Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jade Constantine]

One thing I will say about Chatsubo at the end - it's probably worth reading Silver Night's final straw thread there for a synopsis of the issues ....

http://www.eve-chatsubo.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5415

Basically there was a war going on with some of the RP community hating the others and wanting them banned from life pretty much. And chatsubo was being used as the battleground with the bullets and bombs being the petition system and the moderation team being expected to keep score and handle the executions.

I'm not going to go into the rights and wrongs of the war. People who remember the time know where my loyalties were and I pretty much stand by everything I said and did back then.

But the more interesting point was that the forum was expected to be the weapon that people wanted to use to fight. Cosmo suffered in the end by stating his intention not to be co-opted into the conflict and ended up being accused of bias from both sides at various times and Silver Night's thread that I've linked was the final declaration of secession that led to chatsubo ultimately dying. I believe in the end Cosmo and the Chatsubo mods even tried adding an ignore function to the forum - but that wasn't enough - people didn't want not to be annoyed by their enemies - they wanted their enemies functionally barred and punished. There was no room for compromise. 

Now entertainingly - Backstage did demonstrate something with absolute clarity that Chatsubo could not - that is who could, and who could not, play within a rigid set of forum rules and keep themselves under control. Cosmo's liberality and desire not to exclude anyone meant this remained something of an open hotly debated point up to the end - whereas Backstage's heavy and uncompromising moderation meant it became quickly obvious what the answer was. Revan and I ended up posting in Backstage with no issue or incident whereas many of our more fervent opponents discovered that everyone being expected to be civil and polite was something they actually couldn't stomach after all.

I'll be honest, despite my doubts about some of the moderation team here - you guys did play fair and I was pleasantly surprised - it was something of a relief even for me to be able to post in threads and not have a bunch of loony-tune flamers frothing with incandescent rage more than once. I have always found it very easy to discuss matters of eve with people when there is mutual respect (even if its the kind of respect guaranteed by moderator orbital strike cannons!)

But the pertinent point even today - is there is a dark side to these moderation discussions when talk of heavy punishment or restricting the other guys goes on - its usually about trying to use the forum mods as umpires in a private war. That ultimately, is what killed Chatsubo because people didn't want Cosmo to be "fair" they wanted him to purge their enemies and nothing less than complete contrition to that goal would have satisfied the factions that ultimately left and (somewhat briefly) came here. I think on balance its probably good that it did happen because I'm honestly glad that certain individuals got what they wished for and were evidently fed to their own machine. Which if nothing else, is pretty darkly humorous!


 

[Desiderya]

Vincent has given a quite solid writeup including the conclusion that has properly fulfilled itself. We've got three pages with pointless details instead discussing the more important issues, one of the other aspects has been highlighted by me. Originally I wanted to write a more conclusive post about the good, the bad and the ugly, but reading that wankery was just too much.
Add in your response that trolls back, then tell me to go fuck off, so I'm not sure who's the bigger cunt of us two here.

[Jade Constantine]

Vincent has given a quite solid writeup including the conclusion that has properly fulfilled itself. We've got three pages with pointless details instead discussing the more important issues, one of the other aspects has been highlighted by me. Originally I wanted to write a more conclusive post about the good, the bad and the ugly, but reading that wankery was just too much.
Add in your response that trolls back, then tell me to go fuck off, so I'm not sure who's the bigger cunt of us two here.

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about? Would you care to rephrase with a little less swearing?

[Desiderya]

My response wasn't aimed at you, I'm just slow at posting.

[Jade Constantine]

It wasn't aimed at you but Havohej.

Ah.

Oh well, for what it's worth - I do believe the tale of two forums is probably relevant to your own discussion regardless. You could see the evolution of Chatsubo into Backstage as what happens when a liberal regime of being about to tell a fool they are a fool turns into escalation, petition warfare and weaponising the moderation process. I mean, who is judging whether you are in the right to call a fool a fool in the first place? Why shouldn't the condemned have an answer? And where does it stop when it escalates? Eve RP'ers are a peculiar mix of extremely abrasive verbal speakers with very thin skins... You can look at chatsubo to see where it ends when the image macro guy gets his way you know. Its all out warfare followed by Armageddon and then post apocalyptic dictatorship of manners rising from the radioactive dust ...

[Lyn Farel]

As to the bittervetting, it kind'a can be disheartening for those that feel enthusiastic about EVE. Yet, I think it's a reflection on the staten of the game. Then again, it'd be nice to to not have it in all threads, so maybe estabish some 'bittervet-free zones' or a dedicated 'bittervetting zone'?

Maybe just to tell them to slow down a bit and take a step back when they either start rambling and repeating ad nauseam the same thing, or either when it's just pointless bitter rage not even constructive, could be sufficient at first ? No need to curbstomp them every time at the first sign of negative comment or else we are seriously going into the slippery slope of "criticism is only good when it's positive". Especially since that's a really subjective action to take, a lot more than moderating insults or whatever.

Who was the one saying sth about skirting around the rules when it comes to insults? Sounds like we hit a jackpot with it after all.

Not sure what you're saying, here.

That Lyn Farel's post is not helpful and sounds like it's written by a pretentious cunt, and not Lyn Farel, because it's using veiled attacks that do not cross the rules against basically everyone who disagrees with the status quo on this particular aspect of the rules.

Yes, it is using what can be seen as veiled attacks and for that I apologize. But heh, if insulting all along at every opportunity is not behaving like a savage, well...  whatever floats your boat.

I sure ain't calling neither my friends nor people I live with, or work with, or play with, all sorts of names either because I don't like them, or worse, just because it's cool, yo, to speak like an uncouth douche. FFS, grow up people.

Do we really have to get down to that level with sexist slurs and all that flowery shenanigans that some people seem to worship ?

[Desiderya]

@Jade
That's why we wanted to discuss the right now situation, and not why backstage was formed next to chatsubo, which is not just in the past but also irrelevant as there is no alternative board with alternative rules anymore, and either you want to encompass the remnants of ~the community~ in one place or you don't. Both decisions are valid.

@Lyn
No need to apologize in the first place. It's astounding, however, how you can apologize for one thing and continue to do the same.
For the sake of Jade's nice response: The criticism on the strict moderation in regard to HTFU especially and blunt language does not come from the desire to spew insults and burn this forum down in flamewars of epic proportions but rather the observation that the protection of opinions/conservation of discussion culture has bred a culture where bullshitting, whining, bittervetting and being too dense to accept polite criticism is prevalent and could be cured by a good dose of direct opinions, even if it makes people uncomfortable because it might not coincide with their opinion of themselves.
The very fact that criticism against that particular (HTFU) aspect is met with faux moral superiority ("As a civilized person myself I do not see the need to stoop to insults like the douches over there." /sip ) instead a proper discussion about where the line should be drawn instead is quite telling.

[Havohej]

Vincent has given a quite solid writeup including the conclusion that has properly fulfilled itself. We've got three pages with pointless details instead discussing the more important issues, one of the other aspects has been highlighted by me. Originally I wanted to write a more conclusive post about the good, the bad and the ugly, but reading that wankery was just too much.
Add in your response that trolls back, then tell me to go fuck off, so I'm not sure who's the bigger cunt of us two here.

Up to this post, you contributed nothing at all to this thread.

@Jade
That's why we wanted to discuss the right now situation, and not why backstage was formed next to chatsubo, which is not just in the past but also irrelevant as there is no alternative board with alternative rules anymore, and either you want to encompass the remnants of ~the community~ in one place or you don't. Both decisions are valid.

@Lyn
No need to apologize in the first place. It's astounding, however, how you can apologize for one thing and continue to do the same.
For the sake of Jade's nice response: The criticism on the strict moderation in regard to HTFU especially and blunt language does not come from the desire to spew insults and burn this forum down in flamewars of epic proportions but rather the observation that the protection of opinions/conservation of discussion culture has bred a culture where bullshitting, whining, bittervetting and being too dense to accept polite criticism is prevalent and could be cured by a good dose of direct opinions, even if it makes people uncomfortable because it might not coincide with their opinion of themselves.
The very fact that criticism against that particular (HTFU) aspect is met with faux moral superiority ("As a civilized person myself I do not see the need to stoop to insults like the douches over there." /sip ) instead a proper discussion about where the line should be drawn instead is quite telling.

Now you're sort of contributing.  You feel that discussion of the forum's genesis, or evolution from Chatsubo, is irrelevant.  You also insist that there is no place else to post.  You're entitled to these opinions, and welcome to express them reasonably, which you finally (almost) have.



The rules, their validity and the exercise of their moderation has been called into question elsewhere on this forum.  Nobody else could be arsed to actually start a thread here in ModDisc about it, even after my explicitly inviting them to do so - twice - so, since I give a fuck about the forum and its users and the idea that started the forum four years ago, I started the thread myself.  Knowing that it was inevitable for discussion of Chatsubo and its "downfall" to ensue, though not knowing the topic would draw Jade (though I'm glad that it has, because I dare say that other than Cosmo himself - and I'm not sure he's even allowed to post on this forum given CCP's current policies - nobody else is as well equipped as Jade to engage in discussion, let alone debate, of the hows and whys involved in all of that).

The simple fact, Desiderya, is that without a firm understanding of why the rules exist it is patently impossible to judge whether they are serving their intended aims well or whether they are, contrary to the desired effect, creating an atmosphere just as stifling to wide-spread participation as the more "liberal" (to use Jade's description - Cosmo's as well, I think?) application of moderation at Chatsubo.

Neither you nor Vince has supplied much in the way of opinion supporting why you think that letting someone behave like a total assclown with complete impunity, insulting and belittling posters with opposing opinions, dogpiling on them until they either obey the ignorant vocal minority or leave the forum and the RP scene altogether which is the much higher likelihood is a better way to go about things.

Even Jade, an outspoken proponent of Cosmo's approach to forum administration/moderation, acknowledges with candor that there came out of our approach a positive, if imperfect, result.  I think that's about as much as we could have asked for, really, but I'd still like to hear ways that our users think the atmosphere might be improved in such a way as to promote a return to the higher levels of participation and content generation that we've seen in previous years, including the return to activity of some of the folks who're still playing the game but no longer active here.

Passive aggressive sniping at someone (Lyn, in this case) about veiled insults (which do, in fact, violate our rules) while composing lengthy posts with your own little veiled insult nuggets distributed throughout isn't going to win you any "points", Desi.  Your inability to understand that any discussion of a shift in our rules and/or their enforcement must come from a place of understanding their raison d'être isn't doing you any favors, either.  You come into this thread complaining about wankery and flailing your own wank about like an asshole.  You're neither banned nor even warned.  You have the ability to click post.  That, in itself, gives you as much freedom to contribute something useful to the discussion.

So instead of insults and bullshit, put in some fucking :effort: and state, in a reasonable, mature, adult tone, what you think we should be doing to address the thinskinned or the whining or the bittervetting - but do so knowing that Backstage has not and will not ever adopt the stance that everyone needs to HTFU and put up with all manner of abuse just to post and participate on these boards.

EDIT:  OH, about there not being an alternative forum to post on.  You and Vince have both insisted that Chatsubo is not a viable alternative, I think?  Well, as has been stated, the board's still up.  It's not locked or archived.  You can, in fact, post there.  I would even go so far as to explicitly state that I have no problem with threads there being linked here, as I assume Cosmo would not have a problem with the reverse.  You have dozens of chat channels in game in which to link Chatsubo threads.  If you want to post something that won't fly here, post it there and link to it wherever you think it will receive the most favorable attention.  If people are interested in what you have to say and/or interested in participating in the topic with the Chatsubo ruleset, they will.

Chatsubo is not a viable alternative because you have decided it is not.  There is no other reason.

[Lyn Farel]

@Lyn
No need to apologize in the first place. It's astounding, however, how you can apologize for one thing and continue to do the same.
For the sake of Jade's nice response: The criticism on the strict moderation in regard to HTFU especially and blunt language does not come from the desire to spew insults and burn this forum down in flamewars of epic proportions but rather the observation that the protection of opinions/conservation of discussion culture has bred a culture where bullshitting, whining, bittervetting and being too dense to accept polite criticism is prevalent and could be cured by a good dose of direct opinions, even if it makes people uncomfortable because it might not coincide with their opinion of themselves.
The very fact that criticism against that particular (HTFU) aspect is met with faux moral superiority ("As a civilized person myself I do not see the need to stoop to insults like the douches over there." /sip ) instead a proper discussion about where the line should be drawn instead is quite telling.

Oh yes, sorry for the pastiche. It was definitely not intended /sarcasm

For a more constructive answer, cf Havo's above. I don't feel like repeating what he already wrote for brevity's sake.

I feel like this is going nowhere for me. I have carefully made my point in my first post in there in a - I hope - constructive manner, and now, I am really sorry that you have to resort to your usual ad hominems instead of a more constructive way to deal with the matter at hand. Calling the messenger a hypocrite with 'faux' moral superiority is certainly an interesting way to go, but how does that address the point ?

[Desiderya]

That post you've linked took a few good hours of work/research over two days. It was quite clear at that point that A) debunking bullshit properly takes more effort than just c&p from some blog and B) there was a layman talking about things he does not fully understand (I'm sorry if I'm doing the poster an injustice, but it is my subjective opinion).

Let's agree to disagree, I was wrong with my perceived problems on this board and am going to HTFU a bit. Thanks for pointing me towards chatsubo. It is very helpful.

[Arista Shahni]

Having read a few pages of this, decaffinated, I start with..

"What the fuck ..?"


I think I've been generally good at pointing out flaws and offering constructive criticism with out calling people assholes *and* I get to curse while I do it (yes, my father was a sailor, thank you very much, and cursing as an adult isn't done to make one cool, it is done because they are an adult, and they are finally allowed to use cursewords.)

When it comes to discussions and etc, and the important part for me is especially with the influx (regardless of size) of new people...

One should not approach a situation in the YOU ARE BAD AM I AM GOOD! mindset, the I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE NEW AND THEREFORE WRONG AND IF YOU HAVEN'T READ ALL OF THE CHRONS AND THE 27,000 LINKS OF PLAYER WRITTEN LORE YOU MUST BE SHIT AND NO I DON'T EVEN LINK THEM IN MY ARGUMENTS TO HELP YOU BECAUSE YOU SHOULD KNOW! way. 

That example in all caps is how the passive agressive shit starts.  Not the person writing in he caps.  That person is usuually just making a statement that criticising but not constructive that boils down to "No, because Lore" regardlss of its length. And I'd seen tons of em.  I'd *run into them* as responses to my own posting.  And I'm almost of the mind that they're not even the capslock poster's purposeful fault. 

The posts smack of the metaphorical intellectual quite accidentally speaking in the assumption that they are reminding someone of something and just *simply don't realize* the person never knew it - so in an attempt to treat someone as an equal (allbeit a slightly absent minded one) the pebble rolls down the snowslope, because it ends up looking patronizing/condescending .. take your pick of the multisyllabic term for "being a an uppity know-it all dick" that you like.  Fortunately I don't take shit personally enough cept on bad days, and my response would be, "Do you have the links for that for my reference?" 

I'm not even going to dig through my old ass posts for examples.  Because I'm lazy.

If someone can't read 'internet tone' (and I'll be egotistical here - a lot of people can't, at all, and a lot of being are only passable at it, and I'm pretty good at it) the passive aggressive shit arrives as a response to capslocked example.  Then capslocked person, quite rightly, sees passive aggression.  And then it bounces back and forth getting worse and worse, derailing the purpose of the thread and getting personal, until finally one of us snaps and pretends we're in localchat.

There's going to be frictioning and fractioning no matter what as time goes on cause that's what people with the ability to spread out and make their own tribes do.  There is a level of rules that need to be handled - not to make people's feelings feel better - but to make people feel like they're part of an actual human community.  A person's ability to fight doesn't make them weaker than someone else, or stronger than someone else, just different than someone else.  A person's inability to follow a rule, same applies.

So the main issue I see is that all of the people who have been posting for the past few years have been doing it wr..

*is violently jerked out of view*

(in all seriousness, eve lore etc is a DAUNTING PILE to wade into.  When new people post Things, a safer bet would be to instead of pointing out all the shit they've done wrong and getting to flex intellectual muscle BECAUSE YOU KNOW ITS TRUE CAUSE YOU HAVE THE SOURCE LINKS ARR ARR, its usually better to send them the links to all the stuff first that would help them put their story more in line with Lore without saying which parts are wrong first because 9 times out of 10, the person you are talking to is indeed also intellectualy muscley.  THEN if they don't get it, or flatly ask "Eh, can you just tell me the pertinent bits (aka they TRUST YOU) play college professor with people.

Just my personal opinion.

And the three of you? Stop derailing the thread with your passive agressive shit and go kiss.

Edited to add: http://www.wimp.com/brainstormingwork/  .. watch it.  I SAID WATCH IT!  You need cristicism AND construction.  Only one, or the other,  or neither, is useless.

[Havohej]

And the three of you? Stop derailing the thread with your passive agressive shit and go kiss.

I don't think I was being passive at all. 

[Arista Shahni]

Yes you were.  Instead of responding you should have instead wildly cackled with glee at your powers and abused the full extent of them. 

(and in the second sentence after /Samuel L Jackson's epic voice-over.)

Either way I am running out of memory on the camera's memstick so start the damned kissing.

And none of this is constructive so this is my last post on this thought.

[Louella Dougans]

faction war killed chatsubo.

live events killed backstage.

[Jade Constantine]

faction war killed chatsubo.

live events killed backstage.

I did read that live events thread trainwreck in the catacombs earlier ... that was an interesting 180 from some of the people involved.