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Author Topic: It's been 4 years.  (Read 25408 times)

Laurentis Thiesant

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #45 on: 05 Aug 2014, 20:02 »

I have not seen so much activity in so many forum threads in the past three days than in my entire time back in game.
Good work, various ranting threads!  :lol:
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orange

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #46 on: 05 Aug 2014, 20:13 »

I didn't realize I was a member of Star Fraction.  :roll:

orange is a mod on Chatsubo   :s

Quote from: Ché Biko
On Silver's Go-back-2-Chatsubo comment: I can see why some people see it violating Wheaton's Law, but I can also see that the comment in question might not have been maliciously intended, and Silver's "Use chatsubo ≠ stop using Backstage" rings true in my mind. Even if using chatsubo is not a valid suggestion, I doubt it was meant to mean "leave our community and wander the desert".

As people's perceptions of Chatsubo mods indicates, intent matters less than perception.
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Vikarion

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #47 on: 05 Aug 2014, 20:49 »

I didn't realize I was a member of Star Fraction.  :roll:

In all fairness, Orange, I don't recall anyone complaining about you, and I do recall a few instances in which you fielded complaints about the other moderators.

I suppose you can blame everything on perception. But there were plenty of instances in which people who weren't SF got posts deleted for stuff that SF members got away with, sometimes even in the very same thread.

I know it can be a mistake to say that "where there's smoke, there's fire", but in the case of Chatsubo, there was a fuckload of smoke. The fact that you weren't on fire doesn't mean that there wasn't any.

Personally, of all the Eve RPers I've interacted with, I hold you in the highest esteem, and I think that if all the mods on Chatsubo had acted with your integrity, there would have been no desire for Backstage.
« Last Edit: 05 Aug 2014, 20:53 by Vikarion »
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Silver Night

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #48 on: 05 Aug 2014, 22:40 »

To be clear, for my part, I don't think there was any intentional bias in Chatsubo moderation. At the same time (and I'm sure mods here, and anyone who has modded a communication medium for a community of which they are also a member can attest to this) it can be difficult to keep a perfectly objective perspective on people's behavior when you have a history with them, good or bad.

Also, Jade, I think Havo has addressed most of your general arguments, but to address a couple of things about myself specifically:

I can't speak for others involved in the genesis of Backstage, but I was actually not a target in any real way of any of the more negative aspects of Chatsubo. For me the problem was that it was extremely frustrating having the overall utility of the forum pretty much disappear due to the drama. I didn't have my feelings hurt (and while there is a perception that Backstage's rules are here to prevent hurt feelings, that isn't exactly accurate - I'll get back to that in a moment*), I was just pretty pissed that I could hardly use the forum for anything interesting anymore. At least, that's my recollection - it has been 4 years.  Also, again not speaking for anyone else, I don't recall trying to bully anyone into anything (I won't deny - as I don't actually remember - that I probably reached out to Cosmo at some point about taking moderator action. I think that's a fairly reasonable first step for someone concerned about how moderation is handled, and we have a whole section for it here.) - though I feel as though if I displayed the level of megalomania (albeit apparently passive-aggressive megalomania?) you imply, I would probably much more interesting.  :lol:

Finally, the idea that the folks who started Backstage purposefully 'killed' Chatsubo overstates, I think, our influence (leaving aside the fact that it utterly misstates our goal). For myself, I don't think I was particularly well known in the community at the time (and I'm probably not particularly well known now), and I don't think that the RP community had at that time anyone who wielded the kind of influence it would take to purposefully swing everyone from one place to another. I'm frankly not even sure what forces lead to Chatsubo declining as rapidly as it did - though for my part I mostly stopped using it because it stopped generating useful content (perhaps a warning, for Backstage).

The folks who are talking about the 'Go use Chatsubo' comment: I understand where the perception of it is coming from, I do. And I apologize if I didn't express myself clearly enough. But my point is that I see a lot of people who are unhappy with Backstage in it's current form or any form it is likely to take (even if we do modify some guidelines) and I don't see them willing to put any effort into finding any solution for that, other than rants here. It takes maybe 4-5 really active people to make a forum useful, and after that it tends to snowball. That's all it would take - enough people to have a conversation. It seems like there are at least that many people who would like an alternative to Backstage. Hell, I would probably post, if I saw somewhere else becoming active, if only because as an admin here I sometimes find myself avoiding posting in threads lest it make it awkward later when they might need to be moderated. Starting a forum (or restarting one) is not trivial, but it isn't so much more difficult than, say, starting a semi-successful Eve corporation.

*Getting back to the idea that the rules are there to prevent hurt feelings for a moment: They may have that effect, but they came from looking at what tended to go wrong in threads in Chatsubo (the things that tended to lead to derails and flamewars drowning out useful content) and working backward to remove those things. The general idea was that it meant making it so when people spoke up, they wouldn't have to worry about being attacked or immediately shut down.

All o the history and interpersonal conflict aside, the two recurring things I'm seeing in this thread are that in some ways the rules are having the opposite effect (people feel too constrained by them to post) and that the even larger problem is that bittervetting is making people feel, well, pretty much like we were trying to avoid in the start. Neither of these sound like super easy problems, moderation-wise, but it might be something we can address, and I hope people have some ideas about it  (and I appreciate the ideas that have already been posted.)

Desiderya

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #49 on: 06 Aug 2014, 04:37 »

Why the fuck are you all talking about chatsubo instead of talking about improvements for this forum/community?
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #50 on: 06 Aug 2014, 04:49 »

Why the fuck are you all talking about chatsubo instead of talking about improvements for this forum/community?

This.

Lyn Farel

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #51 on: 06 Aug 2014, 05:20 »

Why the fuck are you all talking about chatsubo instead of talking about improvements for this forum/community?

Because to understand a problem, it might be usefull to look at History.

Though agreed, too much talk about Chatsubo.

All o the history and interpersonal conflict aside, the two recurring things I'm seeing in this thread are that in some ways the rules are having the opposite effect (people feel too constrained by them to post)


If people feel constrained by basic politeness and education (or civilization ?) I wonder if that's still a forum/rules issue anymore  :?:

I can understand that the internet culture can tend to forget all that in favour of animal behavior, but still...
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #52 on: 06 Aug 2014, 09:34 »

If people feel constrained by basic politeness and education (or civilization ?) I wonder if that's still a forum/rules issue anymore  :?:

I can understand that the internet culture can tend to forget all that in favour of animal behavior, but still...
I kind'a agree there with Lyn. Imho the forum rules here seem to say: "Stick to basic politness or your post will get moderated." This is in my opinion also very effective to keep discussion on topic instead of spiraling down into mud-slinging contests. So I don't think that the rules in that department are too restrictive.

I also feel that the moderator do in general a good job at putting the rules into practice, acting with sound judgment.

As to the bittervetting, it kind'a can be disheartening for those that feel enthusiastic about EVE. Yet, I think it's a reflection on the staten of the game. Then again, it'd be nice to to not have it in all threads, so maybe estabish some 'bittervet-free zones' or a dedicated 'bittervetting zone'?
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Desiderya

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #53 on: 06 Aug 2014, 10:36 »

Who was the one saying sth about skirting around the rules when it comes to insults? Sounds like we hit a jackpot with it after all.
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Havohej

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #54 on: 06 Aug 2014, 10:38 »

Why the fuck are you all talking about chatsubo instead of talking about improvements for this forum/community?
This.
I think that a good precursor to discussing the rules as they are is remembering and understanding the reasons and intentions behind them.  It was inevitable, then, that discussing the genesis of this forum would include discussing what happened on that forum - because what happened on that forum was the genesis of this forum.

Who was the one saying sth about skirting around the rules when it comes to insults? Sounds like we hit a jackpot with it after all.
Not sure what you're saying, here.

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Louella Dougans

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #55 on: 06 Aug 2014, 12:03 »

Why should anyone care about this Patrick Stewart actor? Everyone knows Laurence Olivier was the best actor in Shakespearean plays.


see when people are talking about "noobs thinking something is great", while to veterans, it's a "tired cliche that has been done before".

what they're doing is saying that because Laurence Olivier was in a production of Hamlet, then Ian McKellen, or Patrick Stewart, shouldn't be in a production of Hamlet.
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Desiderya

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #56 on: 06 Aug 2014, 12:31 »

Who was the one saying sth about skirting around the rules when it comes to insults? Sounds like we hit a jackpot with it after all.
Not sure what you're saying, here.
That Lyn Farel's post is not helpful and sounds like it's written by a pretentious cunt, and not Lyn Farel, because it's using veiled attacks that do not cross the rules against basically everyone who disagrees with the status quo on this particular aspect of the rules.
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Havohej

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #57 on: 06 Aug 2014, 12:44 »

Who was the one saying sth about skirting around the rules when it comes to insults? Sounds like we hit a jackpot with it after all.
Not sure what you're saying, here.
That Lyn Farel's post is not helpful and sounds like it's written by a pretentious cunt, and not Lyn Farel, because it's using veiled attacks that do not cross the rules against basically everyone who disagrees with the status quo on this particular aspect of the rules.
And ModDisc has historically been a board with somewhat relaxed enforcement (unofficially) because of a need for candor.  In other words, we tend to let things go a bit more here, largely because we don't want to be moderating posts expressing opinions about how we do things lest discussion of how we do things be discouraged. Muthafuckas be gettin' emotional 'bout dese forums, yo.  Let's not derail the thread with it, though.
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Desiderya

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #58 on: 06 Aug 2014, 12:46 »

Agreed. Let's talk about Chatsubo and how bad it was in the end.
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Havohej

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Re: It's been 4 years.
« Reply #59 on: 06 Aug 2014, 12:47 »

Agreed. Let's talk about Chatsubo and how bad it was in the end.
With an eye toward how that shaped the rules as they exist here, sure.  Except we've pretty much already done that.  Who's being a cunt now?  Stop and be constructive, or dick off.
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