Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Graelyn on 01 May 2015, 03:19
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(This has nothing to do with that other thing involving devs and players. If you think for a moment it does, then you're a dumbdumb, stop it)
It's not often I look for people to disuade me from possibly batshit thinking. So let's do that!
Amarr roleplay has had a few extremely badform moments that people don't notice much anymore, but the doomsaying part of my mind, sometimes seeing patterns that aren't there, perceives a possibility now, and it makes me :grumpyface:
In 2003, BoB/Evolution lost the Amarr Championship to Kor-Azor, resulting in the death of Jamyl. BoB pilots immediately took to their own forums to assure people 'we were supposed to win that, whoops, don't worry, Jamyl has to return'. They said this not as RPers who cared about the lore, but to provide a 'told you so' point to display one of the most prized labels in gaming/mmo's; "We have the script from our friends inside! :D"
As most any player from the time can tell you, BoB never exerted much effort to hide corruption...
The moment Doriam Kor-Azor was assasinated, Istvaan Shogaatsu of Guiding Hand Social Club, a man whose name is literally printed in the original EVE manual due to his contributions to the original lore, just happened to be parading his Imperial Apocalypse around Emperor Academy Station, the only time this has ever happened before or since. He wouldn't answer questions of why he was there, and as news began to come out of what was happening on the surface, he got to "Goodness, how shocking!", and giggle and play coy to his heart's content. He swears to this day he didn't know anything, and was 'just there at random'. No matter what the real case was, everyone who witnessed this (me among them) pinned him with the same label that BoB showed off years before.
Now, I'm watching the Drifter thing get all Ammar-y.
I'm also watching the CFC, (an Alliance that, admittedly among several others, tend to profit greatly by adapting to changes in the game...that haven't happened yet) suddenly get interested in Amarr RP (or at least their own fucky flavor of it).
...
NAH, That's just too fucking much. That would be.....just...no goddamn way.
I mean, I've seen worse (AM's own Mirial used inside knowledge for years to steer 3 entire event ARCS to a desired resolution), but there's no damn way that would fly in the modern post-CSM EVE.
Right?
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I have never hidden that I want to get rid of zombie uncharismatic Jamyl, but if it's to see her getting assassinated by CFC, or even deposed by Max Singularity, uh... I'm out of Amarr for good.
Sounds a bit alarmist for now though...
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I...agree!
Don't I?
(I've been burned so many many times mummy)
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On another note I think that a Sarum on the throne is the worst thing that can happen to Amarr in terms of lore opportunities. Not that Sarum is a bad House in itself, but it is a Reclaiming powerhorse. Putting a Sarumite on the throne pretty much equates to antagonize the rest of the cluster, and I don't think the Amarr really need anymore evil shades than it already has.
Not that Jamyl has been especially naughty in that regard, but she is.. er.. special...
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As you said Graelyn, I think you're seeing patterns where they probably don't exist based on retrospective linking of at least two unrelated events. Correlation without definitive causation if you like.
I agree that Istvaan's ability to predict the way events will turn is an interesting one but let's look at it objectively:
- as you've already noted his influence on the original lore of the game is writ large, starting before the game was even in beta if I'm not wrong.
- He spends - or at least at one point spent - a lot of time reading and thinking about the lore which means he's probably had a while to come up with all sorts of tin-foil hattery and some more accurate theory-crafting amongst all of it. People tend to remember the parts that made sense and/or were later demonstrated to one degree or another in game lore while forgetting his unique brand of crazy thinking :D
- Istvaan's own ability to promote and propagate his legend is second to none.
I don't know about CFC. I do think it's possible they've got a few people feeding them info from inside CCP but I don't think either CFC or CCP are likely to be doing this on the same scale as it happened in the early years of the game. They've both seen what happens when that goes public - and it always eventually does.
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If you're wondering if CCP is literally gonna let a player character become Amarr Emperor and gave a big and powerful group the okay to push for it to happen because they're big and powerful, I seriously doubt that.
But, if you're just thinking that they might've known Jamyl was - As is looking increasingly likely - gonna get bumped off in advance? That's much harder to say.
For good and ill, Eve is a game where the developers and the players buddy up very closely, much more so than other MMOs, by virtue of it's nature as a hyper sandboxy single server game. Hell, there are tons of events where CCP openly hangs out and goes drinking with their players, and I imagine that's nothing compared to some more private affairs. People are human - You can't hang out with others and only remain a cold, unfeeling company droid with bottomless integnity and self-discipline. People make friends, and for friends, they make exceptions.
So, regrettably, Eve is kinda a game that intrinsically lends itself to a bit of nepotism. And In the past, it was real bad, as far as I've heard, to the point that it was seriously compromising the games fairness in a very direct way. I think CCP has done of fantastic job of slowly pushing themselves further and further away from that kind of thing as the years have gone by, both in terms of self-policing and stuff like the CSM.
But the storyline isn't really on the same level. I doubt anyone would get fired if they spilled the beans to a friend that Roden was secretly a vampire Jovian or something. So I can only imagine that stuff does slip through the cracks; People get tipsy and talk loosely, they blather about their cool ideas in what they believe is perfect confidence, etc. I've seen that thing happen with Blizzard first hand, and that company goes way further to keep it's plans locked up then CCP does. I don't even know if the writers sign an NDA. It seems sort of inevitable.
But is this an instance of that? Who knows, I guess.
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I believe that your conclusion is valid, and to be honest possibly alarming, but that your premise is flawed. The issue here is not that there is collusion or inside information being leaked, but that the current lore team appear to have adopted a reactive method for implementing new lore and modifying the old - spot focus groups, in effect.
They are paying attention to what gets people talking, and that does include a large number of people who have little to no knowledge or interest in lore beside leaving a footprint in the sand (and attempting to pour concrete in it forever more). What we have here is an issue of inclusivity, which I feel is good, leading to a potential bad as CCP attempt to please everyone and only have a tiny team of people around which to form a fulcrum for lore development.
Having no inside knowledge nor desire to really get to know CCP staff (unless we just so happen to become friends over something that is not eve - and even then I would hope to respect their profession and my own distance from it), I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They have the best of intentions, in my head-space, and seek only to provide content to as many people as possible while staying true to their internal vision of the lore. They are, however, only human. They have their own motivations for lore (assumption: increased revenue generated by their successful 'players ARE the story' campaign).
As a result I do not believe anything as sweeping as Max Singularity having a sunlight duel to the death with Jamyl will become a thing - I already has suspicions that the Drifters are going to be used as the scalpel to cut out the elements of lore that have caused more outrage than content. The issue is the simmering under current of lore: the 5-10 year progression form now, as CCP inevitably move lore further towards 'capsuleers are the new sheriffs in town'. Managing this transition, and it is a transition I believe to already be in progress, is a herculean task before you even consider the conflicting desires of blocs, individuals and loyalists. Let me point back to the key issue CCP faces here: limited resources. A small room of dedicated people who, in this discussion, I assume to be above reproach. Being above reproach, however, does not make them infallible, and here we get to the issue of purchasing power.
Large blocs have immense power. A largely disinterested core base will follow their leaders because their leaders are the core of their game interest. Rightly so, they are largely loyal to these content providers. However, these content providers, like CCP, are reliant on 'players ARE the story' to maintain their size. Average subscription times indicate that large blocs likely suffer significant throughput in terms of membership at lower levels - a constant process of corp level requirement and renewal is always happening. And so a constant stream of marketing is required to keep this bandwidth going.
Common elements to attract new members will largely focus on kill board statistics given tiers of pvp (small, large etc), and wallowing in the blood of alliance slain. The usual fare. This directly ties into to the story, when the story becomes player driven, however, and the people running such large operations are by necessity perceptive and often clever. They see the integration of player and story as a supplementary avenue for recruitment. Crushing an 'enemy' (which is literally everyone not in the tribe) with words and getting it up on 3rd party sites is a supplement to their existing motivators for membership. 'Fuck all roleplayers' and similar sentiments do not exist as much more than redditor keyboard rage or discreet forum garbage. They are taglines for the menials to rally around while the real effect is to galvanize action - and only action that benefits the alliance.
My point, belabored as it has been, is that when we bring the story this close to players, I get excited. I love the concept, and honestly I don't mind the rise of the IMPERIUM or any other of it's kind to come, as the innovative nature of players and devs alike excites me. However, it turns the story into another IHUB to bash, another Outpost to grind. Without corruption or collusion, the story becomes a battleground. As a result, the CCP lore team have a hard job ahead of them, but not an impossible one, so long as our input into the process is adversarial only in the client and context of role play. In my opinion, the only way to really engage with this in a meaningful manner regarding our collective fears of what it might become, is to constructively point out that direct involvement in events above or below our purview might seem cool, but consistent intervention on our part will lead to it becoming a new PR battleground instead of a story. A carpet to be walked on instead of a conversation-piece Persian rug hung on a wall.
I doubt CCP will allow players to kill major NPCs except for in very specific instances (Hilen shows up at site one, someone in a Tornado field executes him, just as planned on CCP's part etc). But CCP may become drunk on their own success, Seagull has been a fantastic steers woman and captain of the CCP production team and I believe that success will continue - but unless CCP do want a full transition from living lore to player defined lore, with the current environment becoming more of a history for what we build ourselves, there is a danger.
We ARE the story, and the meta is as much of an influence as any chronicle or actor interaction. Analysis of that meta and concentrated, polite protest of potential abuse, not the people perceived as potential abusers of the lore, is the only real way to move forwards, in my opinion.
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Now, I'm watching the Drifter thing get all Ammar-y.
What are the Drifters doing in Amarr space differently to in any other? .. ie how is the Drifter thing getting all Amarr-y?
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Other than the incursion of a dozen of circadian sleepers in Amarr (EFA) a few days ago, I don't know...
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I'm still not 100% sold on there being an Amarr specific plot. I wonder if the drifter appearance in Amarr if simply a result of their mechanics. They pursue anyone who has ever engaged them, including through stargates. Amarr is the second largest hub in the cluster. I could see CCP keeping drifters out of Jita to keep server performance issues down and to minimize ship replacement tickets. It makes sense to me that given that situation they'd be more noticeable in one spot. As attention is drawn to them being there, more players show up to shoot them and it reinforces the cycle.
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New Scope video out, Imperial Forces mobilising vs Drifters. Amarr plot confirmed.
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You can't hang out with others and only remain a cold, unfeeling company droid with bottomless integnity and self-discipline.
Actually, you really can. I was a Dev for fifteen years and had community relationship responsibilities for much of that period. For my last year in the industry, I ran our community relations team (a thankless helljob, frankly) and you absolutely can do that without putting the customers ahead of your responsibility not to leak information or sell favours.
And you should be fired if you can't.
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Once again the Amarr are at the forefront and bring technological breakthrough in the cluster. Wonder why is that ? I can understand for the confessor, and perhaps barely also for the dusters since amarrian ground troops are... well... rather almighty...
But again for entosis ?
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Once again the Amarr are at the forefront and bring technological breakthrough in the cluster. Wonder why is that ? I can understand for the confessor, and perhaps barely also for the dusters since amarrian ground troops are... well... rather almighty...
But again for entosis ?
Amarr are not that backwards.
That being said, note that the common element in all three of these is: Sleeper related. Of which our dear empress has more a connection to than any of the other empires.
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Some of you are under the assumption there is a wall between some devs and some older, established player groups.
http://archive.evenews24.com/2013/04/25/ex-csmer-claim-internal-investigation-leak-throws-light-on-past-developer-misconduct/
Occasional peeks behind the curtain are not promising.
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Now, I'm watching the Drifter thing get all Ammar-y.
I'm also watching the CFC, (an Alliance that, admittedly among several others, tend to profit greatly by adapting to changes in the game...that haven't happened yet) suddenly get interested in Amarr RP (or at least their own fucky flavor of it).
It's almost like the oldest and most established groups responsible for a lot of the PR EVE gets (big fiiiights) are clairvoyant about upcoming developments.
Uncanny, that.
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For my last year in the industry, I ran our community relations team (a thankless helljob, frankly) and you absolutely can do that without putting the customers ahead of your responsibility not to leak information or sell favours.
And you should be fired if you can't.
Need... +1 button... stat
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Can people who do not play this game anymore stop doomsaying?
Guess what, if there is leaks going on? No one really cares. Lore developments are happening. News is happening. This is a good thing. This is a better thing than the last several years of nothing.
If content creators and social networkers are getting more attention than people sitting waiting to be spoonfed? I see nothing wrong with this.
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Can people who do not play this game anymore stop doomsaying?
Guess what, if there is leaks going on? No one really cares. Lore developments are happening. News is happening. This is a good thing. This is a better thing than the last several years of nothing.
If content creators and social networkers are getting more attention than people sitting waiting to be spoonfed? I see nothing wrong with this.
Fair point! but perhaps a separate point.
+10 points for plot advancement!
+10 points for new videos (yay)
+100 points for maybe spacing Jamyl (triple yay)
Separate division: -1,000 points for foxes in the hen house
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That doesn't detract from the fact you and others are raining on everyone else's parade when you DON'T EVEN PLAY ANYMORE.
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It's not a separate point. It's the same thing that I've seen constantly happen here: RPers shoot themselves in the foot anytime lore developments happen by crying wolf because they get mad that the spotlight isn't on them/their friends.
When the confessor got released there were some people that believed the whole thing had been rigged and Amarr was designated to win, which was pretty insulting for those of us who put a lot of effort and money into it (PIE collectively spent 50 billion on sleeper components). And while I can understand that CCP has had a history of doing stupid things, the lore of this game is not going to ever get to move forward if people make huge presumptions every time something new happens.
I'm so tired of it.
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That doesn't detract from the fact you and others are raining on everyone else's parade when you DON'T EVEN PLAY ANYMORE.
It's a big world anslo; you're an adult and I know mature enough to disagree with someone civily or even ignore them if you'd rather not interact.
But perhaps message me privately in the future for these sorts of comments?
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It's not a separate point. It's the same thing that I've seen constantly happen here: RPers shoot themselves in the foot anytime lore developments happen by crying wolf because they get mad that the spotlight isn't on them/their friends.
How is Graelyn asking about CFC/et all insider operations related?
How is a few people maybe not liking some of the plot direction effecting you in any way? It's text on a screen, you can happily go about your business without mine or Graelyn's opinion effecting you in the slightest way.
You are solely responsible for your enjoyment or not of a thing. If you feel discussion topics are not to your liking be polite or maybe participate in different discussions you do like
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It's not a separate point. It's the same thing that I've seen constantly happen here: RPers shoot themselves in the foot anytime lore developments happen by crying wolf because they get mad that the spotlight isn't on them/their friends.
How is Graelyn asking about CFC/et all insider operations related?
How is a few people maybe not liking some of the plot direction effecting you in any way? It's text on a screen, you can happily go about your business without mine or Graelyn's opinion effecting you in the slightest way.
You are solely responsible for your enjoyment or not of a thing. If you feel discussion topics are not to your liking be polite or maybe participate in different discussions you do like
Wrong. This place is the sole non-CCP owned place for RP/Lore stuff. You have influence no matter how much you try to deny it. As does Graelyn. And others on a bitter rampage recently. You all KNOW you have influence and could bitter CCP to the point they don't want to bother anymore. 'If I don't like it no one gets to,' is what I get. Instead of a simple kudos, you combine it with back handed compliments and round about insults. Not just you but a LOT of the old guard.
How dare you feign ignorance at the power your words in this place has.
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It's not a separate point. It's the same thing that I've seen constantly happen here: RPers shoot themselves in the foot anytime lore developments happen by crying wolf because they get mad that the spotlight isn't on them/their friends.
How is Graelyn asking about CFC/et all insider operations related?
How is a few people maybe not liking some of the plot direction effecting you in any way? It's text on a screen, you can happily go about your business without mine or Graelyn's opinion effecting you in the slightest way.
You are solely responsible for your enjoyment or not of a thing. If you feel discussion topics are not to your liking be polite or maybe participate in different discussions you do like
Wrong. This place is the sole non-CCP owned place for RP/Lore stuff. You have influence no matter how much you try to deny it. As does Graelyn. And others on a bitter rampage recently. You all KNOW you have influence and could bitter CCP to the point they don't want to bother anymore. 'If I don't like it no one gets to,' is what I get. Instead of a simple kudos, you combine it with back handed compliments and round about insults. Not just you but a LOT of the old guard.
How dare you feign ignorance at the power your words in this place has.
I guarantee CCP does not give one flying F what I think about anything, and neither should you. Please stop giving me fake internet points I don't have. It's a small internet forum by a small group of people, no one cares, seriously.
You talk a lot about how much you don't care about stuff and you keep talking to me like I'm ruining your fun. Impossibility, and it's starting to weird me out a bit sitting here at this monitor typing that you put that much stock in something that I promise isn't there.
If I wanted to ruin anything of yours that would be some childish petty stuff.
My opinions about internet space pixels and fantasy plotting is just that, you go have your fun separate from that, ok? Please?
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My response was actually triggered mostly by your post rather than Graelyn's, Silas. The conspiracy theorizing, "oh oh, look how coincidental it is that CFC jumped on the Amarr wagon right as all this stuff happened!" No proof, no evidence, just pointless presumptions to stir fear and paranoia.
That kind of negative bittervetting and crying wolf helps no one.
And how does it affect me? Oh, how about the fact that people crying wolf to IA has several times killed or otherwise damaged lore development and the RP community? We have in-game as just one example a split community and no more dev/actor attention in channels because of it. I do not want to see lore get killed again because of people making presumptions or calling bias because they are not getting the attention.
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[mod]Since this is the latest thread that is heading in that direction, I'm going to leave a reminder here that excessive non-constructive negativity or bittervetting does happen to fall under Rule 11 and may end up being purged with that in mind.
As a pertinent example, Silas, your posting started out skirting that line but has since firmly wedged itself on the incorrect side of it of late.[/mod]
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Once again the Amarr are at the forefront and bring technological breakthrough in the cluster. Wonder why is that ? I can understand for the confessor, and perhaps barely also for the dusters since amarrian ground troops are... well... rather almighty...
But again for entosis ?
Amarr are not that backwards.
That being said, note that the common element in all three of these is: Sleeper related. Of which our dear empress has more a connection to than any of the other empires.
Oh yes, don't get me wrong, it still makes sense, and i'm really the first one to insist on Amarr being as modern as anyone else.
I just found it amusing to find them again leading in technology, that's all.
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Since this is the latest thread that is heading in that direction, I'm going to leave a reminder here that excessive non-constructive negativity or bittervetting does happen to fall under Rule 11 and may end up being purged with that in mind.
As a pertinent example, Silas, your posting started out skirting that line but has since firmly wedged itself on the incorrect side of it of late.
Understood where you are coming from, but if you are going down that road I'll point out I never attack other posters, accuse them of evil things, or flat out curse at people on here as I've seen much of lately. If you feel this line of conversation is veering poorly (or mine lately) I'll happily chill out.
My response was actually triggered mostly by your post rather than Graelyn's, Silas. The conspiracy theorizing, "oh oh, look how coincidental it is that CFC jumped on the Amarr wagon right as all this stuff happened!" No proof, no evidence, just pointless presumptions to stir fear and paranoia.
That kind of negative bittervetting and crying wolf helps no one.
And how does it affect me? Oh, how about the fact that people crying wolf to IA has several times killed or otherwise damaged lore development and the RP community? We have in-game as just one example a split community and no more dev/actor attention in channels because of it. I do not want to see lore get killed again because of people making presumptions or calling bias because they are not getting the attention.
I've never reported anything to IA, I wasn't involved in the dev actor/ channel stupidity, please don't mix me up with that nonsense.
While I understand some of you might not like my tone lately I have to also say it's been just as frustrating being yelled at and accused of trying to do all sorts of things like I'm some illuminati puppet master trying to destroy everyone's fun.
Back to graey's topic please.
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If it was just you, I wouldn't care. It's that this kind of thing always happens any time lore developments start happening. That's what frustrates me.
People always want to look a gift horse in the mouth.
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Edit : actually nevermind, i'm going to post it in the mod section instead...
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When 'lore developments' leave your head firmly embedded in the nearest hard surface to stop the pain, perhaps fearing them is the right response?
I would love to see these plotlines rescued. I would love to see them bring something ultimately good. But I'm just not feeling that right now; what tattered remains there are of the lore team are being firmly shoved into the CAPSULEERS ARE TEH AWESOMEZ, EMPIRES IRRELEVANT hole by greater forces. And I don't see that changing.
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Thank you for your comments Samira and Lyn.
I'll try and tone it down, thank you for suggesting so politely.
Will request the same from others :)
I know there's got to be a middle line somewhere for being able to criticize a thing without being what, overly negative? We'll figure it out.
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Back to topic:
We know that in the past there were some big issues with devs helping players, both giving them influence in game, bpos, insider patch information, things like that.
CSM was formed in part as a response.
Devs have been fired since for similar offense.
This does not mean a conspiracy is currently active or that this sort of thing is ongoing, but an interesitng conjecture for future possibilities based on past actions.
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I have never hidden that I want to get rid of zombie uncharismatic Jamyl, but if it's to see her getting assassinated by CFC, or even deposed by Max Singularity, uh... I'm out of Amarr for good.
Sounds a bit alarmist for now though...
Gosh, if that happens, this is Luna's reaction.
(http://www.gurl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/angry.gif)
I am hopeful there will be more substantive lore reasons for any change in the course of the Amarr ship of state, and change can be good, even if its scary and upsets our IC apple carts (and boy would a Jamyl thing upset my character's carts... :psyccp: ). I'd rather rp in a changing universe than a static one.
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http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/eve-online-borg.332853/page-9#post-17374037
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I have never hidden that I want to get rid of zombie uncharismatic Jamyl, but if it's to see her getting assassinated by CFC, or even deposed by Max Singularity, uh... I'm out of Amarr for good.
Sounds a bit alarmist for now though...
Gosh, if that happens, this is Luna's reaction.
(http://www.gurl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/angry.gif)
I am hopeful there will be more substantive lore reasons for any change in the course of the Amarr ship of state, and change can be good, even if its scary and upsets our IC apple carts (and boy would a Jamyl thing upset my character's carts... :psyccp: ). I'd rather rp in a changing universe than a static one.
If there is some kind of Amarr civil war, things sure are going to turn interesting in loyalist corps.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pKx3oqogKsA/UxRq7pCeFbI/AAAAAAAAO_4/yno2CmAwOsA/s1600/At+first+I+liked+it+but+then+I+didn%2527t.gif)
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The formation of the Imperium is just a continuation of Karmafleet, the CFC's answer to Brave Newbies, TEST, Horde, etc.... Do they actually hope to overthrow anything? I really doubt it, it is just another content gimmick. Could some of those NDA wall people we know all the big groups have also have leaked and the imperium abuse that knowledge to get a one up on the new emperor race ?
Well, yea it sort of seems so.
That said correlation is not the same as causation: False emperor, imperium etc can easily be taken from war hammer and just be nerd crossover. And based on how tight lipped NDA wall nerds generally are (in fear of loosing that golden goose) I am thinking it could just be a coincidence. CCP isn't going to make that random nerd the emperor and they are risking a lot to gain some lore article mentions of CFC's random emperor candidate down the road to violate the NDA's. I guess in short Grae, yea that could totally be what is happening but I hope it isn't.
Anyway Jamyl 4 life
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FFS can we just all agree that new lore is a good thing? Compared to other games, only guildwars 2 has as many story updates as this game does; and they aren't a single shard so people cant affect dev actors and the like.
Silas bless your heart (here comes the but), but if you don't play the game I don't understand your strong feelings for one thing or the other and I can only hope you drag this stuff on the star citizen forums with as much zeal when it comes out. I know you are very passionate about lore, but without tone nor body language it is starting to seem very "stop liking what I don't like and like what I like!" and not just you either. It just seems to be the general trend since the scope video with Anslo in it. As things pile on, and it becomes a group on the internet "us vs them" sets in and bias. Remember with how you don't play you are only getting half the story, the other happens in mails and in-game channels. And when people get drunk, tired, upset its very easy to throw people into categories no matter how fair or unfair it might be.
As for the rest of the posts, its a game. I'm having fun, and I don't care if CCP leaks information or lets some more established people in on it like goonswarm, NC, ect. Especially for things like luring capsuleers to pirate space and getting everyone upset. The amount of RP content generated sustained summit for months.
Its like on the whole of backstage as a collective, the Rp community has been handed lemons and people just decide to skip the lemonade and directly turn it into piss.
I honestly am hoping for an older Amarr, reestablishing their army and having massive pushes against their neighbors or heading to take null space.
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New Lore is good in the big picture but it's not inherently good just because it's new.
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Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you about the 'lets go into nullsec' event. It was poorly conceived and only got worse in the implementation. As an idea it should have been strangled at birth. I have only been involved in one meeting with an idea as bad as that and we burned the conference table afterwards and salted the ashes.
It achieved the diametric opposition of it's goals.
Also, Tony Gonzales highlights quite adequately that it is entirely possible to make things worse by creating new lore. The entire resources and attention span of the bit of CCP that cares about lore were focused on changing the sheets after Tony G shit the bed. Getting rid of Hethler, having to provide the Federation with a series of military victories after making them look impossibly weak, having to build up the Republic after establishing them as a politically divided faction with a weak military and no ethics. It all started with the lore created in the Empyrean Age.
That said, I like the Drifters so far, I'm in favour of a change to the Status Quo and I thought Anslol's group (I'm sorry I don't know all your names, but you're all wonderful) did a sterling job. We reward sterling jobs, don't we? Welcome to Canon, guys - you earned it!
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Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you about the 'lets go into nullsec' event. It was poorly conceived and only got worse in the implementation. As an idea it should have been strangled at birth. I have only been involved in one meeting with an idea as bad as that and we burned the conference table afterwards and salted the ashes.
It achieved the diametric opposition of it's goals.
Also, Tony Gonzales highlights quite adequately that it is entirely possible to make things worse by creating new lore. The entire resources and attention span of the bit of CCP that cares about lore were focused on changing the sheets after Tony G shit the bed. Getting rid of Hethler, having to provide the Federation with a series of military victories after making them look impossibly weak, having to build up the Republic after establishing them as a politically divided faction with a weak military and no ethics. It all started with the lore created in the Empyrean Age.
That said, I like the Drifters so far, I'm in favour of a change to the Status Quo and I thought Anslol's group (I'm sorry I don't know all your names, but you're all wonderful) did a sterling job. We reward sterling jobs, don't we? Welcome to Canon, guys - you earned it!
It's appreciated but we didn't do it to get into the cannon. We did it to show people they can move Eve along too.
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Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you about the 'lets go into nullsec' event. It was poorly conceived and only got worse in the implementation. As an idea it should have been strangled at birth. I have only been involved in one meeting with an idea as bad as that and we burned the conference table afterwards and salted the ashes.
It achieved the diametric opposition of it's goals.
Also, Tony Gonzales highlights quite adequately that it is entirely possible to make things worse by creating new lore. The entire resources and attention span of the bit of CCP that cares about lore were focused on changing the sheets after Tony G shit the bed. Getting rid of Hethler, having to provide the Federation with a series of military victories after making them look impossibly weak, having to build up the Republic after establishing them as a politically divided faction with a weak military and no ethics. It all started with the lore created in the Empyrean Age.
That said, I like the Drifters so far, I'm in favour of a change to the Status Quo and I thought Anslol's group (I'm sorry I don't know all your names, but you're all wonderful) did a sterling job. We reward sterling jobs, don't we? Welcome to Canon, guys - you earned it!
It's appreciated but we didn't do it to get into the cannon. We did it to show people they can move Eve along too.
Yeah, we already made cannon! This was just to have fun.
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I welcome Silas's outside perspective. He has his own opinions and I respect that.
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I welcome Silas's outside perspective. He has his own opinions and I respect that.
Thank you but I'll vote for back to topic and everyone not talking about me and stick to the game :P
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I imagine if CCP did allow the Imperium to claim the throne that not only would there be a civil war but either the Matari would come to aid max as he wants to free the slaves or they would just have no pressing motivational since the more makes the republic kinda bad and slavery to be the driving force behind what little Minmatar unity there is....
That being said it seems possible that they could add some additional things to involve other factions and make an Amarr civil war that is Alot of fun, and i am Inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
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I imagine if CCP did allow the Imperium to claim the throne that not only would there be a civil war but either the Matari would come to aid max as he wants to free the slaves or they would just have no pressing motivational since the more makes the republic kinda bad and slavery to be the driving force behind what little Minmatar unity there is....
That being said it seems possible that they could add some additional things to involve other factions and make an Amarr civil war that is Alot of fun, and i am Inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
Lol another high sec faction!
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I imagine if CCP did allow the Imperium to claim the throne that not only would there be a civil war but either the Matari would come to aid max as he wants to free the slaves or they would just have no pressing motivational since the more makes the republic kinda bad and slavery to be the driving force behind what little Minmatar unity there is....
That being said it seems possible that they could add some additional things to involve other factions and make an Amarr civil war that is Alot of fun, and i am Inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
To be honest, if Derpsec took over my faction I'd probably double down on my promising career in Elite:Dangerous. I can't imagine that'd be a terribly rare opinion and that makes me suspect this speculation is a bit bluesky.
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I imagine if CCP did allow the Imperium to claim the throne that not only would there be a civil war but either the Matari would come to aid max as he wants to free the slaves or they would just have no pressing motivational since the more makes the republic kinda bad and slavery to be the driving force behind what little Minmatar unity there is....
That being said it seems possible that they could add some additional things to involve other factions and make an Amarr civil war that is Alot of fun, and i am Inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt on it.
To be honest, if Derpsec took over my faction I'd probably double down on my promising career in Elite:Dangerous. I can't imagine that'd be a terribly rare opinion and that makes me suspect this speculation is a bit bluesky.
It's not a rare opinion. One of the reasons I originally go investing in the Amarr faction, initially through Dust 514 which led into EVE, was that Jamyl Sarum was the Empress and to me represents a fascinating character.
Pretty sure it was the Chronicle "All these Wayward Children" that was the sole reason I opted for Amarr based on her character.
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To be honest, if Derpsec took over my faction I'd probably double down on my promising career in Elite:Dangerous. I can't imagine that'd be a terribly rare opinion and that makes me suspect this speculation is a bit bluesky.
It's not a rare opinion. One of the reasons I originally go investing in the Amarr faction, initially through Dust 514 which led into EVE, was that Jamyl Sarum was the Empress and to me represents a fascinating character.
Pretty sure it was the Chronicle "All these Wayward Children" that was the sole reason I opted for Amarr based on her character.
I was already in RP by the time Jamyl rolled back in, but I won't deny I've been strongly impressed by the times they've written Jamyl as a smart, strategic and strong-willed person fighting to do what she think is honestly right.
Maybe that's why I've been so bitter lately: Knowing that they can do better, but not doing so.
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Maybe that's why I've been so bitter lately
(http://i.imgur.com/9sJON.gif)
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So CCP has confirmed Half Life 3 is confirmed?
Starring G-man as the Other and the Drifters as the vanguard for the Combine? Can Gordon Freeman save the Amarr Empire and New Eden?!
Edit: On a more serious note. I really don't get this forum sometimes. A few years back people complain about lack of development and player/character interaction in the lore/story/background. It starts to happen and all that happens is what looks to me like petty complaints, whining, and conspiracy theories about corruption and collusion because of what exactly -- other people getting a spotlight and not them?
So much jelly hate here it seems.
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The thread, since you didn't bother to read it, is about people getting unauthorized access to planned developments beforehand and working from this knowledge.
That's....whining about other people getting a spotlight??
Is there anyone else who feels this way? I want all of your names on a handy list.
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Whining? No.
Are we at risk for actually having an Amarrian Emperor Maximilian Singularity VI? Also, no. CCP is not going to turn their space drama into a farce, at least not like that.
Could the Goons have some inside information? Sure.
Do I especially care? ... yeah, a little, but it's more something for somebody to get fired over if it's true than for me to worry about.
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Expected responses:
- LOL Grae you dummy, it's not happening.
- OMG maybe it is happening!
Unexpected responses
- Yeah, well, who cares if it is?
Things...really have changed, it seems.
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Considering the historical baggage, I think I would care.
But again, i'm from the old guard. Kinda... The end segment of the old guard who missed a good chunk of the old guard dev/player interaction.
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Unexpected responses
- Yeah, well, who cares if it is?
Things...really have changed, it seems.
I care insofar as, if someone's cheating, they deserve to get fired and/or banned.
However, I represent accused criminals in court on a regular basis. The fact that things go wrong and people do stuff they oughtn't isn't ... really news to me.
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It's not like I'm not bothered by it. Honestly, I feel vaguely cynical about CCP in such a broad way at this point that it almost puts me off the game - There are some deep seated problems with them I just avoid thinking about. Of course this, as well, puts me off.
I just think... There's no point. The CFC has, what - 40,000 active accounts, they usually say? That's probably close to 1/8th of CCP's income at this point. You'd be naive to think the people in charge of it couldn't poke CCP for a little bit of insider info, even if they aren't in this paticular instance.
That's just how sandboxes are bound to end up working, I suppose.
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Game Companies have to take particular care when allowing their customers to peek behind the curtain into dev land/incoming game stories/etc.
If players can't -really- effect the outcome and it's just new toys and content for you to play with, then it's generally thought of as not too bad to peak at what's coming down the pipe development wise. Think almost any other game or MMO that is non-sandbox.
If you can "sort of" effect the outcome and plot, then they have to be a little more careful. "Next patch all the npc faction X are getting wiped out, we'll have a contest to see which player clan can get the most kills for a statue in their name on the starting city as 'hero of the realm."
CCP have it difficult both ways, because they have a lot of railroad plot long in the works, but they also have as their chief marketing arm that the sandbox is primacy and we are the masters of all things. This runs into collective facedesking for Caldari Prime style events, which are great ideas but are hard to wrangle and coordinate to a level where everyone feels worth participating and shaping the outcome.
Any peeks behind the dev curtain that are useful for players or neat to preview are also generally terrible for keeping plotz under wraps. So it's often lose-lose for them for some players.
EDIT: I think a best "course" of action for the players is for the devs to just spend resources on forks in the road and player agency getting there. The writers can easily say we are broad strokes going from A to B to C, but how we get between those things, and what those things look like in detail could be one of several iterations. In a real sense it matters not if the Fed president is candidate A B or C, why not give it to us to decide? Who cares which Amarr Heir is the Emperor? Why not do fantastic and involved player tournaments of skill to champion the various houses?
I feel like these things should permeate all of Eve from the ground up. There's a difference between letting 'lord penisface loln00b' be the emperor, and letting him and his friends win a contest to have house Kor Azor be the emperor. There's a way for the writers to keep the distance between the more grating player habits and the NPC world, and yet let the players effect the outcomes.
Then they really can push the 'you are effecting the sandbox' marketing.
Players really, really like it when things they do effect NPCs, and their actions would cause big effects with NPC fleets or system ownership etc.
Edit the 2nd:
Just think about all of the different ways players could influence the PF. Not everything has to be pvp.
Economic resource gathering like the T3 Destroyers (good idea, good execution)
Racing Competitions?
Mining Competitions for public works or to assemble new things (tm) for the factions?
'Gladiator' fights with small teams? 2v2, 3v3, 1v1 to champion various cultures or causes in the PF.
'gladiator' arenas for Dust soldiers
'Voting' for elections?
'Voting' with shares for Caldari CEOs
Scripture writing and debates, voting for new bishops in Amarr?
'Research' coordination like the entosis links on the things
and then all of the standard pew pew here at these times to decide how we're going to continue the plot.
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That's just how sandboxes are bound to end up working, I suppose.
Ooof. Eve is Real, eh?
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That's just how sandboxes are bound to end up working, I suppose.
Ooof. Eve is Real, eh?
Give players the tools to organize into big groups, and the ability to affect the game world, and they'll use it to put pressure on you. I don't say that to bash the sandbox model, but it's a fact that's been true since the days of UO. Worlds where guilds have a 100 member cap and all the players are split off into a million little instances are a lot easier to handle.
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The default prerequisite for a true sandbox would be that players are able to push the walls.
I think you can get around that with different walls in different areas.
Choosing the emperor? Maybe a tournament of 100 of the best solo champions.
Who gets the Lai Dai contract for x system? Corp Warfare
Who gets the sov for the region on behalf of x faction's colonization plan? X alliance.
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Economic resource gathering like the T3 Destroyers (good idea, good execution)
Racing Competitions?
Mining Competitions for public works or to assemble new things (tm) for the factions?
'Gladiator' fights with small teams? 2v2, 3v3, 1v1 to champion various cultures or causes in the PF.
'gladiator' arenas for Dust soldiers
'Voting' for elections?
'Voting' with shares for Caldari CEOs
Scripture writing and debates, voting for new bishops in Amarr?
'Research' coordination like the entosis links on the things
I like these. :D
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Actors who win the Best Supporting Oscar for their portrayal of the antagonist whose schemes are ultimately foiled by the protagonist, generally don't have to supply their own costumes or props, have a stunt double, and know that their character loses in the end, because it's written down in the script that they've been given.
EVE players p.much have to supply their own costumes and props, do their own stunts, and on the rare occasions they are given a script, it only contains their lines.
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I think what I'm getting at is that with not an exceeding extra amount of input it is very feasible to set up n events where there are A and B possible results that require not a lot of extra work.
N lore event features two different outcomes, players do the work and results are immediately known
Display B result text in local, adjust npc spawns or system security, or publish pre-written result B with names changed/added to the main news feeds.
At the most basic level the difference between capsuleer group A killing the convoy or capsuleer group B saving the convoy is just a bunch of different local and news text after the exploding or not exploding is done.
Secondary event will start with x conditions based on that event, etc.
You all know how it goes.
The best part is CCP doesn't even have to pay people for this.
GRAND CONTEST SUBMISSIONS FOR LOW STAKES NPC EVENTS.
Submit plots privately following those sorts of event chains and spawn ques, CCP takes the top 50 submissions and you've got player events for two years.
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My $.02
I wasn't aware of all the aspects of the CFC/Jamyl thing.
That being said, I'm on the EVE FaceBook group. So what I've seen recently is funny older chap who did some really cool cosplay at a convention get noticed. People jumped on the bandwagon, added to the schtick and ran with it.
The reality is Charles, aka Max Singularity, is quite stunned by his recent in and out of game celebrity in the EVE community. RP is a very new thing for him and he's actually a bit shy of screwing it up. He doesn't have experience with RP, but he doesn't want to kick over anyone's OOC anthill. So CFC ties with CCP or not, I doubt we're in any real danger of an Emperor Max. Next time he's on, drag him into an OOC channel.
Jamyl on the other hand...I can see her reign coming to an end (bwa ha ha). Civil War in Amarr? That would be ultra cool.
And I could be wrong, but I think the Devs are noticing more what we do in IGS. Take a close look at those tickers on the bottom of the SCOPE broadcasts and you can see some threads playing out there (Soter in Black Rise, the Angels in Tamo, Max's words against Jamyl's legitimacy, etc.). In an MMO, that's pretty rare.
So maybe we need to up the storytelling ante a bit?
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The thread, since you didn't bother to read it, is about people getting unauthorized access to planned developments beforehand and working from this knowledge.
That's....whining about other people getting a spotlight??
Is there anyone else who feels this way? I want all of your names on a handy list.
Sure, I read it, I just thought it was the simpler conclusion was that the CFC decided to do some rebranding under the guise of Imperium (Makes sense, it's a powerful tool to try and forge a cohesive identity that members across their coalition can buy into and so on) and as part of that initiative they support someone who enjoys Amarr cosplaying, because hey why not it's fun, and it might tie into some hilarious agitprop if they decide to use Providence as a staging region for content farming around the south and west in future.
I fail to see where the evidence exists that they have insider info due to that? Sure, AURORA was corrupt and in the end was used by its volunteers essentially as providing shiny ships and supercaps to their friends or seeking to drive the lore in a direction they wanted, however I'm not playing Eve in the past, so yes when all I read is what to me is what I'd describe as spurious speculation and some pretty serious allegations without a body of proof then yes, my only warranted response would be to take the piss out of it - much like I do with a lot of conspiracy theories.
As for my later commentary well, that's directed not only towards the content of this thread but what I perceive as a general trend both here in this forum and probably in the "community" in general to denigrate the efforts and content generation of others whether it be those who create Drifter medical reports, popular cosplayers like Max Singularity, or groups like Imperium as examples by casting the aspersions that the only reasons for their recognition or success is due to CCP collusion or favouritism as presented in the format of conspiracy theories based on spurious, "evidence".
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Perhaps talk about the 'general trend' in another thread, as we seem to keep getting derailed.
For your first two paragraphs:
I understand where you are coming from, but also please understand where Graelyn is coming from. I think your point of view makes absolute sense if the Aurora/Bob thing was an isolated incident. Unfortunately every few years another couple of devs get fired for doing the same thing
I think that loose lips talking about upcoming things is not up for debate; it happens and it will always happen, in this game or any other. The thing is weather we care that much, and what the effect is.
It could be as simple as a Dev over drinks mentioning to a player friend that Jamyl is about to go, in which case the CFC Amarr thing is all tongue in cheeck and for a bit of laughs, not really a big deal. It's not my shtick but it doesn't rustle any of my jimmies.
Slightly more rustled jimmies if more of the dev firing sorts of shenanigans are happening, but in the end that's just giving certain groups intel or looking up player locations and fits. Not the end of the world.
My point is that although you have every reason to be skeptical of his theories, perhaps acknowledge that devs keep getting fired for this thing over many years and it just might be a thing as well.
The sky isn't falling though we should all agree on that, even if the Dev gives his best friend the super titan, it just means one guy or one group got special treatment and not automatically that everyone else suffers. If that makes sense.
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My $.02
I wasn't aware of all the aspects of the CFC/Jamyl thing.
That being said, I'm on the EVE FaceBook group. So what I've seen recently is funny older chap who did some really cool cosplay at a convention get noticed. People jumped on the bandwagon, added to the schtick and ran with it.
The reality is Charles, aka Max Singularity, is quite stunned by his recent in and out of game celebrity in the EVE community. RP is a very new thing for him and he's actually a bit shy of screwing it up. He doesn't have experience with RP, but he doesn't want to kick over anyone's OOC anthill. So CFC ties with CCP or not, I doubt we're in any real danger of an Emperor Max. Next time he's on, drag him into an OOC channel.
Jamyl on the other hand...I can see her reign coming to an end (bwa ha ha). Civil War in Amarr? That would be ultra cool.
And I could be wrong, but I think the Devs are noticing more what we do in IGS. Take a close look at those tickers on the bottom of the SCOPE broadcasts and you can see some threads playing out there (Soter in Black Rise, the Angels in Tamo, Max's words against Jamyl's legitimacy, etc.). In an MMO, that's pretty rare.
So maybe we need to up the storytelling ante a bit?
(1) Yes, I agree Sinjinn, that's why I stepped in and invited him to "The Good Word" in the first place for RP and it was good fun. We'll see if he responds to Luna's mail for a private dinner.
(2) I do agree we need to up the storytelling ante :)
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My $.02
I wasn't aware of all the aspects of the CFC/Jamyl thing.
That being said, I'm on the EVE FaceBook group. So what I've seen recently is funny older chap who did some really cool cosplay at a convention get noticed. People jumped on the bandwagon, added to the schtick and ran with it.
The reality is Charles, aka Max Singularity, is quite stunned by his recent in and out of game celebrity in the EVE community. RP is a very new thing for him and he's actually a bit shy of screwing it up. He doesn't have experience with RP, but he doesn't want to kick over anyone's OOC anthill. So CFC ties with CCP or not, I doubt we're in any real danger of an Emperor Max. Next time he's on, drag him into an OOC channel.
Jamyl on the other hand...I can see her reign coming to an end (bwa ha ha). Civil War in Amarr? That would be ultra cool.
And I could be wrong, but I think the Devs are noticing more what we do in IGS. Take a close look at those tickers on the bottom of the SCOPE broadcasts and you can see some threads playing out there (Soter in Black Rise, the Angels in Tamo, Max's words against Jamyl's legitimacy, etc.). In an MMO, that's pretty rare.
So maybe we need to up the storytelling ante a bit?
(1) Yes, I agree Sinjinn, that's why I stepped in and invited him to "The Good Word" in the first place for RP and it was good fun. We'll see if he responds to Luna's mail for a private dinner.
(2) I do agree we need to up the storytelling ante :)
I saw his cosplay pic and it was very good. Exceptional even.
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Having spoken to max singularity since I posted I now no longer am paranoid about this.
I don't think there is an unfair distribution of information being taken advantage of (at least in regards to imperium/max,) It seems like it is just legitimately happening :cube:
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That is great to hear.