:30 by Graelyn »
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Lyn Farel

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #1 on: 01 May 2015, 03:30 »

I have never hidden that I want to get rid of zombie uncharismatic Jamyl, but if it's to see her getting assassinated by CFC, or even deposed by Max Singularity, uh... I'm out of Amarr for good.

Sounds a bit alarmist for now though...
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Graelyn

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #2 on: 01 May 2015, 03:31 »

I...agree!

Don't I?

(I've been burned so many many times mummy)
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 03:34 by Graelyn »
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Lyn Farel

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #3 on: 01 May 2015, 03:36 »

On another note I think that a Sarum on the throne is the worst thing that can happen to Amarr in terms of lore opportunities. Not that Sarum is a bad House in itself, but it is a Reclaiming powerhorse. Putting a Sarumite on the throne pretty much equates to antagonize the rest of the cluster, and I don't think the Amarr really need anymore evil shades than it already has.

Not that Jamyl has been especially naughty in that regard, but she is.. er.. special...
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Ollie

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #4 on: 01 May 2015, 04:44 »

As you said Graelyn, I think you're seeing patterns where they probably don't exist based on retrospective linking of at least two unrelated events. Correlation without definitive causation if you like.

I agree that Istvaan's ability to predict the way events will turn is an interesting one but let's look at it objectively:

  • as you've already noted his influence on the original lore of the game is writ large, starting before the game was even in beta if I'm not wrong.
  • He spends - or at least at one point spent - a lot of time reading and thinking about the lore which means he's probably had a while to come up with all sorts of tin-foil hattery and some more accurate theory-crafting amongst all of it. People tend to remember the parts that made sense and/or were later demonstrated to one degree or another in game lore while forgetting his unique brand of crazy thinking :D
  • Istvaan's own ability to promote and propagate his legend is second to none.

I don't know about CFC. I do think it's possible they've got a few people feeding them info from inside CCP but I don't think either CFC or CCP are likely to be doing this on the same scale as it happened in the early years of the game. They've both seen what happens when that goes public - and it always eventually does.
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Gwen Ikiryo

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #5 on: 01 May 2015, 04:49 »

If you're wondering if CCP is literally gonna let a player character become Amarr Emperor and gave a big and powerful group the okay to push for it to happen because they're big and powerful, I seriously doubt that.

But, if you're just thinking that they might've known Jamyl was - As is looking increasingly likely - gonna get bumped off in advance? That's much harder to say.

For good and ill, Eve is a game where the developers and the players buddy up very closely, much more so than other MMOs, by virtue of it's nature as a hyper sandboxy single server game. Hell, there are tons of events where CCP openly hangs out and goes drinking with their players, and I imagine that's nothing compared to some more private affairs. People are human - You can't hang out with others and only remain a cold, unfeeling company droid with bottomless integnity and self-discipline. People make friends, and for friends, they make exceptions.

So, regrettably, Eve is kinda a game that intrinsically lends itself to a bit of nepotism. And In the past, it was real bad, as far as I've heard, to the point that it was seriously compromising the games fairness in a very direct way. I think CCP has done of fantastic job of slowly pushing themselves further and further away from that kind of thing as the years have gone by, both in terms of self-policing and stuff like the CSM.

But the storyline isn't really on the same level. I doubt anyone would get fired if they spilled the beans to a friend that Roden was secretly a vampire Jovian or something. So I can only imagine that stuff does slip through the cracks; People get tipsy and talk loosely, they blather about their cool ideas in what they believe is perfect confidence, etc. I've seen that thing happen with Blizzard first hand, and that company goes way further to keep it's plans locked up then CCP does. I don't even know if the writers sign an NDA. It seems sort of inevitable.

But is this an instance of that? Who knows, I guess.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 05:18 by Gwen Ikiryo »
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Aelisha

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #6 on: 01 May 2015, 04:58 »

I believe that your conclusion is valid, and to be honest possibly alarming, but that your premise is flawed. The issue here is not that there is collusion or inside information being leaked, but that the current lore team appear to have adopted a reactive method for implementing new lore and modifying the old - spot focus groups, in effect.

They are paying attention to what gets people talking, and that does include a large number of people who have little to no knowledge or interest in lore beside leaving a footprint in the sand (and attempting to pour concrete in it forever more). What we have here is an issue of inclusivity, which I feel is good, leading to a potential bad as CCP attempt to please everyone and only have a tiny team of people around which to form a fulcrum for lore development.

Having no inside knowledge nor desire to really get to know CCP staff (unless we just so happen to become friends over something that is not eve - and even then I would hope to respect their profession and my own distance from it), I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They have the best of intentions, in my head-space, and seek only to provide content to as many people as possible while staying true to their internal vision of the lore. They are, however, only human. They have their own motivations for lore (assumption: increased revenue generated by their successful 'players ARE the story' campaign).

As a result I do not believe anything as sweeping as Max Singularity having a sunlight duel to the death with Jamyl will become a thing - I already has suspicions that the Drifters are going to be used as the scalpel to cut out the elements of lore that have caused more outrage than content. The issue is the simmering under current of lore: the 5-10 year progression form now, as CCP inevitably move lore further towards 'capsuleers are the new sheriffs in town'. Managing this transition, and it is a transition I believe to already be in progress, is a herculean task before you even consider the conflicting desires of blocs, individuals and loyalists. Let me point back to the key issue CCP faces here: limited resources. A small room of dedicated people who, in this discussion, I assume to be above reproach. Being above reproach, however, does not make them infallible, and here we get to the issue of purchasing power.

Large blocs have immense power. A largely disinterested core base will follow their leaders because their leaders are the core of their game interest. Rightly so, they are largely loyal to these content providers. However, these content providers, like CCP, are reliant on 'players ARE the story' to maintain their size. Average subscription times indicate that large blocs likely suffer significant throughput in terms of membership at lower levels - a constant process of corp level requirement and renewal is always happening. And so a constant stream of marketing is required to keep this bandwidth going.

Common elements to attract new members will largely focus on kill board statistics given tiers of pvp (small, large etc), and wallowing in the blood of alliance slain. The usual fare. This directly ties into to the story, when the story becomes player driven, however, and the people running such large operations are by necessity perceptive and often clever. They see the integration of player and story as a supplementary avenue for recruitment. Crushing an 'enemy' (which is literally everyone not in the tribe) with words and getting it up on 3rd party sites is a supplement to their existing motivators for membership. 'Fuck all roleplayers' and similar sentiments do not exist as much more than redditor keyboard rage or discreet forum garbage. They are taglines for the menials to rally around while the real effect is to galvanize action - and only action that benefits the alliance.

My point, belabored as it has been, is that when we bring the story this close to players, I get excited. I love the concept, and honestly I don't mind the rise of the IMPERIUM or any other of it's kind to come, as the innovative nature of players and devs alike excites me. However, it turns the story into another IHUB to bash, another Outpost to grind. Without corruption or collusion, the story becomes a battleground. As a result, the CCP lore team have a hard job ahead of them, but not an impossible one, so long as our input into the process is adversarial only in the client and context of role play. In my opinion, the only way to really engage with this in a meaningful manner regarding our collective fears of what it might become, is to constructively point out that direct involvement in events above or below our purview might seem cool, but consistent intervention on our part will lead to it becoming a new PR battleground instead of a story. A carpet to be walked on instead of a conversation-piece Persian rug hung on a wall.

I doubt CCP will allow players to kill major NPCs except for in very specific instances (Hilen shows up at site one, someone in a Tornado field executes him, just as planned on CCP's part etc). But CCP may become drunk on their own success, Seagull has been a fantastic steers woman and captain of the CCP production team and I believe that success will continue - but unless CCP do want a full transition from living lore to player defined lore, with the current environment becoming more of a history for what we build ourselves, there is a danger.

We ARE the story, and the meta is as much of an influence as any chronicle or actor interaction. Analysis of that meta and concentrated, polite protest of potential abuse, not the people perceived as potential abusers of the lore, is the only real way to move forwards, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 05:01 by Aelisha »
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Jev North

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #7 on: 01 May 2015, 05:49 »

.
« Last Edit: 01 May 2015, 09:17 by Jev North »
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Jocca Quinn

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #8 on: 01 May 2015, 06:18 »

Quote from: Graelyn

Now, I'm watching the Drifter thing get all Ammar-y.


What are the Drifters doing in Amarr space differently to in any other? .. ie how is the Drifter thing getting all Amarr-y?
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Lyn Farel

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #9 on: 01 May 2015, 07:26 »

Other than the incursion of a dozen of circadian sleepers in Amarr (EFA) a few days ago, I don't know...
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Tabor Murn

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #10 on: 01 May 2015, 07:45 »

I'm still not 100% sold on there being an Amarr specific plot. I wonder if the drifter appearance in Amarr if simply a result of their mechanics. They pursue anyone who has ever engaged them, including through stargates. Amarr is the second largest hub in the cluster. I could see CCP keeping drifters out of Jita to keep server performance issues down and to minimize ship replacement tickets. It makes sense to me that given that situation they'd be more noticeable in one spot. As attention is drawn to them being there, more players show up to shoot them and it reinforces the cycle.
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Utari Onzo

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #11 on: 01 May 2015, 08:28 »

New Scope video out, Imperial Forces mobilising vs Drifters. Amarr plot confirmed.
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Pieter Tuulinen

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #12 on: 01 May 2015, 08:40 »


You can't hang out with others and only remain a cold, unfeeling company droid with bottomless integnity and self-discipline.

Actually, you really can. I was a Dev for fifteen years and had community relationship responsibilities for much of that period. For my last year in the industry, I ran our community relations team (a thankless helljob, frankly) and you absolutely can do that without putting the customers ahead of your responsibility not to leak information or sell favours.

And you should be fired if you can't.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #13 on: 01 May 2015, 09:25 »

Once again the Amarr are at the forefront and bring technological breakthrough in the cluster. Wonder why is that ? I can understand for the confessor, and perhaps barely also for the dusters since amarrian ground troops are... well... rather almighty...

But again for entosis ?
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Samira Kernher

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Re: My Paranoia - Buddyknowledge and Amarr
« Reply #14 on: 01 May 2015, 09:51 »

Once again the Amarr are at the forefront and bring technological breakthrough in the cluster. Wonder why is that ? I can understand for the confessor, and perhaps barely also for the dusters since amarrian ground troops are... well... rather almighty...

But again for entosis ?

Amarr are not that backwards.

That being said, note that the common element in all three of these is: Sleeper related. Of which our dear empress has more a connection to than any of the other empires.
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